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THE 



PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 



(AUTHORISED EDITION), 



fourth: series. 

Being the Sixth Session of the Twenty-sixth Parliament 

OF the 

UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BEITAIN AND IRELAND. 



63 VICTORIA. 



VOLUME LXXYII. 

COMPRISING THE PERIOD FROM THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF OCTOBER 

TO THE TWFJH'Y- SEVENTH DAY OF OCTOBER 

AND 

THE INDEX FOR THE SESSION. 



PRINTED AND PUBLISHED, 

VNDES CONTRACT WITH HEIl UAJESTY'S STATIONEKY OFFICE, 

BY 

WYMAN AND SONS, LIMITED, FETTER LANE, LONDON, 

1899. 



Chronology of " The Parliamentary Debates. 



n 



THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY contains all that can be collected of the Legislative 
History of this country from the Conquest to the close of the XVIIItli Century (1803), 36 vols. 
The chief sources whence these Debates are derived are the Constitutional History, 24 vols. ; 
Sir Simonds D' Ewes' Journal ; Debates of the Commons in 1620 and 1621 ; Chandler and 
Timberland's Debates, 22 vols. ; Grey's Debates of the Commons, from 1667 to 1694, 10 vols. ; 
Almon*s Debates, 24 vols. ; Debrett s Debates, 63 vols. ; The Hardwicke Papers ; Debates in 
Parliament by Dr. Johnson, &c., &c. 

THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES commence with the year 1803, and the contents are 
«et forth in the follo>ving Chronological Table : — 



HISTORY. 
CONQUEST to 34 GEO. II.-1066 to 1760. 

Vol. 1 to 15, 1 Will. L to 34 Geo. II. 

1066-1760 

BEIGN OF GEORGE III. -1760 to 1820. 

Vol. 15 to 35, 1 Geo. III. to 40 Geo. III. 

1760-1800 

(First Parliament.) 

Vol. 35 41 Geo. Ill 1801 

— 36 42 — 1802 

(Second Parliament.) 
Vol. 36 42 Geo. Ill 1802-3 



DEBATES. 
First Series. 

(Second Parliament — continued.) 

Vol. 1 & 2... 44 Geo. Ill 1803-4 

— H 3 to 5. ..45 — 1805 

— 6 & 7. ..46 — 1806 

(Third Parliament.) 
Vol. 8& 9. .47 Geo. Ill 1806-7 

(Fourth Parliament.) 

Vol. 9 to 11. ..48 Geo. Ill 1807-8 

— 12 — 14. ..49 — 1809 

_ 15 _ 17. ..50 — 1810 

_ 18 — 20.. .51 — ... 1810-11 

— 21 — 23. ..52 — 1812 

(Fifth Parliament.) 

Vol. 24 to 26. ..53 Geo. III. ... 1812-13 

— 27 & 28. ..54 — ... 1813-14 

— 29 to 31. ..55 — ... 1814-15 

— 32 — 34.. .56 — 1816 

— 35 & 36.. .57 — 1817 

— 37 — 38. ..58 — 1818 



(Sixth Parliament.) 

Vol. 39 & 40... 59 Geo. Ill 1819 

— 41 60 — ... 1819-20 

Second Series, 

REIGN OF GEORGE IV.-1820 to 1830. 

(Seventh Parliament.) 

Vol 1 to 3... 1 Geo. IV 1820 

— 4 & 5... 2 — 1821 

_ 6— 7... 3 — 1822 

_ 8— 9... 4 — 1823 

— 10 — 11... 5 — 1824 

— 12 — 13... 6 — 1825-6 

_ U_ 15... 7 _ 1826 

(Eighth Parliament.) 

Vol 16 7 Geo. IV 1826 

— 17 8 — 1827 

— 18 & 19... 9 — 1828 

— 20— 21. ..10 — 1829 

— 22 to 25. ..11 — 1830 

Ttiird Series. 
REIGN OF WILLIAM IV.-1830 to 1837. 

(Ninth Parliament.) 
VoL 1 to 3... 1 Will. IV 1830-1 

(Tenth Parliament.) 

Vol. 4 to 8... 2 Will. IV 1831 

— 9— 14... 3 — 1832 

(Eleventh Parliament.) 

Vol. 15 to 20... 4 Will. IV 1833 

— 21 — 25... 5 — 1834 

(Twelfth Parliament.) 

Vol. 26 to 30... 6 Will. IV. 1835 

— 31 — 35... 7 — 1836 

— 36 — 38... 8 — 1837 

a 2 



1 Y 



CHRONOLOGY OF "THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES "—cont. 



Vol. 



REIQN OF VICTORIA-1837 to 

(Thirteenth Parliament.) 

39 to 44... 1 Victoria 1838 



45 — 50... 2 
51 — 55... 3 
56— 58... 4 



1839 

1840 

(a) 1841 



(Fourteenth Parliament.) 



Vol. 



59 

60 to 65... 
66— 71... 
72— 76... 
77 — 82... 
83 — 88... 



4 Victoria (b) 1841 



5 
6 
7 
8 
9 



__ 89— 94. ..10 — 



1842 

1843 

1844 

1845 

1846 

(a) 1847 



(Fifteenth Parliament.) 
Vol. 95 10 Victoria (b) 1847 



96 to 101. ..11 
102— 107. ..12 
108— 113. ..13 
114_118...14 
119— 122. ..15 



1848 

1849 

1850 

1851 

(a) 1852 



(Sixteenth Parliament.) 
Vol.123 15 Victoria (b) 1852 



124 to 129. ..16 
130— 135. ..17 
136— 139. ..18 
140— 143. ..19 
144 20 



1853 

1854 

1855 

1856 

(a) 1857 



(Seventeenth Parliament.) 

Vol. 145 to 147... 20 Victoria (b) 1857 

_ 148— 151. ..21 — 1858 

— 152— 153. ..22 — (a) 1859 

(Eighteenth Parliament.) 

Vol. 154 to 155. ..22 Victoria (b) 1859 

— 1860 

— 1861 

— 1862 

— 1863 

— 1864 

— 1865 



156 —160. ..23 
161 —164.. .24 
165— 168. ..25 
169— 172. ..26 
173— 176. ..27 
177— 180. ..28 



(Nineteenth Parliament.) 

Vol. 181 to 184... 29 Victoria 1866 

_ 185— 189. ..30 — 1867 

— 190— 193. ..31 — ...1867-8 

(Twentieth Parliament.) 

Vol. 194 to 198.. .32 ViCTORU ... 1868-9 

— 199— 203. ..33 — 1870 



(Twentieth Parliament — cont,) 

Vol. 204 to 208... 34 Victoria 1871 

— 209— 213. ..35 — 1872- 

_ 214— 217. ..36 — 1873 

(Twenty-First Parliament.) 



Vol. 218 to 221 

— 222—226 

— 227 —231 

— 232—236 

— 237—242 

— 243—249 

— 250 & 251 



.37 Victoria 

.38 — 

.39 — 

.40 — 

.41 — 

.42 — 

.43 — 



1874 

1875- 

1876 

1877 

1878 

.. 1878-9 
(a) 1880- 



(Twenty-Second Parliament.) 
Vol. 252 to 256... 43 Victoria (b) 1880- 



257— 265. ..44 
266— 273. ..45 
274 & 275. ..45 
276 to 283... 46 
284— 292. ..47 
293— 301... 48 



1881 

(a) 1882 

(b) 1882- 

1883 

1884 

.. 1884-5. 



(Twenty-Third Parliament. 
Vol. 302 to 307... 49 Victoria (a) 1886. 

(Twenty- Fourth Parliament. ) 
Vol. 308 & 309... 49 Victoria (b) 1886 



310 to 321. ..50 
322 —332. ..51 
333 _ 340... 52 
341 _348...53 
349_356...54 



1887 
...1888- 
...1889 
...1890 
1890-1 



Fourth Series. 



(Twenty-Fourth Parli anient — cant.) 
Vol. 1 to 6. ..55 Victoria 1892 

(Twenty-Fifth Parliament.) 

Vol. 7 56 Victoria 1892 

— 8 to 21. ..57 — ... 1893-4 

— 22— 29. ..57 — 1894 

— 30— 35.. .58 — 1895 

(Twenty-Sixth Parliament.) 

Vol. 36 59 Victoria 1895 

— ... 1895-6 



37 to 44... 59 
45— 52. ..60 
53— 65. ..61 
66— 76. ..62 
77 63 



1897 
1898 
1891> 
189^ 




HER MAJESTY'S PRINCIPAL OFFICERS 

OF STATE, Etc. 



THE CABINET. 

Prime Minister and Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs Most Hon. the Marquess of 

Salisbury, K.G. 

Lord President of the Council His Gi*ace the Duke of Devonshire, K.G. 

Lord Chancellor Rt. Hon. Earl of Halsbury. 

Lord Privy Seal Rt. Hon. Viscount Cross, G.C.B., G. C.S.I. 

First Lord of the Treasury Rt. Hon. ARTHUR J. Balfour. 

Secretaries of State 

Home Department Rt. Hon. Sir Matthew White Ridley, Bt. 

Colonial Rt. Hon. Joseph Chamberlain. 

War Most Hon. Marquess of Lansdowne, K.G. 

India Rt. Hon. Lord George Hamilton. 

Chancellor of the Exchequer Rt. Hon. Sir Michael Hicks Beach, Bt. 

First Lord of the Admiralty Rt. Hon. George Joachim Goschen. 

Lord Lieutenant of Ireland Rt. Hon. Earl Cadogan, K.G. 

Lord Chancellor of Ireland Rt. Hon. Lord Ashbourne. 

President of the Board of Trade Rt. Hon. Charles Thomson Ritchie. 

Secretary for Scotland Rt. Hon. Lord Balfour of Burleigh. 

President of the Local Government Board Rt. Hon. Henry Chaplin. 

Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Rt. Hon. Lord James of Hereford. 

First Commissioner of Works Rt. Hon. A. Akers Douglas. 

President of the Board of Agriculture Rt. Hoto. Walter H. Long. 

NOT IN THE CABINET. 

Postmaster-General Duke of Norfolk. 

Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury Sir W. Walrond, M.P. 

Financial Secretary to the Treasury Rt. Hon. R. W. Hanbury, M. P. 

Chief Secretary for Ireland Rt. Hon. Gerald Balfour, M.P. 

Vice-President of the Committee of Council Rt. Hon. Sir J. GORST, M.P. 

Secretary to the Admiralty W. E. Ellison Macartney, Esq., M.P. 

TH. T. Anstruther, Esq., M.P. 
William Hayes Fisher, Esq., M.P. 
Lord Stanley, M.P. 
(Admiral Sir F. W. Richards, G.C.B. 
Vice- Admiral Sir F. G. D. Bedpokd, K.C.B. 
Rear- Admiral A. K. Wilson, V.C, C.B. 
Capt. A, W. Moore, C.B., C.M.G. 
^J. A. Chamberlain, Esq., M.P. 

Parliamentary Secretary, Foreign Office Rt. Hon. W. St. John Brodrick, M.P. 

Parliamentary Secretary, Home Office Rt. Hon. Jesse Collings, M.P. 

Parliamentary Secretary, Colonial Office Earl of Selborne. 

Parliamentary Secretary, India Office Earl of Onslow. 

Parliamentary Secretary, War Office George Wyndham, Esq., M.P. 

Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Twuie Eaj\ of Dudley. 

Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board T. W. Russell, Esq., M.P. 

Financial Secretary, War Office J. Powell- Williams, Esq., M.P. 

Attorney -General Sir Richard Webster, Q.C, M.P. 

Solicitor-General Sir R. B. Finlay, Q.C, M.P. 



Lords of the Treasury- 



Lords of the Admiralty- 



vi HER MAJESTY'S PRINCIPAL OFFICERS OF STATE.— (Con/.) 

OTHER OFFICERS OF STATE. 

Judge Advocate-General Rt. Hon. Sir F. H. Jeune, K.C.B., President Probate, Divorce, 

and Admiralty Courts. 

Lord Chamberlain Earl of HOPETOUN. 

Vice-Chamberlain Hon. Ailwyn Fellowes, M.P. 

Lord Steward Earl of Pembroke. 

Master of the Horse Duke of Portland. 

Paymaster-General Duke of Marlborough. 

Comptroller of the Household Viscount Valentia, M.P. 

Treasurer of the Household Viscount CURZON, M.P. 

Master of the Buckhounds Earl of Coventry, 

Captain Yeoman of the Guard Earl Waldegrave. 

(General Viscount Bridport (permanent). 
Earl of KiNTORE. 
Earl of Denbigh. 
Lord Churchill. 
Lord Harris. 
Lord Lawrence. 
Earl of Clarendon. 
Lord Bagot. 

SCOTLAND. 

Chief Secretary Lord Balfour of Burleigh. 

Lord Justice-General Rt. Hon. J. P. B. Robertson. 

Lord Advocate Rt. Hon. A. G. Murray, Q.C, M.P. 

Lord Justice Clerk Rt. Hon. Lord Kinsburgh, C.B. 

Lord Clerk Register Duke of Montrose, K.T. 

Lord High Commissioner Earl of Leven and Melville. 

Solicitor-General Charles Scott-Dickson, Esq., Q.C. 

IRELAND. 

Lord Lieutenant Earl Cadogan. 

Lord Chancellor Lord Ashbourne. 

Chief Secretary Rt. Hon. Gerald Balfour, M.P 

Under Secretary Sir David Harrel, K.C.B. 

Attorney-General Rt. Hon. J. Atkinson, M.P. 

Solicitor-General D. P. Barton, Esq., Q.C, M.P. 



PRINCIPAL OFFICERS OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS. 

Chairman of Committees Rt. Hon. Earl of Morley. 

Clerk of Parliaments Henry J. L. Graham, Esq., C.B. 

Deputy Clerk of Parliaments (Clerk Assistant) Hon. E. P. Thesiger, C.B. 

Readins-Clerk and Clerk of Outdoor Committees Merton A. Thoms, Esq. 

Coansei to the Chairman of Committees Albert Gray, Esq. 

Chief aerk and Clerk of Public Bills H. C. Malkin, Esq. 

Senior Clerks 

Clerk of Private Bills, and Taxing Officer of Private Bill Costs R W. Monro, Esq. 

Peers' Printed Paper Office A. Harrison, Esq. 

Principal Clerk, Judicial Department, and Taxing Officer of Judicial Costs E. F. 

Taylor, Esq. 

Clerk of the Journals W. A. Leigh, Esq. 

Other Clerks J. F. Symons-Jeune, Esq. (Principal Clerk of Private Committees) ; F. 

Skene, Esq. ; W. H. Hamilton Gordon, Esq. ; C. L. Anstruthkk, Esq. (Clerk attend- 
ing the Table) ; Hon. A. McDonnell ; A. H. Robinson, Esq. ; H. P. St. John, Esq. ; 

V. M. Biddulph, Esq. ; Hon. E. A. Stonor ; H. J. F. Badeley, Esq. ; C. Hbadlam, 

Esq. ; J. B. Hotham, Esq. 

Accountant G. Fulkes, Esq. 

Copyist Mr. T. A. C* »urt ; Assistant Copyist Mr. H. P. Norris. 

Messengers Messrs. W. Worfell, A. A. Worfell, C. E. Cuizlett, A. N. Stoll, J. W. F. 

Locke, J. McMillan, G. Bennett. 
Librarian— — S. Arthur Strong, Esq. 

Assistant Librarian A. H. M. Butler, Esq. 

Messenger Mr. W. H. G. Strevens. 

Examiners for Standing Orders C. W. Campion, Esq. ; Merton A. Thoms, Esq. ; Clerk 

J. W. G. Bond, Esq. 

Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod Gen. Sir Michael A. S. Biddulph, G.C.B. 

Yeoman Usher Captain T. D. Butlkr. 

Serjeant-at-Arms Major-General Sir Arthur Elus, K.C.V.0 , C.S.L 



HER MAJESTY'S PRINCIPAL OFFICERS OF STATE.— (Caji^.) vi 

PRINCIPAL OFFICERS OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.— ((7on^) 

Deputy Serjeant-at-Arms S. Hand, Esq. 

Resident Superintendent Mr. J. K. Williams. 

Shorthand Writer W. H. GuRNEY Salter, Esq. 

Principal Doorkeepers Messrs. W. Chandler, £. Fox, F. Holman. 

First Class Assistants Messrs. C. Walker, J. Hedley, J. Lane. 

Second Class Assistants Messrs. B. Gallop, H. B. Strevens, G. W. Cross, W. Stopp. 

Third Class Assistants Messrs. J. WoOLACOTT, A. A. Edney, J. F. Baum. 

Messengers Messrs. A. J. Solman, J. B. Forsyth, C. Chapman, W. Phillips, 

W. W. Meates. 

Superintendent of Refreshment Rooms Mr. William Aggas. 

Inspector of Police attending the House of Lords Mr. T. Kendrick. 



PRINCIPAL OFFICERS OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS. 

Clerk of the House of Commons Sir Reginald Palgrave, K.C.B. 

Clerk- Assistant Archibald Milman, Esq., C.B. 

Second Clerk -Assistant Francis Jenkinson, Esq., C.B. 

Principal Clerks 

Public Bill Office, and Clerk of Fees W. A. Ferguson -Davie, Esq., C.B. 

Clerk of the Journals W. H. Ley, Esq. 

Committee Office R. Dickinson, Esq. 

Private Bill Office J. H. W. Someuset, Esq. 

Senior Clerks W. Gibbons, Esq. ; F. St. George Tupper, Esq. ; H. C. Tower, Esq. ; 

C. V. FrERE, Esq. ; L. T. Le MaRCHANT, Esq. ; G. E. GiFFARD, Esq. 

Assistant Clerks A. W. Nicholson, Esq. ; Sir E. H. Doyle, Bart. ; S. L. Simeon, Esq. ; 

Arthur L Dasent, Esq.; E. C. Howe Browne, Esq.; Horace West, Esq.; Henry 

A. P'ERGUSON-Davie, Esq. ; ARTHUR H. Ellis, Esq. ; PERCY A. BULL, Esq. ; F. R. 

Williams W^ynn, Esq.; W. E. Grey, Esq.; F. C. Holland, Esq. 
Junior Clerks J. W. G. Bond, Esq.; T. L. Webster, Esq.; H. C. Dawkins, Esq.; A. F. B. 

Williams, Esq. ; R. P. Colomb, Esq. ; B. H. Fell, Esq. ; R. E. Childers, Esq. ; J. Scott 

Porter, Esq.; F. C. Bramwell, Esq.; R. A. Austen Leigh, Esq.; W. T. Legge, Esq.; 

C. R Turner, Esq. 

Collectors of Fees on Private Bills C. L. Lockton, Esq. 

Shorthand Writer W. H. GuRNEY Salter, Esq. 

Office Clerk in Committee Office Mr. T. Feilden Mitchell. 

Office Clerk in Journal Office Mr. A. A. Taylor. 

Messengers Messrs. J J. Shelvey, C. Davie, W. Quantrill, H. Jones, G. D. Wellfji, 

J. Armstrong, J. Woodward, J. Ivory, G. Norman. 

Serjeant-at-Arms H. D. Erskinb, Esq. 

Dei>aty Serjeant F. R. Gosset, Esq. 

Assistant Serjeant Lieut. -Col. Hon. E. H. Legoe. 

Doorkeepers Mr. W. Wilson, Mr. M. Inglefield. 

Office Messenger Mr. C. J. H. Shearn. 

Messengers (1st Class) Mr. H. Hambling, Mr. C. Woodcraft, Mr. R. Robertson, Mr. 

J. Hills, Mr. J. Sprague, Mr. A. Andrews, Mr. T. B. Spray, Mr. G. Tye, Mr. G. 

Mills, Mr. R. Hobby, Mr. G. Anstey. 
Messengers (2nd Class) Messrs. J. H. Day, J. Henderson, G. Wainwrioht, J. Foreman, 

J. GuYATT, R. Turtle, A. Haskell, A. C. Johnson. 
Superintendent of Members* Waiting Room Mr. J. F. Henlet ; Assistant Mr. W. 

Broadbent ; Porters Messrs J. Oram, T. Martin. 

Postmaster Mr. Edmund W. Pike ; Hall Keeper Mr. J. Glynn. 

Office Keeper Mr. W". Harvey. 

Chaplain to the House Rev. Canon Basil Wilberforce, D.D. 

Secretary to the Speaker Edward Gully, Esq. 

Counsel to the Speaker Hon. E. Chandos Leigh, Q.C, C.B. 

Trainbearer Mr. J. Frinch. 

Messenger Mr. G. T. Viney. 

Referee of Private Bills Alfred Bonham Carter, Esq. 

Examiners of Private Bills C. W. Campion, Esq., Merton A. Thoms, Esq. 

Taxing Master C. W. Campion, Esq. ; Clerk J. W. G. Bond, Esq. 

Librarian R. C. Walpole, Esq. ; Assistant Librarian E. G. Harvey, Esq. ; Clerks in 

Library Messrs. J. R. Crimp, Wm. Stewart ; Messengers Messrs. A. Firmin, 

W. Hague. 
Vote Office 

Chief Clerk H. A. M. Killick, Esq. 

Assistant Clerks P. E. Smith, Esq , H. Otway Mayne, Esq, 

Printers 

Journals G. E. Briscoe Eyre, Esq. 

Votes J. B. N CHOLS, Esq. 

Chief Inspector of Police attending the House of Commons Mr. HoRSLEY. 



AN ALPHABETICAL LIST 



OF THE 



LOEDS SPIRITUAL AND TEIPOEAL 



IN THE 



Sixth Session of the Twenty-sixth Parliament 



OF 



THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND. 



63 VICTORIA 1899. 



Abercorn, James Marquess of. {Duke of 
Ahercorn) 

Abercromby, George Ralph Lord 

Aberdare, Henry Campbell Lord 

Abergavenny, William Marquess of 

Abingdon, Montagu Arthur Earl of 

Abinger, James York MacGregor Lord 

Acton, John Emerich Edward Lord 

Addington, Egerton Lord 

Ailesbury, Henry Augustus Marquess of 

Ailsa, Archibald Marquess of 

Airlie, David Stanley William Earl of- 
{Elected for Scotland) 

Albany, His Royal Highness Leopold 
Charles Edward Geo. Albert Duke of 

Albemarle, Arnold Allan Cecil Earl of 

Aldenham, Henry Hucks Lord 

Alington, Henry Gerard Lord 

Amherst, William Archer Earl 

Amherst of Hackney, William Amhurst 




Ampthill, Arthur Oliver Villiers Lord 

Ancaster, Gilbert Henry Earl of 

Anglesey, Henry Cyril Marquess of 

Annaly, Luke Lord 

Annesley, Hugh Earl. {Elected for 
Ireland) 

Ardilaun, Arthur Edward Lord 

Argyll, George Douglas Duke of 

Armstrong, William George Lord 

Arundell of Wardour, John Francis Lord 

Ashbourne, Edward Lord 

Ashbumham, Bertram Earl of 

Ashburton, Francis Denzil Edward Lord 

Ashcombe, George Lord 

Ashton, James Lord 

Auckland, William Morton Lord 

Aylesford, Charles Wightwick Earl of 



Bagot, William Lord 
Balinhard, James Lord. 



{Earl of Smithesk) 



X ALPa.\BEnC.\L LLST OF THE 

BaJfcmr of Burleigii, Alexaiider Hugb Erougbam and Vanx. Henir Charies Lord 

I»ni (EhH^dJorSrrAUiwJf Brownioir, Adelben Wellingtoo Brown- 

Batidoii, Jamet Fraijcis Eari of. (EUd*^i low Eari 

>r /r//<ir*^/; Buckmghamshire, Sidner Carr Eari of 

Bangor Henij WiJJiam Croebie Viscount Bui^clere, Herbert Coillstoim Loid 

^ , -- , ,' T 1 Barton, 3lichael Arthnr Lord 

Barnard. Henrv de \ere Lord „ t i ^ . i %, 

^ . ^, ' w - , , , Bute, John Patnck Marquess of 

Basing. Cjreorge Limbrev IjoM ^ ^ t« j - %_ ^»-ii- t _j 

« ,1'..'.. r. ' w , Brron, George Frederick William Loid 

Bateman. AN illiani Bateman Ixird . " 

Bath and Welbs, Geo. W'vudham Bishop of 

Bath, Thomaj* Henrv Marquess of q 

BathuFKt Seymour Henry Earl ' ^ , ^ „ „ . 

_ a/ ., r , Cadogan, George Henrv Eari 

Battersea, Cynl Ixird n . tt i ▼ i t^ ■ 

^ . 11 •... ,. , Cairns, Herbert John Earl 

Beauchamp, \\ illjam r^rl i-^ , , * ^ , ^ . ^ , 

•n , rr ^m i t^. t^ , , Oaltfaorpe, Augustus Cholmondelev Lord 

Beaufort, Henry Cfiarles titzroy Duke of ^ , .j t^ t^ i »t. i^ V. 

T> ir 1 ir I I « 1 T. 1 ^ Cambridge, His Roval Highness George 

Bedford, f lerbrand Arthur lAike of William Frederick Charles Duke of 

^'Ty^L/^?/>rS^^ ^^^^ ""^ Camden, John Charles Manjuess 

-.. , ' , , , , Camoys, Ralph Francis Julian Lord 

Belper, Henry Ufni .. , t> i .j t^.i. ti i 

r. , , ,, , , ., . rn. L' 1 r Camperdo\-n, Robert Adam Phihps Hal- 

Berkeley, Iwndal MifWinuy I honian h^rl of ^jj^ £apj ^f 

Berwick, Richarrl H.^riry i.ord Canterbury, Frederick Archbishop of 

Blythsw^KMl, Arr-fiib/ild CumitUtW Ixml ! Canterbury, Henr^- Charles Viscount 

Bolingbrokij and St. .loliii, Henry Vis- Ckrew, Kol>ert Shapland George Julian 
cfiunt i Lor^i 

Bolton, William Tlioinaa Lord I Carleton, Richard Henry Lord. {Earl of 

Boston, Geor^ij Florancuj l>ord Sluuin/m) 

Botreaux, Charl<i« Ivlward Hastings Lord, Carlisle, George James Earl of 
(Earl of IjjutloiiH) Carlisle, John Wareing Bishop of 

Bowes, Claude Lord. {Karl of Slralhr , Carnarvon, George Edward Stanhope 
nwre an/l Kiuf/lu/ra) I Molyneux Earl of 

Boyle, Richard l'>hnijnd St. I^awrence Carnwath, Ro>>ert Harris Camwath Ear! 
Lord. (Earl of Cork aiul Orrery) \ of. (ElecM jar Scotland) 

Brabourne, Edward Lord Cam'ngton, Charles Robert Earl 

Bradford, George Cecil Orlando P]arl of \ Carysfort, William Lord. {Earl of Catys- 

Brampton, Henry Lord | /^v 

Castlemaine, Albert Edward Lord. 
(Elected for Irelaml) 

Castletown, Bernard p]dward Bamaby 
Lord 



Brancepeth, Gustavus KuHsell Lord. (Vm- 
count Boyne) 



Brandon, Alfred Douglas Duke of 
Brassey, Thomas JiOrd 
Braybrooke, Charles Cornwallis Lonl 
Braye, Alfred TliomaH TownHheiid Lonl 
Breadalbane, Gavin ManjuoHH of 
Bridpoit, Alexander Nelson Viscount 
Bristol, Fredk. William John Marquess of 

Brodrick, William Jjord. (Viscount 

Mvlldon) 

Brooke, Francis Kichanl Charles Guy 
Earl, and Karl of Warwick 



Cathcart, Alan Frederick Earl 

Cawdor, Frederick Archibald Vaughan 
Earl 

Chaworth, Reginald Lord. (Earl of 
Me4dh) 

Chelmsford, Frederic Augustus Lord 

Chesham, Charles Compton William 
Lord 

Chester, Francis John Bishop of 

Chesterfield, Edwyn Francis Earl of 



LORDS SPIRITUAL 

Cheylesmore, William Meriton Lord 

Chichester, Walter John Earl of 

Chichester, Ernest Ronald Bishop of 

Cholmondeley, George Henry Hugh 
Marquess of 

Churchill, Victor Albert Francis Charles 
Lord 

Churston, John Lord 

Clancarty, William Frederick Viscount. 
{Earl of Clancarty) 

Clanwilliam, Richard James Lord. {Earl 
of Clanwilliam) 

Clarendon, Edward Hyde Earl of 

Clements, Charles Lord. {Earl of Leitnm) 

Clifford of Chudleigh, Lewis Henry Hugh 
Lord 

Clifton, Edward Henry Stuart Lord 
{Earl of Darnley) 

Clinton, Charles Henry Rolle Lord 

Clonbrock, Luke Gerald Lord. {Elected 
for Ireland) 

Cloncurry, Valentine Frederick Lord 

Cobham, Charles George Viscount 

Colchester, Reginald Charles Edward 
Lord 

Coleridge, Bernard John Seymour Lord 

Colville of Culross, Charles John Lord 

Combermere, Francis Lynch Wellington 
Viscount 

Congleton, Henry Lord 

Con naught and Strathearn, His Royal 
Highness Arthur William Patrick 
Albert Duke of 

Connemara, Robert Lord 

Cottenham, Kenelm Charles Edward 
Earl of 

Cottesloe, Thomas Francis Lord 

Coventry, George William Earl of 

Cowley, Henry Arthur Momington Earl 

Cowper, Francis Thomas de Grey Earl 

Cranbrook, Gathome Earl of 

Cranworth, Robert Thornhaugh Lord 

Craven, William George Robert Earl of 

Crawshaw, Thomas Lord 

Crewe, Robert Offley Ashburton Earl of 

Crofton, Edward Henry Churchill Lord* 
{Elected f 01' Ireland) 

Cromer, Evelyn Viscount 



AND TEMPORAL. 



XI 



Cross, Richard Assheton Viscount. {Lord 
Privy Seal) 

Cumberland and Teviotdale, His Royal 
Highness Ernest Augustus William 
Adolphus George Frederick Duke of 

Currie, Philip Henry Wodehouse Lord 



D 

Dartmouth, William Heneage Earl of 

Dartrey, Vesey Earl of 

Davey, Horace Lord. {A Lord of Appeal 
in Oidinary) 

Dawnay, Hugh Richard Lord. {Viscount 
Downe) 

De Clifford, Jack Southwell Lord 

De Freyne, Arthur Lord 

De La Warr, Gilbert George Reginald 
Earl 

De L'Isle and Dudley, Philip Lord 

De Mauley, William Ashley Webb Lord 

de Montalt, Cornwallis Earl 

De Ramsey, William Henry Lord 

de Ros, Dudley Charles Lord 

De Saumarez, James St. Vincent Lord 

de Vesci, John Robert William Lord. 
{Viscount de Vesci) 

Delamere, Hugh Lord 

Denbigh, Rudolph Robert Basil Aloysius^ 
Augustine Earl of 

Denman, Thomas Lord 

Deramore, Robert Wilfrid Lord 

Derby, Frederick Arthur Earl of 

Derwent, Harcourt Lord 

Devon, Henry Hugh Earl of 

Devonshire, Spencer Compton Duke of. 
{Lord President of the Council) 

Digby, Edward Henry Trafalgar Lord 

Dinevor, Arthur de Cardonnel Lord 

Doncaster, William Henry Walter Earl 
of. {Dtike of Buccleuch and Queens- 
berry) 

Dormer, John Baptist Joseph Lord 

Douglas, Charles Alexander Lord. {Earl 
of Home) 

Ducie, Henry John Earl of 

Dudley, William Humble Earl of 

Dufferin and Ava, Frederick Temple 
Marqtiess of 



Xil 



ALPHABETICAL LIST OF THE 



Dunalley, Henry O'Callaghan Lord. 
{Elected fi/r Ireland) 

Dundonald, Douglas Mackinnon Baillie 
Hamilton Larl of. {Elected for 
Scotland) 

Dunleath, Henry Lyle Lord 

Dunmore, Charles Adolphus Lord. {Earl 
of Dunmoi'e) 

Dunning, John Loixi. {Lard Rollo) 

Durham, John George Eiirl of 

Durham, Brooke Foss Bishop of 



Khnry, Robert \Vellesley Lord 

Kdinhui'gh, His Koyal Highness Alfred 
KrnoHt Albert Duko of 

KftlnAjhum, lltMiry Ale.xander Gordon 
V^\\\ of 

K^'t^rton, Wilbraluini Karl 

Khion, John Vaw\ of 

Kl^in, Victor Alexander Lord. {Earl of 
KUjin and Kincardine) 

Klh»nbon)\igh, Charles Towry Hamilton 
Lonl 

mioHinero, Francis Chjis. Granville Earl of 

Klphinstono, Sidney Herbert Lord 

Kly, Alwyno Bishop of 

Kmly, Thomas William Gaston Lord 

Krskine, William Macnaghten Lord 

Kshor, William Baliol Viscount 

Essex, George Devoreux de Vere Earl of 

Ettrick, William John George Lord. 
{Lard Napier) 

Exeter, William Thomas Brownlow Mar- 
quess of 

Exeter, Edward Henry Bishop of 

Exmouth, Edward Fleetwood John Vis- 
count 



Fairlie, David Lord. {Earl of Glasgow) 

Falkland, Byron Plantagenet Viscount. 
{Elected for Scotland) 

Falmouth, Evelyn Edward Thomas Vis- 
count 

Famham, Somerset Henry Lord. {Elected 
for Ireland) 



Farquhar, Horace Brand Lord 

Farrer, Thomas Henry Lord 

Fermanagh, John Henry Lord. {Earl 
Erne) 

Ferrers, Sewallis Edward Earl 

Feversham, William Ernest Earl of 

Field, William Ventris Lord 

Fife, Alexander William George Duke of 

Fingall, Arthur James Francis Lord. 
{Earl of Fingall) 

Fisherwick, George Augustus Hamilton 
Lord. {Marquess of Donegall) 

Fitzhardinge, Charles Paget Fitzhardinge 
Lord 

Fitzwilliam, William Thomas Spencer 
Earl 

Foley, Henry Thomas Lord 

Forbes, Horace Courtenay Gammell Lord. 
{Elected for Scotland) 

Forester, Cecil Theodore Lord 

Fortescue, Hugh Earl 

Foxford, William Henry Edmond de Vere 
Sheaffe Lord. {Earl of Limerick) 



I 



Gage, Henry Charles Lord. {Viscount 
Gage) 

Gainsborough, Charles William Francis 
Earl of 

Gardner, Lord 

Gerard, William Cansfield Lord 

Gifford, Edric Frederick Lord 

Glanusk, Joseph Russell Lord 

Glenesk, Algernon Lord 

Gloucester, Charles John Bishop of 

Gordon, John Campbell Viscount. {Earl 
of Aberdeen) 

Gormanston, Jenico William Joseph Lord. 
{Viscount Gormanston) 

Gough, Hugh Viscount 

Grafton, Augustus Chas. Lennox Duke of 

Graham, Douglas Beresford Malise Ronald 
Earl. {Vuke of Montrose) 

Granard, Bernard Arthur William Patrick 
Hastings Lord. (Earl of Granard) 

Grantley, John Richard Brinsley Lord 

Granville, Granville George Earl 

Greville, Algernon William Fulke Lord 

Grey, Albert Henry George Earl 



LORDS SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL. 



xiu 



Grey de Ruthyn, Eawdon George Grey 
Lord 

Grimthorpe, Edmund Lord 

Grinstead, Lowry Egerton Lord. (Earl 
of Enniskillen) 

Guilford, Frederick George Earl of 

Gwydir, Peter Robert Lord 



H 

Haddington, George Earl of. {Elected for 
Scotland) 

Haldon, Lawrence Hesketh Lord 

Haliburton, Arthur Lawrence Lord 

Halifax, Charles Lindley Viscount 

Halsbury, Hardinge Stanley Earl of. 
(Lord High Clumcellor) 

Hamilton of Dalzell, John Glencairn 
Carter Lord 

Hampden, Henry Robert Viscount 

Hampton, Herbert Perrott Murray Lord 

Hardinge, Henry Charles Viscount 

Hardwicke, Albert Edward Philip Henry 
Earl of 

Hare, William Lord. (Earl of Listowel) 

Harewood Henry L^lick Earl of 

Harlech, William Richard Lord 

Harrington, Charles Augustus Earl of 

Harris, George Robert Canning Lord 

Harrowby, Dudley Francis Stewart Earl of 

Hartismere, John Major Lord. (Loi'd 
Henniker) 

Hastings, George Manners Lord 

Hatherton, Edward George Percy Lord 

Ha warden, Comwallis Viscount. (Elected 
for Ireland. ) (In another place as Earl 
de Montalt) 

Hawke, Martin Bladen Lord 

Hawkesbury, Cecil George Savile Lord 

Hay, George Lord. (Earl of KinnotU) 

Headley, Charles Mark Lord. (Ekcted 
for Ireland) 

Heneage, Edw^ard Lord 

Hereford, Robert Viscount 

Herries, Marmaduke Francis Lord 

Herschell, Farrer Lord 

Hertford, Hugh de Grey Marquess of 

Heytesbury, William Frederick Lord 



Hill, Rowland Richard Viscount 

Hillingdon, Charles William Lord 

Hillsborough, Arthur Wills John 
Wellington Trumbell Blundell Earl 
of. (Marquess of Dovmshire) 

Hindlip, Charles Lord 

Hobhouse, Arthur Lord 

Holm Patrick, Hans Wellesley Lord 

Hood, Francis Wheler Viscount 

Hood of Avalon, Arthur William Acland 
Lord 

Hopetoun, John Adrian Louis Lord. (Earl 
of Hopetoun) 

Hothfield, Henry James Lord 

Howard of Glossop, Francis Edward Lord 

Howard de Walden, Frederick George 
Lord 

Howe, Richard William Penn Earl 

Howth, William Ulick Tristram Lord. 
(Earl of Howth) 

Huntingdon, Warner Francis John Plan- 
td,genet Earl of 

Hutchinson, John Luke George Vis- 
count. (Earl of Bonoughmare) 

Hylton, Hedworth Hylton Lord 



Iddesleigh, Walter Stafford Earl of 

Ilchester, Henry Edward Earl of 

Inchiquin, Edward Donough Lord. (Elecied 
for Ireland) 

Innes-Henry John Earl. (Duke of Box- 
burghe) 

Inverclyde, John Lord 

Iveagh, Edward Cecil Lord 



James, Henry Lord 

Jersey, Victor Albert George Earl of 

K 

Keane, John Manley Arbuthnot Lord 

Kelvin, William Lord 

Kenlis, Geoffrey Thomas Lord. (Marquess? 
of Headfort) 

Kenmare, Valentine Augustus Lord. (Earl 
of Kenmare) 



XIV 



ALPHABETICAL 



Kenry, Windham Thomas Lord. {Earl 
of Dunravcn and Mount-Earl) 

Kensington, William Lord 

Kenyon, Lloyd Lord 

Ker, Schomberg Henry Lord. (Marquess 
of Lothian) 

Kesteveii, John Henry Lord 

Kilmaine, Francis William Lord. (Ekcted 
for Ireland) 

Kilmarnock, Charles Gore Lord. (Earl 
of Erroll) 

m 

Kilmorev, Francis Charles Earl of. 
(Elected for Irdand) 

Kimberley, John Karl of 

Kinnaird, Arthur Fitz-Gerald Lord 

Kinnear, Alexander Smith Lord 

Kintore, Algernon Hawkins Thomond 
Lord. (Earl of Kintore) 

Kitchener of Khartoum, Horatio Herbert 
Lord 

Knutsford, Henry Thurstan Viscount 



Lamington, Charles Wallace Alexander 
Napier Lord 

Lanesborough, John Vansittart Dan vers 
Earl of. (Elected fm- Ireland) 

Langford, Hercules Edward Lord. (Elected 
for Ireland) 

Lansdowne, Henry Charles Keith Mar- 
quess of 

Lathom, Edward George Earl of 

Lauderdale, Frederick Henry Earl of. 
(Elected fm Scotland) 

Jjawrence, John Hamilton Lord 

Leconfield, Henry Lord 

Leeds, George Godolphin Duke of 

Leicester, Thomas William Earl of 

Leigh, William Henry Lord 

Leinster, Maurice Viscount. (Duke of 
Leinster) 

Leven and MelWlle, Ronald Ruthven 
Earl of. (Elected far Scotland) 

Lichfield, Thomas Francis Earl of 

Lichfield, Augustus Bishop of 

Lilford, John Lord 

lancoin, Edward Bishop of 

Liwlsev, Montague Peregrine Albemarle 
FJa^lof 



LIST OF THE 

Lingen, Ralph Robert Wheeler Lord 

Lister, Joseph Lord 

Liverpool, John Charles Bishop of 

Llandaff, Henry Viscount 

Llandaff, Richard Bishop of 

Llangattock, John Allan Lord 

Loch, Henry Brougham Lord 

Loftus, John Henry Lord. (Marquess of 

Ely) 

Londesborough, William Henry Forester 
Earl of 

London, Mandell Bishop of 

Lonsdale, Hugh Cecil Earl of 

Lovaine, Henry George Lord. (Earl 
Percy) 

Lovat, Simon Joseph Lord 

Lovelace, Ralph Gordon Earl of 

Lovel and Holland, Augustus Arthur 
Lord. (Earl of Egmont) 

Lucan, George Earl of. (Elected for 
Ireland) 

Ludlow, Henry Charles Lord 

Lurgan, William Lord 

Lvtton, Victor Alexander George Robert 
Earl of 

Lyveden, FitzPatrick Henry Lord 



M 

Macclesfield, George Loveden William 
Henry Earl of 

Macnaghten Edward Lord. (A Lard 
of Appeal in Ordinary) 

Magheramome, James Douglas Lord 

Malcolm of Poltalloch, John Wingfield 
Lord 

Malmesbury, Edward James Earl of 

Manchester, Wm. Angus Drogo Duke of 

Manchester, James Bishop of 

Manners of Haddon, Henry John Brinsley 
Lord. (Marquess of Granhy) 

Manners, John Thomas Lord 

Mansfield, William David Earl of 

Manvers, Sydney William Herbert Earl 

Mar, John Francis Erskine 1^t\ of. 
(Elected for Scotland) 

Mar and Kellie, Walter John Francis Earl 
of. (Elected far Scotland) 

Marlborough, Charles Richd. JobnDukeof 



LORDS SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL. 



XV 



Masham, Samuel Lord 

Massy, John Thomas William Lord. 
{Elected for Irelaml) 

Mayo, Dermot Robert Wyndham Earl 
of. (Elected for Ireland) 

Meldnim, Charles Lord. (Marquess of 
Hunthf) 

Melville, Henry Viscount 

Mendip, Leopold George Frederick Lord. 
(yiscount Clifden) 

Meredvth, James Herbert Gustavus 
Meredyth Lord. (Lord Athlumiiey) 

Mcthuen, Paul Sanford Lord 

Middleton, Digby Wentworth Bayard 
Lord 

Minster, Victor George Henry Francis 
Lord. (Marquess Conyngham) 

Minto, Gilbert John Earl of 

Monck, Henry Power Charles Stanley 
Lord, (discount Monck) 

Monckton, George Edmund Milnes Lord. 
( discount Gahcay) 

Moncreiff, Henry James Lord 

Monk Bretton, John William Lord 

^lonkswell, Robert Lord 

Monson, Debonnaire John Lord 

Montagu of Beaulieu, Henry John Lord 

Monteagle, John Thomas Lord. (Marquess 
of Sligo) 

Monteagle of Brandon, Thomas Spring 
Lord 

Morley, Albert Edmund Earl of 

Morris, Michael Lord. (A Lard of Appeal 
in Ordinary) 

Morton, Sholto George Watson Earl of. 
(Elected for Scotland) 

Mostyn, Llewelyn Nevill Vaughan Lord 

Mount Edgcumbe, William Henry Earl of 

Mount Stephen, George Lord 

Mowbray, Charles Botolph Joseph Lord 

Muncaster, Josslyn Francis Lord 

Munster, William George Earl of 

Muskerry, Hamilton Matthew Fitzmaurice 
Lord. (Elected for Ireland) 



N 

Napier, Robert William Lord 
Nelson, Horatio Earl 



Newcastle, Henry Pelham Archibald 
Douglas Duke of 

Newlands, William Wallace Lord 

Newton, Thomas Wodehouse Lord 

Norfork, Henry Duke of. (Earl Marshal 
of England) 

Normanby, Constantine Charles Henry 
Marquess of 

North, William Henry John Lord 

Northampton, William George Spencer 
Scott Marquess of 

Northbourne, Walter Henry Lord 

Northbrook, Thomas George Earl of 

Northington, Frederick Lord. (Loi'd 
Henley) 

Northumberland, Henry George Duke of 

Norton, Charles Bowyer Lord 

Norwich, John Bishop of 

O 

O'Hagan, Thomas Towneley Lord 

O'Neill, Edward Lord 

Onslow, William Hillier Earl of 

Oranmore and Browne, Geoffrey 
Dominick Augustus Frederick Lord. 
(Elected for Ireland) 

Orford, Robert Horace Earl of 

Oriel, Clotworthy John Eyre Lord. (Vis- 
count Massereene) 

Ormathwaite, Arthur Lord 

Ormonde, James Edward William Theo- 
bald Lord. (Marqvess of Ormonde) 

Overtoun, John Campbell Lord 

Oxenfoord, John Lord. (Earl of Stair) 

Oxford, William Bishop of 



Peel, Arthur Wellesley Viscount 

Pembroke and Montgomery, Sidney Earl 
of. (Lard Steward of the Household) 

Penrhyn, George Sholto Gordon Lord 

Penzance, James Plaisted Lord 

Petre, Bernard Henry Philip Lord 

Pirbright, Henry Lord 

Playfair, George James Lord 

Plunket, William Lee Lord 

Poltimore, Augustus Frederick George 
Warwick Lord 



xvi ALPHABETICAL 

Polwarth, Walter Hugh Lord. {Elected 
for Scotland) 

Ponsonby, Walter William Brabazon Lord. 

(Earl of Beashorough) 

Portarlington, Lionel George Henry 
Seymour Earl of. {Elected for Ire- 
land) 

Portland, William John Arthur Charles 
James Duke of 

Portman, Wm. Henry Berkeley Viscount 

Portsmouth, Newton Earl of 

• Earl Poulett 

Powerscourt, Mervyn Edward Viscount. 
{Elected for Ireland) 

Powerscourt, Mervyn Edward Lord. {In 
another place as Viscount Powerscourt) 

Powis, George Charles Earl of 

R 

Radnor, William Earl of 

Eaglan, George Fitz-Roy Henry Lord 

Ramsay, Arthur George Maule Lord. 
(Earl of Dalhousie) 

Ranfurly, Uchter John Mark Lord. 
{Earl of Ranfurly) 

Rathdonnell, Thomas Kane Lord. 
{Elected for Ireland) 

Rathmore, David Robert Lord 

Ravensworth, Henry George Earl of 

Rayleigh, John William Lord 

Reay, Donald James Lord 

Rendel Stuart Lord 

Revelstoke, John Lord 

Ribblesdale, Thomas Lord 

Richmond, Charles Henry Duke of 

Ripon, George Fredk. Samuel Marquess of 

Ripon, William Boyd Bishop of 

Robartes, Thomas Charles Lord 

Roberts of Kandahar, Frederick Sleigh 
Lord 

Rodney, George Bridges Harley Dennett 
Lord 

Romilly, John Gaspard Le Marchant Lord 

Romney, Charles t^rl of 

Rookwood, Henry John Lord 

Rosebery, Archibald Philip Lord. {Earl 
of Uosehery) 

Rosmead, Hercules Arthur Temple Lord 



LIST OF THE 

Rosse, Lawrence Earl of. {Elected for 
Ireland) 

Rosslyn, James Francis Harry Earl of 

Rossmore, Derrick Warner William Lord 

Rothschild, Nathaniel Mayer Lord 

Rowton, Montagu William Lord 

Russell, John Francis Stanley Earl 

Russell of Killowen, Charles Lord 

Rutland, John James Robert Duke of 



Sackville, Lionel Sackville Lord 

Saint Albans, Charles Victor Albert 
Aubrey De Vere Duke of 

St. Albans, John Wogan Bishop of 

St. Asaph, Alfred George Bishop of 

St. Germans, Henry Comwallis Earl of 

St. John of Bletso, Beauchamp Moubray 
Lord 

Saint Leonards, Edward Burtenshaw Lord 

Saint Levan, John Lord 

Saint Oswald, Rowland Lord 

St. Vincent, Carnegie Parker Viscount 

Salisbury, Robert Arthur Talbot Mar- 
quess of 

Salisbury, John Bishop of 

Saltersford, James George Henry Lord 

{Earl of Courtomn) 

Saltoun, Alexander William Frederick 
Lord. {Elected for Scotland) 

Sandhurst, William Lord 

Sandwich, Edward George Henry Earl of 

Sandys, Augustus Frederick Arthur Lord 

Savile, John Sa\41e Lord 

Saye and Sele, John Fiennes Lord 

Scarbrough, Aldred Frederick George 
Beresford Earl of 

Scarsdale, Alfred Nathaniel Holden Lord 

Seaton, John Reginald Upton Lord 

Sefton, Charles William Hylton Philip 
Lord. {Earl of Sefton) 

Selborne, William Waldegrave Earl of 

Shaftesbury, Anthony Earl of 

Shand, Alexander Bums Lord 

Sheffield, Henry North Lord. {Earl of 
Sheffield) 

Sherborne, Edward Lennox Lord 



LORDS SPIRITUAL 

Shrewsbury, Charles Henry John Earl of 

Shute, Percy Lord. {Viscount BarnTUjtoTi) 

Sid mouth, William Wells Viscount 

Silchester, Thomas Lord. {Earl of Long- 
ford) 

Sinclair, Charles William Lord. {Elected 
for Scotland) 

S mierhill, Hubert [George Lord. {Mar- 
quess of Clanricardf) 

Somers, Philip Reginald Lord 

Somerset, Algernon Duke of 

Somerton, Sidney James Lord. {Earl of 
Normanton) 

Sondes, George Edward Earl 

Southampton, Charles Henry Lord 

Southwell, George Bishop of 

Spencer, John Poyntz Earl 

Stafford, Fitzherbert Lord 

Stalbridge, Richard de Aquila Lord 

Stamford, William Earl of 

Stanhope, Arthur Philip Earl 

Stanley of Alderley, Henry Edward John 
Lord 

Stanmore, Arthur Lord 

Stewart of Garlics, Alan Plantagenet Lord. 

{Eorl of Galloway) 

St rad broke, George Edward John Mow- 
bra v Earl of 

Straft'ord, Henry William John Earl of 

vSt range, John James Hugh Henry Earl. 

(DakeofAtholl) 

Strathcona and Mount Royal, Donald 
Alexander Lord 

Stratheden, Hallyburton George Lord 

Strathspey, James Lord. {Earl of Sea- 

fidd) 

Stuart of Castle Stuart, -Edmund Archi- 
bald Lord. {Earl of Moray) 

Su'leley, Charles Douglas Richard Lord 

Sudley, Arthur Saundei*s William Charles 
Fox Lord. {Earl of Arran) 

Siiffield. Charles Lord 

SuftV.lk and Berkshire, Henry Molyneux 
Paget Earl of 

Sutherland, Cromartie Duke of 
Swansea, Ernest Ambrose Lord 



Talbot de Malahide, Richard Wogan Lord 
Tanker ville. Charles Earl of 

VOL. LXXVII. [Fourth Series.] j^ 



AND TEMPORAl.. xvu 

Temple of Stowe, William Stephen Earl 

Templemore, Henry Spencer Lord 

Templetown, Henry Edward Montagu 
Dorington Clotworthy Viscount. 
{Elected for Ireland) 

Tennyson, Ha 11am Lord 

Tenterden,. Charles Stuart Henry Lord 

Teynham, Henry John Philip Sidney 
Lord 

Thring, Henry Lord 

Thurlow, Thomas John Lord 

Tollemache, Wilbraham Frederic Lord 

Torphichen, James Walter Lord. {Elected 
jor ScotluTid) 

Torrington, George Master Viscount 

Townshend, John Villiers Stuart Mar- 
quess 

Tredegar, Godfrey Charles Lord 

Trevor, Arthur William Lord 

Truro, John Bishop of 

Truro, Thomas Montague Morrison Lord 

Tweeddale, William Montagu Lord. 
{Marquess of Tweeddale) 

Tweedmouth, Edward Lord 

Tyrone, Henry De La Poer Lord. {Mar- 
quess of jVaterford) 

V 

Vane, Charles Stewart Earl. {Marquees 
of Londonderry) 

Vaux of Harrowden, Hubert George 
Charles Lord 

Ventry, Dayrolles Blakeney Lord. 
{Elected for Ireland) 

Vernon, George Francis Augustus Lord 

V&Fulam, James Walter Earl of 

Vivian, George Crespigny Brabazon Lord 

W 

Whales, His Royal Highness the Prince of 

Waldegrave, William Frederick Earl 

Walsingham, Thomas Lord 

Wandsworth, Sydney James Lord 

Wantage, Robert James Lord 

Watson, William Lord. {A Lord (f 
Appeal in Ordinary) 

Welby, Reginald Earle Lord 

Wellington, Heaiy Duke of 

h 



xviii ALPHABETICAL LIST, LORDS 

Wemyss, Francis Richard Lord. (Earl of 
JVemyss) 

Wenlock, Beilby Lord 

Wentworth, Ralph Gordon Lord. {In 
another place as Earl of Lovelace) 

Westbury, Richard Luttrell Pilkington 
Lord 

Westminster, Hugh Lupus Duke of 

Westmorland, Anthony Mildmay Julian 
Earl of 

Whamcliffe, Edward Montagu Stuart 
Granville Earl of 

Wigan James Ludovic Lord. (Earl of 
Crawford) 

Willoughby de Broke, Henry Lord 

Wilton, Arthur George Earl of 

Wimbome, Ivor Bertie Lord 

Winchester, Augustus John Henry Beau- 
mont Marquess of 

Winchester, Randall Thomas Bishop of 

Winchilsea and Nottingham, Henry Stor- 
mont Earl of 



SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL. 

Windsor, Robert George Lord 

Winton, George Amulph Earl of. (Earl 
of Eglington) 

Wolseley, Garnet Joseph Viscount 

Wolverton, Frederick Lord 

Worcester, John Jas. Stewart Bishop of 

Worlingham, Archibald Brabazon Sparrow 
Lord. (Earl of Gosford) 

Wrottesley, Arthur Lord 

Wynford, William Draper Mortimer Lord 



Yarborough, Chas. Alfred Worsley Earl of 

York, His Royal Highness George 
Frederick Ernest Albert Duke of 

York, William Dalrymple Archbishop of 



Zetland, Lawrence Marquess of 

Zouche of Haryngworth, Robert Nathaniel 
Cecil George Lord 



I^OLL 



OF THE 



LORDS SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL 



IN THE 



Sixth Session of the Twenty-Sixth Parliament 



OF 



THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND. 



63 VICTORIA 1899. 



Mem. — According to the Usage of Parluiment, when the House appoints a Select Committee 
tJie Lards appointed to serve upon it are named in the Order of thnr Rank, beginning with 
the Highest ; and so, when the House sends a Committee to a Conference with the 
Commons, the Lord highest in Bank is called first, and tlw rest go forth in like Order : 
But when the. JVTwle House is called over for any Purpose, within the Hou>se, or for t/ie, 
Purpose of proceeding forth to IFestminster Hall, or upon any public Solemnity, tlie Call 
begins invariably with tlie Junior Baron. 



1 His Royal Highness the Prince of 

Wales 

2 His Royal Highness Alfred Ernest 

Albert Duke of Edinburgh 

3 His Royal Highness Arthur William 

Patrick Albert Duke of Con- 
naught and Stratheam 

4 His Royal Highness George 

Frederick Ernest Albert Duke 
of York 

5 His Royal Highness Leopold 

Charies Edward George Albert 
Duke of Albany 

6 His Royal Highness George 

William Frederick Charies Duke 
of Cambridge 



7 Frederick Archbishop of Canter- 

bury 

8 Hardinge Stanley Eari of Halsbury, 

Lord High Chancellor 

9 William Daliymple Archbishop of 

York 

10 Spencer Compton Duke of Devon- 

shire, Lord President of the 
Council 

11 Richard Assheton Viscount Cross, 

Lard Privy Seal 

12 Henry Duke of Norfolk, Earl 

Marshal of England 

13 Algernon Duke of Somerset 

14 Charles Henry Duke of Richmond 
h 2 



XX 

in 
i(> 

17 

18 

19 
20 

21 

mi md 

23 
24 

25 
20 



27 



28 



29 
30 
31 
32 



33 
34 

3r> 

37 

3S 
31) 

40 

41 
42 



Augustus Charles Lennox Duke of 
(jrrafton 

Henry Charles Fitzroy Duke of 
Beaufort 

Charles Victor Albert Aubrey de 
Vere Duke of Saint Albans 

(xeorge Godolphin Duke of Leeds 

Herbrand Arthur Duke of Bedford 

Spencer Compton Duke of Devon- 
shire. {In aiwiher place as Lord 
President of the Council) 

Charles Richard John Duke of 
Marlborough 

John James Robert Duke of Rut- 
land 

Alfred Douglas Duke of Brandon 

William John Arthur Charles 
, James Duke of Portland 

William Angus Drogo Duke of 
^lanchester 

Henry Pelham Archibald Douglas 
Duke of Newcastle 

Algernon George Duke of Northum- 
berland 

His Royal Highness Ernest Augus- 
tus William Adolphus George 
Frederick Duke of Cumberland 
and Teviotdale 

Henry Duke of Wellington 

Cromartie Duke of Sutherland 

Hugh Lupus Duke of Westminster 

Alexander William George Duke of 
Fife 

George Douglas Duke of Argyll 

Augustus John Henry Beaumont 
Marquess of Winchester 

Henry Charles Keith Marquess of 
Lansdowne 

John Villiers Stuart Marquess 
Townshend 

liobert Arthur Talbot Marquess of 
Salisbury i 

Thomas Henry Marquess of Bath 1 

James Marquess of Abercorn 
( Duke of A hercorn) 

Hugh de Grey Marquess of Hert- 
ford 

I 

John Patrick Marquess of Bute : 

William Thomas Brownlow Mar- ; 
quess of Exeter 

William George Spencer Scott j 
Marquess of Northampton | 



ROLL OF THE LORDS 

44 John Charles Marquess Camden 



45 
46 

47 

48 

49 
50 

51 

52 
53 
54 

55 
56 



57 

58 
59 

60 

61 
62 

63 

64 

65 

66 
67 

68 
69 

70 

71 
72 



•70 



Henry Cyril Marquess of Anglesey 

George Henry Hugh Marquess of 
Cholmondeley 

Henry Augustus Marquess of 
Ailesbury 

Frederick William John Marques* 
of Bristol 

Archibald Marquess of Ailsa 

Constantine Charles Henry Mar- 
quess of Normanby 

George Frederick Samuel Marquess, 
of Kipon 

William Marquess of Abergavenny 

Gavin Marquess of Breadalbane 

Frederick Temple Marquess of 
Dufferin and Ava 

Lawrence Marquess of Zetland 

Sidney Earl of Pembroke and 
Montgomery, Lord Steward of th^ 
Household 

Charles Henry John Earl of 
Shrewsbury 

Frederick Arthur Earl of Derby 

Warner Francis John Plantagenet 
Earl of Huntingdon 

Sidney Earl of Pembroke and Mont- 
gomery. (In another place as 
Lord Steward of the Household) 

Henry Hugh Earl of Devon 

Henry Molyneaux Paget E<irl of 
Sutfolk and Berkshire 

Rudolph Robert Basil Aloysius^ 
Augustine Earl of Denbigh 

Anthony Mildmay Julian Earl of 
Westmorland 

Montague Peregrine Albemarle 
Earl of Lindsev 

ft. 

William Earl of Stamford 

Henry Stormont Earl of Winchilsea 
and Nottingham 

Edwvn Fnincis Earl of Chesterfield 

EdN^-ard Geori^o Henrv Earl of 
Sandwich 

George Devereux de Vere Earl of 
Essex 

Georure James Earl of Carlisle 

William Henrv Walter Earl of 
Doncaster. (Dukenf Burclcurh and 
Quc'ii.'ihrrri/) 

Anthonv Kail <»{ Shaftesburv 



SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL. 

103 



XXI 



74 Randal Mowbray Thomas Earl of 

Berkeley 

75 Montagu Arthur Earl of Abingdon 

76 Aldred Frederick George Beresford 

Earl of Scarborough 

77 Arnold Allan Cecil Earl of Albe- 

marle 

78 George William Earl of Coventry 

79 Victor Albert George Earl of Jersey 

SO Earl Poulett 

^1 John Francis Erskine Earl of Mar. 
(Elected for Scotland) 

82 Sholto George Watson Earl of 
Morton. (Elected for Scothnd) 

S?t Walter John Francis Earl of Mar 
and Kellie. (Elected for Scotland) 

84 George Earl of Haddington. 
(Eleded for Scotland) 

Si') Frederick Heiirv Earl of Lauderdale, 
{Eh'cteil for Scot bind) 

86 Da\'id Stanley William Earl of 

Airlie. (Elected for Scotland) 

87 Ro]^ert Harris Carnwath Earl of 

Carnwath. (Ehxted for Scotland) 

88 Ronald Ruthven Earl of Leven and 

Melville. (Elected for Scotland) 

89 Douglas Mackinnon Baillie Hamil- 

ton Earl of Dundonald. (Elected 
for Scotland) 

90 Sewallis Pxlward P^arl Ferrers 

91 William Heiieafire Fkrl of Dart- 

mouth 

92 Charles Earl of Tanker ville 

93 Charles Wight wick Earl of Ayles- 

ford 

94 Francis Thomas De Grey Earl 

Cowper 

95 Arthur Philip Earl Stanhope 

96 George Loveden William Henry 

Earl of Macclesfield 

97 Douglas Beresford Malise Ronald 

Karl Graham. (Duke of Mont- 

ro.<e) 

98 William Frederick Earl Walde- 

grave 

99 Bertram Earl of Ashburnham 

100 Charles Augustus Earl of Harring- 

ton 

101 Newton Earl of Portsmouth 

102 Francis Richard Charles Guy Earl 

Brooke and Earl of Warwick 



Sidney Carr Earl of Buckingham- 
shire 

104 William Thomas Spencer ijarl 

Fitzwilliami 

105 Frederick George Earl of Guilford 

106 Albert Edward Philip Heniy Rarl 

of Hardwicke 

107 Henry Edward Earl of Ilchester 

108 Gilbert George Reginald Earl Do 

La Warr 

109 William Earl of Radnor 

110 John Poyntz Earl Spencer 

111 Seymour Henry Earl Bathurst 

112 Arthur Wills John Wellington 

Trumbull Blundell Earl of Hills- 
borough. (Manjuess if Pawn^ 
shire) 

113 Edward Hyde Earl of Clarendon 

114 William David Earl of Mansfield 

115 John James Hugh Henry Earl 

Strange. (Duke of AilmJI) 

116 William Henry Earl of Mount 

Edgcumbe 

117 Hugh Earl Fortescue 

118 George Edward Stanhope Molyiieux 

Earl of Carnarvon 

119 George Henry Earl Cadogan 

120 Edward James P^xrl of Malmesbury 

121 John Vansittart Dan vers Earl of 

Lanesborough. (Ehrfrd frr he- 
hnxd) 

122 Lionel Georfire Henrv Seymour Earl 

of Portarlington. (EMal for 
h'eland) 

123 Dermot Robert Wvndham Eul of 

Mayo. (Elected fur D^'lond) 

124 Hugh Earl Annesley. (Eh rial for 

Irehrnd) 

125 George Earl of Lucan. (Ehrird for 

Ireland) 

126 Somerset Richard Earl of Belmorc. 

(Elected for Ireland) 

127 James Francis Earl of 

(Elected for Ireland) 

128 James Francis Harry 

Rosslyn 

129 William George Robert 

Craven 

130 William Hillier Earl of Onslow 

131 Charles Earl of Romnev 

132 Walter John Earl of Chichester 



Ban don. 
Earl of 
VjUvI of 



xxu 

133 Arthur George Earl of Wilton 

134 George Charles Earl of Powis 

135 Horatio Earl Nelson 

136 Lawrence Earl of Rosse. (Elected 

far Ireland) 

137 Sydney William Herljert Earl 

Manvers 

138 Robert Horace Earl of Orford 

139 Albert Henry George Earl Grey 

140 Hugh Cecil Earl of Lonsdale 

141 Dudley Francis Stuart Earl of 

Harrowby 

142 Henry Ulick Earl of Harewood 

143 GUbert John Earl of Minto 

144 Alan Frederick Earl Cathcart 

145 James Walter Earl of Verulam 

146 Adelbert Wellington Brownlow 

Earl Brownlow 

147 Henry Cornwallis Earl of St. 

Germans 

148 Albert Pldmund Earl of Morley 

149 George Cecil Orlando Earl of 

Bradford 

150 William Earl Beauchamp 

151 John Earl of Eldon 

152 Richard William Penn Earl Howe 

1 53 George Edward John Mowbray Earl 

of Stadbroke 

154 William Stephen Earl Temple of 

Stowe 

155 Francis Charles Earl of Kilmorey 

(Eleded far Irekind) 

156 Charles Stewart Earl Vane. 

(Marquess of Landondei'ry) 

157 William Archer Earl Amherst 

158 Frederick Archibald Vaughan Earl 

Cawdor 

159 William George Earl of Munster 

160 Robert Adam Philips Haldane Earl 

of Camperdown 

161 Thomas Francis Earl of Lichfield 

162 John George Earl of Durham 

163 Granville George Earl Granville 

164 Henry Alexander Gordon Earl of 

Effingham 

165 Henry John Earl of Ducie 

166 Charles Alfred Worsley Earl of 

Yarborough 

167 Henry John Plarl Innes. (Duke of 

Rarhinghf) 



ROLL OF THE LOKDS 

168 Thomas William Earl of Leicester 

169 Ralph Gordon Earl of Lovelace 

170 Charles William Francis Earl of 
Gainsborough 

171 Francis Charles Granville Earl of 
Ellesmere 



172 Henry William John Earl of 

Strafibrd 

173 Kenelm Charles Edward Earl of 

Cottenham 

174 Henry Arthur Momington Earl 

Cowley 

175 George Amulph Earl of WintOR 

(Earl of Eglintoun) 

176 William Humble Earl of Dudley 

177 John Francis Stanley Earl Russell 

178 John Earl of Kimberley 

179 Vesey Earl of Dartrey 

180 William Ernest Earl of Feversham 

181 Henry George Earl of Ravensworth 

182 Edward Montagu Stuart Granville 

Earl of Wharncliffe 

183 Thomas George Earl of Northbrook 

184 Herbert John Earl Cairns 

185 Victor Alexander George Robert 

Earl of Lytton 

186 Edward George Earl of Lathom 

187 George Edward Earl Sondes 

188 William Waldegrave Earl of Sel- 

borne 

189 Walter Stafford Earl of Iddesleigh 

190 Cornwallis Earl de Montalt 

191 William Henry Forester Earl of 

Londesborough 

192 Gathome Earl of Cranbrook 

193 Gilbert Henry Earl of Ancastw 

194 Charles Robert Earl Carrington 

195 Robert Offley Ashburton Earl of 

Crewe 

196 Wilbraham Earl Egerton 

197 Hardinge Stanley Earl of Hair 

bury. (In another place as Lord 
High Chancellor) 

198 Robert Viscount Hereford 

199 Byron Plantagenet Viscount Falk- 

land. (Elected for Scotland) 

200 Henry Viscount Bolingbroke and 

St. John 

201 Charles George Viscount Cobham 



SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL. 



XXIU 



202 Evelyn Edward Thomas Viscount 

Falmouth 

203 George Master Viscount Torrington 

204 Maurice Viscount Leinster. {Duke 

of Leinster) 

205 Francis Wheeler Viscount Hood 

206 Mervyn Edward Viscount Powers' 

court. (Elected for Ireland) 

207 . Henry William Crosbie Viscount 

Bangor. {Elected for Ireland) 

208 Cornwallis Viscount Hawarden- 

{Elected for Ireland.) {In anothei' 
jylace as Earl de Montalt) 

209 Carnegie Parker Viscount St. Vin- 

cent 

210 Henry Viscount Melville 

211 William Wells Viscount Sidmouth 

212 Henry Edward Montagu Dorington 

Clotworthy Viscount Temple- 
town. {Elected for Ireland) 

213 John Campbell Viscount Gordon. 

{Earl of Aberdeen) 

214 Edward Fleetwood John Viscount 

Exmouth 

215 John Luke George Viscount 

Hutchinson. {Earl of Donough- 
more) 

216 William Frederick Viscount Clan- 

carty. {Earl of Clancarty) 

217 Francis Lynch Viscount Com- 

bermere 

218 Henry Charles Viscount Canterbury 

219 Rowland Richard Viscount Hill 

220 Henry Charles Viscount Hardinge 

221 Hugh Viscount Gough 

222 Charles Lindley Viscount Halifax 

223 Alexander Nelson Viscount Brid" 

port 

224 William Henry Berkeley Viscount 

Portman 

225 Henry Robert Viscount Hampden 

226 Garnet Joseph Viscount Wolseley 

227 Richard Assheton Viscount Cross. 

(In another place as Lord Privy 
Seal) 

228 Arthur Wellesley Viscount Peel 

229 Henrv Thurstan Viscount Knuts- 

foid 

230 Henry Viscount Uandaff 

231 William Baliol Viscount Esher 

232 Evelyn Viscount Cromer 



233 Mandell Bishop of London 

234 Brooke Foss Bishop of Durham 

235 Randell Thomas Bishop of Win- 

chester 

236 Charles John Bishop of Gloucester 

237 John Charles Bishop of Liverpool 

238 Ernest Roland Bishop of Chichester 

239 Richard Bishop of Llandaff 

240 William Bishop of Oxford 

241 George Bishop of Southwell 

242 William Boyd Bishop of Ripon 

243 Edward Bishop of Lincoln 

244 Edward Henry Bishop of Exeter 

245 John Bishop of Salisbury 

246 Alwyne Bishop of Ely 

247 James Bishop of Manchester 

248 Francis John Bishop of Chester 

249 Alfred George Bishop of St. Asaph 

250 John Wogan Bishop of St. Albans 

251 John James Stewart Bishop of 

Worcester 

252 John Bishop of Truro 

253 Angustus Bishop of Lichfield 

254 John Wareing Bishop of Carlisle 

255 John Bishop of Norwich 

256 George Wyndham Bishop of Bath 

and Wells 

257 John Adrian Louis Lord Hopetoun 

{Earl of Hopdoun), Laid Cluimbei'- 
lain of the Household 

258 Dudley Charles Lord de Ros 

259 Charles Botolph Joseph Lord Mow- 

bray 

260 George Manners Lord Hastings 

261 Jack Southwell Lord de Clifford 

262 Charles Henry RoUe Lord Clinton 

263 Robert Nathaniel Cecil George 

Lord Zouche of Haryngworth 

264 Rawdon George Grey Lord Grey de 

Ruthyn 

265 Charles Edward Hastings Lord 

Botreaux. {Earl of Loudoun) 

266 Ralph Francis Julian Lord Camoys 

267 Henry Lord Willoughby de Broke 

268 Hubert George Charles Lord Vaux 

of Harrowden 

269 Ralph Gordon Lord Wentworth. 

{In another place as Earl of 
Lovelace) 




XIV 



ALPHABETICAL LIST OF THE 



Kenry, Windham Thomas Lord. (Earl \ Lingen, Ralph Robert WTieeler Lord 



of Dunrarcn and Mount-Earl) 

Kensington, William Lord 

Kenyon, Lloyd Lord 

Ker, Schomberg Henry Lord. (Marquess 
of Lothian) 

Kesteveii, John Henry Lord 

Ealmaine, Francis William Lord. (Elected 
foi- Ireland) 

Kilmarnock, Charles Gore Lord. (Earl 
of Erroll) 

Kilmorev, Francis Charles Earl of. 
(Elected for Inland) 

Kimberley, John Earl of 

Kinnaird, Arthur Fitz-Gerald Lord 

Kinnear, Alexander Smith Lord 

Kintore, Algernon Hawkins Thomond 
Lord. (Earl of Kintore) 

Kitchener of Khartoum, Horatio Herbert 
Lord 

Knutsford, Henry Thurstan Viscount 



Lamington, Charles Wallace Alexander 
Napier Lord 

Lanesborough, John Van sit tart Dan vers 
Earl of. (Elected for Ireland) 

Langford, Hercules Edward Lord. (Elected 
for Ireland) 

Lansdowne, Henry Charles Keith Mar- 
quess of 

Lathom, Edward George Earl of 

Lauderdale, Frederick Henry Earl of. 
(Elected for Scotlund) 

Jjawrence, John Hamilton Lord 

Leconfield, Henry Lord 

Leeds, George Godolphin Duke of 

Leicester, Thomas William Earl of 

Leigh, William Henry Lord 



Lister, Joseph Lord 

Liverpool, John Charles Bishop of 

Llandaff, Henry Viscount 

Llandaff, Richard Bishop of 

Llangattock, John Allan Lord 

Loch, Henry Brougham Lord 

Loftus, John Henry Lord. (Marquess of 
Ely) 

Londesborough, William Henry Forester 
Earl of 

London, Mandell Bishop of 

Lonsdale, Hugh Cecil Earl of 

Lovaine, Henry George Lord. (Earl 

Percy) 

Lovat, Simon Joseph Lord 

Lovelace, Ralph Gordon Earl of 

Lovel and Holland, Augustus Arthur 
Lord. (Earl of Egnmd) 

Lucan, George Earl of. (Elected for 
Ireland) 

Ludlow, Henry Charles Lord 

Lurgan, William Lord 

Lvtton, Victor Alexander George Robert 
Earl of 

Lyveden, FitzPatrick Henry Lord 



M 

Macclesfield, George Loveden William 
Henry Earl of 

Macnaghten Edward Lord. (A Lord 

of Appeal in Ordinary) 

Magheramome, James Douglas Lord 

Malcolm of Poltalloch, John Wingfield 
Lord 

Malmesbury, Edward James Earl of 

Manchester, Wm. Angus Drogo Duke of 

Manchester, James Bishop of 

Leinster, Maurice Viscount. (Duke of \ Manners of Haddon, Henry John Brinsley 
Ijeinster) ! Lord. (Marquess of Granhy) 

Leven and Melville, Ronald Ruthven i Manners, John Thomas Lord 

Earl of. (Elected for Scofhml) i Mansfield, William David Earl of 

Lichfield, Thomas Francis Earl of | Manvers, Sydney William Herbert Earl 

Lichfield, Augustus Bishop of i ;^jaj.^ j^^^^ FrsLUck Erskine Earl of. 

Lilford, John Lord , (Eledcd for Scotland) 

Lincoln, Eiiward Bishop of i Mar and Kellie, Walter John Francis Earl 

Lindsey, Montague Peregrine Albemarle | ^f. (Elected for ScoHand) 

Earl of Marlborough, Charles Richd. JohnDukeof 



SPIKITUAL AND TEMPORAL. 



XXV 



:332 
333 

334 

335 

336 

337 

^38 

339 

340 

341 

342 

343 

344 

345 

346 
347 

348 

349 

350 
351 

352 



353 
354 
355 



356 
357 
358 
359 



Thomas Lord Ribblesdale 

Edward Donough Lord Inchiquin. 
(Elected for Ireland) 

Somerset Henry Lord Farnham. 
{Elected for Ireland) 

John Thomas William Lord Massy. 
(Elected for Ireland) 

Hamilton Matthew Fitzmaurice 
Lord Muskerry. (Elected for 
Ireland) 

Francis William Lord Kilmaine. 
(Elected for Ireland) 

Luke Gerald Lord Clonbrock. 
(Elected for Ireland) 

Charles Mark Lord Headley. 
(Elected for Ireland) 

Edward Henry Churchill Lord 
Crofton. (Elected for Ireland) 

Hercules Edward Lord Langford 
(Elected for Ireland) 

Dayrolles Blakeney Lord Yen try. 
(Elected for Ireland) 

Henry O'Callaghan Lord Dunalley. 

(Elected for Ireland) 

John Henry Lord Loftus. (Mar- 
(2ue,<s of Ely) 

William Lord Carysfort. (Earl of 
Carj/sfort) 

(xeorge Ralph Lord Abercromby 

Charles Towry Hamilton Lord 
EUensborough 

Augustus Frederick Arthur Lord 
Sandys 

Henrv North Lord Sheffield. (Earl 
of Shejfield) 

William Macnaghten Lord Erskine 

John Thomas Lord ^lonteagle. 
(Marqne.'is of Sligo) 

Bernard Arthur William Patrick ^^^ 
Hastings Lord Granard. (Earl 
of Granard) 

Lord Gardner 



360 

361 

362 
363 
364 
365 

366 

367 

368 

369 
370 

'371 
372 

; 373 

'374 
3 i 'J 
376 

377 

378 
379 

380 



John Thomas Lord Manners 

John Adrian Louis Lord Hopetoun- 
(Earl of Hopetoun.) (In another 
place as Lord Chamherlain if the 
Household) 

Albert Edward Lord Castlemaine. 
(Elected for Ireland) 

Charles Lord Meldrum. (Marquess 
of Hunthi) 

Lowry Egerton Lord Grinstead. 
(Earl of Enniskillen) 

William Henry Edmond de Vere 
Sheaffe Lord Foxford. (Earl of \ 38!) 
LimericI:) 



382 
383 
384 
385 

386 
387 

388 



Victor Albert Francis Charles Lord 
Churchill 

George Robert Canning Lord 
Harris 

Reginald Charles Edward Lord 
Colchester 

Schomberg Henry Lord Ker. 
(Marque.<.s of UitJiian) 

Victor George Henry Francis Lord 
Minster. (Marquess Conymjham) 

James Edward William Theobald 
Lord Ormonde. (Marquess of 
Ormonde) 

Francis Richard Lord Wemyss, 
(Earl of JFemt/xs) 

Thomas Lord Silchester. (Earl of 
Longford) 

Clotworthy John Eyre Lord Oriel. 

( Vi<r<n(nt Massereenf) 

Hugh Lord Delamere 

Cecil Theodore Lord Forester 

John William Lord Rayleigh 

EMric Frederick Lord Gifford 

Hubert George Lord Somerhill. 
(Marquess of Clanrkarde) 

James Ludovic Lord Wigan. (Earl 
of Crauford) 

Uchter John Mark Lord Ranfurly. 
(Earl of Ranfurhj) 

Charles Stewart Henry Lord Ten- 
terden 

William Lee Lord Plunket 

William Fredk. Lord Hevtesbury 

Archibald Philip Lord Rosebery. 
(Earl of Rosebcri/) 

Richard James Lord Clanwilliam 
(Earl of Clanwilliam) 

William Draper Mortimer Lord 
Wynfonl 

Charles Gore Lord Kilmarnock. 
(Earl of Erroll) 

Arthur James Francis Lord Fin- 
gall. (Earl of Fimjall) 

Charles William Hylton Philip 
Lord Sefton. {Earl of S^fton) 

Charles Lord Clements. (Earl of 
I^ if rim) 

Geoffrey Thomas Lord Kenlis. 
(Mfirriuess of 11 ad fort) 

Reginald Lord Cha worth. (Earl 
of Mi>ath) 

Charles Adolphus Lord Dunmorc. 
Earl of Dun more) 

Augustus Frederick George War- 
wick Lord Poltimore 



xviii ALPHABETICAL LIST, LORDS 

Wemyss, Francis Eichard Lord. {Earl of 
Wemyss) 

Wenlock, Beilby Lord 

Wentworth, Ealph Gordon Lord. {In 
another place as Earl of Lovelace) 

Westbury, Richard Luttrell Pilkington 
Lord 

Westminster, Hugh Lupus Duke of 

Westmorland, Anthony Mildmay Julian 
Earl of 

Whamcliffe, Edward Montagu Stuart 
Granville Earl of 

Wigan James Ludovic Lord. {Earl of 
Crawford) 

Willoughby de Broke, Henry Lord 

Wilton, Arthur George Earl of 

Wimbome, Ivor Bertie Lord 

Winchester, Augustus John Henry Beau- 
mont Marquess of 

Winchester, Eandall Thomas Bishop of 

Winchilsea and Nottingham, Henry Stor- 
mont Earl of 



SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL. 

Windsor, Robert George Lord 

Winton, George Arnulph Earl of. {Earl 

of Eglington) 

Wolseley, Garnet Joseph Viscount 

Wolverton, Frederick Lord 

Worcester, John Jas. Stewart Bishop of 

Worlingham, Archibald Brabazon Sparrow 
Lord. {Earl of Gosford) 

Wrottesley, Arthur Lord 

Wynford, William Draper Mortimer Lord 



Yarborough, Chas. Alfred Worsley Earl of 

York, His Royal Highness George 
Frederick Ernest Albert Duke of 

York, William Dalrymple Archbishop of 



Zetland, Lawrence Marquess of 

Zouche of Har3mgworth, Robert Nathaniel 
Cecil George Lord 



liOLL 



OF THE 



LOEDS SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL 



IN THE 



Sixth Session of the Twenty-Sixth Parliament 



OF 



THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND. 



63 VICTORIA 1899. 



Mem. — According to the Usage of Paiiidment, whefi th/' Home appoints a Select Committee 
the Lords appoirUed to serve upon it are Tunned in the Order of thnr Rank, beginning tuith 
the Highest ; and so, when the House sends a Committee to a Conference mith the 
Commons, the Lord highest in Rank is called first, and tlie rest go forth in like Order : 
But when the, IVhole House is called over for any Purpose, mthin the House, or for the 
Purpose of proceeding foiih to Westminster Hall, or tipon any public Solemnity, tJie Call 
begins invariably with tJie Junior Baron. 



1 His Royal Highness the Prince of 

Wales 

2 His Royal Highness Alfred Ernest 

Albert Duke of Edinburgh 

3 His Royal Highness Arthur William 

Patrick Albert Duke of Con- 
naught and Stratheam 

A His Royal Highness George 
Frederick Ernest Albert Duke 
of York 

5 His Royal Highness Leopold 

Charies Edward George Albert 
Duke of Albany 

6 His Royal Highness George 

William Frederick Charles Duke 
of Cambridge 



7 Frederick Archbishop of Canter- 

bury 

8 Hardinge Stanley Earl of Halsbury, 

Lord High Chancellor 

9 William Dalr3nmple Archbishop of 

York 

10 Spencer Compton Duke of Devon- 

shire, Lord President of the 
Council 

11 Richard Assheton Viscount Cross, 

Lord Priny Seal 

12 Henry Duke of Norfolk, Earl 

Marshal of England 

13 Algernon Duke of Somerset 

14 Charles Henry Duke of Richmond 
b 2 



xxu 

133 Arthur George Karl of Wilton 

134 George Charles Earl of Powis 

135 Horatio Earl Nelson 

136 Lawrence Earl of Rosse. {Elected 

far Irehvd) 

137 Sydney William Herbert Earl 

Manvers 

138 Robert Horace Earl of Orford 

139 Albert Henry George Earl Grey 

140 Hugh Cecil Earl of Lonsdale 

141 Dudley Francis Stuart Earl of 

Harrowby 

142 Henry Ulick Earl of Harewood 

143 Gilbert John Earl of Minto 

144 Alan Frederick Earl Cathcart 

145 James Walter Earl of Verulam 

146 Adelbert Wellington Brownlow 

Earl Brownlow 

147 Henry Cornwallis Earl of St. 

Germans 

148 Albert Pxlmund Earl of Morley 

149 George Cecil Orlando Earl of 

Bradford 

150 William Earl Beauchamp 

151 John Earl of Eldon 

152 Richard William Penn Earl Howe 

153 George Edward John Mowbray Earl 

of btadbroke 

154 William Stephen Earl Temple of 

Stowe 

155 Francis Charles Earl of Kilmorey 

{Eleded far Ireland) 

156 Charles Stewart Earl Vane. 

(Marquess af Landandernj) 

157 William Archer Earl Amherst 

158 Frederick Archibald Vaughan Earl 

Cawdor 

159 William George Earl of Munster 

160 Robert Adam Philips Haldane Earl 

of Camperdown 

161 Thomas Francis Earl of Lichfield 

162 John George Earl of Durham 

163 Granville George Earl Granville 

164 Henry Alexander Gordon Earl of 

Effingham 

165 Henry John Earl of Ducie 

166 Charles Alfred Worsley Earl of 

Yarborough 

167 Henry John Earl Innes. (Diike of 

Rorinirghe) 



ROLL OF THE LORDS 

168 Thomas William Earl of Leicester 

169 Ralph Gordon Earl of Lovelace 

170 Charles William Francis Earl of 
Gainsborough 

171 Francis Charles Granville Earl of 
Ellesmere 



172 Henry W^illiam John Earl of 
Strafford 

173 Kenelm Charles Edward Earl of 
Cottenham 

174 Henry Arthur Momington Earl 
Cowley 

175 George Arnulph Earl of Winton. 
{Earl of EgliTiiaun) 

176 William Huml)le Earl of Dudley 

177 John Francis Stanley Earl Russell 

178 John Earl of Kimberley 
i 179 Vesey Earl of Dartrey 

180 William Ernest Earl of Feversham 

181 Henry George Earl of Ravensworth 

182 Edward Montagu Stuart Granville 
Earl of WharnclifFe 

183 Thomas George Earl of Northbrook 

184 Herbert John Earl Cairns 

185 Victor Alexander George Robert- 
Earl of Lytton 

186 Edward George Earl of Lathom 

187 George Ekiward Earl Sondes 

188 William Waldegrave Earl of Sel- 
borne 

189 Walter Stafford Earl of Iddesleigh 

190 Cornwallis Earl de Montalt 

191 William Henry Forester Earl of 
Londesborough 

192 Gathorne Earl of Cranbrook 

193 Gilbert Henry Earl of Ancaster 

194 Charles Robert Earl Carrington 

195 Robert Offley Ashbiuton Earl of 
Crewe 

196 Wilbraham Earl Egerton 

197 Hardinge Stanley Earl of Hals* 
bury. {In another 2^l<iC€ a^^ Lord 
High Chancellor) 

198 Robert Viscount Hereford 

199 Byron Plantagenet Viscount Falk- 
land. {Elected for Scotland) 

200 Henry Viscount Bolingbroke and 
St. John 

201 Charles George Viscount Cobham 



SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL. 



XXIU 



202 Eveljm Edward Thomas Viscount 

Falmouth 

203 George Master Viscount Torrington 

204 Maurice Viscount Leinster. {Duke 

of Leinster) 

205 Francis Wheeler Viscount Hood 

206 Mervyn Edward Viscount Powers" 

court. {Elected for Ireland) 

207 . Henry William Crosbie Viscount 

Bangor. {Elected for Ireland) 

208 Cornwallis Viscount Hawarden* 

{Elected for Ireland,) {In another 
place as Earl de Montalt) 

209 Carnegie Parker Viscount St. Vin- 

cent 

210 Henry Viscount Melville 

21 1 William Wells Viscount Sidmouth 

212 Henry Edward Montagu Dorington 

Clotworthy Viscount Temple- 
town. {Elected for Ireland) 

213 John Campbell Viscount Grordon. 

(Earl of Aberdeen) 

214 Edward Fleetwood John Viscount 

Exmouth 

215 John Luke George Viscount 

Hutchinson. {Earl of Donough- 
more) 

216 William Frederick Viscount Clan- 

carty. {Earl of Clancarty) 

217 Francis Lynch Viscount Com- 

bermere 

218 Henry Charles Viscount Canterbury 

219 Rowland Richard Viscount Hill 

220 Henry Charles Viscount Hardinge 

221 Hugh Viscount Gough 

222 Charles Lindley Viscount Halifax 

223 Alexander Nelson Viscount Brid" 

port 

224 William Henry Berkeley Viscount 

Portman 

225 Henry Robert Viscount Hampden 

226 Gramet Joseph Viscount Wolseley 

227 Richard Assheton Viscount Cross. 

(In another place as Lord Privy 
Seal) 

228 Arthur Wellesley Viscount Peel 

229 Henrv Thurstan Viscount Knuts- 

ford 

230 Henry Viscount LlandafF 

231 WiUiam Baliol Viscount Esher 

232 Evelyn Viscount Cromer 



233 Mandell Bishop of London 

234 Brooke Foss Bishop of Durham 

235 Randell Thomas Bishop of Win- 

chester 

236 Charles John Bishop of Gloucester 

237 John Charles Bishop of Liverpool 

238 Ernest Roland Bishop of Chichester 

239 Richard Bishop of Llandaff 

240 William Bishop of Oxford 

241 George Bishop of Southwell 

242 William Boyd Bishop of Ripon 

243 Edward Bishop of Lincoln 

244 Edward Henry Bishop of Exeter 

245 John Bishop of Salisbury 

246 Alwyne Bishop of Ely 

247 James Bishop of Manchester 

248 Francis John Bishop of Chester 

249 Alfred George Bishop of St. Asaph 

250 John Wogan Bishop of St. Albans 

251 John James Stewart Bishop of 

Worcester 

252 John Bishop of Truro 

253 Angustus Bishop of Lichfield 

254 John Wareing Bishop of Carlisle 

255 John Bishop of Norwich 

256 George Wyndham Bishop of Bath 

and Wells 

257 John Adrian Louis Lord Hopetoun 

{Earl of Hopdoun), Lard Clutmhei- 
lain of tlie Household 

258 Dudley Charles Lord de Ros 

259 Charles Botolph Joseph Lord Mow- 

bray 

260 George Manners Lord Hastings 

261 Jack Southwell Lord de Clifford 

262 Charles Henry RoUe Lord Clinton 

263 Robert Nathaniel Cecil George 

Lord Zouche of Haryngworth 

264 Rawdon George Grey Lord Grey de 

Ruthyn 

265 Charles Edward Hastings Lord 

Botreaux. {Earl of Loudoun) 

266 Ralph Francis Julian Lord Camoys 

267 Henry Lord Willoughby de Broke 

268 Hubert George Charles Lord Vaux 

of Harrowden 

269 Ralph Gordon Lord Wentworth. 

{In another place as Earl of 
Lovelace) 



XXIV 

270 

271 
272 



27:] 



274 

270 
276 
277 

278 

279 

280 

281 
282 

28:3 

284 

285 
28G 

287 

288 
289 

290 

291 
292 

293 
294 

295 
29G 

297 

298 
299 



Alfred Thomas Townshend Lord 
Braye 

Kobert Greorge Lord Windsor 

William Henrv John Lord North 

Beauchamp Moubray Ix)rd St. John 
of Bletso 

Frederick George Lord Howard de 
Walden 

Bernard Henry Philip Lord Petre 

John Fiennes Lord Saye and Sele 

John Francis Lonl Anindell of 
Wardour 

Pxlwanl Henry Stuart Lord Clifton. 
{Ear J of Damley) 

John Baptist Joseph Lord Dormer 

Henry John Philip Sidney Lord 
Tevnham 

Fitzherbert Lord Stafford 

George Frederick William Lord 

Bvron 

Lewis Henry Hugh Lord Clifford 
of Chudleigh 

Henry John Brinsley Lord Manners 
oi Haddon. (Marquess of Gnnthi/) 

Henry de Vere Lord Barnaixi 

Horace Courtenay Gamniell Lord 
Forbes. {Elected for Seotlnnd) 

Alexander William Frederick Lord 
Saltoun. {Elected for Seothnul) 

Charles William Lord Sinclair. 
(Elected for Scot hi mt) 

James Walter Lord Torphichen. 
{Elected for Scotland) 

Alexander Hugh Lord Balfour of 
Burleigh. {Elected ftr Scothmd) 

A\'alter Hugh Lord Pol worth. 
{Elected for Scotland) 

Kichard Edmund St. liawrence 
Lord Boyle. {Earl if Cork and 
(hrery) 

George Lord Hay. {Earl of 
Khinotd) 

Digby Wentworth Bayard Loixl 
Middleton 

Debonnaire John Lord Monson 

Walter William Brabazon Loixl 
Ponsonby. {Earl of Bessborough) 

Alfred Nathaniel Holden Lord 
Scarsdale 

George Florance Tjord Boston 

Augustus Arthur Lord Lovel and 
Holland. {Earl of Egmont) 



ROLL OF THE LORDS 
300 



George Francis Augustus Lord 
Vernon 

301 Edward Henry Trafalgar Lord 

Digby 

302 Martin Bladen Lord Hawke 

303 Henry Thomas Lord Foley 

304 Arthur de Cardoimel Lord Dinevor 

305 Thomas Lord Walsingham 

306 William Lord Bagot 

307 Charles Henry Lord Southampton 

308 John Richard Brinsley Lord Grant- 

ley 

309 George Bridges Harley Dennett 

Lord Rodney 

310 Henry George Lord Lovaine. 

(Enrl Percff.) {In another jdaee as 
Jj like of Xorth u niberlu nd) 

311 Philip Reginald Lord Somers 

312 Kichard Henrv Lord Berwick 

313 Edward Lennox Lord Sherl>orne 

314 Henry Dc La Poer Lord T^Tone. 

{Marque.<ii nf jraterford) 

3L5 Richard Henry Lord Carleton. 

{Etnl of S lion n on) 

31 G Charles Lord Suffield 

317 Llovd Lord Kenvon 

318 Charles Cornwallis Lord Brav- 

brooke 

319 George Augustus Hamilton I^rd 

FishtMwii'k. {}[arqvcss of Done- 
g.dl) 

:J20 Henry Charles Lord Gage. {VU- 

fiHint ffiiij') 

321 Tli«»ni;m John Lord Thurlow 

322 William Morten Loixl Auckland 

323 Lonnold (Jcorgo FriMlerick Lonl 

NMMMJip. (/ isrounf Clifdfn) 

321 biiiinnd Anhibal*! Lord Stuart of 
( 'ji.«<t Ir St nart . ( Enrl 'f Morotj) 

32.") Alan I'bintagfnct Lord Stewart of 
(Jarlirfj, (Enrl if (lalhncoii) 

320 Janus (irortjr Henrv Lord Salters- 

ford. { E>nl ff < \nntini'}() 

327 WillinfF! Lord HnMlrirk. {Jl.<cofnd 
Mf/fpfnn) 

32H Ant{n«tii=? Cliohnondolev Lord Cal- 

T 
thorpe 

329 Pet^r llol.^rt Lord <lwvdir 

330 Willi/iTri IlioifuH Lord Holton 

331 John L/»f<I Lilfofd 



332 Thomas Lord Ribblesdale 

333 Edward Donough Lord Inchiquin. 

(Elected for Ireland) 

334 Somerset Henry Lord Farnham. 

{Elected for Ireland) 

335 John Thomas William Lord Massy. 

{Elected for Ireland) 

336 Hamilton Matthew Fitzmaurice 

Lord Muskerry. {Elected for 
Ireland) 

337 Francis William Lord Kilmaine. 

(Elected for Ireland) 

;538 Luke Gerald Lord Clonbrock. 
(Elected for Ireland) 

330 Charles Mark Lord Headley. 
(Elected for Ireland) 

340 Edward Henry Churchill Lord 

Crofton. (Elected for Irekind) 

341 Hercules Edward Lord Langford 

(Elected for Ireland) 

342 DayroUes Blakeney Lord Ventry. 

(Elected for Ireland) 

343 Henry O'Callaghan Lord Dunalley. 

(Elected for Irelund) 

344 John Henry Lord Loftus. (Mar- 

quess of Ely) 

345 William Lord Carysfort. (Earl of 

Carii.<fort) 

346 George Ralph Lord Abercromby 

347 Charles Towry Hamilton Lord 

Ellensborough 

348 Augustus Frederick Arthur Lord 

Sandys 

349 Henrv North Lord Sheffield. (Earl 

of Sheffield) 

350 William Macnaghten Lord Erskine 

351 John Thomas Lord Monteagle. 

(Mar que i<,^ of Sligo) 

352 Bernard Arthur William Patrick 

Hastings Lord Granard. (Earl 
of Granxird) 

353 Lord Gardner 

354 John Thomas Lord Manners 

355 John Adrian Louis Lord Hopetoun- 

(Earl of Hopetoun.) (In another 
place as Lord Chmaherlain of the 
Household) 

356 Albert Edward Lord Castlemaine. 

(Elected for Ireland) 

357 Charles Lord Meldrum. (Marquess 

of Hunily) 

358 Lowry Egerton Lord Grinstead. 

(Earl of Enniskillen) 

359 William Henry Edmond de Vere 

Sheaffe Lord Foxford. (Earl of 
Limerich) 



SPIKITUAL AND TEMPORAL. 

'360 



XXV 



Victor Albeit Francis Charles Lord 
Churchill 

361 George Robert Canning Lord 

Harris 

362 Reginald Charles Ed\Vard Lord 

Colchester 

363 Schomberg Henry Lord Ker. 

(Marquess of Ijithian) 

364 Victor George Henry Francis Lord 

Minster. (Marqnrss Coni/nffham) 

365 James Edward William Theobald 

Lord Ormonde. (Marqurss of 
Ormonde) 

366 Francis Richard Lord Wemyss. 

(Earl of JFemj/^s) 

367 Thomas Lord Silchester. (Earl of 

Longford) 

368 Clotworthy John Eyre Lord Oriel. 

( Vi<count Masse reem) 

369 Hugh Lord Delamere 

370 Cecil Theodore Lord Forester 

371 John William Lord Rayleigh 

372 Edric Frederick Lord Gifford 

373 Hubert George Lord Somerhill. 

(Marguf'ss of CUinricarde) 

374 James Ludovic Lord Wigan. (Earl 

of Crauford) 

375 Uchter John Mark Lord Ranfurly. 

(Earl of RanfurhJ) 

376 Charles Stewart Henry Lord Ten- 

terden 

377 William Lee Lord Plunket 

378 William Fredk. Lord Heytesbury 

379 Archibald Philip Lord Rosebery. 

(Earl of Roseheni) 

380 Richard James Lord Clanwilliam 

(Earl of Clanuilliam) 

381 William Draper Mortimer Lord 

Wynford 

382 Charles Gore Lord Kilmarnock. 

(Earl of Erroll) 

383 Arthur James Francis Lord Fin- 

gall. (Earl of Finqall) 

384 Charles William Hylton Philip 

Lord Sefton. {Earl of Seftoji) 

385 Charles Lord Clements. (Earl of 

Lntriat) 

386 Geoffrey Thomas Lord Kenlis. 

(Marqiiess of Hiodfort) 

387 Reginald Lord Chaworth. (Earl 

of Meath) 

388 Charles Adolphus Lord Dunmore. 

Earl (f Dunmore) 

389 Augustus Frederick George War- 

wick Lord Poltimore 



XXVI 



ROLL OF THE LORDS 



390 

391 
392 

393 

394 
395 

396 
397 

398 

399 

400 

401 

402 
403 
404 

405 

406 

407 

408 
409 

410 
411 

412 
413 
414 
415 

416 
417 
418 

419 

420 
421 

422 

423 



Llewelyn Nevill Vaughan Lord 
Mostyn 

Henry Spencer Lord Templemore 

Valentine Frederick Lord Clon- 
curry 

James St. Vincent Lord De Sau- 
marez 

Thomas Lord Denman 

James Yorke MacGregor Lord 
Abinger 

PhUip Lordpe L'Isle and Dudley 

Francis Denzil Edward Lord Ash- 
burton 

Edward George Percy Lord 
Hatherton 



424 

425 

426 

427 
428 

429 
430 

431 



432 
433 
434 

435 
436 



Archibald Brabazon Sparrow Lord 
Worlingham. (Earl of Goaford) 

Hallyburton George Lord Strathe- 
den 

Geoffrey Dominick Augustus 
Frederick Lord Oranmore and 
Browne. {Elected for Irehtnd) 

Simon Joseph Lord Lovat 

William Bateman Lord Bateman 

Algernon Hawkins Thomond Lord 

Kintore. {Earl of Kintaie) 
Derrick Warner William Lord 

Hossmore 

Robert Shapland (xeorge Julian 
Lord Carew 

William Ashley Webb Lord De 
Mauley 

Arthur Lord Wrottesley 

Charles Douglas Richard Lord 

Sudeley 
Paul Sanford Lord Methuen 

Henry Edward John Lord Stanley 

of Alderley 
William Henry Lord Leigh 
Beilby Lord Wenlock 
William Lord Lurgan 

Thomas Spring Loitl Monteagle of 
Brandon 

John Reginald Upton Lord Seaton 
John Manley Arbuthnot Lord Keane 
John Lord Oxonfoonl. {Korl of\^^^^ 
Stair) 

George Crespigny Bral)az()n Lord 
Vivian 

Henry Lord Congleton 

Victor Alexander Lord Elgin. 
{Earl of EUjin and Kineardiiie) 

Thomas Montague ^lorrison Lord 
Truro 

Arthur Lord de Freync 



437 

^38 

439 

440 
441 

442 

443 

444 
445 

446 
447 

448 

449 



451 
452 
453 

454 



455 
456 
457 



Edward Burtenshaw Lord Saint 
Leonards 

George Fitz-Roy Henry Lord 
Ri^lan 

Valentine Augustus Lord Kenmare 
{Earl of Kenmare) 

Henry Lord Belper 

Richard Wogan Lord Talbot de 
Malahide 

Robert Wellesley Lord Ebury 

Charles Compton William Lord 

Chesham 

Frederick Augustus Lord Chelms- 
ford 

John Lord Churston 

Henry Lord Leconfield 

Godfrey Charles Lord Tredegar 

Fitz Patrick Henry \jyc6. Lyveden 

Henry Charles Lord Brougham and 
Vaux 

Arthur Fitz-Gerald Lord Kinnaird 

Richard Luttrell Pilkington Lord 

Westbury 

Charles Paget Fitzhardinge Lord 
Fitzhardinge 

Luke Lord Annaly 

John Gaspard Le Marchant Lord 
Romilly 

James Herbert Gustavus Meredyth 
Lord Meredyth. {Lord Ath- 
lumney) 

Windham Thomas Lord Kenry* 
{Earl of Dunraven and Momi- 
Earl) 

Henry Power Charles Stanley Lord 
Monck. {Viscount Monck) 

John Major Lord Hartismere. 
{Lmd Henniker) 

Hedworth Hylton Lord Hylton 

George Sholto Gordon Lord Pen- 
rhvn 

Gustavus Russell Lord Brancepeth. 
( / \^ount Boyne) 

John Henry Lord Kesteven 

Arthur Lord Ormathwaite 

Edward Lord O'Neill 

Robert William Lord Napier 

Jenico William Joseph Lord Gor 
manaton. {Vmouni Gwmanston) 

Thomas Kane Lord RathdonnelL 
{Elected for Ireland) 

John Hamilton Lord Lawrence 

James Plaisted Lord Penzance 

John Lord Dunning. {Lord Rollo) 



SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL. 



xxvu 



458 James Lord Balinhard. {Earl of 

Sovthesk) 

459 William Lord Hare. {Earl of 

Listmcel) 

460 Francis Edward Lord Howard of 

Glossop 

461 Bernard Edward Barnaby Lord 

Castletown 

462 John Emerich Edward Lord Acton 

463 Thomas Charles Lord Robartes 

464 Frederick Lord Wolverton 

465 Algernon William Fulke Lord 

Greville 

466 Thomas Towneley Lord O'Hagan 

467 William Lord Sandhurst 

468 AVilliam John George Lord Ettrick. 

{Lcn'd Napier) 

469 Sidney James Lord Somerton. 

{Earl of Normanion) 

470 Henry Campbell Lord Aberdare 

471 Henry James Lord MoncriefF 

472 Bernard John Seymour Lord Cole- 

ridge 

473 Thomas William Gaston Lord Emly 
*474 Thomas Francis Lord Cottesloe 

475 Herbert Perrott Murray Lord 

Hampton 

476 Charles Alexander Lord Douglas. 

{Earl of Home) 

477 Arthur George Maule Lord Ramsey. 

{Earl of Dallioune) 

478 John Henry Lord Fermanagh. 

{Earl Ei-ne) 

479 William Richard Lord Harlech 

480 Henry Gerard Lord Alington 

481 Wilbraham Frederick Lord Tolle- 

mache 

482 WilHam Cansfield Lord Gerard 

483 Lionel Sackville Lord Sackville 

484 Charles Bowyer Lord Norton 

485 Percy Lord Shute. (Viscourd 

Baiiington) 

486 William Lord Watson. {A Lord of 

Appeal in Ordinari/) 

487 Lawrence Hesketh Lord Haldon • 

488 Ivor Bertie Lord Wimborne 

489 Arthur Edward Lord Ardilaun 

490 Charles Wallace Alexander Napier 

Lord Lamington 

491 Arthur William Lord Trevor 

492 Montagu William Lord Rowton 

493 Edward Lord Brabourne 

494 Arthur Oliver Villiers Lord Ampt- 

hill 



495 

496 

497 
498 
499 
500 
501 
502 

503 
504 
505 



506 

507 
508 



509 

510 
511 
512 
513 
514 
515 
516 
517 
518 
519 

520 
521 

522 
523 
524 
525 
526 
527 
528 
529 

530 
531 
532 

533 
534 



William Montagu Lord Tweeddale. 
{Marquees of Tweeddale) 

William Ulick Tristram Lord 
Howth. {Earl of Howth) 

Donald James Lord Reay 

Harcourt Lord Derwent 

Henry James Lord Hothfield 

Edward Lord Tweedmouth 

Hallam Lord Tennyson 

James Lord Strathspey. {Earl of 

SeafiM) 
John William Lord Monk Bretton 
Walter Henry Lord Northbourne 

Arthur Saunders William Charles 
Fox Lord Sudley. {Earl of 
Arran) 

John Robert William Lord de Vesci. 
{Viscount de Vesci) 

Marmaduke Francis Lord Herries 
Mervyn Edward Lord Powerscourt. 
{In anotlier place as Viscount 
Paicerscourt) 
Frederic Lord Northington. {Lord 

Henley) 
Nathaniel Mayer Lord Rothschild 
John Lord Revelstoke 
Robert Lord Monkswell 
Arthur Lord Hobhouse 
Ralph Robert Wheeler Lord Lingen 
Edward Lord Ashboiurne 
Rowland Lord Saint Oswald 
Robert James Lord Wantage 
Robert Wilfrid Lord Deramore 
Henry John Lord Montagu of Beau- 
lieu 
Sidney Herbert Lord Elphinstone 
Charles John Lord Cohnlle of Ciil- 
ross 

Farrer Lord Herschell 
Charles William Lord Hillingdon 
Charles Lord Hindlip 
Edmund Lord Grimthorpe 
Richard de Aquila Lord Stalbridge 
William Lord Kensington 
Michael Arthur Lord Burton 
John Glencaim Carter Lord Hamil- 
ton of Dalzell 
Thomas Lord Brassey 
Henry Lord Thring 

Edward Lord Macnaghten. {A 
Lord, of Appeal in Ordinary) 

Robert Lord Connemara 

Claude Lord Bowes. {Earl of 
Strathmare and Kinghcm) 



XXV 111 



ROLL OF THE LORDS SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL. 



536 
537 
538 
539 
540 
541 
542 
543 
544 

545 
546 
547 
548 
549 

5-)0 

551 



rrvO 



553 
554 
555 

556 
557 

558 
559 
560 
561 
562 
563 
564 
565 
566 
567 
568 
569 
570 
571 

572 
573 
574 
575 
576 
577 
578 
579 
580 



George Edmund Milnes Lord 
Monckton. (Viscount Galwarj) 

John Lord Saint Levan 

James Douglas Lord Magheramorne 

William George Lord Armstrong 

George Limbrey Lord Basing 

William Henry Lord de Ramsey 

William Meriton Lord Cheylesmore 

Egerton Lord Addington 

John Savile Lord Savile 

Michael Lord Morris. {A Lord of 
Appeal in Ordinary) 

William Ventris Lord Field 

Edward Cecil Lord Iveagh 

George Lord Mount Stephen 

Samuel Lord Masham 

Frederick Sleigh Lord Roberts of 

Kandahar 
Arthur AVilliam Acland Lord Hood 

of Avalon 

William Lord Kelvin 

Henry John Lord Rookwood 

Alexander Burns Lord Shand 

George Lord Ashcombe 

Archibald Campbell Lord Blyths- 
wood 

Thomas Lord Crawshaw 

William Arahurst Lord Amherst of 
Hackney 

Thomas Wodehouse Lord Newton 

Henry Lyle Lord Dunleath 

John Allan Lord Llangattock 

George James Lord Playfair 

Cyril Lord Battersea 

Ernest Ambrose Lord Swansea 

Thomas Henry Lord Farrer 

John Campbell Lord Overtoun 

Cecil Geo. Savile Lord Hawkesbury 

Arthur Lord Stanmore 

Stuart Lord Rendel 

Reginald Earle Lord Welby 

Charles Lord Russell of Killowen 

Horace Lord Davey. {A Lord of 
Appeal in Ordinary) 

Henry Brougham Lord Loch 

Sydney James Lord Wandsworth 

James Lord Ashton 

Herbert Coulstoun Lord Burghclere 

Henry Lord James 

David Robert Lord Rathmore 

Henry Lord Pirbright 

Algernon Lord Glenesk 

Henry Hucks Lord Aldenham 



581 Edward Lord Heneage 

582 John Wingfield Lord Malcolm of 

Poltalloch 

583 Hercules Arthur Temple Lord Ros- 

mead 

584 Alexander Smith , Lord Kinneiir 

585 Joseph Lord Lister 

586 David Lord Fairlie. {Earl of 

Glasgow) 

587 Hugh Riohard Lord Dawnay. 

(discount Down) 

588 Henry Charles Lord Ludlow 

589 Hans Wellesley Lord Holm 

Patrick 

590 John Lord Inverclyde 

591 Donald Alexander Lord Strathcona 

and Mount Royal 

592 William Wallace Lord Newlands 

593 Horace Brand Lord Farquhar 

594 Josslyn Francis Lord Muncast«r 

595 Arthur Lawrence Lord Hali- 

burton 

596 Horatio Herbert Lord Kitchener of 

Khartoum 

597 Philip Henry Wodehouse T^rd 

Currie 

598 .Joseph Russell Lord Glanusk 

599 Henry Lord Brampton 

600* Robert Thornhaugh Lord Cran- 
worth 

* This number is in excess of the total 
Number of Lords Spiritual and Temporal, 
the Discrepancy being caused by the 
following Lords being twice named in 
the Roll : 

Earl of Halsbury as Lord High Chancellor 
and as Earl of Halsbury (Nos. 8 and 197) 

Duke of Devonshire as Lord President and 
as Duke of Devonshire (Nos. 10 and 20) 

Viscount Cross as Lord Privy Seal and as 
Viscount Cross (Nos. 11 and 227) 

Duke of Northumberland as Duke of 
Northumberland and as Lord Lovaine 
(Nos. 27 and 310) 

Earl of Pembroke and Montgomery as 
Lord Steward and as Earl of Pembroke 
and Montgomery (Nos. 56 and 60) 

Earl of Lovelace as Earl of Lovelace and Jis 
Lord Wentworth (Nos 169 and 269) 

Elarl de Montalt as Earl de Montalt and as 
Viscount Haward en (Nos. 190 and 208) 

Viscount Powerscourt as Viscount 
Powerscourt and as Lord Powers- 
court (Nos. 206 and oOS) 

Lord Hopetoun as Lord Chamberlain and 
as Lord Hopetoun (Nos. 257 and 355) 



HOUSE OF COMMONS. 



ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS 



IN THE 



Sixth Skssion of the Twenty-Sixth Parliament 



OF 



THE UNITP]!) KINGDOM AND THE FOURTEENTH OF 

QUEEN VICTORIA. 



(Co/npilrd at the Ojtfning of thr Srsswu.) 



Abraham, William (Glamorgan, Rhondda) 

Abraham, William (Cork Co., N. East) 

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A., Bt. (Somerset, 
Wellington) 

Aird, John (Paddington, N.) 

Allan, William (Gateshead) 

Allen, William (Newcastle-under-Lyme) 

Allhusen, Aug. Henry E. (Salisbury) 

Allison, Robert A. (Cumberland, Eskdale) 

Allsopp, Hon. George H. (Worcester) 

Ambrose, Robert (Mayo, West) 

Anson, Sir William R., Bt. (Oxford Uni- 
versity) 

Anstruther, Henry T. (St. Andrews 
Burghs) 

Arch, Joseph (Norfolk, N.W.) 

Archdale, Edward M. (Fermanagh, N.) 

Arnold, Alfred (Halifax) 

Arnold-Forster, Hugh 0. (Belfast, West) 

Arrol, Sir William (Ayrshire, South) 

Asher, Alexander (Elgin Burghs) 

Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis (Sheffield, 
Ecclesall) 

Ashton, Thomas Gair (Beds, Luton) 
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. (Fife, East) 



Atherley -Jones, Llewellvn (Durham, 

N.W.) 

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John (Londonderry, 
North) 

Austin, Sir John, Bt. (York, W.R., 
Osgoldcross) 

Austin, Michael (Limerick, West) 



Bagot, Capt. Josceline F. (Westmoreland, 
Kendal) 

Bailey, James (Newington, Walworth) 

Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness) 

Bainbridge, E. (Lincoln, Gainsborough) 

Baird, John G. A. (Glasgow, Central) 

Baker, Sir John (Portsmouth) 

Balcarres, Lord (Lancashire, Chorley) 

Baldwin, Alfred (Worcester, Bewdley) 

Balfour, Rt. Hon. Arthur J. (Manchester, 
East) 

Balfour, Rt. Hon. Gerald William (Leeds, 

Central) 
Balfour, Rt. Hon. John B. (Clackmannan 

and Kinross) 

Banbury, Fred. George (Camberwell, 
Peckham) 

Banes, Major George E. (West Ham,. 
South) 



XXX 



ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS. 
Barlow, John Eramott (Somerset, Frome) Brigg, John (York, W.R., Keighley) 



Barnes, Fred. Gorell (Kent, Faversham) 

Barry, Rt. Hon. Arthur H. Smith- 
(Hunts, Huntingdon) 

Barry, Edward (Cork Co., South) 

Barry, Sir Francis Tress, Bt. (Windsor) 

Bartley, George C. T. (Islington, N.) 

Barton, Dunbar Plunket (Armagh, Mid) 

Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Gloucester, 
Cirencester) 



Broadhurst, Henry (Leicester) 

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John (Surrey, 
Guildford) 

Brookfield, Arthur M. (Sussex, Rye) 

Brown, Alex. Hargreaves (Shropshire, 
Wellington) 

Brunner, Sir John T., Bt. (Cheshire, 
Northwich) 

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James (Aberdeen, South) 



Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire, Chester- Brymer, Wm. Ernest (Dorset, South) 



field) 
Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. H., Bt. (Bristol, 

w.) 

Beach, William W. B. (Hants, Andover) 

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. (Northum- 
berland, Hexham) 

Beckett, Ernest W. (York, N.R., AVhitby) 

Begg, F. Faithfull (Glasgow, St. Rollox) 

Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe (Derby) 

Bentinck, Lord Henry (Nottingham, S.) 

Beresford, Lord Charles (York) 

Bethell, Commander Geo. R. (York, E.R., 
Holdemess) 

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. (Bethnal Green, 

N.E.) 
Biddulph, Michael (Herefordshire, Ross) 

Bigwood, James (Middlesex, Brentford) 

Bill, Charles (Staffordshire, Leek) 

Billson, Alfred (Halifax) 

Birrell, Augustine (Fife, West) 

Blake, Edward (Longford, S.) 

Blakiston-Houston, J. (Down, North) 

Blundell, Col. H. B. H. (Lancashire, Ince) 



Buchanan, Thomas R. (Aberdeenshire, 

F^t) 

Bullard, Sir Harry (Norwich) 

Burdett-Coutts, W. L. A. B. (West- 
minster) 

Bums, John (Battersea) 

Burt, Thomas (Morpeth) 

Butcher, John George (York) 

Buxton, Sydney C. (Tower Hamlets, 
Poplar) 

C 

Caldwell, James (Lanark, Mid) 

Cameron, Sir Charles, Bt. (Glasgow, 
Bridgeton) 

Cameron, Robert (Durham, Houghton-le- 
Spring) 

Campbell, Rt. Hon. James A. (Glasgow 
and Aberdeen Universities) 

Campbell, James H. M. (Dublin, St. 
Stephen's Green) 

Campbell-Bannerman, Rt. Hon. Sir H. 
(Stirling Burghs) 

Carew, J. Laurence (Dublin, College 
Green) 



Bolitho, Thomas Bedford (Cornwall, St. ' Carlile, William Walter (Bucks, N.) 



Ives) 



Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson, Bt. (Edin- 



Bolton, Thomas Dolling (Derbyshire, N. burgh, Midlothian) 

4, , , .^T . 1 -r^ V Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward (Dublin Uni- 

Bond, Edward (Nottmgham, E.) versity) 

Bqusof, H. Cosmo 0. (Surrey, AVimble- , Carvill, Patrick G. H. (Newry) 



don) 

Boscawen, Arth. S. T. Grimth (Kent, 
Tunbridge) 

Boulnois, Edmund (Marylebone, E.) 

Bousfield, William R. (Hackney, N.) 

Bowles, Major Henry F. (Middlesex, En- 
field) 

Bowles, Thomas Gibson (Lynn Regis) 
Brassey, Albert (Oxon, Banbury) 



Causton, Richard Knight (Southwark, 
West) 

Cavendish, Richard F. (Lancashire, North 
Lonsdale) 

Cavendish, Victor C. W. (Derbyshire, 

West) 

Cawley, Frederick (Lanes, Prestwich) 

Cayzer, Sir Charles Wm. (Barrow-in 
Furness) 



ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS. 



XXXI 



Cecil, Evelyn (Herts, Hertford) 

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) 

Chaloner, Capt. Richard G. W. (Wilts, 
Westbury) 



Crean, Eugene (Queen's Co., Ossory) 

Crilly, Daniel (Mayo, North) 

Cripps, Charles Alfred (Gloucester, Stroud) 



I Crombie, John William (Kincardineshire) 
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birmingham, j Cj-^gg^ Alexander (Glasgow, Camlachie) 

W J 

_„ '^ . _ ^ ,,^ , . I Cross, Herbert Shepherd (Bolton) 

Chamberlam, J.Austen (Worcestershire,:^ ,, itt-h- t^ u /xt i 

■cv-x\ ^ Cruddas, William Donaldson (Newcastle- 



East) 



on-Tyne) 
Cubitt, Hon. Henry (Surrey, Reigate) 
Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal, N.) 
Curran, Thomas (Sligo, South) 



Channing, Francis A. (Northampton, 
East) 

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry (Lincolnshire, 
Sleaford) 

Charrington, Spencer (Tower Hamlets, \ Currie, Sir Donald (Perthshire, West) 
Mile End) i Curzon, Viscount (Bucks, Wycombe) 

Chelsea, Viscount (Bury St. Edmunds) 
Clancy, John J. (Dublin Co., North) 
Clare, Octavins Leigh (Lancashire, Eccles) 
Clark, Dr. Gavin B. (Caithness) 
Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth) 
Clough, Walter Owen (Portsmouth) 

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. (Ayrshire, 
North) 

Coddington, Sir William, Bt. (Blackburn) 

Coghill, Douglas H. (Stoke-upon-Trent) 

Cohen, Benjamin L. (Islington, E.) 

Collery, Bernard (Sligo, North) 

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse (Birmingham, 
Boraesley) 

Colomb, Sir John (Great Yarmouth) 

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. A. (Gloucester, 
Thornbury) 

Colyille, John (Lanark, N.K) 

Commins, Andrew (Cork Co., S. East) 

Compton, Lord Alwyne F. (Beds, Biggles- 
wade) 

Condon, Thomas J. (Tipperary, E.) 

Cook, Frederick Lucas (Lambeth, 
Kenninei^n) 

Cooke. C. W. LdcHffe (Hereford) 

Corbet, William J. (Wicklow, East) 

Corbett, Arch. Cameron (Glasgow, 
Tradeston) 

Comwallis, F. S. Wykeham (Maidstone) 

Cotton-JodreD, Col. E. T. D, (Cheshire, 
Wirral) 

Courtney, Rt. Hon. Leonard H. (Com- 
wall, Bodmin) 

Cox, Irwin Edward R (Middlesex, 
Harrow) 

Cranbome, Viscount (Rochester) 



Dalbiac, Major Philip H. (Camberwell, N.) 

Dalkeith, Earl of (Roxburgh) 

Dalrymple, Sir Charles, Bt. (Ipswich) 

Daly, James (Monaghan, South) 

Dalziel, James H. (Kirkcaldy Burghs) 

Davenport, Wm. Bromley- (Cheshire, 
Macclesfield) 

Davies, Col. Sir Horatio David (Chatham) 

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) 

Davitt, Michael (Mayo, South) 

Denny, Col. John M. (Kilmarnock 
Burghs) 

Dewar, Arthur (Edinburgh, South) 

Dickson-Poynder, Sir J., Bt. (Wilts, 
Chippenham) 

I^gl>y> J- Kenelm Wingfield- (Dorset, 
Noi 



)rth) 

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir C. W., Bt. (Glouces- 
ter, Forest of Dean) 

Dillon, John (Mayo, East) 

Disraeli, Coningsby R. (Cheshire, Altrin- 
cham) 

Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. D., Bt. (Middlesex, 
Uxbridge) 

Donelan, Capt. A. J. C. (Cork, East) 

Donkin, Richard Sim (Tynemouth) 

Doogan, P. C. (Tyrone, East) 

Dorington, Sir John E., Bt. (Gloucester, 
Tewkesbury) 

Doughty, George (Great Grimsby) 

Douglas, Rt. Hon. Aretas Akers- (Kent, 
St. Augustine's) 

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark, North-west) 

Douglas-Pennant, Hon, Ed. S. (NorthantF, 
South) 



xxxii ALPHA B?ynCAL LIST OF MEMBERS. 

Doxford, William Theodore (Sunderland) 

Drage, Geoffrey (Derby) 

Drucker, G. C. Adolphus (Northampton) 

Duckworth, James (Lancashire, Middleton) 

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. (Cumber- 
land, Egremont) 

Dunn, Sir William, Bt. (Paisley) 

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H., Bt. (Kent, 



FitzGerald, Sir Robt. U. Penrose-, Bt. 

(Cambridge) 

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond G. Pettv 
(Wilts, Cricklade) 

FitzWygram, Gen. Sir Fred. W., Bt 
(Hants, Fareham) 

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue (Yorkshire, 
Shipley) 

Flavin, Michael Joseph (Kerry, North) 



Dartford) i Fletcher, Sir Henry, Bt. (Sussex, Lewes) 

p, i Flower, Ernest (Bradford, W.) 

Edwards, Owen Morgan (Merioneth- j ^'>'""' '^^'^^^^ C- <<^°'''^ N**"^**) 
shire) Folkestone, Viscount (Wilts, Wilton) 

Egerton, Hon. Alan de Tatton (Cheshire, ; Forster, Henry Wm. (Kent, Sevenoaks) 

Knutsford) I Foster, Col. William Henry (Lancashire, 

Elliot, Hon. Arthur R. D. (Durham) : Lancaster) 

Ellis, John Edward (Nottingham, Rush- Foster Harry Seymour (Suffolk, Ix)wes. 



cliffe) 



toft) 



Emmott, Alfred (Oldham) i ^^^^^'^^ ^^^ ^' ^^'^^^^^ (^^^^3^' llkesU>n) 

Engledew, Charles John (Kildare, North) ^''^amV^^' E^s^^ ^'' ^* ^* (Wolver- 

Esmonde, Sir T. Grattan, Bt. (Kerry, ^ p^ j^^ j^ p^^^^.^ .^^ . County, 

^^^^«^) Tullamore) ^ ^ 

Evans, Samuel Thomas (Glamorgan, Mid) Yvv, Lewis (Bristol, N.) 
Evans, Sir Francis H. (Southampton) 

Evershcd, Sydney (Staffordshire, Burton) ^ 

Galloway, William Johnson (Manchester, 
F S.W.) 

Fardel), Sir T. George (Paddington, S.) Garfit, William (Boston) 

Farquharson, Dr. Robert (Aberd(?enshire, Gedge, Sydney (Walsall) 

West) i Gibbons, John L. (Wolverhampton, S.) 

Farrell, James P. (Cavan, West) • Gibbs, Hon. Alban George H. (London) 

Farrcll, Thomas Joseph (Kerry, South) Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (Herts, St. Albans) 

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E. (Hunts, Gibney, James (Meath, North) 

^T^^^y) Giles, Charies Tyrrell (Cambridge, Wis- 
Fen wick, Charles (Northumberland, bech) 

Wansbeck) Gilhoolv, James (Cork Co., West) 

^^BuiTs) "^^""''^^"^ ^' ^^''"'^'' (^^^^^ Gilliat, John Saunders (Lanes., Widnes) 

_ T^ TT o- T T». /xf Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J. (Leeds, 

Fergusson, Rt. Hon. Sir J., Bt. (Man- West) 

ohfistsr N F ^ 

y^r 1 -1^ X ' /Air r J o ^i-\ (xoddard, Daniel Ford (Ips^rich) 
Ffrench, Peter (AA exford, South) i o ^ . y^u-ii • . ^ 

-,.,,., T^ J J ,o T? xi. X Godson, Sir Augustus r. (Kiddermmster) 

Field, Adm. Edward (Sussex, Eastbourne) , ,, ' , ,, ,, ,^ ^t- i , 

7^. ij 1T-11- /Tx 1.T Oi. T> 4. • 1 \ Gold, Charles (Lssex, baffron AN alden) 
Field, W ilham (Dubhn, St. Patrick) ' \ . ' ^ 

„. , ^ XT /T5 xi j\ Goldsworthv, Mai. -Gen. \\ . i. (Hammer- 

Finch, George H. (Rutland) smith) 

Finlay, Sir Robert B. (Inverness Burghs) ^^^^^^^ ^^^ j^j^^ j,^^^..^^^ ^^^^-^ ^^^ 
Finucane, John (Limerick, East) Nairn) 

Firbank, Joseph Thomas (Hull, East) Gorst, Kt. Hon. Sir J. Eldon (Cambridge 
Fisher, William Hayes (Fulham) University) 

Fison, Frederick William (York, W.R., Goschen, lit. Ihm. (U;orge J. (St. Geurgos. 
Doncaster) Hanover S«iujire) 



ALPHABETICAL 

Groschen, George J., jun. (Sussex, East 
Grinstead) 

Goulding, Edward A. (Wilts, Devizes) 

Gourley, Sir Edward T. (Sunderland) 

Graham, Henry K. (St. Pancras, West) 

Gray, Ernest (West Ham, North) 

Green, Walford Davis (Wednesbury) 

Greene, Henry David (Shrewsbury) 

Greene, Walter Raymond (Cambs., 
Chesterton) 

Gretton, John (Derbyshire, South) 

Greville, Capt. Hon. Ronald H. F. (Brad- 
ford, East) 

Grey, Sir Edward, Bt. (Northumberland, 
Berwick) 

Griffith, Ellis J. (Anglesey) 

Gull, Sir W. Cameron, Bt. (Devon, Barn- 
staple) 

Gully, Rt. Hon. William C. (Carlisle) 

Gunter, Col. Robert (York, W.R., Bark- 
ston Ash) 

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton (Norfolk, 
North) 

H 

Haldane, Richard B. (Haddington) 

Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles (Finsbury, 
Holbom) 

Halsey, Thomas F. (Herts, Watford) 

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George (Middle- 
sex, EaUng) 

Hammond, John (Carlow) 

Hamond, Sir Charles F. (Newcastle-upon- 
Tyne) 

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W. (Preston) 

Hanson, Sir Reginald, Bt. (London) 

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. G. Vernon 
(Monmouthshire, W.) 

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) 

Hare, Thomas L. (Norfolk, S.W.) 

Harrington, Timothy (Dublin, Harbour) 

Harwood, George (Bolton) 

Haslett, Sir James H. (Belfast, North) 

Hatch, Ernest F. George (Lancashire, 
Gorton) 

Bbyden, John P. (Roscommon, South) 

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Scale- (Devon, 
Ashburton) 

Hazell, Walter (Leicester) 

Healy, Maiu*ice (Cork) 



LIST OF MEMBERS. xxxiu 

Healy, Thomas J. (Wexford, North) 

Healy, Timothy M. (Louth, North) 

Heath, James (Staffordshire, N.W.) 

Heaton, J. Henniker (Canterbury) 

Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H. (Wick 
Burghs) 

Helder, Augustus (Whitehaven) 

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. Hare (Tyrone, N.) 

Henderson, Alexander (Staffordshire, 
West) 

Hermon-Hodge, Robert T. (Oxon, Henley) 

Hickman, Sir Alfred (Wolverhampton, 
W.) 

Hill, Capt. Arthur (Down, West) 

Hill, Rt. Hon. A. Staveley (Staffordshire, 
Kingswinford) 

Hill, Col. Sir E. Stock (Bristol, South) 

Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampstead) 

Hoare, Sir Samuel, Bt. (Norwich) 

Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, East) 

Hcgan, James Francis (Tipperary, Mid) 

Holden, Sir Angus, Bt. (York, E.R., 
Buckrose) 

Holland, Hon.Xionel R. (Tower Hamlets, 
Bow, etc.) 

Holland, William H. (York, W.R., 
Rotherham) 

Hornby, Sir William Henry, Bt. (Black- 
burn) 

Horniman, Frederick John (Penryn and 
Falmouth) 

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry, Bt. (Man- 
chester, N.W.) 

Houston, Robert P. (Liverpool, West 
Toxteth) 

Howard, Joseph (Middlesex, Tottenham) 

Howell, Wm. Tudor (Denbigh Boroughs) 

Howorth, Sir Henry H. (Salford,^South) 

Hozier, Hon. James H. C. (Lanark, 
South) 

Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn (Lambeth, Brix- 
ton) 

Hudson, George B. (Herts, Hitchin) 

Hughes, Col. Edwin (Woolwich) 

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C. (Mont- 
gomery) 

Hutchinson, Major [G. W. Grice- (Aston 
Manor) 

Button, Alfred E. (York, W.R., Morley) 
Hutton, John (Yorkshire, Richmond) 



.iii-,'j 



xxxiv ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS. 

J I Laurie, L.-Gen. John W. (Pembroke and 

Jackson, Rt. Hon. William L. (Leeds, 



North) 

Jacoby, James Alfred (Derbyshire, Mid) 

Jameson, Major J. Eustace (Clare, West) 

Jebb, Richard Claverhouse (Cambridge 
University) 

Jeffreys, Arthur F. (Hants, North) 

Jenkins, Sir John Jones (Carmarthen 
Boroughs) 

Jessel, Capt. Herbert M. (St. Pancras, 
South) 

Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez E. (Leicester, 
Loughborough) 

Johnston, William (Belfast, South) 

Johnstone, John Heywood (Sussex, 
Horsham) 

Joicey, Sir James, Bt. (Durham, Chester- 
le-Street) 

Jolliffe, Hon. H. Geo. Hylton (Somerset, 
Wells) 



Haverfordwest) 
Lawrence, Sir Edwin Durning-, Bt. 
(Cornwall, Truro) 

Lawrence, William F. (Liverpool, Aber- 

eromby) 
Lawson, John Grant (York, N.R., Thirsk) 

Lawson, Sir Wilfrid, Bt. (Cumberland, 

Cockermouth) 
Lea, Sir Thomas, Bt. (Londonderry, S.) 

Lecky, Rt. Hon. William E. H. (Dublin 

University) 
Lees, Sir Elliott, Bt. Birkenhead) 

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Lancashire, Ac- 

crington) 
Leigh-Bennett, Henry C. (Surrey, Chertsey) 

Leighton, Stanley (Shropshire, Oswestry) 

Leng, Sir John (Dundee) 

Leuty, Thomas R. (Leeds, East) 

Lewis, John Herbei*t (Flint Boroughs) 

Llewellyn, Evan Henry (Somerset, North) 



Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea District) I^lewelyn, Sir J. T. DiUwyn-, Bt. (Swansea 

Town) 



Jones, William (Carnarvon, Arfon) 
Jordan, Jeremiah (Fermanagh, South) 

K 

Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hon. Sir U., Bt. 
(Lancashire, Clitheroe) 

Kearley, Hudson E. (Devonport) 

Kemp, George (Lancashire, Heywood) 



Lloyd-George, David (Carnarv^on, etc.) 

Lockwood, Lt. - Col. Amelius (Essex, 
Epping) 

Loder, Gerald W. E. (Brighton) 

Logan, John William (Leicester, Har- 
borough) 

Long, Col. Charles W. (Worcestershire, 
Evesham) 

Kennaw^ay, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H., Bt. Long, Rt. Hon. Walter H. (Liverpool, 



(Devon, Honiton) 
Kenyon, James (Bury, Lancashire) 



West Derbv) 
Lopes, Henry Y. Buller (Grantham) 



Kenyon-Slaney, Col. Wm. (Shropshire, i Lome, Rt. Hon. Marquess of (Man- 
Newport) ' Chester, S.) 
Keswick, William (Surrev, Epsom) ^ough, Thomas (Islington, W.) 
Kilbride, Denis (Galway,^N.) Lowe, Francis W. (Birmingham, Edgbas- 
Kimber, Henry (Wandsworth) 

King, Sir H. Seymour (Hull, Central) Lowther, lit. lion. ,).an,es William (Cum- 

Kinloch, Sir John G. S., Bt. (Perthshire, berland, Penrith) 

^®^) Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent, Thanet) 

ingdon) 
iOndon 



ton) 
Lowles, John (Shoreditch, Haggerston) 



^°^/ Lowther, Kt. lion. James (Kent, Tl 

Kitson, Sir James, Bt. (York, W.R., ' l ^j ^^^,^^^^^ Kirkman (Berks, Abin 

Colne Valley) , W , ,, tt c- t t^ /t 

^^ , -. ,0. If 1 ^T- X Lubbock, Kt. Hon. Sir J,, Bt. (L 

Knowles, Lees (Salford, \\ est) , Univer^itv) 



L 



Labouchere, Henry (Northampton) 

Lafone 

Lambei 

Langley, Batty (Sheffield, Attercliffe) 



y) 

Lucas-Shadwell, William (Hastings) 
Luttrell, H. C. Fownos (Devon, Tavistock) 



\if 1 /u i-i, 1 T> J \ Lvell, Sir Leonard, Bt. (Orkney and 

, Alfred (Southwark, Bei-mondsey) i "01, ,^.1. i\ > \ J 

rt, George (Devon, South Molton) I Ly^^^n^^^^ pj^,,, ^,^,^,,1 (Wai-wick and 



Leamington) 



ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS. 



XXXV 



M 



3se, Daniel (Monaghan, North) 

ney, W. Ellison (Antrim, South) 

la, J. Gumming (Southwark, 
erhithe) 

nnell, Dr. Mark A. (Queen's 
ity, Leix) 

r, David (Liverpool, Kirkdale) 

1, James M. (Cardiff) 

3, Sir John W., Bt. (Lancashire, 
ford) 

ill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) 

lur, Charles (Liverpool, Exchange) 

lur, William A. (Cornwall, St. 
ell) 

lont. Col. James (Antrim, East) 

lont, Harry L. B. (Cambridge, 
narket) 

an, Michael (Down, South) 

hy, Justin (Longford, North) 

1, George (Edinburgh, East) 

nott, Patrick (Kilkenny, N. 

n, William (Edinburgh, Central) 

5, Richard (Louth, South) 

b, Edward (Armagh, South) 

b, Patrick A. (Leitrim, North) 

, Sir Lewis, Bt. (Edinburgh, West) 

na, Reginald (Monmouth) 

►p, James (Stirlingshire) 

n, Charles P. Bright (Leicester, 
orth) 

1, John (Sutherland) 
3n, Frederick (Sheffield, Bright- 
John Henry (Lancashire, Rossen- 

[1, Ian (Suffolk, Stowmarket) 

ille, Francis (Tipperary, South) 

s. Lord Edward William (Leicester- 
Melton) 

Sir J. Blundell, Bt. (Camberwell, 
ich) 

, Sir Frederick T., Bt. (York, 
, Hallamshire) 

Harry H. (Tower Hamlets, St. 
^e's) 

Richard Biddulph (Worcester, 
wich) 

Mainwaring, Hon. W. F. B. (Fins- 
Central) 



Maxwell, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert E., Bt. 
(Wigton) 

Mellor, Col. John James (Lancashire, 
Eadcliffe) 

Mellor, Rt. Hon. John W. (^ork, W.R., 
Sowerby) 

Melville, Beresford Valentine (Stockport) 

Mendl, Sigismund, F. (Plymouth) 

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H., Bt. (Stafford, 
Handsworth) 

Middlemore, John T. (Birmingham, N.) 

Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J., Bt. (Radnor) 

Mildmay, Francis B. (Devon, Totnes) 

Milner, Sir Fred G., Bt. (Notts, Basset- 
law) 

Milton, Viscount (Wakefield) 

Milward, Col. Victor (Warwick, Stratford- 
upon-Avon) 

Minch, Matthew J. (Kildare, South) 

Molloy, Bernard C. (King's Co., Birr) 

Monckton, Edward Philip (Northants, 
North) 

Monk, Charles James (Gloucester) 

Montagu, Hon. John Scott (Hants, New 
Forest) 

Montagu, Sir Saml, Bt. (Tower Hamlets, 
Whitechapel) 

Moon, Edward Robert P. (St. Pancras, 
North) 

Moore, Arthur J. (Londonderry) 

Moore, William (Antrim, North) 

More, Robert Jasper (Shropshire, Lud- 
low) 

Morgan, Col. Hon. Fred. C. (Monmouth- 
shire, S.) 

Morgan, John Lloyd (Carmarthen, West) 

Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr Tydvil) 

Morley, Charles (Brecknock) 

Morley, Rt. Hon. John (Montrose, etc.) 

Morrell, George Herbert (Oxon, Wood- 
stock) 

Morris, Samuel (Kilkenny, South) 
Morrison, Walter (York, W.R., Skipton) 
Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford) 
Morton, Edward J. C. (Devonport) 

Moss, Samuel (Denbighshire, East) 

Moulton, John Fletcher (Cornwall, 
Launceston) 

Mount, William G. (Berks, Newbury) 
c 2 



xxxvi ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS. 



Muntz, Philip Albert (Warwickshire, 
Tamworth) 

Murnaghan, George (Tyrone, Mid.) 

^lurray, Rt. Hon Andrew Graham 
(Buteshire) 

Murray, Charles James (Coventry) 

Murray, Col. C. Wyndham (Bath) 

Myers, William Henry (Winchester) 

N 
Newark, Viscount (Notts, Newark) 



Pease, Sir Joseph W., Bt. (Durham,, 
Barnard Castle) 

Pender, Sir James, Bt. (Northants, Mid) 

Penn, John (Lewisham) 

Percy, Earl (Kensington, South) 

Perks, Robert W. (Lincolnshire, Louth) 

Philipps, John W. (Pembroke) 

Phillpotts, Capt. Arthur S. (Devon,. 
Torquay) 

Pickard, Benjamin (York, W.R., Nor- 
manton) 



Newdigate, Francis Alex. (Warwickshire, i Pickersgill, Edward H. (Bethnal Green, 

Jsuneaton) ' SWT 

Nicholson, William G. (Hants, Peters- 



field) 
Nicol, Donald N. (Argyll) 



Pierpoint, Robert (Warrington) 

Pilkington, Sir George A. (Lancashire,. 
Southport) 



Northcote, Hon. Sir Stafford, Bt. (Exeter) pukington, Lt.-Col. Richard (Lancashire, 
Norton, Capt. Cecil W. (Newington, Newton) 



West) 
Nussey, Thomas Willans (Pontefract) 

o 

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork) 

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) 

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, North) 

O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal, East) 

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, West) 

O'Connor, Thomas P. (Liverpool, Scot- 
land) 

O'Keeffe, Francis A. (Limerick) 

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, North) 

Oldroyd, Mark (Dewsbury) 

O'Malley, William (Galway, Connemara) 

O'NeUl, Hon. R. Torrens (Antrim, Mid) 

Orr-Ewing, Charies Lindsay (Ayr Burghs) 



Palmer, Sir Charles M., Bt. (Durham, 
Jarrow) 

Palmer, George William (Reading) 

Parkes, Ebenezer (Birmingham, Central) 

Pamell, John Howard (Meath, South) 

Paulton, James M. (Durham, Bishop 
Auckland) 

Pearson, Sir Weetman D., Bt. (Colchester) 

Pease, Alfred Edward (Yorkshire, Cleve- 
land) 

Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington) 

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumberland, Tyne- 
side) 



Pinkerton, John (Galway) 

Pirie, Duncan Vernon (Aberdeen, North) 

Platt-Higgins, Frederick (Salford, North). 

Plunkett, Rt. Hon. Horace C. (Dublin 
Co., South) 

Pollock, Harry Fred (Lincoln, Spalding) 

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp, Bt. (Wigan) 

Power, Patrick J. (Waterford, East) 

Pretvman, Capt. P>nest Geo. (Suffolk,. 
Woodbridge) 

Price, Robert John (Norfolk, East) 

Priestley, Briggs (York, W.R., Pudsey) 

Priestley, Sir William O. (Edinburgh and. 
St. Andrews Universities) 

Provand, Andrew D. (Glasgow, Black- 
friars) 

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward (Mont- 
gomery Boroughs) 

Purvis, Robert (Peterborough) 
Pym, C. Guy (Bedford) 

Q 

Quilter, Sir Cuthbert, Bt. (Suffolk, Sud- 
bury) 

R 

Randell, David (Glamorgan, Gower) 

Rankin, Sir James, Bt, (Herefordshire,. 
Leominster) 

liasch. Major Fred. C. (Essex, S. East) 

Reckitt, Harold James (Lincolnshire, . 
Brigg) 

Redmond, John E. (Waterford) 



ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS. 



XXXVll 



Redmond, William H. K. (Clare, East) 

Reid, Sir Robert T. (Dumfries Burghs) 

Renshaw, Charles B. (Renfrew, West) 

Rentoul, James A. (Down, East) 

Richards, Henry Chas. (Finsbury, East) 

Richardson, Joseph (Durham, S.E.) 

Richardson, Sir Thomas (Hartlepool) 

Rickett, J. Compton (Scarborough) 

Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. White, Bt. 
(Lancashire, Blackpool) 

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T. (Croydon) 

Roberts, John Bryn (Carnarvonshire, 
Eifion) 

Roberts, John Herbert (Denbighshire, 
West) 

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee) 

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney, S.) 

Robinson, Brooke (Dudley) 

Robson, William Snowdon (South Shields) 

Roche, Hon. James (Kerry, East) 

Roche, John (Galway, East) 

RoUit, Sir Albert Kaye (Islington, South) 

Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W. (Bucks, 
Aylesbury) 

Round, James (Essex, Harwich) 
Royds, Clement Molyneux (Rochdale) 
Runciman, Walter (Oldham) 
Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham) 
Russell, Thomas W. (Tyrone, South) 
Rutherford, John (Lancashire, Darwen) 
Ryder, J. H. Dudley (Gravesend) 



Samuel, Harry S. (Tower Hamlets, Lime- 
house) 
Samuel, Jonathan (Stockton) 

Sandys, Col. Thomas M. (Lancashire, 
Bootle) 

Sassoon, Sir Edward, Bt. (Hythe) 

Saunderson, Col. Rt. Hon. E. J. (Armagh, 
North) 

Savory, Sir Joseph, Bt. (Westmoreland, 
Appleby) 

Schwann, Charles E. (Manchester, North) 

Scoble, Sir Andrew R. (Hackney, Central) 

Scott, Charles Prestwich (Lancashire, 
Leigh) 

Scott, Sir Samuel E., Bt. (Marylebone) 
Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln) 
Seton-Karr, Henry (St. Helens) 



Sharpe, Wm. E. Thompson (Kensington, 
North) 

Shaw, Charles Edward (Stafford) 

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick Burghs) 

Shaw-Stewart, M. Hugh (Renfrew, East) 

Shee, James John (Waterford, West) 

Sheehy, David (Galway, South) 

Sidebotham, Joseph W. (Cheshire, Hyde) 

Sidebottom, Tom Harrop (Stalybridge) 
Sidebottom,Wm. (Derbyshire, High Peak) 

Simeon, Sir J. S. Barring ton, Bt. (South- 
ampton) 

Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfar) 

Sinclair, Louis (Essex, Romford) 

Skewes-Cox, Thomas (Surrey, Kingston) 

Smith, Abel Henry (Christchurch) 

Smith, James Parker (Lanark, Partick) 

Smith, Samuel (Flintshire) 

Smith, Hon. W. Fred. D. (Strand, West- 
minster) 

Soames, Arthur W. (Norfolk, South) 

Souttar, Robinson (Dumfriesshire) 

Spencer, Ernest (West Bromwich) 

Spicer, Albert (Monmouth Boroughs) 

Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. (Burnley) 

Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Lancashire, Orms- 
kirk) 

Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset, Bridg- 
water) 
Stanley, Sir Henry M. (Lambeth, N.) 

Stanley, Lord (Lanes., Wes though ton) 
Steadman, William C. (Tower Hamlets, 

Stepney) 
Stephens, Henry Charles (Middlesex, 

Hornsey) 
Stevenson, Francis S. (Suffolk, Eye) 
Stewart, Sir Mark J. McTaggart, Bt. 

(Kirkcudbright) 

Stirling- Maxwell, Sir John M., Bt. (Glas- 
gow, College) 
Stock, James Henry (Liverpool, Walton) 
Stone, Sir John Benjamin (Birmingham,E.) 
Strachey, Edward (Somerset, South) 
Strauss, Arthur (Cornwall, Camborne) 

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley (Essex, 

Maldon) 
Stuart, James (Shoreditch, Hoxton) 
Sturt, Hon. Humphrey N. (Dorset, East) 
Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath, South) 
Sullivan, Timothy D. (Donegal, West) 
Sutherland, Sir T. (Greenock) 



XXX\*U1 



ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS. 



Talbot, Rt. Hon. John G. (Oxford Uni- 
versity) 

Talbot, Lord Edmund (Sussex, Chichester) 

Tanner, Charles K. Deane (Cork Co.> 
Mid) 

Tennant, Harold John (Berwickshire) 

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.) 

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.) 

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr Tydvil) 

Thorburn, Walter (Peebles and Selkirk) 

Thornton, Percy M. (Clapham) 

Tollemache, Henry J. (Cheshire, Eddis- 
bury) 

Tomlinson, William E. M. (Preston) 

Trevelyan, Charles P. (York, W.R., 
Elland) 

Tritton, Charles E. (Lambeth, Norwood) 
Tuite, James (Westmeath, North) 
Tully, Jasper (Leitrim, South) 

U 
Ure, Alexander (Linlithgow) 
L^sborne, Thomas (Essex, Chelmsford) 

V 

Valentia, Viscount (Oxford) 

Veraey, Hon. Rich. Greville (Warwick- 
shire, Rugby) 

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard (Sheffield, 
Central) 

Wallace, Robert (Perth) 

Walrond, Rt Hon. Sir Wm. H., Bt. 
(Devon, Tiverton) 

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, South) 

Walton, Joseph (York, W.R., Bamsley) 

Wanklyn, Jas. Leslie (Bradford, Central) 

Ward, Hon. Robert Arthur (Cheshire, 
Crewe) 

Warde, Lt.-CoL Charles E. (Kent, Med- 
way) 

Warner, T. Court<;nay T. (Staflford, Lich- 
field) 

Warr, Augustus F. (Liverpool, East 
Toxteth) 

Webster, Sir Richard E. (Isle of Wight) 



Wentworth, B. C. Vernon- (Brighton) 

A\Tiarton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd (York, W.R, 
Ripon) 

Whiteley, George (Stockport) 

Whiteley, Herbert (Ashton-under-Lyne) 

Whitmore, Charles A. (Chelsea) 

Whittaker, Thomas P. (York, W.R., Spen 
Valley) 

Williams, John Carvell (Notts, Mansfield) 

Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birmingham, S.) 

Williams, Col. Robert (Dorset, West) 

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord (Lincoln- 
shire, Horncastle) 

Willox, Sir John Archibald (Liverpool, 
Everton) 

Wills, Sir William H., Bt. (Bristol, East) 

Wilson, Charles H. (Hull, West) 

Wilson, Frederick W. (Norfolk, Mid) 

Wilson, Henry Joseph (York, W.R., 
Holmfirth) 

Wilson, John (Falkirk Burghs) 

Wilson, John (Lanark, Go van) 

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) 

Wilson, John William (Worcestershire, 

North) 

Wilson, Joseph Havelock (Middlesbrough) 

Wilson-Todd, WilHam H. (York, N.R., 

Howdenshire) 

Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. Edmond R (Bath) 

Wolff, Gustavus Wilhehn (Belfast, East) 

Woodall, William (Hanley) 

Woodhouse, Sir James T. (Huddersfield) 

Woods, Samuel (Essex, Walthamstow) 

Wortley, Rt. Hon. Charles B. Stuart- 
(Sheffield, Hallam) 

Wrightson, Thomas (St. Pancras, East) 

Wylie, Alexander (Dumbartonshire) 

Wyndham, George (Dover) 

Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H. (Glamorgan, 

South) 

Wvvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy (York, W.R. 
btley) 

Y 

Yerburgh, Robert A. (Chester) 

Young, Comr. Oliver (Berks, Woking- 
ham) 



Wedderl)um, SirWm., Bt. (Banffshire) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) 

Weir, James Galloway (Ross and Cro- ; Younger, William (Lincolnshire, Stam- 
marty) ford) 

Welby, Lieut.-Col. A, C. Earle (Taunton) Yoxall, James Henry (Nottingham, West) 



HOUSE OF COMMONS 



ALPHABETICAL LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES, 



WITH 



NAMES OF MEMBERS 



{Compiled at the opening of the Session.) 



ENGLAND— COUNTIES (234 Members). 



Bedfordshire (2) 

North, or Biggleswade 
South, or Luton ... 

Berkshire (3) 

East, or Wokingham 
North, or Abingdon 
South, or Newbury 

Buckinghamshire (3) 
Mid, or Aylesbury... 
North, or Buckingham 
South, or Wycombo 

Cambridgeshire (3) 
East, or Newmarket 
North, or Wisbech... 
West, or Chesterton 

Cheshire (8) 
Altrinoham 
Crewe 

Eddisbury ... 
Hyde 

Knutsford ... 
Macclesfield 
Northwich ... 
Wirral 

Cornwall (6) 

Mid, or St. Austell 

North-East, or Launceston 

North- West, or Camborne 

South-East, or Bodmin 

Truro 

West, or St. Ives ... 



Compton, Lord Alwyne. 
Ashton, T. Gair. 



Young, Capt. Oliver. 
Loyd, A. K. 
Mount, W. G. 



... Rothschild, Hon. L. W 
.. Carlile, W. W. 
.. Curzon, Viscount. 



M^Calmont, H. L. B. 
Giles, C. T. 
Greene, W. R. 



Disraeli, Coningsby R. 
Ward, Hon. R. A. 
ToUemache, H. J. 
Sidebotham, J. W. 
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton. 
Davenport, W. B. 
Brunner, Sir J. T. 
Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D. 



M* Arthur, W. A. 
Moulton, J. F. 
Strauss, A. 

Courtney, Rt. Hon. L. H. 
Lawrence, Sir E., Bt. 
Bolitho. T. B. 



xl 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 



IH'MHKULAM) (4) 
(\K*koniu>uth 
Miil» or IVnrith 
North,or Eskdalo ... 
NN'i^jit, or Kgreniont 

Ukuhyshikk (7) 
(*liuHtorfiol(l 

lligli IVak 

IlkoHton 

North- KtiHt... 
South 

\Y OMt ... ... . . 

Dkvonhhikk (8) 

I^liiMt, or Iloniton ... 
Mid, or Ashlmrton... 
Nortli-MiiHt, or Tiverton .. 
Nortli, or South Molton .. 
North- Wc^Ht, or Barnstaple 
South, or Totnes ... 
Tonjuuy 
WciHt, or TaviHtock 



Lawson, Sir Wilfrid, Bt. 
Lowther, Rt. Hon. J. W. 
Allison, R. A. 
Duncombe, Hon. H. V. 



Bayley, Thomas. 
Sidebottom, W. 
Foster, Sir B. W. 
Jacoby, J. A. 
Bolton, T. D. 
Gretton, J. 
Cavendish, Victor C. W. 



Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H., Bt. 
Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale- 
Walrond, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir W. H. 
Lambert, G. 

Gull, Sir W. Cameron, Bt. 
Mildmay, F. Bingham. 
Philpotts, Captain A. S. 
Luttrell, H. C. F. 



OoUHKTHIIIIlK (4) 




1 illrlL ••• ... ... ... 


... Sturt, Hon. H. N. 


iNorLii ••• ... ... ... 


... Digby, J. K. W. 


noutii • • • ... ... . . . 


... Brymer, W. F, 


TV %J^U •■• •»• ■•• •«• 


... Williams, CoL R. 


DlIItllAM (8) 




Barnard Castle ... 


. . . Pease, Sir Joseph W., Bt. 


Hinhop Auokhmd ... 


... Paulton, J. M. 


ChimU^r le-Stroot ... 


. . . Joicey, Sir James, Bt. 


Hougliton le-Spring 


... Cameron, Robert. 


ifjirrow 


. . . Palmer, Sir C. Mark, Bt. 


Mid... 


... Wilson, John. 


North- WoHt 


... Atherley-Jones, L. 


South - I^kHt ... 


... Richardson, Joseph. 


Ehhkx (H) 




East, or M ah Ion ... 


. . . Strutt, Hon. C. H. 


Mid, or ChdniHford 


... Usborne, T. 


North-Kast, or Harwich ... 


... Round, J. 


Nortli, or Saffron Walden 


... Gold, C. 


South-KaHt ... 


... Rasch, Major F. C. 


South, or Romford 


... Sinclair, Louis. 


South-\Vi!8t, or Walthamstow 


... Woods, Samuel. 


Went, or Hpping 


... Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. M 



6L0UCRSTEII.SIIIUK (o) 
East, or Cirencester 
Forest of Dean 
Mid, or Stroud 
North, or Tewkesbury 
South, or Thornbury 

Hampshire (5) 

East, or Petersfield 
New Forest 



Bathurst. Hon. A. B. 
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir C. W., Bt. 
Cripps, C. A. 
Dorington, Sir J. E., Bt. 
Colston, C. E. H. A. 

Nicholson, W. G. 

Montague, Hon. J. W. E. D. Scott. 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 



xU 



Hampshire (5)— mi/. 

North, or Basingstoke 
South, or Fareham ... 
West, or Andover ... 

Herefordshire (2) 

North, or Leominster 
South, or Ross 

Hertfordshire (4) 

East, or Hertford ... 
Mid, or St. Albans. . . 
North, or Hitchin ... 
West, or Watford ... 

Huntingdonshire (2) 
North, or Ramsey ... 
South, or Huntingdon 

Isle of Wight (1) 

KlKNT (8) 

East, or St. Augustine's . . 
Isle of Thanet 
Mid, or Med way ... 
North-East, or Faversham 
North- West, or Dartford . . 
South, or Ashford ... 
South-West, or Tunbridge 
West, or Sevenoaks 

Lancashire, North (4) 
Blackpool ... 
Chorley 
Lancaster ... 
North Lonsdale 

Lancashire, North-East (4) 
Accrington ... 
Clitheroe ... 
Darwen 
Rossendale ... 

Lancashire, South-East (8) 

Gorton 
Hey wood ... 
Middleton ... 
Prestwich ... 

Radcliffe-cum-Farn worth .. 
Stretford ... 
Westhoughton 

Lancashire, South- West (7) 
Bootle 

Leigh 
Newton 
Ormskirk ... 
Southport... 
Widnes 



Jeffreys, A. F. 

Fitz Wygram, Gen. Sir F. W. Bt. 

Beach, W. W. Bramston. 



Rankin, Sir Jas., Bart. 
Biddulph, Michael. 



Cecil, Evelyn. 
Gibbs, Hon. Vicary. 
Hudson, G. B. 
Halsey, T. F. 



Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E. 
Barry, Rt. Hon. A. H. Smith- 
Webster, Sir R. E. 



Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-. 
Lowther, Rt. Hon. James. 
Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. 
Barnes, F. Gorell. 
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart, Bt. 
Hardy, Laurence. 
Boscawen A. Griffith-. 
Forster, H. W. 



Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W., Bt. 
Balcarres, Lord. 
Fester, Col. W. H. 
Cavendish, Richd. F. 

Leese, Sir J. F. 

Kav-Shuttleworth. Rt. Hon. Sir U. J. 
Rutherford, John. 
Maden, J. H. 

Clare, 0. L. 
Hatch, E. F. G. 
Kemp, G. 
Duckworth, J. 
Cawley, F. 
Mellor, Col. J. J. 
Maclure, Sir J. W., Bt. 
Stanley, Lord. 



Sandys, Col. T. M. 

Blundell, Col. H. B. Hollinshed. 

Scott, C. P. 

Pilkington, Lt.-Col. R. 

Stanley, Hon. Arthur. 

Pilkington, Sir G. A. 

Gilliat, J. S. 



xlii 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 



Leicestershire (4) 
East, or Melton 
Mid, or Loughborough 
South, or Harborou^ 
West, or Bosworth 

Lincolnshire (7) 

East Lindsey, or Louth ... 
Holland, or Spalding 
North Kesteven, or Sleaford 
North Lindsey, or Brigg ... 
South Kesteven, or Stamford 
South Lindsey, or Horncastle 
West Lindsey, or Gainsborough . . . 

Middlesex (7) 
Brentford ... 

■■ ^Cfc AAAXg^ ••• •■• ■•• ••• 

Enfield 
Harrow 
Hornsey 
Tottenham ... 
Uxbridge ... 

Monmouthshire (3) 

iN ort/o. ... ... ... ... 

South 

YV v/Ov ... ... ... ... 

Norfolk (6) 

•iiias t ... ... ... ... 

X.^Xvl ... ... ... ... ... 

JM ortn ... ... ... ... 

North- West 

oouon ... ... ... ... 

South- West 

Northamptonshire (4) 

i!iasL ... ... ... ... 

Mid 

XI OF Ln ... ... ... ... 

South 

Northumberland (4) 
Berwick-upon-Tweed 
Hexham 
Tyneside ... 
YY ansQecK ... ... ... ... 

Nottinghamshire (4) 
Bassetlaw ... 
Mansfield ... 
xN e *v ariv ... ... ... ... 

RushclifTe ... 

Oxfordshire (3) 

Mid, or Woodstock 
North, or Banbury 
South, or Henley ... 

Rutland (1) 



Manners, Lord E. W. 
Ferguson, J. E. J. 
Logan, J. W. 
McLaren, C. B. B. 



Perks, R. W. 

Pollock, H. F. 

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. H, 

Reckitt, H. J. 

Younger, W. 

Willoughby de Ereshy, Lord. 

Bainbridge, Emerson. 



Bigwood, J. 

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George. 

Bowles, Captain H. F. 

Cox, J. E. Bainbridge. 

Stephens, H. C. 

Howard, J. 

Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. D., Bt. 



M*Kenna, R. 

Morgan, Col. Hon. F. C. 

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Vernon. 



Price, R. J. 
Wilson, F. W. 
Gurdon, Sir W. B. 
Arch, Joseph 
Soames, A. W. 
Hare, T. L. 



Channing, F. A. 
Pender, Sir James, Bt. 
Monckton, E. P. 
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. 



Grey, Sir Edward, Bt. 
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. 
Pease, J. A. 
Fenwick, C. 



Milner, Sir F. G., Bt. 
Williams, J. Carvell. 
Newark, Viscount. 
Ellis, J. E. 

Morrell, G. H. 
Brassey, Albert. 
Hermon-Hodge, R. T. 

Finch, G. H. 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 



xliii 



Shropshire (4) 

Mid, or Wellington 
North, or Newport 
South, or Ludlow . . 
West, or Oswestry . . 

Somersetshire (7) 
Bridgwater. . . 
East 
Frome 
North 
South 
Wells 
West, or Wellington 

Stafforshire (7) 
Burton 
Handsworth 
Kingswinford 
Leek 
Lichfield 
North-West 
West 

Suffolk (5) 

North -East, or Eye 
North, or Lowestoft 
North-West, or Stowmarket 
South-East, or Woodbridge 
South, or Sudbury 

Surrey (6) 

Kingston ... 

Mid, or Epsom 

North East, or Wimbledon 

North-West, or Chertsey ... 

South-East, or Reigate 

South- West, or Guildford 

Sussex (6) 

East, or Rye 

Mid, or Lewes 

North, or East Grinstead ... 

North-West, or Horsham ... 

South, or Eastbourne 

South- West, or Chichester 

Warwickshire (4) 

North-East, or Nuneaton ... 
North, or Tamworth 
South-East, or Rugby 
South- West, or Stratford-on-Avon 

Westmoreland (2) 

North, or Appleby 

South, or Kendal ... 

Wiltshire (5) 

East, or Devizes ... 

North, or Cricklade 

North-West, or Chippenham 
South, or Wilton ... 
West, or Westbury 



Brown, A. H. 
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. 
More, R. J. 
Leighton, Stanley. 

Stanley, E. J. 

Hobhouse, Henry. 

Barlow, J. E. 

Llewellyn, Evan H. 

Strachey, E. 

Joliflfe, Hon. H. G. Hylton. 

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. 

Evershed, Sydney. 

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H., Bt. 

Hill, Rt. Hon. A. Staveley. 

Bill, Charles. 

Warner, T. Courtenay T. 

Heath, James. 

Henderson, Alexander. 

Stevenson, F. S. 
Foster, H. Sevmour. 
Malcolm, Ian. 
Pretyman, Capt. E. G. 
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert, Bart. 

Skewes-Cox, T. 
Keswick, W. 
Bonsor, H. C. O. 
Leigh-Bennett, H. C. 
Cubitt, Hon. Henry. 
Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John. 

Brookfield, A. M. 
Fletcher, Sir Hy., Bt. 
Goschen, G. J., jun. 
Johnstone, J. H. 
Field, Admiral E. 
Talbot, Lord Edward. 

Newdigate, F. A. 
Muntz, P. A. 
Verney, Hon. R. G. 
Milward, Col. Victor. 



Savory, Sir Joseph, Bt. 
Bagot, Capt. J. F. 

Goulding, E. A. 
Fitzmaurice, Lord E. G. Petty- 
Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P., Bt. 
Folkestone, Viscount. 
Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W. 



xliv 

Worcestershire (5) 

XlidfSb ... ... 

Mid, or Droit wich... 

North 

South, or Evesham... 

West, or Bewdley . . . 



Yorkshire, East Riding (3) 
Buckrose ... 
Holderness ... 
Howdenshire 

Yorkshire, North Riding (4) 
Cleveland ... 
Richmond ... 
Thirsk and Malton ... 
Whitby 

Yorkshire, West Riding (N.) (5) 
Elland 

Keighley ... 
Shipley 
Skipton 
Sowerby 

Yorkshire, West Riding (S.) (8) 
Barnsley ... 
Colne Valley 
Doncaster ... 
Hallamshire 
Holmfirth ... 

Morlev 
Normanton 
Rotherham ... 

Yorkshire, West Riding (E.) (6) 
Barkston Ash 
Osgoldcross 
Otiey 
Pudsey 
Ripon 
Spen Valley 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 



Chamberlain, J. Austen. 
Martin, R. Biddulph. 
Wilson, J. W. 
Long, Col. C. Wigram. 
Baldwin, Alfred. 



Holden, Sir Angus, Bt. 
Bethell, Commander G. R. 
Wilson-Todd, W. H. 



Pease, A. E. 
Button, John. 
Lawson, J. Grant. 
Beckett, E. W. 



Trevelyan, C. P. 

Brigg, John. 

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue. 

Morrison, Walter. 

Mellor, Rt. Hon. J. W. 



Walton, Joseph. 
Kitson, Sir J. B., Bt. 
Fison, F. W. 
Mappin, Sir F. T., Bt. 
Wilson, H. J. 
Hutton, A. E. 
Pickard, B. 
Holland, H. W. 



Gunter, Col. R. 
Austin, Sir John, Bt. 
Wyvill, M. D'Arcy. 
Priestley, Briggs. 
Wharton, Rt. Hon. J. Lloyd. 
Whittaker, T. P. 



ENGLAND-METROPOLITAN BOROUGHS (62 Members). 



Battersea and Clapham (2) 

Battersea 

Clapham 

Bethnal Green (2) 

North-East 

South-West 

<Jamberwell (3) 

Dulwich 

North 
Peckham ... 

Ohelsea (1) 



... Burns, John. 

... Thornton, Percy M. 

... Bhownaggree, Sir M. M. 

... Pickersgill, E. H. 

.., Maple, Sir J. Blundell. 

... Dalbiac, Major P. H. 

... Banbury, F. G. 

... Whitmore, C. A. 



Croydon (1) 

Deptford (1) 

FiNSBURY (3) 
Central 

^^CvOv ••• •«• ••• 

Holborn 

FULHAM (1) 

Greenwich (1) 

Hackney ^3) 
Central 
North 
South 

HAaOIERSMITH (1) 

Hampstead (1) 

Isungton (4) 

jciast • . • « • • • • • 

North 

South 

Vt esu ••• ••• ••• 

Kensington (2) 
North 
South 

Lambeth (4) 
Brixton 
Kennington 
North 
Norwood ... 

Lewisham (1) 

London, City (2) 

Marylebone (2) 

Jiias u ... ••• ••• ■•• 

W Qav .•• ••• ••• 

Newington (2) 
Walworth ... 

YV t^ov ••• ••• *•• 

Paddington (2) 
North 
South 

St. George's, Hanover Square (1) 

St. Pancras (4) 

Jijas V ... ... ... 

North 
South 

W Qov ••• ••• ... 

Shoreditch (2) 
Haggerston 
Hoxton 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 

... Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T. 
... ... ... Morton, A. H. A. 



xlv 



... Massey-Main waring, Hon. W. F. B. 

... Richards, H. C. 

... Hall, Rt Hon. Sir Charies. 

... Fisher, W. Hayes 

... Cecil, Lord Hugh. 

. . . Scoble, Sir Andrew R. 

... Bousfield, W. R. 

... Robertson, Herbert 

... Goldsworthy, Major-Gen. W. T. 

... Hoare, E. Brodie. 

Cohen, B. L. 

... Bartley, G. C. T. 

. . . RoUit, Sir A. K. 

... Lough, Thomas. 

. . . Sharpe, W. E. T. 

... Percy, Earl. 

... Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn. 

... Cook, F. L. 

. . . Stanley, Sir Henry M. 

. . . Tritton, C. E. 

... Penn, John 

j Hanson, Sir Reginald, Bt.. 

••• JGibbs, Hon. A. G. H. 

... Boulnois, Edmund 

... Scott, Sir S. K, Bt. 

... Bailey, Jas. 

... Norton, Capt. C. W. 

... Aird, John. 

. . . Fardell, Sir T. G. 

... Goschen, Rt. Hon. G. Jr 

... Wrighton, Thos. 

... Moon, E. R. P. 

... Jessel, Capt. H. M. 

... Graham, H. R. 



fiOwles, John. 
Stuart, Jas. 



xlvi 
SOUTHWARK (3) 

Bormondsey 
Rotherhithe 
West 

Strand (1) 

Tower Hamlets (7) 
Bow and Bromley . . . 
Limehonse ... 
Mile End ... 
Poplar 
St. George's 
Stepney 
Whitechapel 

Wandsworth (1) 

West Ham (2) 
North 
South 

Westminster (1) 
WooLWKii (I) 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 



... Lafone, Alfred. 

Macdona, J. Gumming. 

... Gauston, R. K. 

. . . Smith, Hon. W. F. D. 

. . . Holland, Hon. Lionel R. 

. . . Samuel, Harry S. 

... Gharrington, Spencer. 

... Buxton, Sydney G. 

... Marks, Harry H. 

... Steadman, W. G. 

. . . Montagu, Sir Samuel, Bt. 

... Kimber, Hy. 

... Gray, Ernest. 

. . . Banes, Major G. E. 

. . . Burdett-Goutts, W. Ashmead B. 

... Hughes, Gol. Ed^vin. 



ENGLAND-PROVINCIAL CITIES AND BOROUGHS (164 Members). 



Ahiiton-undkr-Lynk (1) 
Ahton Manor (1) 

lUllHOW-IN-FuUNKSS (1). 

Hath, Gity (2) 

nKI>FOHI)(l) 

HlUKKNlllCAl) (1) 
BlUMIN(iJIAM, GiTY (7) 

HonloHluy ... 
Guntral 
KuHt 

Kd^haHton ... 
North 

South 

WoHt 

Hlaokhuhn (li) 

HOU'ON (*J) 

Boston (1) 

HltADtHUlI), GlTY (3) 

(Jontral 

EiiHt 
WoHt 

HuKiinoN (li) 



... Whiteley, H. 

... Hutchinson, Gapt. G. W. Grice- 

... Gayzer, Sir G. W. 

/Murray, Gol. G. Wyndham. 
••• \Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R. 

... Pym, G. Guy. 

. . . Lees, Sir Elliott, Bt. 

. . . Gollings, Rt. Hon. Jesse. 

Parkes, Ebenezer. 
. . . Stone, Sir J. Benjamin. 
... Lowe, F. W. 

Middlemore, J. T. 

Williams, J. Powell-. 
... Ghamberlain, Rt. Hon. Joseph. 

f Hornby, Sir W. H., Bt. 
••• \Goddington, Sir W., Bt. 

/Gross, 11. S. 
\Harwood, G. 

... Garfit, W. 

Wanklyn, J. L. 
,.. Greville, Capt. Hon. R. H. Fulke. 
... Flower, Ernest. 

rLoder, Gerakl W. E. 
"* \ Went worth, Bruce G. Vernon-. 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 



xlvii 



Bristol, City (4) 

East 

North 

South 

West 


Wills, Sir W. H., Bt. 

Fry, Lewis. 

Hill, Sir E. Stock. 

Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. H. 


Burnley (1) 


... Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. 


Bury (1) 


... Kenyon, Jas. 


Bury St. Edmunds (1) 


Chelsea, Visct. 


Cambridge (1) 


FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-, Bt. 


Canterbury, City (1).. 


... Heaton, J. Henniker. 


Carlisle, City (1) 


Gully, Rt. Hon. W. C. (Speaker). 


Chatham (1) 


... Da vies. Sir Horatio D. 


Cheltenham (1) 


Russell, Gen. F. S. 


Chkster, City(1) 


Yerburgh, R. A. 


Christchurch ( 1 ) 


Smith, Abel H. 


Colchester (1) 


Pearson, Sir Weetman D., Bt. 


Coventry (1) 


Murray, C. J. 


Darlington (1) 


Pease, Herbt. P. 


Derby (2) 


rBemrose, Sir H. H. 
iDrage, Geoffrey. 


Devonport (2) 


/Kearley, H. E. 
\Morton, E. J. C. 


Dewsbury (1) 


... Oldroyd, Mark. 


Dover (1) 


Wyndham, George. 


Dudley (1) 


... Robinson, Brooke. 


Dltiham, City(1) 


... Elliot, Hon. Arthur R. D. 


ExETEK, City (1) 


Northcote, Hon. Sir Stafford, Bt. 


Gatrshead (1) 


... Allan, William. 


Gloucester, City (1) ... 


... Monk, C. J. 


Grantham (1) 


Lopes, H. Y. Buller. 


Gravesend (1) 


Ryder, J. H. Dudley. 


Grimsby, Great (1) ... 


... Doughty, G. 


Halifax (2) 


/Arnold, Alfred. 
\Billson, Alfred. 


Hanley (1) 


Woodall, William. 


Hartlepool (1) 


Richardson, Sir T. 


Hastings (1) .,. 


Lucas-Shadwell, W. 


Hereford, City ( 1 ) 


... Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe. 


Huddersfield (1) 


Woodhouse, Sir J. T. 



xlviii 

Hull, City (3) 
Central 
East... 
West 

Hythe (1) 
Ipswich (2) 

Kidderminster (1) 

Leeds, City (5) 
Central 
xiiasu. . . ... 

North 
South 
West 

Leicester (2) ... 

Lincoln, City (1) 

Liverpool, City (9) 
Abercromby 
East Toxteth 
Everton 
Exchange . . . 
Kirkdale 
Scotland 
Walton 
West Derby 
West Toxteth 

Lynn Regis (1) 

Maidstone (1) ... 

Manchester, City (6) 
East 
North 

North-East... 
North-West 
South 
South-West 

Middlesbrough (1) 



Monmouth District (1) 

Morpeth (1) 

NEWCASTLE-UNDER-L YME ( 1 ) 

Newcastle-upon-Tyne, City (2) —v ... 

Northampton (2) 

Norwich, City (2) 



list of constituencies. 



.. King, Sir H. Seymour. 
, . . Firbank, J. T. 
,.. Wilson, C. H. 

.. Sassoon, Sir Edward, Bt. 

rGoddard, D. F. 
\Dalrymple, Sir Chas., Bt. 

.. Godson, Sir Augustus F. 



... Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. 

... Leuty, T. R. 

... Jackson, Rt. Hon. W. L. 

... Walton, John Lawson 

. . . Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J. 

/Broadhurst, Henry. 

••• JHazell, Walter. 

... Seely, C. H. 



... Lawrence, W. F. 

... Warr, A. F. 

. . . Wilcox, Sir J. A. 

... M* Arthur, Charles. 

. . . Maclver, David. 

... O'Connor, T. P. 

... Stock, J. H. 

... Long, Rt. Hon. W. H. 

... Houston, R. P. 

... Bowles, T. Gibson. 

... Comwallis, F. S. Wykeham. 

... Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. 

... Schwann, C. E. 

. . . Fergusson, Rt. Hon. Sir J., Bt. 

... Houldsworth, Sir W. H., Bt. 

... Lome, Rt. Hon. Marquess of. 

... Galloway, W. J. 

... Wilson, J. Havelock. 

... Spicer, Albert. 

... Burt, Thomas. 

... Allen, Wm. 

rHamond, Sir C. F. 
••• ICruddas, W. D. 

/Labouchere, Henry. 
(Drucker, G. C. A. 

rHoare, Sir Samuel, Bt. 
\Bullard, Sir Harry. 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 



xlix 



Nottingham, City (3) 
South ... 

* f OOV • • • a • ■ 

Oldham (2) 

Oxford, City (1) sP^r 

Pknryn and Falmouth (1) 
Pbterborough, City (1) 

Plymouth (2) 

pontefract (1) 

Portsmouth (2) 

Preston (2) 

Reading (1) 

Rochdale (1) 

Rochester, City (1) 

St. Helens (1) 

Salford (3) 

XN vIX l/Xx ••• *.« ••• 

oou rn . • • • • . • • ' 

f f C8U ••• .•* ... a. 

Salisbury, City ( 1 ) 

Scarborough (1) 

Sheffield, City (5) 
Attercliffe ... 
Brightside ... 

V^dlurHrl ... ... ... 

Ecclesall 
HaUam 

Shrewsbury (1) 

Southampton (2) 

South Shields (1 ) 

Stafford (1) ... 

Stalybridge (1) 

Stockport (2) 

Stockton (1) ... 

Stoke-upon-Trent (1) 

Sunderland (2) 

VOL. LXXVII. [Fourth Series.] 



... Bond, Edward. 
... Bentinck, Lord H. 
. . . Yoxall, J. H. 

jEmmott, Alfred. 
■" \^Runciman, Walter. 

... Valentia, Viscount. 

... Homiman, F. J. 

. . . Purvis, Robert. 

rClarke, Sir Edward. 
• ■ \Mendl, Sigismund F. 

... Nussey, T. Willans. 

/Baker, Sir John. 
••• tClough, W. 0. 

/Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W. 
••• \Tomlinson, W. E. M. 

Palmer, G. W. 

... Royds, C. M. 

... Cranborne, Viscount. 

... Seton-Karr, Henry. 

. . . Platt-Higgins, F. 
... Howarth, Sir H. H. 
Knowles, Lees. 

... Allhusen, A. H. E. 

... Rickett, J. Compton. 

... Langley, Batty. 

... Maddison, F. 

... Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard. 

... Ash mead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis. 

... Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-. 

... Greene, H. D. 

/Simeon, Sir J. S. Barrington, Bt. 
(Evans, Sir Francis H. 

... Robson, W. S. 

... Shaw, C. E. 

... Sidebottom, T. H. 

fWhiteley, George. 
••• \ Melville, B. V. 

... Samuel, Jonathan. 

... Coghill, D. H. 

/Doxford, W. T. 
••• \Gourley, Sir E. T. 

d 



Taunton (1) 

Tynemouth (1) 

Wakefield, City (1) ,.. 

WaLvSall(I) ... 

Warkington (1) 

WAmvicK AND Leamington (1) 

Wednesbury (1) 

West Brom>vich (1) 

Whitehaven (1) 

WiGAN (1) 

Winchester, City (1) 

Windsor (1) 

Wolverhampton (3) 

XjOiSl ... . • • • .- ' 

South 

T? tyi3v ••• •«• ••» 

Worcester, City (1) 

Yarmouth, Great (1) 

York, City (2) 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 

Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. 

... Donkin, R. S. 

Milton, Viscount. 

Gedge, Sydney. 

Rerpoint, Robert. 

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred. 

... Green, W.. D. 

••• Spencer, J. Ernest. 

... Helder, Augustus. 

Powell, Sir F. S., Bt. 

Myers, W. H. 

Barry, Sir F. T., Bt. 



... Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir H. H. 

.., Gibbons, J. L, 

. . . Hickman, Sir Alfred. 

... Allsopp, Hon. G. H. 

, . . Colomb, Sir John. 

r Butcher, J. G. 
tBeresford, Lord Charles. 



WALES— COUNTIES (19 BTembers). 



Anglesey (1) ... 
Brecknockshire (1) . 

CARl)rC.\NSHIRE (1) 

Carmarthenshire (2) 
East 
A\ est 

Carnarvonshire (2) 
Noith or Arfon 
South or Eifion 

Denhkjhshirk (2) 
Plast 
West 

Flintshire (1) ... 

(4LAMUlt(;ANSIURE (5) 

luist 

Mid... 

Khondda ... 

South 

West, or GoNver 

Mkiuonlthshire (1) . 



. . Griffiths, Ellis J. 
Morley, Charles. 
. . Davies, M. Vaughan. 

. . Thomas, Abel. 
.. Morgan, J. Lloyd. 

.. JoneSi William. 
... Roberts, J. Bryn. 

... Moss, Samuel. 
.. Roberts, J. H. 

.. Smith,. SamueL 

.. Thomas, Alfred. 
.. Evans, S. T. 

Abraham, William.. 

Wyiidham-Quin, Major W. H. 

Randell, David. 

Edwaids, O. M. 



Montgomeryshire (1) 
Pembrokeshire (1) 
Radnorshire (1) 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 

Humphroys-Owen, A. C. 

Philipps, J. Wynford. 

... Milbank, Sir P. C. J., Bt. 



li 



WALES— BOROUGHS (11 Members). 



Cardiff District (1) 

Carmarthen District (1) ... 
Carnarvon District (1) 
Denbigh District (1) 
funt dstrict (1) 

Merthyr Tydvil (2) 

Montgomery District (1) ... 



... Maclean, J. M. 

... Jenkins, Sir J. J. 

... Lloyd-George, David. 

... Howell, W. T. 

Lewis, J. H. 

rThomas D. A. 
■* \ Morgan, W. Pritchard. 

... Pryce Jones, Lieut. -Col. E. 



Pembroke and Haverfordwest District (1) Laurie, Lieut.-Col. J. W. 



Swansea (2) 
District 
Town 



... Jones, D. Brynmor. 

... Llewellyn, Sir J. T. Dillwvn-, iU. 



SCOTLAND-COUNTIES (39 Members). 



Aberdeenshire (2) 

JL^CvO V ••• ••■ ••• 

f T 6S V • • • ... ... 

Argyllshire (1) 

Ayrshire (2) 
North 
South 

Banffshire (1) 

^rwickshire (1) 

Buteshire (1) 

Caithness-shire (1) 

Clackmannan ant) Kinross (l; 

Dumbartonshire (1) 

Dumfriesshire (1) 

Edinburgh (Midlothlw; (\) 

Elgin and Nairn (1 ) 

Fifeshiee (2) 
East 
West 

Forfarshire (1> 



Buchanan, T. li. 
Farquharson, Dr. li. 

Nicol, Donald N. 



Cochrane, Hon. T. H. 
Arrol, Sir William. 

Wedderbum, Sir W., Bt. 

Tennant, H. J. 
. Murray, Kt. Hon. A. (Jraham. 
. Clark, Dr. G. B. 

Balfour, Rt. Hon. J. B. 

Wylie, Alexander. 

S^iUttar, lUj)tuiiiou. 

Carmichael, Sir T. D. (iilw>ii . 

Gonlon, Hon. J. E. 

A>>/juith, Kt. Hor;. H H. 
Birrell, Augii^^iin^r. 

Sinclair, Capl. J. 



// 'J 



Hi LIST 

Haddingtonshire (1) 

Inverness-shire (1) 

Kincardineshire (1) 

Kirkcudbrightshire (1) 

Lanarkshire (6) 
Govan 
Mid 

North-East ... 
North-West 
X amcic ... ... • . . 

South 

Linlithgowshire (1) 

Orkney and Shetland (1) ... 

Peebles and Selkirk (1) 

Perthshire (2) 

jjiasL ... ... ... 

TV \}oU ... ... ... 

Eenfrewshire (2) 

Jji£lSu • • • • • • • • • 

vV L/ou ••• ••• ••• 

Ross AND Cromarty (1) 

Roxburghshire (1) 

Stirlingshire (1) 

sutherlandshire (1) 

Wigtonshire (1) 



OF constituencies. 

... Haldane, R. B. 

... Baillie, J. E. B. 

... Crombie, J. W. 

... Stewart, Sir Mark J. McT., Bt. 

... Wilson, John. 

... Caldwell, J. 

... Colville, J. 

... Douglas, C. M. 

... Smith, J. Parker. 

... Hozier, Hon. J. H. C. 

... Ure, Alex. 

... Lyell, Sir Leonard, Bt. 

... Thorburn, Walter. 

... Kinloch, Sir J. G. S., Bt. 

... Currie, Sir Donald. 

... Shaw-Stewai*t, M. H. 

... Renshaw, C. B. 

... Weir, J. G. 

... Dalkeith, Earl of. 

... McKillop, J. 

... McLeod, John. 

... Maxwell, Rt. Hon. Sir H. E., Bt. 



SCOTLAND— CITIES AND BURGHS (31 Members). 



AiJEKDEEN, City (2) 

North 

South 

Ayr District (1) 
Dr.MFRiEs District (1) 

Dl'NDEE (2) 

Ediniujrgh, City (4) 
Central 
E&st 
South 
West 

Elgin District (1) 



. . . Pirie, D. V. 

. .. Bryce, Rt. Hon. James. 

... Orr-Ewing, C. L. 

. . . Reid, Sir R. T. 

/ Robertson, Edmund. 
" * ( Leng, Sir John. 

... McEwan, William. 

. . . McCrae, George. 

... Dewar, Arthur. 

. . . Mclver, Sir Lewis, Bt. 

... Asher, Alexander. 



Falkirk District (1)... 



... Wilson, John. 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 



liii 



GiJis(;o\v, Cirv' (7) 

Blaekfriars jiiul Hutcheso!itowii 

Bridgeton ... 

Camlachic ... 

Central 

College 

St. Rollox 

Tradeston ... 

Greenock (1) 

Hawick District (1) 

Inverness District (1) 

Kilmarnock District (I) 

Kirkcaldy District (1 ) 

Leith District (1) 

Montrose District (1) 

Paisley (1) 

Perth City (1) 

St. Andrew's I)istri(t(1) ... 

Stirung District (1) 

Wick Distukt (1) 



Pi'ovaiid, A, I). 
Cameron, Sir Cha«., Bt. 
Cross, Alexander. 
Hainl, J. G. A. 
Stirling- Maxwell, Sir J. M. 
Begg, J. Faithfull. 
Corbett, A. Cameron. 

Sutherland, Sir T. 

Shaw, Thomiw. 

Finlay, Sir U. B. 

Donny, Col. J. McA. 

Dalziel, J. II. 

Ferguson, R. C. Munro. 

Morley, Ut. Hon. J. 

Dunn, Sir Wm., Bt. 

Wallace, Ilfjbert. 

Atistnither, II. T. 

Campbell- I^nnorman, Itt. I In. Sir II. 

ILjfldorwick, T. C. II. 



IRELAND COUNTIES (85 Members;. 



Antrim (4) 
East 
Mid ... 
North 
South 

Armagh Coixty iZ) 

Mid 

North 
South . . 

Carlow CorNT\- i\} 

Cavan (2) 
East 
West 

Clare (2; 
East 
W^ 

Cork, Covsty 7 



Mkl 
North 
North- FlaLSt 
SoQth 

\V 



Mc-Calmont, Col. J. 
rrNeill, lion. It. T. 
MfKjre, William. 
.Macartney, W. (I. K. 

SaunderH^in, Col. lU. Hon, K. J 
Mel I ugh, P>lward. 

Hammond, John. 



Voune, SamfU;L 
yarrt'Jl, J. V, 



li^UtUrtuU ^V, H. K. 
Jaixi^rv/n, Major J, E, 

IkjhtUff. Caf^n A, J. T 



liv 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 



1)()nei;al (4) 
Eiist 

North 

South 
•West 

1>UWN (4) 

East 

North 

South 

West 

IHiuas, County (2) 
North 
South 

Fkkmanauh (2) 

North 

South 

UVLWVW CorNTY (4) 
(\Muionmm .. 
Kajit 
North 
South 

Kkijkv ^4) 

\\i\»{ 

North 
South 
WoHt 

Kn.nAKK (2) 
North 
South 

Kilkenny, (\u nty (2) 
North 
South 

KlN^JS (\UINTY (2) 

hirr 
Tulljuuoro . 



LlCITIMM (2) 

North 

South 

liiMKKU'K, County (2) 
Wost 

LoNhONhKUKY, OolNTY (2) 

North 

South 

LoNliRUU), ('OUNTY (2) 

North 
South 

Lorni (2) 

North 

South 



O'Connor, Arthur. 
Curran, T. B. 
MacNeill, J. G. Swift. 
Sullivan, T. D. 

Rentoul, J. A. 
Blakiston-Houston, J. 
M*Cartan, Michael. 
Hill, Captain Arthur. 



Clancy, J. J. 

Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C. 



... Archdale, E. M. 
... Jordan, Jeremiah. 



O^Malley, William. 
Koche, John. 
Kilbride, Denis. 
Sheeliy, David. 

Koche, Hon. J. B. Burke. 

Flavin, M. J. 

Farrell, T. J. 

Esmonde, Sir T. H. G., Bt. 



Engledew, C. J. 
Minch, Matthew J. 



M*Dermott, Patrick. 
Morris, Samuel. 



Molloy, B. C.^ 
Fox, Dr. J. F. 



M^Hugh, Patrick A. 
Tully, Jasper. 



... Finucane, John. 
Austin, Michael. 



Atkinson, Kt. Hon. John. 
Lea, Sir Thomas, Bt. 

M'Cartliv, Justin. 
Blake, Pklward. 



... Healv, T. M. 

... M*(ihee, Richard. 



LIST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 



Iv 



Mayo (4) 

East 

North 

South 

VY GSl ... ... 

Meath (2) 
North 
South 

MONAGHAN (2) 

North 
South 

Queen's County (2) 

J-JC71^L ••• ••• •«• 

Ossory 

Roscommon (2) 

North 

South 

Sugg, County (2) 

North 

South 

-TiPPERARY (4) 

l^i^S V ... ... 

\fir1 

.A*.A.XvA ••• ••• ••• 

North 
South 

Tyrone (4) 
East 

^▼uL m.\-k •«• ••• ••• 

North 
South 

WaTERFORD, COI'NTY (2) 

East 

West 

Westmeath (2) 

North ... • . . . 
South 

Wexford (2) 
North 
South 

WiCKLOW (2) 

Hiast/ ... ... 

West 



Dillon, John. 
Crilly, Daniel. 
Davitt, Michael. 
Ambrose, Robert. 



Gibney, James. 
Parnell, John H. 



... Macaleese, Daniel. 

... Daly, Jas. 

... MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. 

... Crean, Eugene. 

... O'Kelly, Jas. 

... Hayden, J. P. 



Collery, Bernard. 
Curran, Thomas. 

Condon, T. J. 
Hogan, J. F. 
O'Brien, P. J. 
Mandeville, Francis, 

Doogan, P. C. 
Murnaghan, George. 
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H. 
Russell, T. W. 



... Power, P. J, 
Shee, J. J. 

Tuite, James. 
... Sullivan Donal. 



. Healy, Thos. J. 
Ffrench, Peter. 



Corbet, W. J. 
O'Connor, James. 



IRELAND— CITIES AND BOROUGHS (16 Members). 



Belfast, City (4) 
East 
.North 
South 
West 

Cork, City (2)... 



. . . Woltf, G. W. 

. . . Haslett, Sir Jas. H. 

... Johnston, Wm. 

. . . Arnold-Forster, H. O. 

^ ( O'Brien, J. F. X. 
\ Healy, Maurice. 



Ivi IJST OF CONSTITUENCIES. 

Dublin, City (4) 

College Green Carew, J. L. 

Dublin Harbour Harrington, T. 

St. Patrick's Field, William^ 

St. Stephen's (^reen Campbell, J. H. M. 

Galway, Town (1) Pinkerton, John. 

Kilkenny (1) ,.. .:•• O'Brien, Patrick. 

Limerick, City (1) O'Keefe, F. A. 

LoNDONDEURY, City (1) Moore, A. J. 

Nenvry (1) Carvill, P. G. H. 

Waterfort) ( 1 ) Redmond, J. E. 



UNIVERSITIES (9 Members). 



England:- 

Cambridge University (2) | ^^^^^^ ^^ jjon. Sir J. E. 

London University (1 ) Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John, Bart. 

,,-,,.. ./ /^x r Anson, Sir W. R, Bart. 

Oxford L in versity (2) | ^^j^^^ ^^ jj^^ j ^. 

Scotland : - - 

Edinburgh and St. Andrews Universities (1) Priestley, Sir W. O. 
Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities (1) ... Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. A. 

Ireland : — 

r\ ui- TT • v /.i\ ( Carson, Rt. Hon. E. H. 

Dublin University (2) | Lecky, Et. Hon. W. E. H. 

SUMMARY. 



No. of 
England " Memlwrs. 

i^ouni/ies . . . ... ... ... ... ,,. ... ... ... ^O'T 

Metropolitan Boroughs 62 

Pro>incial Cities and Boroughs ... ... ... ... ... 1 64 



Wales 

Counties... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 19 

Boroughs ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... II 



460 



Scotland 

v<'OLmLlt/o. .. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 0«/ 

Cities and Burghs 31 



3a 



Ireland 

vyOiUil/ieS ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... O'J 

Cities and Boroughs ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 16 



7a 



Universities 
England ... 
Scotland . . . 
Ireland . . . 



101 



5. 



9 



Total number of Members ... ... ... ... 670 



TABLE OF CONTENTS 



TO 



VOLUME LXXVII. 



VOLUME OF THE AUTUMN SESSION 1899. 



LOKDS: TUESDAY, 17th OCTOBER 1899. 

THE SIXTH SESSION of the FOURTEENTH PARLIAMENT of HER 
MAJESTY THE QUEEN, and the TWENTY-SIXTH PARLIAMENT of 
the UNITED KINGDOM of GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND, was 
opened by Commission. 

Page 

^i^UI£l£M A oi Jd<i!<Ou ... ..• ... ... .•• ... ... ... ... 1 



Roll of the Lords 

Select Vestries — Bill, pro forma, read 1« 



3 
3 



ORDER OF THE DAY, 

Address in Answer to Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech : — 

The Lord Chancellor delivered the Report of Her Majesty's Gracious 
Speech from the Throne. 

Moved — 

"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty in reply 
to the Gracious Speech from the Throne." — {The Marquess of Granby,) 



Discussion : — 

Lord Barnard ... ... 7 

The Earl of Kimherley ... 10 
The. Prime Minister and 
Secretary of State for 
Foreign Affairs {The Mar- 
quess of Salisbury) ... 16 



Lord Loch ... ... ... ... 22 

The Earl of Camperdoum ... ... 2& 

The Under Secretary of State for the 

Colonies {The Earl of Selborne) ... 31 



Address agreed to, nemine dissentiente, and ordered to be presented to Her 
Majesty by the Lords with White Staves. 



Iviii TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 17.] Pag^ 

Committees : — 

The Earl of Morley appointed, nemine dissentiente, to take the Chair in 

all Committees of this House for this Session ... ... ... ... .39 

Committee for Privileges appointed ... ... ... ... ... ... 39 

Committee for the Journals appointed ... ... ... ... ... 39 

Stoppages in the Streets, Order to prevent, renewed ... ... ... 39 

Appeal Committee appointed ... ... ... ... ... ... 39 

I 
JuDicuL Business : — 

Ordered, That for the purposes of the Judicial Business of this House, 
Monday the 13th day of November next be deemed the " first sitting 
day after the Kecess "... ... ... ... ... ... . • • 39 

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 

The Lord Chancellor acquainted the House that the following 
Papers having been commanded to be presented to this House by 
Her Majesty had been so presented on t\ie following dates by de- 
livery to the Clerk of the Parliaments, pursuant to Order of the House 
of the 17th February, 1896, viz. : 

Trade Keports, 1898 — Annual Series -Diplomatic and Consular Reports 
on Trade and Finance : — No. 2329, Nicaragua ; No. 2330, Italy (Naples) ; 
No. 2331, Italy (Sicily); No. 2332, Brazil (Rio Grande do Sul) ; No. 
2333, Portugal (Madeira) ; No. 2334, ^Madagascar ; No. 2335, Germany 
(Dantzig); No. 2336, Mexico; No. 2337, Sweden (Gothenburg); No. 
2338, Egypt (Port Said and Suez^ ; No. 2339, Japan (North Formosa) ; 
No. 2340, China (Wuhu) ; No.' 2341, Japan (Tainan); No. 2342, 
Russia (Riga); No. 2343, Russia; No. 2344, Germany; No. 2345, 
Germany (Stettin) ; No. 2346, Persia (Persian Gulf) ; No. 2347, Borneo 
(British North Borneo) ; No. 2348, China (Kiungchow) ; No. 2349, 
United States (San Francisco) ; No. 2350, France (Reunion); No. 2351, 
Zanzibar; No. 2352 (United States (Philadelphia); No. 2353, Siam 
(Bangkok); No. 2354, Guatemala (Trade, Agriculture, and Finance); 
No. 2355, Japan (Nagasaki) ; No. 2356, Austria- Hungary (Bosnia and 
the Herzegovina) ; No. 2357, Bulgaria ; No. 2358, Hayti ; No. 2359, 
Turkey (Angora); No 2360, Guiana (French and Dutch); No. 2361, 
xiavana ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... *)«/« *v\j 

Miscellaneous Series — Reports on Subjects of General and Commercial 
Interest — No. 509, Briti.sh trade with Switzerland; No. 510, Brazil 
(Commercial intelligence) ; No. 511, Brazil (Cotton spinning and weaving 
industries); No. 512, Brazil (Coffee production in Brazil and consump- 
tion in the United States); No. 513, Hungary (Zone tariff railways); 
No. 514, Mexico (Tobacco) ; No. 515, Hungary (Financial result of the 
purchase and working of the State railways) ... ... ... ... 41 

Treaty Series — No. 16 (1889). Convention between the United Kingdom 
and Guatemala relative to trade marks ; signed at Guatemala, 20th July, 

1898. [Ratifications exchanged at Guatemala, 28th July, 1899.] No. 

17 (1899). Convention between the United Kingdom and Belgium rela- 
tive to the remittance of Money Orders by Telegraph between the two 
Countries; signed at London, loth September, 1899. [Katitic.it ions 
exchanged at London, 29th September, 1899] ... ... ... ... 41 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. lix 

October 17.] Page 

Venezuela — No. 4 (1899). British Guiana Boundary Arbitration : Case of 
the United States of Venezuela before the Tribunal of Arbitration to 
convene at Paris under the provisions of the treaty between the United 
States of Vene2uela and Her Britannic Majesty ; signed at Washington, 

2nd February, 1897. Volume I. No. 5 (1899). British Guiana 

Boundary Arbitration : Counter case of same : Volume I. No. 6 

(1899). British Guiana Boundary Arbitration : Printed argument on 
behalf of same (J. M. de Rojas, agent of Venezuela, Benjamin Harrison, 
Benjamin F. Tracy, S. Mallet-Prevost, James Russell Soley, counsel for 
* oiiezueia I ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 4x 

Africa — No. 8 (1899). Correspondence respecting the status of slavery in 

East Africa and the Islands of Zanzibar and Pemba. No. 9 (1899). 

Report by Lieutenant-Colonel Macdonald, R.E., of his expedition from the 
Uganda Protectorate, 3rd May, 1898, to 5th March, 1899 42 

South African Republic — Correspondence relating to the status of the 
South African Republic (in continuation of [C.-8721.]) Further corre- 
spondence relating to proposed political reforms in the South African 

Republic (in continuation of [C.-9415.]) Further correspondence 

relating to political affairs in the South African Republic (in continuation 

of [C.-9518.]) Further correspondence relating to political affairs in the 

South African Repu])lic (in continuation of [C.-9521]) ... ... ... 42 

Nigeria — Correspondence relating to the Benin Territories Expedition, 1899 . 42 

Samoa, No. 1(1899) — Correspondence respecting the affairs of Samoa. Report 

of the Joint Commission ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 42 

Colonies (Annual) Reports. — No. 266, Leeward Islands, 1898 ; No. 267, 
St. Lucia 1898 ; No. 268, Fiji, 1898; No! 269, Turks and Caicos Islands, 
1898; No. 270, Malta, 1898; No. 271, Gold Coast, 1898 ; No. 272, 
Trinidad, 1898; No. 273, Sierra Leone, 1898; No. 274, Ceylon, 1898 ... 42 

Ceylon, Hong Kong, and Straits Settlements — Correspondence regarding 
the measures to be adopted for checking the spread of venereal disease (in 
continuation of H.C. 147) ... 43 

Straits SettlExMENTS— Reports on the Federated Malay States for 1898 ... 43 

Prison Commission (Scotland) — Report on Prison Dietaries, by James 

Craufurd Dunlop, M.I). ... 43 

Intermediate Education (Ireland) Commission — Final Report of the 
Commissioners. Appendix thereto — Part I., Minutes of Evidence : 
Part II., Miscellaneous Documents ... ... ... ... ... ... 43 

Factory and Workshop — Dangerous Trades: Final Report of the Depart- 
mental Committee, appointed by the Secretary of State for the Home 
Department, to inquire into and report upon certain miscellaneous 

dangerous trades. Lead Compounds? in Potteries : Report to the 

Secretary of State for the Home Department by Thonifis Oliver, M.D., 
F.R.C.P., Physician to the Royal Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, upon 
the Pottery Industry in France ... ... ... ... ... ... 43 

Lunacy (Scotland) — Forty-first Annual Report of the General Board of 

Commissioners in Lunacy for Scotland ... ... ... ... ... 43 



Ix TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

Odohcr 17.] Page 

Navy — Report to the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty of the Committee 

on the training of Naval Medical Officers ... ... ... ... ... 43 

Irish Land Commission — Proceedings: Return for June 1899. Judicial 

Rents : Return for January 1899 ; Return for February 1899 ... ... 43 

Mines and Quarries — General Reports and Statistics for 1898: Part IL 
Labour — General Report and Statistics relating to persons employed and 
accidents at mines and quarries in the United Kingdom, and to the 
enforcement of the Mines and Quarries Acts. Part III. Output — General 
Report and Statistics relating to the output and value of the minerals 
raised in the United Kingdom, the amount and value of the metals pro- 
duced, and the exports and imports of minerals ... ... ... ... 44 

India— Statistical Abstracts relating to British India from 1888-89 to 1897-98. 

Thirty-third number ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 44 

Tramway and Gas and Water Orders — Report by the Board of Trade of 
their proceedings under the Tramways Act, 1870, and the Gas and 
Waterworks Facilities Act, 1870, during the Session of 1899 ... ... 44 

Explosives (Ignition of Cordite at Messrs. Kynoch's Factory) — Report 
to the Secretary of State for the Home Department by Colonel A. Ford, 
C.B., Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Explosives, on the circumstances 
attending an ignition of cordite which occurred in the blending and packing 
house of the factory of Messrs. Kynoch, Limited, at Holehaven, Essex, on 
the 8th June, 1899 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 44 

Local Taxation (Royal Commission) — Memoranda chiefly relating to the 

classification and incidence of Imperial and local taxes ... ... ... 44 

The same were ordered to lie on the Table. 

Post Office (Telegraph Money Orders) — Additional articles to the Money 
Order Convention of the 7th-14th of Octo])er 1871, between the General 
Post Office of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the 
General Post Office of the Netherlands ; presented (by Command), and 
ordered to lie on the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 44 

Supreme Court of Judicature— Rules of the Supreme Court (October) 

1 RQQ i.'S 

X v^ c/ V ••• ••• ••• ■•• ••• «•• ••• ••• ••• ••• Jt%^ 

Workmen's Compensation Act, 1899 — Rules, dated 1st of September, 1899 46 

India (Loans Raised in England) — Return of all loans raised in England 
under the provisions of any Acts of Parliament chargeable on the revenuei 
of India outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ended on the 
.30th September, 1899, with the rates of interest and totalamount payable 

LXlOX K^\J\\% K^XjK^* ••• ••« ••• ••• «•• ••• ••• •■• ••« ^v 

Prisons (Scotland) Act, 1877 — Rule made by the Secretary for Scotland 

under the Fine or Imi)risonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act, 1899 ... 45 

Trinidad — Additional Prison Rule relating to the employment of female 

l/L lov^l 1\^1.0 ••• ■•• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• M^%^ 

Saint Licta — Regulations amending the Prison Rules in respect of the 

period during which shot drill may be performed ... ... ... ... 45 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixi 

Oddber 17.] Pa^e 

Penal Servitude Acts, 1853-1891 (Conditional Licences)— Licences 
granted to (1) Ada Bennett, (2) Ada Lillian Sherlock, convicts under 
detention in Aylesbury Prison, permitting the said Ada Bennett and Ada 
Lillian Sherlock to be at large on condition that they enter the Royal 
Victoria Home, Horfield, Bristol ... ... ... ... ... ... 45 

Factory and Workshop (Different Meal Hours) (Flax, Jute, and 
Hemp Factories) — Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home 
Department, dated 6th September 1899, extending to textile factories in 
which the material used is flax, jute, or hemp, the special exceptions with 
regard to meal hours contained in section 52 of the Factory and Workshop 

X^ V w* X O I \J ••• ••• •■• •«• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ^ * * 

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table. 

* 

Mersey Docks and Harbour Board — Accounts for the year ended 1st 

July 1899; Delivered (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Tal)le 45 

House adjourned at five minutes before Seven of the clock. 



COMMONS: TULSDAV, 17th OCTOBER 1899. 

The House met at Two of the Clock, 

Message to attend the Lords Commissioners by Black Kod. 

r-.nc The House went ; and, having returned : — 

Elections. — Ordered, That all Meml>ers who are returned for two or more 
places in any part of the United Kingdom do make their election for which 
of the places they will serve, within one week after it shall appo^ir that 
there is no question upon the return for that place ; and if anything shall 
come in question touching the return or election of any Member, he is to 
withdraw during the time the matter is in debate ; and that all Members 
returned upon double returns to withdraw till their returns are determined 40 

Resolved, That no Peer of the Kealm, except such Peers of Ireland as 
shall for the time being be actually elected, and shall not have 
declined to serve, for any county, city, or borough of Great Brit'iin, 
hath any right to give his vote in the election of any Member to 
serve in Parliament. 

Motion made, and Question proposed, " That it is a high infringtjment of 
the liberties and privileges of the Commons of the United Kingdom 
for any Lord of Parliament, or other Peer or Prelate, not being a 
Peer of Ireland at the time elected, and not having declined to serve 
for any county, city, or borough of (Jreat Britain, to concern hims(»lf 
in the election of Members to serve for the Commons in Parliamtint, 
except only any Peer of Irelanrl, at such elections in Creat Britain 
respectively where such Peer shall apjKJar as candidate, or by himself, 
or any others, be proposed to be elected ; or for any Lord Lieutenant or 
Gk)vemor of any county to avail himself of any authority derived 
from his commission, to influence the election of any -NIemlKT to 
serve for the Commons in Parliament." — {Mr. A. J. Balfour.) 



u TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

.-. t:.' . Page 

Vttt^Kiniont proposed — 

** To leave out the words from the word * Kingdom/ in line 2, to the word 
' fur** in line 8.'* — {Mr, James Lmvther.) 

Mt\ Stanhope {Burnley) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 4& 

i^uostion put — " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the 
Question." 

The House divided : — Ayes, 337 ; Noes, 76. (Division List No. L) 

Main Question put, and agreed to. 

Resolved, That it is a high infringement of the liberties and privileges of 
the Commons of the United Kingdom for any Lord of Pariiament, 
or other Peer or Prelate, not being a Peer of Ireland at the time 
elected, and not having declined to serve for any county, city, or 
])orough of Great Britain, to concern himself in the election of 
Members to serve for the Commons in Parliament, except only any 
Peer of Ireland, at such Elections in Great Britain respectively 
where such Peer shall appear as a candidate, or by himself, or any 
others, he proposed to be elected ; or for any Lord Lieutenant or 
Governor of any county to avail himself of any authority derived 
from his Commission, to influence the election of any Member to 
serve for the Commons in Parliament. 

Resolved, That if it shall appear that any person hath been elected or 
returned a Member of this House, or endeavoured so to be, bv 
bribery, or any other corrupt practices, this House will proceed with 
the utmost severity against all such persons as shall have been 
wilfully concerned in such bribery or other corrupt practices ... 5$ 

fNEssES Resolved, That if it shall appear that any person hath been 
tampering with any witness, in respect of his evidence to be given to this 
House, or any Committee thereof, or directly or indirectly hath 
endeavoured to deter or hinder any person from appearing or giving 
evidence, the same is declared to be a high crime or misdemeanour ; and 

this House will proceed with the utmost severity against such offender. 

Res()l\'ed, That if it shall appear that any person hath given false 
evidence in any case before this House, or any Committee thereof, this 
House will proceed with the utmost severity against such offender ... 5S 

i'iu)i'OFjTAN Police — Ordered, That the Commissioners of the Police of 
the Metropolis do take care that, during the Session of Parliament, the 
pa.ssa<^es through the streets leading to this House ])e kept free and open, 
.ind that no obstruction be permitted to hinder the passage of Members to 
and from this House, and tliat no disorder be allowed in Westminster 
Hall, or in the passages leading to this House, during the sitting of Parlia- 
ment, and that there be no annoyance therein or thereabouts ; and that 
the Serjeant-at-Arms attending this House do communicate this Order to 
I he Commissioners aforesaid ... ... ... ... • • • • • • • • 5^ 

KS AND PiiocEEDiNGS — Ordered, tliat the Votes and Proceedings of this 
II()U.se be printed, being first perused l)y Mr. Speaker; and that he do 
ai)p(>int the printing thereof ; and that no person but such as he shall 
ajjpoint do presume to print the same ... ... •-. •• •• 54 

VILECJES Ordered, That a Committee of Privileges be appointed 54 






TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixiii 

October 17. J Page 

Outlawries Bill — " For the more effectual preventing Clandestine Out- 
lawries," read the first time ; to be reatl a second time ... ... .... 54 

Journal — Ordered, That the Journal of this House, from the end of the last 
Session to the end of the present Session, with an Index thereto, be 

printed. Ordered, That 500 Copies of the said Journal and Index be 

printed by the appointment and under the direction of Sir Reginald 

Francis Douce Palgrave, K.C.B., the Clerk of this House. Ordered, 

That the said Journal and Index be printed by such person as shall be 
licensed by Mr. Speaker, and that no other person do presume to print 

vLE\^ OcftLUv/ ••• ••• ••• ••• •«• ••• ••• ••• ••• %J^ 



PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS 

(Recess.) 

The following Papers, presented by Command of Her Majesty during the 
Recess, were delivered to the Librarian of the House of Commons 
during the Recess, pursuant to the Standing Order of the 14th 
August 1896 :— 

South African Republic — Copy of Correspondence relating to the Status of 

the South African Republic ... ... ... ... . . ... ... 54 

South African Republic — Copy of Further Correspondence relating to 

Proposed Political Reforms in the South African Republic 54 

South African Republic — Copy of Further Correspondence relating to 

Political Affairs in South African Republic ... ... ... ... ... 55 

South African Republic — Copy of Further Correspondence relating to 

Political Affairs in South African Republic ... ... ... ... ... 55 

Nigeria — Copy of Correspondence relating to the Benin Territories Expedi- 

vlOII, JL Ot/ 1/ ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 09 

Contagious Diseases Ordinances (Colonies) — Copy of Correspondence 
regarding the Measures to be adopted for checking the spread of Venereal 
Disease in Ceylon, Hong Kong, and the Strait Settlements 55 

Colonial Reports (Annual) — Copies of Reports Nos. 266 (Leeward Islands, 
Annual Report for 1898), 267 (Saint Lucia, Annual Report for 1898), 268 
(Fiji, Annual Report for 1898), 269 (Turks and Caicos Islands, Annual 
Report for 1898), 270 (Malta, Annual Report for 1898), 271 (Gold Coast, 
Annual Report for 1898), 272 (Trinidad, Annual Report for 1898), 273 
(Sierra Leone, Annual Report for 1898), and 274 (Ceylon, Annual Report 

lOi X C^vC* J ... ... ... ... ».• ••• ... ... ... vv 

Straits Settlements (Federated Malay States) — Copy of Reports on the 

Federated Malay States for 1898 ... ... ... ... ... ... 55 

Trade Reports (Annual Series) — Copies of Diplomatic and Consular Re- 
ports, Annual Series, Nos. 2329 to 2361 ... ... ... ... ... 55 

Trade Reports (Miscellaneous Series) — Copies of Diplomatic and Con- 
sular Reports, Miscellaneous Series, Nos. 509 to 515 ... ... ... 55 



lv\ TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

Vr^uw \No. 8, 1899) — Copy of Correspondence respectifig the Status of 

SUivorv in East Africa and the Islands of Zanzibar and Pemba ... ... 55 

AVKlOA (^No. 9, 1899)— Copy of lieport by Lieutenant-Colonel Macdonald, 
H.K., of his Expedition from the Uganda Protectorate, 3rd May 1898 to 
rah March 1899 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 55 

Samoa (No. 1, 1899) — Copy of Correspondence respecting the Affairs of 

Samoa. Report of the Joint Commission ... ... ... ... ... 55 

Vknkzuela (No. 4, 1899) — Copy of Case of the United States of Venezuela 
before the Tribunal of Arbitration to convene at Paris under the Treaty 
concluded at Washington on the 2nd Feln^uary 1897, between Her 
Britannic Majesty and the United States of Venezuela respecting the 
Settlement of the Boundary between British Guiana and the United States 
of Venezuela ; Vol. 1 .. . ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 56 

Venezuela (No. 5, 1899) — Copy of Counter Case of the United Suites of 
Venezuela before the Tribunal of Arbitration to convene at Paris under 
the Treaty concluded at Washington on the 2nd Febniary 1897, between 
Her Britannic Majesty and the United States of Venezuela respecting the 
Settlement of the Boundary between British Guiana and the United States 
of Venezuela ; Vol. 1 . . . ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 56 

Venezuela (No. 6, 1899)— Copy of Printed Argument on behalf of the United 
States of Venezuela before the Tribunal of Arbitration constituted under 
the Treaty concluded at Washington on the 2nd February 1897, between 
Her Britannic Majesty and the United States of Venezuela respecting the 
Settlement of the Boundary between British Guiana and the United States 
01 V onLZLiv'icir ... ... ... ... -•• ... ... ... ... oo 

Tkeaty Series (No. 16, 1899) — Copy of Convention between the United 
Kingdom and Guatemala relative to Trade Marks. Signed at Guatemala, 
20th July 1898. Ratifications exchanged at Guatemala, 28th July 1899... 56 

Treaty Series (No. 17, 1899) — Copy of Convention between the United 
Kingdom and Belgium relative to the Remit tiince of Money Orders by 
Telegraph between the two Countries. Signed at London, 15th September 
1899. liatifications exchanged at London, 29th September 1899... ... 56 

Intermediate Education (Ireland) (Commission )~Copy of Final Report of 
the Commissioners appointed to incjuire into and report upon the system 
of Intermediate Education in Ireland, as established by the Intermediate 
Education (Ireland) Act, 1878, etc. ... ... ... ... ... ... 56 

Intermediate Education (Ireland) (Commission)— Copy of Appendix to 
Final Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into and report 
upon the system of Intermediate Education in Ireland, as established by 
the Intermediate Ivlucation (Ireland) Act, 1878, etc. ; Part I. (Minutes of 

J. ^ \ lHv>Ilv/\^ I ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• <^\^ 

Intermediate Education (Ireland) (Commission) — Copy of Appendix to 
Final Report of the Commissioners ap{K)intcd to inciuire into and report 
upon the system of Intermediate Education in Ireland, as ostaliJished by 
the Intermediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1878, etc. ; Part II. (Mis- 
cellaneous Documents) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 57 

Irish Land Commission (Proceedings) — Copy of Return of Proceedings of 

the Conimis.sion during the month of June 1899 ... ... ... ... 57 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixv 

October 17.] Page 

Irish Land Commission (Judicial Bents) — Copy of Returns of Judicial 

Rents fixed during the month of January 1899 ... ... ... ... 57 

Irish Land Commission (Judicial Rents) — Copy of Returns of Judicial 

Rents fixed during the month of February 1899 ... ... ... ... 57 

East India (Statistical Arstract)— Copy of Statistical Abstract relating to 

British India from 1888-9 to 1897-8, Thirty-third Number 57 

Lunacy (Scotland) — Copy of Forty-first Annual Report of the General Board 

of Commissioners in Lunacy for Scotland 57 

Prisons (Scotland) — Copy of Report on Prison Dietaries, by James Craufurd 

X./UIL10U, iTx.J^. ... ... ... ... ... ... ..• I.. ••• (/I 

Trabcway and Gas and Water Orders — Copy of Report by the Board of 
Trade of their Proceedings under the Tramways Act, 1870, and the G^as 
and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, during the Session of 1899 ... 57 

Factory and Workshop (Dangerous Trades) (Committee) — Copy of 
Final Report of the Departmental Committee appointed by the Secretary 
of State for the Home Department to inquire into and report upon certain 
Miscellaneous Dangerous Trades ... ... ... ... ... ... 57 

Mines and Quarries — Copy of General Report and Statistics for the year 
1898, Part II., Labour ; General Report and Statistics relating to persons 
employed and Accidents at Mines and Quarries in the United Kingdom, 
and to the enforcement of the Mines and Quarries Act 3 ... ... ... 57 

Explosions (Holehaven, Essex) — Copy of Report by Colonel A. Ford, C.B., 
Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Explosives, to the Right Hon. the Secre- 
tary of State for the Home Department on the circumstances attending an 
ignition of Cordite which occurred in the blending and packing house 
of the factory of Messrs. Kynoch, Limited, at Holehaven, Essex, on the 
otn tiune lOtit/ ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Do 

Factory and Workshop (Lead Compounds in Pottery)— Copy of Report 
to the Secretary of State for the Home Department by Professor Thomas 
Oliver, M.D., F.R.C.P., Physician to the Royal Infirmary, Newcastle-upon- 
Tyne, upon the Pottery Industry in France ... ... ... ... 58 

Mines and Quarries — Copy of General Report and Statistics for the year 
1898, Part III., Output; General Report and Statistics relating to the 
Output and Value of the Minerals raised in the United Kingdom, the 
amount and value of the metals produced, and the exports arui imports of 
jjkxineraia ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .*■ ••• *j(s 

Naval Medical Officers (Training) (Committee) — Copy of Report to the 
Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty of the Committee on the Traiiiing 
of Naval Medical Officers ... ... ... ... ... 58 

Local Taxation (Royal Commission) — Copy of Memoranda chiefly relating 

to the Classification and Incidence of Imperial and Local Taxes ... ... 58 

Ordered, That the said Papers do lie upon the Table. 
VOL. LXXVIL [Fourth Series.] e 



Ixvi TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 17.] Page 

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 

Army Supplementary Estimate, 1899-1900 — Estimate presented, of the 
Additional Number of Men and of the Further Amount required in the 
year ending 31st March 1900, in consequence of the Military Situation in 
South Africa [by Command] ; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. 

I JL^v^* XI ••■ ■•• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ^^^? 

Army (Memorandum on Supplementary Estimate)— Copy presented, of 
Memorandum showing the principal heads of Expenditure provided for 
in the Army Supplementary Estimate in consequence of the Military 
Situation in South Africa [by Command] ; to lie upon the Table ... 58 

Post Office (Telegraph Money Orders) (Holland) — Copy presented, of 
Additional Articles to the Money Order Convention of the 7th-14th of 
October 1871 between the General Post Office of Great Britain and Ireland 
and the General Post Office of the Netherlands [by Command] ; to lie 
upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 59 

East India (Loans Raised in England) — Copy presented, of Returns of 
all Loans raised in England, chargeable on the Revenues of India, 
outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ending on the 30th 
September 1899, etc. [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. 

fNn 91 f\Q 

I ^^ ^J» »J !••• ••• ••• ••• •■• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• C^ v 

Factory and Workshop Acts (Different Meal Hours) (Flax, Jute 
AND Hemp Factories) — Copy presented, of Order made by the 
Secretary of State for the Home Department, dated 6th September 1899, 
extending to Textile Factories in which the material used is Flax, Jute, or 
Hemp, the special exceptions with regard to Meal Hours contained in 
Section 52 of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1878 [by Act] ; to lie upon 

UUv ^ Cw[^X\> ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ^^ V 

Penal Servitude Acts (Conditional Licence) — Copy presented, of Licence 
granted to Ada Bennett, a Convict under detention in Aylesbury Prison, 
permitting her to be at large on condition that she enter the Royal 
Victoria Home, Horfield, Bristol [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table ... 59 

Pknal Servitude Acts (Conditional Licence) — Copy presented, of Licence 

f ranted to Ada Lillian Sherlock, a Convict under detention in Aylesbury 
Vison, permitting her to be at large on condition that she enter the 
Royal Victoria Home, Horfield, Bristol [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table 59 

Fine or Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act, 1899 (Rules) — Copy 
presented, of Rule made by the Secretary for Scotland, under the Fine or 
Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act, 1899 [by Act] to lie upon the 

g Cv(ji\3 ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• t^v 

Colonial Produce of Spirits (Restrictions) — Return presented, relative 
thereto [Address 13th February 1899 ; Mr, IF, F. Liiwrence] ; to lie upon 
the Table, and to be printed. [No. 3] 60 

Prisons (West Indies) (St. Lucia) — Copy presented, of Regulation 
amending the Prison Rules, in respect of the period during which Shot 
Drill may be performed [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... 60 

Prisons (West Indies) (Trinidad)— Copy presented, of Additional Prison 
Rule relating to the Employment of i?'emale Prisoners [by Act]; to lie 
upon the Table ... •• • • ••• ••• • • ••• ••• 60 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixvii 

•October 17.] Page 

Papers laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House : — 

1. Workmen's Compensation Act, 1897 (Rules). — Copy of additional 

Rules made pursuant to Paragraph 10 of the Second Schedule of 
the Act, and allowed by the Lord Chancellor, dated 1st September 
1899 [by Act] ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 60 

2. Suprenve Court (Rules). — Copy of Rules of the Supreme Court 

(October), 1899 [by Act] ... ... ... ... ... ... 60 

3. Mersey Docks and Harbour Board. — ^Vccounts of the Mersoy Docks 

and Harbour Board for the year ending 1st July 1899 [by Act] ... 60 



PUBLIC BUSINESS. 
Address in Answer to Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech: — 

(First Day's Debate.) 

Mr. Speaker reported Her Majesty's Speech, and read it to the House. 

Motion made and Question proposed, " That an humble Address be pre- 
sented to Her Majesty, as followeth : — 

" Most Gracious Sovereign, 

" We, your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons 
of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament 
assembled, beg leave to oft'er our humble thanks to Your Majesty for 
the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both 
Houses of Parliament." — {Cajfiain Sir A. Arland-Hood.) 

Discussion :— 

Col. Royds (Rodulale) ... 66 Sir Cluis. Dilke {Glouceskrshire, 

Sir Hy. Campbell-Banner- Forest of Dean) ... ... 85 

man {Stirling Burghs) ... 69 Sir H. Me ysey Thompsan (Stafford - 
The First Lord of the Trca- shire, llandsworth) ... ... 89 

sury {Mr. A. J. Balfour, 

Manchester, E.) ... 77 

Amendment proposed — 

"At the end of the Question, to add the words, 'But we humbly 
represent to your Majesty that the state of war now existing between Gi*eat 
Britain and the South African liepublic has been caused by the assertion of 
claims to interfere in the internal government of the Republic in direct viola- 
tion of the terms of your Majesty's Convention of 1884 ^vitli the Government of 
the South African Republic, and by the massing of large bodies of British troops 
on the frontiers of tne Republic. And we further huuibly represent to your 
Majesty that before more bloodshed takes place proposals should be 
made in the spirit of the recent l*eace Conference at the Hague, with 
a view to finding in an independent and friendly arbitration a settlement 
of the difficulties between the two Governments, and that an ignominious ^Var 
may thus be avoided l»etween the overwhebning forces of your Majesty's 
Empire and those of two small nations numbering together but two hundred 
thousand souls.' " — {Mr. Dillon.) 

Question proposed — " That those words be there added." 

^'2 



Ixviii TABLE OF CONTENTS. 




October 17. 




Page 


Discussion : — 






Mr. lAitmichere {Northamp- 


Sir Ellis Ashmead'BartleU {Sheffield, 




ton) ... ... ... 100 


EcdesalJ) 


1ST 


Mr. Drage (Derby) ... 113 


Mr, PickersgUl {Bethnal Green, 




Mr. Dam {Mayo, S.) ... 120 


*•• '^ •!••• ••• ••• ••• 


140 


Mr, Lowles {bhorediichy 


Mr. Field {Dublin, St. Patrick) ... 


14S 


Haggerston) 129 


Col. Saunderson {Armagh, N.) ... 


151 


Mr. IFiUiam Redmond 


Mr. P. A. M'Hugh {Leitnm, K) 


155 


{Clare, E.) 130 







Question put. 

The House divided :— Ayes, 54 ; Noes, 322. (DiWsion List No. 2.) 

Main Question again proposed : Debate arising ; 

And, it being after midnight, the Debate stood adjourned. 

Debate to be resumed to-morrow. 

Honse adjourned at ten minutes after Twelve o'clock^ 



COMMONS: ^^^DNESDAY, 18th OCTOBER 1899. 

MILlTIA.— The First Lord of the Tre-\sury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Man- 
chester, E.), at the Bar, acquainted the House that he had a Message from 
Her Majesty to this House, signed by Her Majesty's own hand, and he 
presented the same to the House ; and it was read by Mr. Speaker (all 
the Members of the House being uncovered), and it is as foUoweth : 

"Victoria R. 

" The state of affairs in South Africa having constituted in the opinion 
of Her Majesty a case of great emergency within the meaning of the- 
Act of Parliament, Her Majesty deems it proper to provide additional 
means for the Military Service, and therefore has thought it right to 
communicate to the House of Commons that Her Majesty is by Proclama- 
tion about to order the emIxKliment of Militia, and to call out Her Militia 
Reserve Force, or such part thereof as Her Majesty shall thdnk necessary, 
for Permanent Service. 

"Octolicr 1899." 

Ordered, that Her Majesty's Most Gracious Message be taken into con- 
sideration to-morrow 

New Writ. — For the Borough of Tower Hamlets (Bow and Bromley Divisicm), 
in the room of the Hon. Lionel lialeigh Holland (Manor of Northstead). 
— {Sir iniUnm JFalrond) 



161 



161 



PETITIOXS. 

Borough Funds Act, 1872 — Petition from Kettering, for alteration of 

Law; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 161 

Ground Rents (Taxation by Local Authorities)— Petitions in favour, 

from Bii^tol, LUnwinion, and Leyton ; to lie upon the Table ... ... 161 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixix 

October 18.] Pwje 

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC, 

Fink or Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act, 1899 (Rules) — 

Paper [presented 17th October] to be printed. [No. 4] 162 

Polung Districts (County Palatine of Lancaster) — Copy presented, 
of Order made by the County Council of the County Palatine of Lan- 
caster, altering certain Polling Districts in the Parliamentary Division of 
Westhoughton [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table ... ... 162 

Polung Districts (West Ham)— Copy presented, of Order made by the 
Council of the County Borough of West Ham, dividing the Borough Jnto 
Municipal and Parliamentary Polling Districts [by Act] ; to lie upon the 

Tablp 1 fi9 

Polling Districts (Hertfordshire) — Copy presented, of Order made by 
the County Council of Hertfordshire, dividing the Eastern or Hertford 
Parliamentary Division into convenient Polling. Districts [by Act] ; to lie 
upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 162 

'Technical Instruction Act, 1889 — Copies presented, of Minutes sanction- 
ing the subjects to be taught under Clause 8 of the Act, for the following 
Counties, etc. : County of Berkshire (Third Minute), dated 27th July, 
1899 ; County Borough of Portsmouth (Fifth Minute), dated 16th August, 
1899 ; County of the Soke of Peterborough (Seventh Minute), dated 5th 
September, 1899 ; County Borough of Oldham (Sixth Minute), dated 
5th September, 1899; County of Glamorgan (Eighth Minute), dated 
5th September, 1899 ; City and County Borough of Birmingham (Fifth 
Minute), dated 27th September, 1899 [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table ... 162 

Superannuation Act, 1884 — Copies presented, of Treasury Minutes declaring 
that the under-mentioned persons were appointed to the offices set against 
their names without a Civil Service Certificate through inadvertence on 
the part of the Heads of their Departments, viz. : Mr. R. D. Herring, 
Legation Constable, Pekin Consular Service, dated 5th August, 1899 ; 
Mr. Hanmer Lewis Dupuis, formerly Clerk, Tangier Mission, Foreign 
Office, dated 2nd September, 1899 ; Mary Byrne, Sub-Postmistress, 
Beaumaris, Post Office Department, dated 28th September, 1899 [by Act]; 
to lie upon the Table .. . ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 163 

■ 

Superannuation Act, 1887 — Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 
20th September, 1899, granting a retired allowance to Mr. Charles Lewis 
James, Assistant Clerk in the Local Government Board, under Section 2 
of the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... 163 



QUESTIONS 

The Rights of Private Members — Question, Mr. Swift ^LacNeill 

(Donegal, S.) ; Answer, Mr. Speaker ... ... ... ... ... 163 

^Business of the House — Questions, Mr. Lewis (Flint Boroughs), Sir H. 
Campbell-Bannerman (Stirling Burghs), Mr. Humphreys Owen (Mont- 
gomery), Mr. Channing (Northamptonshire, E.), and Mr. Labouchere 
(Northampton) ; Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. 
Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 163 



Ixx TABLK OF CONTENTS. 

October 18.] Page 

PUBLIC BUSINESS. 

Government Business: — 

Motion made, and Question proposed, " That during the Autumn Sittings: 
no Motions for leave to bring in Bills be given except by a Minister 
of the Crown ; that on ever}'^ day Government business do have 
precedence, and at the conclusion thereof Mr. Speaker do adjourn the 
House without Question put ; and that the provisions of Standii^ 
Order No. 56 be extended to all days of the week." — {Mr. A. X 
Balfour.) 

Discussion : — 

SirH, Camphell-Bannernuin Sir Win. Harcouii {Monmouthshire, 

{Stirling Burghs) ... 1 67 P^.) ... ... ... ... 171' 

Hie First Ijyrd of the Trca- Mr, A. J, Balfour 173^ 

sury {Mr. A. J. Balfour, Sir Charles Dilke {Gloucestershire, 

Manchester, E.) ... 168 Forest of DeM.n) 174 

Mr. Bucliannn {Aherdren- Mr. Gibson Bowles {Lynn Regis) .,, 174 

shire, E.) 169 Mr. Swift MacNeill {Donegalr Si) 176* 

Amendment proposed — 

"To leave out the words from the word 'precedence' to the end of the- 
Question."— (Z>r. Clark.) 

Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the^ 
Question," put and agreed to. 

Main Question put. 

The House divided : — Ayes, 279 ; Noes, 48. (^)i^^sion List No. 3.) 

Ordered, That during the Autumn Sittings no Motions for leave to bring 
in Bills be given except by a ^Minister of the Crown ; that on every 
day Government l)usiness do have precedence, and at the conclusion 
thereof Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House without Question put ;. 
and that the provisions of Standing Order No. 56 be extended to all 
the days of the week. 

Address in Answer to Her ISIajesty's Most Gracious Speech: — 

(Second Day's Debate.) 

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [17th October], 
"That an huml)le Addiess bo presented to Her Majesty, as 
followeth : — 

" Most Gracious Sovereign, 

"We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons 
of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament 
assembled, ])eg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the 
Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses 
of Parliament." — {Captain Sir Alexander Acland-Hood.) 

Main Question again proposed. 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixxi 

October 18. J Page 

Amendmeut proposed — 

"At the end of the Question, to add the words : * But we humbly represent 
to Your Majesty our stronjjj disapproval of the conduct of the negotiation!^ with 
the Government of the Transvaal which have involved us in hostilities with the 
two South African Republics.' " — {Mr. Stanhope,) 

Question proposed, " That those words be there added. ' 
Discussion :— 

Mr. S. T. Emns (Glamor- Sir ffm. Harcourt (MojwioutJtshirCy 
gan, Mid) 189 JF.) 209 

Mr. JFankhjn {Bradford ^ The Secretary of State for the 

Central) ... ... 199 Colonies {Mr. J. Cliamherlain, 

Mr. Elliot {Durham) ... 206 Birmingham, JF.) ... ... 213 

Sir JFm. Harcourt ... ... 213 

Debate adjourned till to-morrow. 

In piUBuance of the Order of the House of this day, Mr. Speaker adjourned 
the House without Question put. 

Adjourned at twenty minutes after Five of the Clock. 



LOEDS : THURSDAY, 19th OCTOBER 1899. 

South African Affairs — Embodiment of the Militia — Messacje from 
THE Queen: — 

The Marquess of Salisbury laid before the House the following 
gracious Message from Her Majesty : " The stf.te of affairs in South 
Africa having constituted in the opinion of Her Majesty a case of 
great emergency within the meaning of the Act of Parliament, Her 
Majesty deems it proper to provide additional means for the Military 
Service, and therefore has thought it right to communicate to the 
House of Lords that Her Majesty is, by Proclamation, al)out to order 
the embodiment of the Militia, and to call out Her Militia Reserve 
Force, or such part thereof as Her Majesty may think necessary, for 
permanent service." 

Moved, That Her Majesty's gracious Message be taken into consideration 
forthwith. 

The same was agreed to, and the said Message considered accordingly. 

Then it was moved " That an humble Address be presenteil to Her ' 

Majesty thanking Her Majesty for her most gracious Message com- 
municating to this House Her Majesty^s intention to cause the Militia 
to be embodied, and the Militia Reserve Force, or such part thereof as 
Her Majesty may think necessary, to be forthwith called out for per- 
manent service." Agreed to, nemine dissentiente. 

Ordered that the said Address be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords 

with White Staves ^ 229 



Ixxii TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

mdber 19.] ^«^ 

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 

Army — Memorandum showing the principal heads of expenditiire provided for 
in the Army Supplementary Estimate required in consequence of the 
military situation in South Africa ... ... ... ... ... . • • 229 

Venezuela, No. 7 (1899) (Boundary between the Colony of British 
Guiana and the United States of Venezueia — Award of the 
Tribunal of Arbitration constituted under Article I. of the Treaty of 
Arbitration signed at Washington on 2nd February 1897, between Great 
Britain and the United States of Venezuela. . . ... ... ... ••• 230 

Irish Land Commission (Proceedings)— Returns for the months of July 

and August 1899 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 230 

Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table. 

Superannuation Act,^ 1884 — I. Treasury Minutes, dated respectively 
August 5, September 2, and September 28, 1899, declaring that 
R. D. Herring, Legation constable, Peking Consular service, 
Mr. Hanmer Lewis Dupuis, formerly clerk, Tangier Mission, and Mary 
Bryne, sub-postmistress, Beaumaris, were appointed without civil service 
certificates through inadvertence on the part of the heads of their 

departments. IT. Treasury Minute, dated September 20, 1899, 

granted a retired allowance tc Mr. Charles Lewis James, assistant clerk in 
the Local Government Board, under section 2 of the Supei-annuation 

XJl V/ i/, XOOf ... .•• ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Si v\3 

Polling Districts— Orders Made — 1. By the County Council of the 
county palatine of Lancaster, altering certain polling districts in the 

parliamentary division of Westhoughton. 2. By the Council of the 

County borough of West Ham, dividing the borough into municipal and 
parliamentary polling districts. 3. By the County Council of Hertford- 
shire, dividing the eastern or Hertford Parliamentary division into con- 
venient polling districts ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 230 

General Prison (Ireland) Act, 1877— Order in Council approving of 
rule made by the General Prisons Board in pursuance of the Fine or 
Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act, 1899 231 

Diseases of Animals Acts, 1894 and 1896— Two Orders, dated 30th 
September, entitled respectively the Cardift' Foreign Animals Wharf 
Revocation Order of 1899 and the Cardiff Foreign Animals Order of 1899 231 

Science and Art Department — Minutes of Committee of Council on 
Education sanctioning subjects to be taught under clause 8 of Technical 
Instruction Act, 1889, for — I. Counties of : Glamorgan (eighth minute); 
Berkshire (third minute) ; Oldham (sixth minute) ; the Soke of Peter- 
borough (seventh minute). II. County Borough of Portsmouth (fifth 
minute). III. City and County Borough of Birmingham (fifth minute) ... 231 

Electric Lighting Acts, 1882-1890— Kules made by the Board of Trade 

in pursuance of section 5 of the Electric Lighting Act, 1882 231 

liaid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table. 

House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Five of the clock. 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixxii 

Odober 19.] Page 

COMMONS : THUKSDAY, 19th OCTOBER 1899. 

PETITION. 

Poor Law Amendment (Scotland) Act, 1845— Petition from Boyndie, for 

alteration of Law ; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... 231 



RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC, 

Irish Land Commission (Proceedings) — Copy presented, of Return of 
Proceedings of the Commission during the months of July and August 
1899 (by Command) ; to lie upon the Table • ... ... ... .•• 232 

Fine or Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act (1899) Rules— 
Copy presented, of Order in Council approving of Rule made by the 
(^neral Prisons Board for Ireland under the Fine or Imprisonment (Scot- 
land and Ireland) Act, 1899 (by Act) ; to lie upon the Table 232 

Diseases of Animals Acts, 1894 and 1896 — Copy presented, of two 
Orders, dated the 30th September, 1899, entitled respectively the Cardiff 
Foreign Animals Wharf Revocation Order of 1899 and the Cardiff Foreign 
Animals Wharf Order of 1899 (by Act) ; to lie upon the Table 232 

Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 to 1890— Copy presented, of Rules made 
by the Board of Trade in pursuance of Section (5) of the Electric Lighting 
Act, 1882 (by Act) ; to lie upon the Table 232 

Venezuela (No. 7, 1899)— Copy presented, of Award of the Tribunal of 
Arbitration constituted under Article I. of the Treaty concluded at 
Washington on the 2nd February, 1897, between Her Britannic Majesty 
and the United States of Venezuela respecting the Settlement of the 
Boundary between British Guiana and the United States of Venezuela (by 
Command) ; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... 232 

LocAi. Authorities (England, Wales, and Ireland) (Technical Educa- 
tion) — Return presented, relative thereto (ordered 9th June. 1899; Sir 
John Gorst) ; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. (No. 5) ... ... 232 



QUESTIONS. 

Haulbowline Docks — Accident to the " Prince George " — Question, Mr. 
Field (Dublin, St. Patrick) ; Answer, The Ci^^l Lord of the Admiralty 
(Mr. Austen Chamberlain, Worcestershire, E.) ... ... ... ... 232 

The Guards — Question, Mr. Gibson Bowles (Lynn Regis) ; Answer, The 

Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) 233 

CURRAGHMORE RiFLE Range— Question, Mr. Tuite (Westmeath, N.) ; Answer, 

The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndhara, Dover) 234 

South Africa — Provision for British Troops— Question, Mr. Lowles 
^horeditch, Haggerslon) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the War 
Office (Mr. J. Powell- Williams, Birmingham, S.) 235 



Ixxiv TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 19.] Page 

Outrage by British Soldiers in Rangoon — Questions, Mr. J. H. Roberts 
(Denbighshire, AV.) and Mr. Swift MacNeill (Donegal, S.) ; Answers, The 
Secretaiy of State for India (Lord George Hamilton, Middlesex, Ealing)... 235 

India and the AVar Charges — Question, Mr. Buchanan (Aberdeenshire, E.) ; 
Answer, The Secretary of State for India (Lord George Hamilton, Middle- 
sex, r^anng ) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..» <u«)9 

Australian Federation — Question, Sir Charles Dilke (Gloucestershire, Forest 
of Dean) ; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. J. 
Chamberlain, Birmingham, W.) ... ... ... ... ... ... 236^ 

Pacific Cable— Question, Mr. Hogan (Tipperary, Mid) ; Answer, The Secre- 
taiy of State for the Colonies (Mr. J. Chamberlain, Birmingham, W.) ... 236 

The Jameson Raid— Question, Mr. Swift MacNeill (Donegal, S.) ; Answer, 
The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. J. Chamberlain, Binning- 
nam, ^*.) ••• •*• ... ... ... ... «•. ••• ... ^oi 

The Treatment of Unarmed Uitlander.s — Question, Sir Ellis Asbmead- 
Bartlett (Sheffield, Ecclesall) ; Answer, The Secretary of State for the 
Colonies (Mr. J. Chaml)erlain, Birmingham, W.) ... ... ... ... 237 

Case of Mr. Lanha.m— Question, Sir Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett (Sheffield, 
Ecclesall) ; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. J. 
Chamberlain, Birmingham, W.) 238 

Queenstown Postmen— Scale of AVages — Question, Captain Donelan 
(Cork, E.) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. 
Hanburj^ Preston) 238 

Royal Commission on Local Taxation — Irish Evidence — Question, Mr. 
Austin (Limerick, W.) ; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home 
Department (Sir M. White Ridley, Lancashire, Blackpool) 238 

Naturalisation of Aliens— Questions, Mr. P. A. M*Hugh (Leitrim, N.) 
and Mr. Swift MacNeill (Donegal, S.) ; Answers, The Secretary of State 
for the Home Depiitment (Sir M. White Ridley, Lancashire, Blackpool)... 239 

Mallaig Railway Extension— Question, Mr. AVeir (Ross and Cromarty); 

Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Ritchie, Croydon) ... 240 

Rabies — Question, Mr. Lough (Islington, W.) ; Answer, The President of the 

Board of Agriculture (Mr. Long, Liverpool, West Derby) ... ... ... 240 

The Education of Dumb Children — Question, Mr. Coghill (Stoke-on- 
Trent) ; Answer, The Vice President of the Committee of Council on 
Education (Sir J. Gorst, Cambridge University) ... ... ... ... 240 

Case of James Colquhoin - Question, Sir Chas. Cameron (Glasgow, Bridge- 
ton) ; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. A. G. Murray, Buteshire) ... 241 

Irish Fishing Industry — Question, Mr. Field (Dublin, St. Patrick) ; Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ^ 241 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixxv 

^ober 19.] Page 

'AUPKR Transfers to Ireland— Questions, Mr. Field (Dublin, St. Patrick) 
and Mr. Flavin (Kerry, N.) ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland 
(Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) 242 

ECHNICAL AND PRIMARY EDUCATION IN IRELAND— Question, Mr. Field 
(Dublin, St. Patrick) ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. 
W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... 243 

WSH Truant Boys— Question, Captain Donelan (Cork, E.) ; Answer, The 

Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) 243 

team Trawlers in Irish Waters— Question, Captain Donelan (Cork, E.) ; 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, 

\jG\\\j\ak\.j ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... aTcij 

IISH Lunacy Grant in Aid— Question, Captain Donelan (Cork, E.); 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. \Y. Balfour, Leeds, 

\Jvit\iTati,j ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ^^'x 

[ULUNGAR Courthouse — Question, Mr Tuite (Westmeath, N.) ; Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... 245 

USH Land Commission — Question, Mr. Maurice Healy (Cork) ; Answer, The 

Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... 246 

iMOA — Question, Mr. Hogan (Tipperary, Mid) ; Answer, The First Lord of 
the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... 246 

NGLISH Consuls in Finland — Questions, Mr. Lough (Islington, W.) and 
Mr. Weir (Ross and Cromarty) ; Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury 
(Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... ... ... 247 

EiB Cape Colony Ministry — Question, Mr. Swift MacNeill (Donegal, S.) ; 
Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Man- 

vUtiSolrd , x!i« I ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ••. ^%0 

OK Transvaal War — Alleged Seditious Speeches by Irish Members — 
Questions, Mr. Seton-Karr (St. Helens), Mr. William Redmond (Clare, E.), 
and Mr. Swift MacNeill (Donegal, S.) ; Answers, The First Lord of the 
Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... 248 

(JSINEss of the House — Questions, Mr. AVilliani Redmond (Clare, E.), Mr. 
Steadman (Tower Hamlets, Stepney), and Sir H. Campbell -Bannerman 
(Stirling Burghs) ; Answers, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. 
Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 250 

PUBLIC BUSINESS. 
ddrkss in Answer to Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech : — 

(Third Day's Debate.) 

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed 
[18th October] to Main Question [17th October], " That an humble 
Address be presented to Her Majesty, as followeth : — 

" Most Gracious Sovereign, 

"We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the 
Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, 



Ixxvi TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

Octobei' 19. J Page 

in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to 
Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has 
addressed to both Houses of Parliament." — {CwpUiin Sir Alexander 
Achind'Hood,) 

And which Amendment was, at the end of the Question, to add the 
wordj 



" But we humbly represent to your Majesty our strong disapproval of the 
conduct of the negotiations witli the Government of the Transvaal which have 
involved us in hostilities with the two South African Republics.'' — (Mr. 
Stanhope, ) 

Question again proposed — **That those words be there added." 

Discussion : — 

The Secretary of Slide for the Dr. Clark (CaithTiess) 329 

Colonies (Mr. J. Chundjer- Mr. Scott Montagu {HarUs, New 

lain, BirmirKjhani, JV.)... 254 Forest) ... ... ... ... 338 

Sir Edward Clarke {Ply- Mr. John Morley {Montrose Burghs) 340 

moiUh) 300 Mr. Courtney {Cornwall, Bodmin) 348 

Mr. Haldam {Haddington) 315 The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. 

Mr. C. P. Scott {Lancmhire, A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.) 356 

Leigh) ... ... ... 321 

It being Midnight, Mr. Speaker proceeded to interrupt the business : — 

Whereupon Mr. Balfour rose in his place, and claimed to move, " That 
the Question be now put." 

Question put, *' That the Question be now put." 

The House divided :— Ayes, 356; Noes, 158. (Division List No. 4.) 

' Question put accordingly, " That those words be there added." 

The House divided : — Ayes, 135 ; Noes, 362. (Division List No. 5.) 

Mr. Balfour claimed, " That the Main Question be now put. 

Main Question put accordingly, and agreed to. 

Resolved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as 
followeth : — 

" Most Gracious Sovereign, 

" We Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the 
Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in 
Parliament assembled, beg- leave to ofter our humble thanks to Your 
Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed 
to both Houses of Parliament." 

To be presented by Pi-ivy Councillors and Members of Her Majesty's 
Household. 

Supply. — Resolved, That this House will. To-morrow, resolve itself into a 

Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. 

Ordered, That the Estimate presented to this House on the 17th instant 
be referred to the Committee of Supply. — {Mr. Haiihnry.) 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixxvu 

0d6l>ei' 19.] Page 

Ways and Means. — Resolved, that this House will, To-morrow, resolve itself 
into a Committee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising the 
Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. — {Mr, Horibury,) 

In pursuance of the Order of the House on the 1 8th day of this instant 
October, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put. 

Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes before One of tlie clock. 



COMMONS: FRIDAY, 20th OCTOBER 1899. 

PETITIONS, 

National Old Age Pensions — Petition from Edgefield, in favour; to lie 

upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 373" 

Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday — Petitions against, from Nor- 
wood, and Paddington ; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... 373 

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 

Fine or Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act, 1899 (Rules) — 

Paper [presented 19th October] to be printed. [No: 6] 373 

Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 to 1890— Paper [presented 19th October] to 

be printed. [No. 7] ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 373 

Contempt of Court (Ireland) (Persons Committed) — Return ordered, 
" Setting forth the names and addresses of all persons who within the five 
years ended the 1st day of October, 1899, have been committed to un- 
limited terms of imprisonment for contempt of court in Ireland, the 
names of the judges who issued the orders of attachment, the charges 
against the persons attached, and the duration of imprisonment in each 
case in which the order for attachment was executed." — {Mr, P. A, 

lYl JlI UQ/vf ... ... ... ... ... ••. ... ... ••. V I V 

QUESTIONS, 

Naval Uniforms — Question, Mr. Gibson Bowles (Lynn Regis) ; Answer, The 
First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr.. Goschen, St. George's, Hanover 

K3vJ Ltd* a t>la«» ■•• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• %J W 99 

Transvaal War — Public Supply of Official News — Question, Sir Howard 
Vincent (Sheffield, Central) ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for 
War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover)... ... ... ... ... ... ... 375 

Progress of the War — Questions, Mr. J. P. Smith (Lanark, Partick) and Sir 
J. Fergusson (Manchester, N.E.) ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State 
for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) ... ... ... ... ... ... 375 

Doncaster Allotments — Question, Sir Walter Foster (Derbyshire, Ilkeston) ; 
Answer, The Secretary to the Local Government Board (Mr. T. W. 
Russell, Tyrone, S.) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 376 



Ixxviu TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

^ October 20.] Page 

^RoYAL Canal, Ireland — Question, Mr Tuite (Westmeath, N.) ; Answer, The 

Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury, Preston) ... ... 377 

Stornoway Mail Service- -Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and Cromarty); 

Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury, Preston) 378 

Dog Muzzling in Ireland — Question, Mr. Daly (Monaghan, S.) ; Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... 378 

Disabled Irish Sailors — Question, Mr. Daly (Monaghan, S.) ; Answer, The 

Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... 379 

MuLLiNGAR Courthouse — Question, Mr. Tuite (Westmeath, N.); Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... 379 

Irish Pauper Removals — Questions, Mr. W. J. Corbet (Wicklow, E.) and 
Mr. Flavin (Kerry, N.) ; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. 
G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... ... ... ... ... 380 

Lunacy Report — Question, Mr. W. J. Corbet (Wicklow, E.) ; Answer, The 

Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... 380 

Irish Peasant Proprietary — Question, Captain Donelan (Cork, K) ; 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, 
vyeni/rai ) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... oo x 

"Evictions in County Leitrim— Case of Mrs. O'Donnel — Question, Mr. . 
P. A. M*Hugh (Leitrim, N.) ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland 
(Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) 381 

Troclaimed Irish Meeting— Question, Mr. P. A. M*Hugh (Leitrim, N.); 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, 

v^eni'i £vi I ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... oo X 

Irish Intermediate Education — Question, Mr. Field (Dublin, St. Patrick); 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, 

vytJllliL dX I ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... *jO^ 

Irish Local Govern.ment Act — Question, Mr. Swift MacNeill (Donegal, S.); 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeils, 
v^emrai I >•. .•-. ..-. ... •*. ... ... ... ... oOm 

^British Consuls in Finland — Question, Sir Charles Dilke (Gloucestershire, 
Forest of Dean) ; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. 
Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... ... ... 384 

Delagoa Bay — Question, Sir Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett (Sheffield, Ecclesall) : 
Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Man- 

\/Xlt70v\yX , £jm J ..'. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 00« 

Samoa — Question, Mr. Hogan (Tipperary, Mid) ; Answer, The First Lord of 

the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... 384- 

The Hydrographical Conference— Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and 
Cromarty) ; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, 
Manchester, E.) ... . .- ... ... ... ... ... ... 385 



TAULE OF CONTENTS. Ixxsi 

Page 

(to diaorderly conduct, directed him to withdraw 

,e during the remainder of the day's sitting. Mr. 

to o!>ey the order of tlie Chair. Whereupon the 

9 Serjuunt, who removed Mr. William Redmond from 

d-Barllett 466 Mr. Doogan {Tyrone, E.) 475 

''.I (Done- Dr. Clark (Caithness) 476 

... 471 Mr.mUm 479 

V. V {Slifop- The First Lord of the Treasury {Mr. 

') 475 A.J. Bat/our, Maiicliester, £.) 480 

iitei) upon Monday next. 

' hf the Order of the House of the 18th day of this instant 
\ Mr. Speaker iidjcurned the House without Question put. 

Adjourned accordingly at ten minutes before Twelve of the clock. 



JMMONS: MONDAY, 23rd OCTOBER 1899. 



Taxation by LocjlL Authorities)— Petitions in favour, from 
ninea, and Stockport ; to lie upon the Table ... 

I 1879, 1888, AND 1898— Petitions for alteration of law, 
ter, and Manchester and Salford ; to tie upon the Table ... 

UTiNG Liquors on Sunday — Petitions against, from Kilburn, 
tfb, Wortham, Saxmundham, and Penzance : to lie upon the 



RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 

3 (Annual) — Copy presented, of Report, No. 276 (Gibraltar 
lort for 1898) [by Command] ; to lie upon the Table 

i (Annual)— Copy presented, of Report, No. 275 (British 

ftiblauds, Annual Report for 1898-9) [by Command] ; to lie upon 



J Oxford and Cambridge Act, 1877 (Oxford) — Copy pre- 

k Statute made by the Governing Body of Worcester College, 

fift meeting held on the 22nd February 1899, and continued by 

■^Ifr on the 8th March 1899, amending Statute HI. 10 of the 

f Uie College [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table, and to be 

SftS] 

I OF Oxford and Cambridge Act, 1877 (Oxford)— Copy pre- 
f .B Statuto made liy the Governing Body of Brasenose Uoilege, 
B the 16th March 1899, amending Statutes III. and XIV. of the 
'iSutes [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. 



BIL [Fourth Skri^s.] / 



Ixxxii TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 23.] Page 

Universities of Oxford and Cambridge Act, 1877 (Oxford) — Copy pre- 
sented, of a Statute made by the Governing Body of Pembroke College, 
Oxford, on 3rd March 1899, amending Clause 9 of Statute II. and Clause 
3 of Statute VIII. of the College Statutes [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table, 
and to be printed. [No. 10] 485 

QUESTIONS. 

Transvaal War — Selection of Troops for Active Service — Question, 
Major Wyndham-Quin (Glamorganshire, S.) ; Answer, The Under Secre- 
tary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) 486 

Army Estimates — Special Services in South Africa — Question, Mr. 
Buchanan (Aberdeenshire, E.) ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State 
for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) 486 

Progress of the War — Question, Mr. Banbury (Camberwell, Peckham) ; 

Answer, The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover)... 486 

Troops at Belfast — Question, Mr. Macaleese (Monaghan, N.) ; Answer, 

The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) ... ... 487 

Health of Troops in I\I)L\ — Question, Sir J. Fergusson (Manchester, 
N.E.) ; Answer, The Secretary of State for India (Lord G. Hamilton, 
Middlesex, Ealing) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 487 

Calcutta Municipal Bill —Question, Mr. J. H. Eoberts (Denbighshire, 
W.) ; Answer, The Secretary of State for India (Lord G. Hamilton, 
Middlesex, Ealing) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 488 

England and Abyssinia— Question, Sir Charles Dilke (Gloucestershire, 
. Forest of Dean) ; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. 
Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 488 

The Waima Incident— Question, Mr. Bill (Staffordshire, Leek) ; Answer, 

The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... 489 

English Language at Malta — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and Cromarty) ; 
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. J. Chamberlain, 
Birmingham, W.) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 489 

Australian Commonwealth Bill — Question, Mr. Galloway (Manchester, 
S.W.) ; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. J. Chamber- 
lain, JBirmingham, W.) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 490 

Irregular Nonconformist Marriages — Question, Mr. Carvell Williams 
(Nottinghamshire, Mansfield) ; Answer, The President of the Local 
Grovernment Board (Mr. Chaplin, Lincolnshire, Sleaford) ... ... ... 490 

South Kensington Museum— Question, Mr. Maurice Healy (Cork) ; Answer, 
The Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education (Sir J. 
Gorst, Cambridge L^ni verity) ... ... ... ... ... ... 491 

Inebriates' Reformatories— Question, Mr. Pickersgill (Bethnal Green, 
S.AV.) ; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir 
M. White -Kidley, Lancashire, Blackpool) 491 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixxxiu 

Oekber 23.] Page 

Electric Traction on Metropolitan Railways — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross 
and Cromarty) ; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Ritchie, 

\^*wjr vlWU I ... •». ••. ••• ••• ... ... ••. ••• %«7w 

CJOMMUNICATION ON PASSENGER TRAINS — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and 
Cromarty) ; Answer, The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Ritchie, 

^^fvV UvlU I ..• ••* ••. ••. ... •». ••• ••• ... ^wO 

MuzzLiNO Order in LANCAsmRE — Question, Mr. Galloway (Manchester, 
S.W.) ; Answer, The President of the Board of Agriculture (Mr. Long, 
Liverpool, West Derby) 493 

Illegal Trawung off the Island of Lewis — Question, Mr. Lewis (Ross 
and Cromarty) j Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. A. Graham Murray, 

x^Uvesiiire I ... ..• ..• ••• •«. ••• ... ,.. ,.« ^w v 

Highland Fishery Loans — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and Cromarty); Answer, 

The Lord Advocate (Mr. A. Graham Murray, Buteshire) 494 

Bridge-of-Weir Orphan Homes — Question, Sir Charles Cameron (Glasgow, 
Bridgeton) ; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. A. Graham Murray, 

^3UueBUlA 6 / ••• ••• ••• ... ... .*• ••• ••• ••• 4t74 

New Postage Stamps — Question, Mr. Henniker Heaton (Canterbury) ; 
Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury, 

x^xvol/Oil I ••. ••• ... ••• •». ••. ••• ... ... 4t7i/ 

North of Ireland Mail Service — Question, Colonel M*Calmont (Antrim, 
N.) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury, 
jr resvCiui ••• ••• ••• ••• ••« ••• ••• ••• ••• 4«7v 

CrviL Service Examinations — Question, Mr. Maurice Healy (Cork) ; Answer, 

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury, Preston) ... 496 

Kerry Postmen — Question, Mr. Flavin (Kerry, N.) ; Answer, The Financial 

— ' Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury, Preston) 496 

FairIRent Cases in Ulster — Question, Mr. M^Cartan (Down, S.) ; Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... 496 

Agrarian Crime in Clare— Question, Mr. William Redmond (Clare, K); 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, 

^^OXl vlcll I ••• ••• ••• ... ... ... ••. ... ••• 4«7f 

Lanesborough Estate Tenants — Question, Mr. Macaleese (Monaghan, N.) ; 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, 
\^eniirai J ... ... ... ... .«• ••• ... ... ... 4t7o 

Mr. Michael Clarke's Arms Licence — Question, Mr. Roche (Kerry, E.^ ; 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeos, 
^^en vrai i ... «•• ... ... ••• •.• ... ... ... 4«7o 

Flax Cultivation in Ireland — Question, Mr. Daly (Monaghan, E.^ ; 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeas, 

\^i^Tiijrai I ... ••• ..• ••. .•• ... ... ... ... 4v«/ 



Ixxxiv TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 23.] Page 

Imprisonment for Contempt of Court — Case of Daniel O'Donnell — 
Question, Mr. P. A. M*Hugh (Leitrim, N.) ; Answer, The Chief Secretary 
for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... 499 

Manorhamilton Waterworks — Questions, Mr. P. A. M*Hugh (Leitrim, N.) 
and Mr. Dillon (Mayo, E.) ; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland 
(Mr. 6. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central)... .... ... ... 500' 

Proclaimed Meeting in County Leitrim — Question, Mr. P. A. M'Hugh 
(Leitrim, N.) ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. 
Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 501 

Irish Lay Assistant Commissioners — Question, Mr. Maurice Healy (Cork) ; 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, 

v^x^il uX CuL J ••• ••• ••• ■•• ••■ «•• ••« ••« ••• V V X 

Irish Land Commission — Question, Mr. Maurice Healy (Cork); Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... 501 

Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1896— Question, Mr. Maurice Healy (Cork); 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, 
v^envrai ) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ukjo' 

Ware's Estate. — Question, Mr. Maurice Healy (Cork) ; Answer, The Chief 

Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... 503. 

Irish Local Government Rules — Question, Mr. Maurice Healy (Cork); 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, 
oeni/rai ) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Ovo' 

Small Holdings in County Mayo — Question, Dr. Robert Ambrose (Mayo, 
W.) ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, 

v^cUuLc*! I ... ... ••• ... ... ... ... ... ... l/v%- 

MuLLiNGAR Courthouse— Question, Mr. Tuite (Westmeath, N.) ; Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... 504 

Imprisonment for Contempt of Court — Case of Dolan, McGrail, 
Rag AN, AND Gallagher— Question, Mr. P. A. M'Hugh (Leitrim, N.J ; 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeos, 
v/eniirai) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..• Ovo* 

Business of the House— Standing Orders — Question, Mr. Duncombe 
(Cumberland, Egremont) ; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. 
A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... 506- 

Transvaal Affairs— The Hawksley Correspondence — Question, Mr. 
Stanhope (Burnley) ; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. 
Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 606» 



Sittings of the House (Exemption from the Standing Order) :— 

Motion made, and Question put, "That the proceedings of the Committee 
of Ways and Means, if the Committee be sitting at Twelve o'clock 
this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order Sittings of 
the House." — {Mr. A. J. Balfour.) 

The House divided — Ayes, 271 ; Noes, 40. (Division List No, 10.) 



^. « - •- 



TABLE OF CONTENTS 
Odd>er 23.] 

WAYS AND MEANS.— Considered in Committee. 






EXCUKQVER ElLl^ 



Motion made, and Question proposed, *' That towanU miniiv^ the Svip|4y 
granted to Her Majesty, the Treasury be authi^rined to miae Huy 
sum not exceeding eight million pounds by the iiisue \A 'l\'ea*\U'y 
bills. — (Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.) 



Discussion : — 

Sir H, Campbell-Banner' 

man (Stirling Burghs) ... 517 
Mr, Dillm (Mayo, E.) ... 518 
Sir John Lubbock (London 

University) ... ... 527 

Mr, Gibson Bowles (Lynn 

Regis) ... ... ... 528 

Mr. H. J, Wilson (York, 

fF.R, Holmfirth) ... 530 
Sir F. Dixon - Hartlaml 

(Middlesex, Uxbridge) ... 531 

Question put. 



Mr. Swift Mae.XeiU (Ihrn^d, S,) 631 

Mr. (Men (hlington, K,) * ... 533 
Mr. I>U('ku\trth (LamH^ahiiet 

MuliUdon) 533 

Mr. Alexander Vrasm (iHmHjiiU\ 

Cmnlnchie) ... ... ... 631 

Mr. Libomhtre (Northiunjttm) ... 536 
Mr. John Wilmtn (Falkirk 

Jiurf/ha) ... ... ... 637 

Mr. miliam Uedmond (Clare, A'.) 63H 

Mr. E. C. Shaw (Sta/I'ml) ... 640 



The Committee divided : — Ayes, 336 ; Noon, 28, (Divixinii IjNt No, 1 1), 



CONSOLirUTED FlJSl). 

Motion made, and Question put, '^That t^>wardM makiri/^ i/^inal iUn Hiipply 
granted to Her Majesty for the ijcrvic/j of i\m ytuw «to/|jog on iUt$ 
31st day of March, 1900, the sum (4 J^I0,0O0,OW \fiiui%nUui out of 
the Consolidated Fund of the Unite^J Kirii^dowi," -(Mr. Chtmell^/r of 
the Exchequer.) 

Tlie Committee di\Td€d :— Aye«, 336 ; Xoe«<, 27, llHvmum Lmi Sft, IX f 

Besc^ntioiis to be reporuA UHnf^nfm, 

The House nssauytd. 



Mr. C-oWw^J * L/iMrhskir^, ift//,,. 



^** 



0*0 



ft 



'V* 



»/ 



SUPPLY (^ilH O0T*>M3k: .— V.^i¥k*JlX^Mik i'^H^M ; 

if 

said lr*juit*c m i*'ju*»: 4iuc <-*^*>i*c Ctu*!^*;^ vm; v**^ 4?iiCu<*jf ''.M, ^A^ 'clip. 
Her JA»J4xi^y. ^v o^lu^; !:i*t «n<i»tfj£;t i«'tu<it ••iL ♦amu*. it *-vu**» ^ 



Ixxxvi TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

Odc^ei' 23.] Poge 

additional ' expenditure, in consequence of the military situation in 
South Africa, in respect of the following Army Services, viz. : — 



Vote 1. Pay, &c., of the Army .... 
Vote 2. Medical Establishments : Pay, &c. 
Vote 3. Militia : Pay, &c. 
Vote 6. Transports and Remounts 
Vote 7. Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies. 
Vote 8. Clothing Establishments and Services . 
Vote 9. Warlike and other Stores 
Vote 10. Works, &c. : Cost (including Staff for En- 
gineer Services)... ... ... ... ... ... 100,000 



£ 
1,000,000 
50,000 
250,000 
4,900,000 
1,900,000 
650,000 
1,150,000 



Total £10,000,000." 549 

Resolutions read a second time. 

Motion made, and Question proposed, " That this House doth agree with 
the Committee in the First Resolution." 

Discussion : — 

Mr. Eiimunfl Robertson The Under Secretary of State for 

(Dundee) 550 War {Mr. Wyndhaniy Daver) ... 550 

Mr. Dalziel (Kirkcaldy 

Burghs) ... ... 550 

Question put. 

The House divided : — Ayes, 333 ; Noes, 29. (Division List No. 13.) 

Resolution agreed to. 

Motion made and Question proposed, " That this House doth agree with 
the Committee in the Second Resolution." 

Discussion : — 

Mr. J. H. Lewis (Flint Mr. JVyndham 555 

Boroughs) 553 Mr. Patrick O^Brien (Kilkenny) ... 555 

Motion made and Question put, "That Mr. Patrick O'Brien be suspended 
from the Service of the House." — (Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.) 

The House divided : — Ayes, 316 ; Noes, 26. (Division List No 14.) 

Whereupon Mr. Speaker directed Mr. Patrick O'Brien to withdraw. 

The hon. Member then withdrew. 

Discussion resumed : — 

Mr. Dillon ... ... 561 Mr. JFilliam Redmond ... ... 564 

Mr. WyndJuim ... ... 563 

Question put, " That this House doth agree with the Committee in the 
Second Resolution." 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixxxvii 

October 23.] Page 

The House divided : — Ayes, 308 ; Noes, 29. (Division List No. 15.) 
Sesolution agreed to. 

In pursuance of the Order of the House on the 18th day of this instant 
October, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put. 

Adjourned accordingly at Eight of the clock. 



COMMONS: TUESDAY, 24th OCTOBER 1899. 

PETITIONS. 

Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday — Petition from Carnforth, against ; 

to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 569 

Statue of Oliver Cromwell — Petitions against erection on public land, 

from London and other places, and Portsea ; to lie upon the Table . . . 569 

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 

Foreign Jurisdiction Act, 1890 — Copy presented, of Order in Council of 
7th October, 1899, entitled "The Somaliland Order in Council, 1899 " [by 
Act] ; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 569 

Foreign Jurisdiction Act, 1890 — Copy presented, of Order in Council, of 
7th October, 1899, entitled " The East Africa Order in Council, 1899 " [by 
Act]; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 569 

Foreign Jurisdiction Act, 1890 — Copy presented, of Order in Council of 
7th October, 1899, discontinuing the operation of the Orders in Council 
regulating Her Majesty's Consular Jurisdiction in the Empire of Japan, 
as from 4th August, 1899 [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table ... ... 569 

Merchant Shipping Act, 1894 — Copy presented, of Order in Council of 7th 
October, 1899, approving certain Pilotage Bye-laws made by the Cork 
Harbour Commissioners [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... 569 

Public Revenue (Interception) — Return ordered, " of the Amounts of all 
Public Revenue derived from Taxes levied by Parliament, and from any 
other sources which are not paid into Her Majesty's Exchequer, for the 
years 1896-97, 1897-98, and 1898-99, with the totals in each case (in con- 
tinuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 136, of Session 1898)." — {Mr. 
Gibson Bowles) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 569 

QUESTIONS. 

Overtime in the Deptford Victualling Yard — Question, Mr. Steadman 
(Tower Hamlets, Stepney) ; Answer, The First Lord of the Admiralty 
(Mr. Goschen, St. George's, Hanover Square) ... ... ... ... 570 

Army Recruiting Statistics — Question, Sir Charles Dilke (Gloucestershire, 
Forest of Dean) ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. 
Wyndham, Dover) ... ... .-.. ... ... ... ... ... 571 



Ixxxviii TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 24.] Fa^e 

Transvaal War — Transport of Troops — Foreign Sailors on British 
Ships — Question, Mr. Steadman (Tower Hamlets, Stepney) ; Answer, The 
First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Goschen, St. George's, Hanover Square) 571 

Armed Cruisers to be Used for Transport — Question, Sir Howard 
Vincent (Sheffield, Central) ; Answer, The First Lord of the Admiralty 
(Mr. Goschen, St. George's, Hanover Square) ... ... ... ... 572 

Distributing of War News by the Post Office — Question, Colonel 
Milward (Stratford-on-Avon) ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for 
War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover)... ... ... ... ... ... ... 572 

Grants to Reservists' Famiues — Question, Sir Edward Gourley (Sunder- 
land) ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, 

Jl/\J V \7X !•■• ••• •*» ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• V I mS 

Treatment of the Wounded — Questions, Sir Walter Foster (Derbyshire, 
Ilkeston) and Mr. Dillon (Mayo, E.) ; Answers, The Under Secretary 
of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) ... ... ... ... ... 573 

Progress of the War — Question, Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman (Stirling 
Burghs) ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, 

Dnvpr^ 574. 

•Am' V/ t \J^ m • • • ••• ••• ••• •■• •■• •*• ••• ••• •■• %^ ■ ^ 

Pensions for Widows of the Slain — Question, Mr. James O'Connor 
(Wicklow, W.) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. 
J. Powell-Williams, Birmingham, S.) ... ... ... ... ... 575 

Metropolitan Policemen as Army Reservists — Question, Captain Norton 
(Newington, W.) ; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Depart- 
ment (Sir M. White Ridley, Lancashire, Blackpool) 575 

Poor Law^ Guardians and the Families of Reservists — Question, Mr. 
Hazell (Leicester) ; Answer, The Secretary to the Local Government 
Board (Mr. T. W. Russell, Tyrone, S.) ..". 576 

Army Reserves in the Postal Service — Question, Mr. Steadman (Tower 
Hamlets, Stepney) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury 
(Mr. Hanbury, Preston) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 576 

Fort George Water Supply — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and Cromarty); 

Answer, The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) 576 

Army Statistics— Question, Sir Charles Dilke (Gloucestershire, Forest of 
Dean) ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, 

Jl^XJ t vX !••• ••• •■• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• •«• ^# m 9 

Government Property on Salisbury Plain — Question, Mr. Thomas 
Bayley (Derbyshire, Chesterfield) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to 
the War Office (Mr. Powell-Williams, Birmingham, S.) 577 

British New Guinea — Question, Mr. Hogan (Tipperary, Mid) ; Answer, The 

Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. J. Chamberlain, Birmingham, W.) 577 

Alaska — Question, Mr. Hogan (Tipperary, Mid) ; Answer, The First Lord of 

the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.) 578 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. Ixxxix 

October 24.] Page 

Samoa— Roman Catholic Mission Stations— Question, Mr. Hogan (Tip- 
perary, Mid) ; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, 
Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 578 

Ordnance Survey in Ireland — Question, Mr. Maurice Healy (Cork); 
Answer, The President of the Board of Agriculture (Mr. Long, Liverpool, 
West Derby) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 579 

Dog Muzzling Order in the Metropolis— Questions, Mr. Cohen (Islington, 
K) and Mr. Lough (Islington, W.) ; Answers, The President of the Board 
of Agriculture (Mr. Long, Liverpool, West Derby)... ... ... ... 580 

Workmen's Dwellings in London — Question, Mr. Pickersgill (Bethnal 
Green; S.W.) ; Answer, The Secretary of State for the Home Department 
(Sir M. White Ridley. Lancashire, Blackpool) ... ... ... ... 580 

Parliamentary Registers in the Highlands — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross 
and Cromarty) ; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. A. Graham Murray, 
Buteshire) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 580 

Carloway Road, Island of Lewis — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and 
Cromarty) ; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. A. Graham Murray, Bute- 
smre) ... ... ... ... ••• ... ... ••• ••• ••• *jgl 

Aitchnashellach Deer Forest — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and Cromarty) ; 

Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. A. Graham Murray, Buteshire) ... 581 

Light Railways in the Highlands — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and 
Cromarty) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. 
Hanbury, Preston) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 581 

Australian Mints — Question, Mr. Hogan (Tipperary, Mid) ; Answer, The 

Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury, Preston) ... ... 582 

Clones Post Office — Question, Mr. Macaleese (Monaghan, N.); Answer, 

The Financial Secretarj^ to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury, Preston) ... 582 

SUGO. Post Office— Question, Mr. P. A. M'Hugh (Leitrim, N.) ; Answer, 

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury, Preston) ... 582 

Welsh Elementary Education Report — Question, Mr. Lewis (Flint 
Boroughs) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Han- 
bury, Preston) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 583 

Deportation of Irish Paupers from Scotland — Question, Mr. M*Cartan 

iDown, S.) ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, 
jCeds, Central) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 583 

Firies Police Barracks — Question, Mr. Flavin (Kerry, N.) ; Answer, The 

Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W.Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... 584 

Irish Dispensary Doctors' Holidays — Question, Mr. Daly (Monaghan, S.) ; 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, 
v^fs^urcii J ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... t/o% 

Evictions in Leitrim — Case of Mrs. 0*Donnell— Question, Mr. P. A. 
M*Hugh (Leitrim, N.) ; Answer, The Chief S3cretary for Ireland (Mr. 
G, W, Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... ... ... ... ... 585 



xc TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 24.] Pagt 

Seizure of a United Irish League Flag at Dromahair — Questions, 
Mr. P. A. M'Hugh (Leitrim, N,) and Mr. Dillon (Mayo, E.) ; Answers, The 
Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) 586 

Beer Shops in Ireland — Question, Mr. J. H. M. Campbell (Dublin, St. 
Stephen's Green) ; Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. 
Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 586 

Irish Land Commission — Question, Mr. Maurice Healy (Cork); Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... 587 

Fair Rent Cases in Kerry — Question, Mr. Flavin (Kerry, N.) ; Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... 588 

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE, 

Questions — Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman (Stirling Burghs) and Mr. Dalziel 

(Kirkcaldy Burghs) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 589' 

Answers — The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, K) 589- 

Second Session (Explanation) — Bill to explain references in the Acts of the 
last Session of Parliament to the next Session, ordered to be brought in 
by Mr. Attorney General, the Lord Advocate, and Mr. Solicitor General... 590 

Second Session (Explanation) Bill — " To explain references in the Acts of 
the last Session of Parliament to the next Session," presented accordingly, 
and read the first time ; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be 
printed. [Bill 1] ... ... ... 590' 

WAYS AND MEANS (23 rd October)— Resolutions reported :— 

Treasury Bills. 

" That towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, the Treasury 
be authorised to raise any sum not exceeding eight million pounds 
by the issue of Treasury bills ".. . ... ... ... ... ... 590* 

Consolidated Fund. 

" That towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for 
the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1900, the 
sum of £10,000,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the 
United Kingdom" ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 590> 

Resolutions read a second time. 

Motion made, and Question put, " That this House doth agree with the 
Committee in the First Resolution." 

The House divided ; — Ayes, 237 ; Noes, 25. (Division List No. 16.) 

Bill ordered to ])e brought in l>y Mr. James William Lowther, Mr. Chan- 
cellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Hanbury. 

Motion made, and Question put, " That this House doth agree with the 
Committee in the Second Resolution." 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. xci 

October 24.] Pa^e 

The House divided : — Ayes, 255 ; Noes, 23. (Division List No. 17.) 

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. James William Lowther, Mr. 
Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Hanbury. 

Treasury Bills Bill — " To raise money by Treasury bills for the service of 
the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine 
hundred," presented accordingly, and read the first time ; to be read a 
second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 2] ... ... ... 595 

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill—" To apply a sum out of the 

Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first 
day of March, one thousand nine hundred, and to appropriate the Supplies 
granted in this Session of Parliament," presented accordingly, and read the 
first time ; to be read a second time To-morrow ... ... ... ... 595 

In pursuance of the Order of the House of the 18th day of this instant 
October, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put. 

Adjourned accordingly at a quarter after Four of the clock. 



COMMONS: WEDNESDAY, 25th OCTOBER 1899. 

PETITION. 

National Old Age Pensions — Petition from Whitley Upper, in favour ; 

to lie upon the Table .. . ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 597 



RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 

Light Railways Act, 1896 — Copy presented, of Order made by the Light 
Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of 
Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways from Wallingford, 
in the county of Berks, to Benson, in the county of Oxford, and near 
Didcot, in the county of Berks (Didcot and Watlington Light Railway 
Extensions Order, 1899) [by Command] ; to lie upon the Table 597 

Light Railways Act, 1896 — Copy presented, of Order made by the Light 

Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of 

Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of 

Montgomery, between Welshpool and Llanfair Caereinion (Welshpool and 

Llanfair Light Railway Order, 1899) [by Command]; to lie upon the 
TaWft fSQ7 

Light Railways Act, 1896 — Copy presented, of Order made by the Light 
Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of 
Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the county of 
Essex, in and near to the borough of Southend-on-Sea (Southend-on-Sea 
and District Light Railway Order, 1899) [by Command] ; to lie upon 
biie xaoie ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... tju » 



xcii TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 25.] Page 

Light Railways Act, 1896— Copy presented, of Order made by the Light 
Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of 
Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of 
Aberdeen, between Fraserburgh and St. Combs (Fraserburgh and St. 
Combs Light Railway Order, 1899) [by Command] ; to lie upon the Table 597 

Light Railways Act, 1896— Copy presented, of Order made by the Light 
Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of 
Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of 
Hampshire, between Cosham, Purbrook, Waterlooville, and Horndean 
(Poitsdown and Horndean Light Railway Order, 1898) [by Command] ; 
to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 598 

Light Railways Act, 1896 — Copy presented, of Order made by the Light 
Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of 
Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of 
Lincoln, from Blyton to Frodingham (Trent Valley Light Railway Order, 
1899) [by Command] ; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... 598 

Light Railways Act, 1896 — Copy presented, of Order made by the Light 
Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of 
Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of 
Cornwall, between Penzance, Newlyn, St. Just, and Land's End (Penzance, 
Newlyn, and West Cornwall Light Railway Order, 1899) [by Command] ; 
to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 598 

Light Railways Act, 1896 — Copy presented, of Order made by the Light 
Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of 
Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the county of 
Dorset, from Poole to County Gates (Poole and District Light Railway 
Order, 1899) [by Command] ; to lie upon the Table 598 

Light Railways Act, 1896 — Copy presented, of Order made by the Light 
Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of 
Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the county of 
Kent, in the borough of Chatham, and the urban district of Gillingham 
(Chatham and District Light Railways Order, 1899) [by Command] ; to 
lie upon the Table 598 

Light Railways Act, 1896— Copy presented, of Order made by the Light 
Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of 
Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of 
Ayr, between Girvan and Ayr (Glasgow and South Western Railway 
(Maidens and Dunure Light Railway) Order, 1899) [by Command] ; to lie 
upon the Table 599 

Trade Reports (Miscellaneous Series) — Copy presented, of Diplomatic 
and Consular Reports, Miscellaneous Series, No. 516 [by Command]; to 
lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 599 

Explosions (St. Helens)— Copy presented, of Report by Colonel A. Ford, 
C.B., Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Explosives, on the circumstances 
attending an explosion which occurred at the Kurtry Chemical Works 
of the United Alkali Company, Limited, at St. Helens, on 12th May, 
1899 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... 599 



Ociobei' 25.] 



TABLE OF CONTEXTS. 



QUESTION. 



XCUl 



Page 



Transvaal Affairs — Charges Against Mr. J. Chamberlain — Question, 
Mr. Swift MacNeill (Donegal, S.) ; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury 
(Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... 599> 



PUBLIC BUSINESS, 

Sittings of the House (Wednesday) — Ordered, That Government busi- 
ness be not interrupted this day at half -past five nor six o'clock, and may 
be entered upon at any hour though opposed. — (Mr, A. J, Balfour,) 

Second Session (Explanation) Bill — [Second Reading] — Order for Second 
Heading read. 

Motion made and Question proposed, " That the Bill be now read a 
second time." — {Mr, Attorney General,) 

Mr. Gibson Bowks (Lynn Regis) ... 

Question put and agreed to. 

Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow. 

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill— [Second Reading]— Order for 

Second Reading read. 

Motion made and Question proposed, " That the Bill be now read a 
second time." 



600^ 



Discussion : — 

Sir Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett 
(Sheffield, Ecclesall) ... 600 

Mr, Dalziel {Kirkcaldy 
Burghs) ... ... 604 

Majm' Rasch {Essex, S,E.) 613 

Mr, Davitt {Mayo, S.) ... 

Dr, Clark {Caifhiiess) 

Mr. Paulton {Durham, 

Bishop Auckland) 
Mr, Labouchere {Northamp- 

lOTvj ... ... ... 

Mr, Sydney Gedge ( Walsall) 638 

Sir William Harcourt {Mon- 
mouthshire, W,) 



614 
622 

623 

628 



644 



The Secretary of State fm- tlie Colonies 
(Mr. J, Chamberlain, Birming- 
ham, W,) 
Mr, Courtney {Cornwall, Bodmin) 
Mr, Atherley-Jones {Durham, N. W.) 
Sir John Lubbock {London Univer- 

Mr. Henry Broadhurst {Leicester) 
The First Lord of the Treasury 

{Mr. A, J. Balfour, Manchester, 

E) 
Mr. LkUon {Mayo, E.) ... 
Mr. William Redmond {Clare, E.) 
Mr. Swift MacNeill {Donegal, S.) 
Mr. Flavin {Kerry, N.) ... 



The House divided : — ^Ayes, 224 ; Noes, 28. (Division List No. 18.) 
Bill read a second time and committed for To-morrow. 



645- 
657 
662: 

668- 
671 



674 
67& 
684 
691 
694 



Treasury Bills Bill — [Second Reading] — Order for Second Reading read. 

Motion made and Question proposed, " That the Bill be now read a second 
time."*' — {Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.) 



xciv TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 25.] Pa^e 

Discussion : — 

Sir Will ia in Harcowrt (Moiir The Chancellor of the Exchequer {Sir 

rnouthshire, IF.) ... 698 M, Hicks Beach, Bristol, fF.) ... 709 

Question put, and agreed to. 

Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow. 

In pursuance of the Order of the House of the 18 th day of this instant 
October, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put. 

, Adjourned accordingly at twenty minutes before Nine of the clock. 



LORDS : THURSDAY, 26th OCTOBER 1899. 

Judicial Business — Ordered, That this House do meet on Thursday, the 16th 
day of November next, at Eleven o'clock, for the purpose of hearing and 
determining Appeals and matters connected therewith, pursuant to the 
provisions of the Appellate Jurisdiction Act, 1876 ; and that during such 
meeting of the House leave be given to the Appeal Committee to meet ... 713 

Address — The Queen's Answer to the Address of Tuesday, the 17th instant, 

reported ; and Address and Answer to be printed and published ... ... 713 



RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 

Trade Reports — I. Annual Series : No. 2,362. Trade of Chiengmai and 
District for year 1898. II. Miscellaneous Series : No. 516. Swiss Trade 
with Germany, France, and Great Britain ... ... ... ... ... 713 

Colonies (Annual) — No. 275. British Solomon Islands : Report for 1898-99. 

No. 276. Gibraltar: Report for 1898 713 

Miscellaneous, No. 1 — Correspondence respecting the Peace Conference held 

at the Hague in 1899 [in continuation of Russia, No. 1 (1899)] ... ... 713 

Explosives (Explosion at the Kurtz Chemical Works at St. Helens) — 
Report to the Secretary of State for the Home Department, by Colonel 
A. Ford, C.B., Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Explosives, on the circum- 
stances attending an explosion which occurred at the Kurtz Chemical 
Works of the United Alkali Company, Limited, at St. Helens, on the 12th 

i.lj.a y , i.O«/i/ ••• ••• ••• ••• .•« ... ••• ••• ..a iXO 

Agrarian Outracjes (Irklaxd) -Return for the quarter ended 30th Septem- 

OL/X « XO%7«7 ••• ■•■ ■•• «•• ••• ••« ••• ••• «•• fX * 

Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1<S87 (Eviction Notices) — Retimi of eviction 

notices filed during the quarter ended 30th September, 1899 714 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. xcv 

October 26.] Page 

Light Railways Act, 1896 — Orders made by Commissioners and modified 
and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising construction of light 
railways as follows : — (1) In the county of Aberdeen, between Fraserburg 
and St. Combs. (2) In the county of Cornwall, between Penzance, Newlyn, 
St. Just, and Land's End. (3) In the county of Dorset, from Poole to 
County Gates. (4) In the county of Essex, in and near to the borough of 
Southend-on-Sea. (5) In the County of Hampshire, betw^een Cosham, 
Purbrook, Waterlooville, and Horndean. (6) In the county of Kent, in 
the borough of Chatham and the urban district of Gillingham. (7) In the 
county of Lincoln, from Blyton to Frodingham. (8) In the county of 
Montgomery, between Welshpool and Llanfair Caereinion. (9) In the 
county of Ayr, between Girvan and Ayr. (10) In the county of Berks, 
from Wallingford to Benson in the county of Oxford, and near Didcot in 
the county of Berks ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 714 

Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table. 

Foreign Jurisdiction Act, 1890 — I. Order in Council, dated the 7th October, 
1899, discontinuing the operation of the Orders in Council regulating Her 
Majesty's Consular Jurisdiction in the Empire of Japan as from the 4th 

August, 1899. II. Order in Council, dated the 7th October, 1899, 

entitled "The Somaliland Order in Council, 1899." III. Order in 

Council, dated the 7th October, 1899, entitled "The East Africa Order 

in Council, 1899 " ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 714 

Merchant Shipping Act, 1894 — Order of Her Majesty in Council, dated the 
7th day of October, 1899, approving certain pilotage bye-laws made by 
the Cork Harbour Commissioners ... ... ... ... ... ... 715 



Superannuation — Treasury Minute, dated 21st September 1899, declaring 
that for the due and efficient discharge of the duties of the office of Legal 
Adviser in the Estates Duty Office of the Department of Inland Revenue, 
professional or other peculiar qualifications not ordinarily to be acquired 
in the public service are required ... ... ... ... ... ... 715 

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table. 

Universities of Oxford and Cambridge Act, 1877— (1) Statute made by 
the Governing Body of Brasenose College, Oxford, on the 15th March 

1899, altering Statutes III. and XVI. of the Statutes of that College 

(2) Statute made by the Governing Body of Pembroke College, Oxford, 
on the 3rd day of March 1899, amending Clause 9 of Statute II. and 

Clause 3 of Statute V-III. of the Statutes of that College (3) Statute 

made by the Governing Body of Worcester College, Oxford, at a meeting 
held on the 22nd of February 1899, and continued by adjournment on the 
8th March 1899, amending Statute III. — 10 of the Statutes of the College 715 

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 1.) 

Margate Pier and Harbour — Report and statement of accounts for year 
ended 5th April 1899. Delivered (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie 
on. t>iie j.aoie ... ... ... ... •.. ... ... ... ... /lo 



xcvi TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

Ociohe7'26,] 

Lands and Heritages (Scotland) — Return showing the valuation of lands 
and heritages throughout Scotland, according to the valuation rolls, for 
the years, in the areas, and under the headings specified below : — 



Page 



Heading. 



a) Agricultural lands 
and heritages 

b) Woodlands and 

sporting rentals 

c) Buildings... 



d) Railways and canals 

e) Other rateable pro- 

perty 

/) Property in valua- 
tion roll not 
rated 

g) Total 




County, parish, burgh, and police 
burgh 

(1) County, burgh, and police 

burgh 

(2) Parish ... 

(1) County, burgh, and police 

burgh 

(2) Parish ... 

County, parish, burgh, and police 

burgh 
(1) County, burgh, and police 

burgh 
(>j) xariSQ ... ... ... .»• 

(1) County, burgh, and police 

burgh 

(2) Parish ... 

County, parish, burgh, and police 
burgh 



Years. 



1896 and 1900 

1896 and 1900 

1900 

1896 and 1900 

1900 

1896 and 1900 

1896 and 1900 

1900 

1896 and 1900 

1900 

1896 and 1900 



For the purposes of this Return the heading " Agricultural Lands and 
Heritages " has the meaning assigned thereto in the Agricultural Rates, 
etc. (Scotland) Act, 1896 ; the heading " Buldings " includes houses (other 
than houses included under the heading Agricultural Land and Heritages), 
shops, warehouses, mills, and factories ; also such land as forms a 
pertinent of the houses and is rated in cumulo with them ; the heading 
" Railways and Canals " includes stations and depots ; the heading " Other 
Rateable Property " includes quarries, mines, ironworks, tramways, gas- 
works, waterworks, docks, wharves, harbours, and all other lands and 
heritages not properly coming under another heading; the expression 
" year," means the year ending at Whitsunday in the year specified ; and 
the expression " county " means a county exclusive of any royal, parlia- 
mentary, or police burghs, wholly or partially situate therein, and does 
not include a county of a city. Ordered to be laid before this House. — 
(The Lord Churchill (for the Lord Balfour).) ... 



Business of the House — Standing Orders No. XXXIX. and XLV. to be 
considered To-morrow, in order to their being suspended for that day*s 

ol l/ulxXc^» ••• «•• ••• ••« ••■ ••• ••• ••• •■• •■• 



715 



Second Session (Explanation) Bill — Brought from the Commons ; read 
1* ; to be printed ; and to be read 2* To-morrow. — (The Marquess of Salis- 
hury,) (No. 2.) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 716 



717 



Ilouse adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Five of the clock. 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. 



COMMONS: THURSDAY, 26th OCTOBER 1899. 

Queen's Speech— The Treaaurer of tho Household reported Her Majesty's 

Answer to the Address 717 



National Old Age Pensions— Petition from Stewarton, i 
upon the Table ■ 



favour; to lie 



RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 

SoPERANNUATlON.s— Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 21 st September 
1899, declaring that, for the duo and efficient discharge of tho duties of 
the office of Legal Adviser to the Estate Duty Office of the Department of 
Inland Revenue, professional or other pecuharqualificationsnot ord/narily 
to be acquired in the public sen-ico are requisite [by Act]; to lie upon 
theTable 717 

Sausbury Plain (Property Purchased) — Address for "Return of Pro- 
perty purchased by the War Office in Salisbury Plain, showing separately 
for each estate purchased at the time of purchase (1) the name and 
acreage of the estate ; (2) the name of the vendor ; (3) date of purchase 
and manner of purchase ; (4) gros^ rental ; (5) deductions from such 
cross rental, via. : {a) land tax, only so far as paid by the landlord ; 

(6) rates, only so far as p.%id by the landlord ; (c) taxes, only so far as 
paid by the landlord ; {d) tithe rent-charge, only so far as paid by the 
landlord j (e) quit rents; (/) fines and fees in respect of copyholds; 
(ff) any other deductions properlv to be made; (6) purchase money; 

(7) totals of each column."— (/I//-. th->Mi-i Biiyky) 717 

ElbCTIOKS (Scotland). — Return ordered, " of the Cost of the elections of 
County Councils, Town Councils, and Burgh Commissioners, and Parish 
Councils in Scotland, as first held simultaneously in 1898, in terms of the 
Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894, under the following headings :— 



County, 

Pulice 
ipedfvini 



of electors 

pnrish 

conneil re- 



Parishes 
Itnd parish 



Coats of 
eleelions 
charged 



Cost of 

elecliima 
cbar(;ed 
to County 
or Town 
Council 

Comrais- 



Number IN umber of 

of County 

electoral electoral 
divisioiiB idivLsions oi 
io (^auntyl bur»h or 
or ward? ( police 

(if any) burgh 
in Burgb wards in 
or PoHce which elee- 

Burgh. tiou was 
cont Sited. 



— (The Lord Adeoeate) 
VOL LXXVn. [Fourth Series.] 



xcviU TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 26.] Page 

QUESTIONS, 

Transvaal War — Transport of Troops — The "Zayathla" and the 
** ZiBENGHLA " — Questions, Mr. Bill (Leek, Staifordshire), General Russell 
(Cheltenhiam) and Sir E. Gourley (Sunderland) ; Answers, The First Lord 
of the Admiralty (Mr. G. J. Goschen, St. George's, Hanover Square) ... 719 

Employment of the Volunteers in Active Service — Questions, Sir 
Howard Vincent (Sheffield, Central) and Mr. Duncombe (Cumberland, 
Egremont) ; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wynd- 
nam, x^ o v er i ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• >•• ... ... ... i^j. 

Care of the Wounded — Question, Mr. Dillon (Mayo, E.) ; Answer, The 

Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) 722 

Bullets Used in the War — Questions, Mr. Dillon (Alayo, R) and Mr. 
Weir (Ross and Cromarty) ; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for 
War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) ... ... ... ... ... ... 723 

Uniforms of Special Colour — Question, Mr. Brookfield (Sussex, Rye); 

Answer, The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover)... 723 

The Reservists — Questions, Sir Howard Vincent (Sheffield, Central) and 
Major Rasch (Essex, S.E.) ; Answers, The Under Secretary of State for 
War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) and The Financial Secretary to the War 
Office (Mr. Powell-Williams, Birmingham, S.) 724 

Medical Rejections of Soldiers — Question, Sir Howard Vincent (Sheffield 
Central) ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, 

X/ vl V t^X !•*• ••• ••• ••• ••• •••- ••• ••• ••• ••• f £t%3 

Progress of the War — Capture of Hussars — Cavalry Establishment 
— Questions, Mr. Pirie (Aberdeen, N.) and Mr. Gretton (Derbyshire, S.) ; 
Answers, The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) 725 

The Captured Hussars — Answers, Mr. Dalziel (Kirkcaldy Burghs) and Sir 
Charles Dilke (Gloucester, Forest of Dean) ; Answers, The Under Secre- 
tary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) 726 

The Royal Patriotic Fund — Questions, Mr. Thomas Bay ley (Derbyshire, 
Chesterfield) and Mr. Kearley (Devonport) ; Answers, The Financial Sec- 
retary to the War Office (Mr. Powell- Williams, Birmingham, S.) 727 

Sunday Delivery of South African MAii^—Question, Mr. Henniker 
Heaton (Canterbury) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury 
(Mr. Hanbury, Preston) 728 

Parcels for Soldiers on Active Service— Question, Mr. Jeffreys (Hants. 
Basingstoke) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. 
Hanbury, Preston) 728 

Publication of Despatches — Question, Mr. Henry Broadhurst (Leicester). 

No answer was given .. . ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 729 

Incitement to Treason — Question, Mr. William Johnston (Belfast, S.); 

Answer, The Attorney General (Sir R. Webster, Isle of Wight) 729 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. xcix 

Odober 26.] Page 

Army Contracts— Question, Sir Fortescue Flannery Yorkshire, Shipley); 
Answer, The Financial Secretary to the War Ofl&ce (Mr. Powell-Williams, 
Birmingham, S.) ^ ..;, 729 

Coal for the Navy— Question, Mr. John Wilson (Falkirk) ; Answer, The 

Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Austqn Chamberlain, Worcestershire, E.) 729 

Thb Channel Islands Militia— Question, Sir Charles Dilke (Gloucester- 
shire, Forest of Dean) ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for War 
(Mr. Wyndham, Dover) 730 

Licensed Victuallers and the Army — Refusal to Serve Private 
SoLDiEBS — Question, Major Rasch (Essex, S.E.) ; Answer, The Under 
Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) 730 

Army Veterans— Question, Mr Flavin (Kerry, N.) ; Answer, The Financial 

Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Powell- Williams, Birmingham, S.) ... 731 

The Swazis — Question, Sir Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett (Sheffield, Ecclesall) ; 
Answer, The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. J. Chamberlain, 
(Birmingham, W.) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 731 

Delagoa Bay — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and Cromarty) ; Answer, The First 

Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.) 731 

British Trade in the Far East — Question, Mr. J. H. Roberts (Denbigh- 
shire, W.) ; Answer, The First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, 
Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 732 

The Loss of the ** Kowshing " — Questions, Mr. Provand (Glasgow, Black- 
friars) and Mr. Gibson Bowles (Lynn liegis) ; Answers, The First Lord of 
the Treasury (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, E.) ... ... ... ... 732 

Local Taxation — Intercepted Revenue — Questions, Mr. Gibson Bowles 
(Lynn Regis) and Mr. J. H. Lewis (Flint Boroughs) ; Answers, The 
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir M. Hicks Beach, Bristol, W.) ... ... 733 

Post Office Savings Bank — Question, Mr. Gibson Bowles (Lynn Regis) ; 

Answer, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir M. Hicks Beach, Bristol, W.) 734 

The Mercantile Marine and the Royal Naval Reserve — Question, 
Sir Charles Dilke (Gloucestershire, Forest of Dean) ; Answer, The Presi- 
dent of the Board of Trade (Mr. Ritchie, Croydon) ... ... ... 734 

Railway Bye-Laws — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and Cromarty) ; Answer, 

The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Ritchie, Croydon) ... ... 735 

Dbstitute Auens— Question, Mr. Lowles (Shoreditch, Haggerston) ; Answer, 

The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Ritchie, Croydon) 735 

Ludgate Hill Station— Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and Cromarty); Answer, 

The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Ritchie, Croydon) 736 

Swine Fever Regulations in Essex— Question, Major Rasch (Essex, S.E.) ; 
Answer, The President of the Board of Agriculture (Mr. Long, Liverpool, 
West Derby) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 736 

9 *- 



c TABLE OF CONTENTS. . 

'Octd)er 26.] Pagt 

Hydrophobia and Rabies — Question, Mr. Macdona (Southwark, Eotherhithe) ; 
Answer, The President of the Board of Agriculture (Mr. Long, Liverpool, 
west/ xyerov) ••• ••• •.. ... ... ... ... ••• .*• i oo 

Drinking Troughs for Horses — Question, Mr. Sinclair (Essex, Romford) ; 
Answer, The President of the Board of Agriculture (Mr. Long, Liver- 
pool, West Derby) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 737 

Poor Law Statistics — Question, Mr. Gibson Bowles (Lynn Regis) ; Answer, 
The President of the Local Government Board (Mr. Chaplin, Lincoln- 
shire, Sleaford) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 737 

Highland Deer Forests — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and Cromarty) ; Answer, 

The Lord Advocate (Mr. A. Graham Murray, Buteshire) 738 

New Scotch Fishery Cruiser — Question, Mr. Weir (Ross and Cromarty) ; 

The Lord Advocate (Mr. A. Graham Murray, Buteshire) ... ... ... 738 

Scotch Prison Administration — Question, Sir Charles Cameron (Gla^ow, 
Bridgeton) ; Answer, The Lord Advocate (Mr. A. Graham Murray, Rite- 

OXXXX vl ••« ••« ••■ ••• ••» ■•• ••• •■• ••• ••• m %^%r 

Land Tax Commissioners — Question, Sir Charles Dilke (Gloucestershire, 
Forest of Dean) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. 
Hanbury, Preston) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 739 

Re-Transmission of Telegrams — Question, Mr. Henniker Heaton (Canter- 
bury) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbuiy, 

^ XCOvv/lX I ••• •*• ••• •«• ••• ••• ■•• ••• ••• V Y^^ 

The Post Office and the " Dublin Daily Express "—Question, Mr. Dillon 
(Mayo, E.) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. 
Hanbury, Preston) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 740 

Telegraphic Charge Anomalies — Question, Mr. Henniker Heaton (Canter- 
bury) j Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanborj, 

JL X ^^S vv/ll I ■•• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• •■• ••• ••• m ^P JL 

Charges for Telegraphic Addressf^^— Question, Mr. Henniker Heaton 
(Canterbury) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. 
Hanbury, Preston) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 741 

Telephone Rates in London — Question, Mr. Provand (Glasgow, Black- 
friars) ; Answer, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury, 
X resuon) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... •.• i4m 

Irish Land Commission Procedure- Question, Mr. Plavin (Kerry, N.); 
Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, LeeoSy 

V^L/XluX (*'/ ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ••. m ^iA 

Cahirciveen Land Commission — Questions, Mr. T. J. Farrell (Kerry, R) and 
Mr. Flavin (Kerry, N.) ; Answers, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. 
G. \V. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... ... ... ... ... 742 

Ware's Estate — Question, Mr. Maurice Healy (Cork); Answer, The Chief 

Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) 743 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. ci 

Ocklber 26.] Page 

Irish Land Revaluations — Question, Mr. M*Cartan (Down, S.) ; Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... 74^ 

MuzzuNG Order in Ireland — Question, Mr. Power (Waterford, E.) ; Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... 745 

Innishowen Rural District Council — Question, Mr. T. B. Curran 
(Donegal, N.); Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. 
Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 745 

Irish Local Government Appointments — Question, Mr. Swift MacNeill 
(Donegal, S.); Answer, The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. 
Balfour, Leeds, Central) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 745 

Mayo County Court — Question, Mr. Swift MacNeill (Donegal, S.) ; Answer, 

The Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central) . . . 746 

Cork Lunatics — Question, Captain Donelan (Cork, E.) ; Answer, The Chief 

Secretary for Ireland (Mr. G. W. Balfour, Leeds, Central)... ... ... 74G 

Personal Explanation — Major Rasch and Dr. Clark : — 

Major Easch (Essex, S,E,) 747 

Dr, Clark {Caithness) 748 

PUBLIC BUSINESS, 

Sitting of the House (Friday)— Resolved, That this House do meet 

To-morrow morning at half-past Ten of the clock. — {Mr. Balfour) ... 748 

Second Session (Explanation) Bill— Considered in Committee, and 

reported, without Amendment ; Bill read the third time and passed . . . 748 

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill— Considered in Committee, and 

reported, without Amendment ; to be read the third time To-morrow . . . 748 

Treasury Bills Bill — Considered in Committee, and reported, without 

Amendment ; to be read the third time To-morrow 748 

In pursuance of the Order of the House of the 18th day of this instant 
October, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put. 

Adjourned accordingly, at ten minutes after Four of the Clock. 



LORDS, FRIDAY, 27th OCTOBER 1899. 

Judicial Business — Ordered, That for the puiposes of the judicial business of 
this House, Thursday the 16th day of November next be deemed the 
" first sitting day after the Recess " 749 

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC 

India (Sanitary Measures) — Report on Sanitary Measures in India in 

1897-98. Vol. XXXI 749 



di TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 27.] Page 

Wva^r Indies — Further correspondence relating to the hurricane on 10th-12th 
September 1898, and the relief of distress caused thereby (in continuation 
of [C. 9205], March 1899) 749 

Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table. 

Business of the House— Standing Orders No. XXXIX. and XLV. con- 
sidered (according to Order), and suspended for this day's sitting . . . 749 

PETITIONS. 

Statue to Oliver Cromwell — Petitions that this House will refuse permis- 
sion for the erection of a statue to Oliver Cromwell on public land ; of 
persons signing three petitions ; read, and ordered to lie on the Table ... 749 

Memorial Statues — Moved to resolve, " That it is inexpedient that memorial 
statues should be erected within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster 
without the sanction of Parliament." — (The. Earl of Hardwicke.) 



ussiON : — 






The Earl of Jremyss 


. 753 


The Lard Chancellor {The Earl of 


Viscaunt Sidmouth 


. 756 


HaUbary) ... ... ... 758 


The Earl of Hardwich' 


. 757 


VWount Sidmouth ... ... 759 


Lord Churchill ... 


. 757 


Tht Earl of Hardwicke 759 

Tlie Earl of JVemyss 760 



On Question, their Lordships divided : — Contents, 6 ; Not-contents, 4. 

Second Session (Explanation) Bill— Read 2« (according to order) ; 

Committee negatived ; then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been 
suspended) Bill read 3« and passed ... ... ... ... ..• ••• 760 

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill— Treasury Bills Bill— Brought 

from the Commons ; Keaal" ; then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having 
been suspended) Bills read 2'* (the Earl IFaldegrnve) ; Committee negatived ; 
Bills read 3®, and passed ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7M 

House adjourned during pleasure. 

House resumed. 

ROYAL ASSENT. 

Commission — The following Bills received the Royal Assent: — 

1. Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) : '1. Treasury Bills ; 3. Second 

Session (Explanation) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7M 



Quskn's Speech 761 

Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read. 



TABLE OF CONTENTS. ciii 

Oddber 27.] Po^ 

COMMONS, FRIDAY, 27th OCTOBER 1899. 

The House met at half-past Ten of the clock. 

PETITION, 

Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday — Petition from Camden Street, 

London, for alteration of law ; to lie upon the Table 762 

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC, 

Pkace Conference at The Hague (Miscellaneous, No. 1, 1899) — Copy pre- 
sented, of Correspondence respecting the Peace Conference hold at The 
Hague in 1899 (in continuation of Russia, No. 1, of Session 1899) [by 
Command] ; to lie upon the Table ... ... ... ... ... ... 762 

West Indies (Hurricane of September, 1898) — Copy presented, of Further 
Corespondence relating to the Hurricane on 10th and 12th September 
1898, and Relief of Distress caused thereby (in continuation of U. 9205, 
Session 1899) [by Command] ; to lie upon the Table 762 

East India (Sanitary Measures) — Copy presented, of Report on Sanitary 
Measures in India in 1897-8, Vol. XXXI. [by Command] ; to lie upon the 

TaWfl 7R9 

^ flVl./Xv ■■• •«* ••■ ••• ••• •«■ ••• ••* ••• ••• 9 \9 m§ 

Agrarian Outrages (Ireland) — Copy presented, of Return for the quarter 

ended 30th September, 1899 [by Command] ; to lie upon the Table ... 762 

Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1887 (Eviction Notices) — Copy presented, of 
Return of the number of Eviction Notices filed during the quarter ended 
30th September, 1899 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table 762 

Public Revenue (Interception) — Return presented, relative thereto 
[ordered 24th October ; Mr, Gibson Bowl€s] ; to lie upon the Table, and to 
De printed. [No. 12] 762 

Paruamentary Papers — Mr. Speaker laid upon the Table — List of the Bills, 
Reports, Estimates, and Accounts and Papers printed by order of the 
House, and of Papers presented by Command, Session 2, 1899, with a 
General Alphabetical Index thereto, 26th Parliament, Sixth Session, 63 
Vict., 17th October, 1899 to 27th October, 1899 ; to be printed. [No. 13] 763 



New Writ for the Borough of Exeter — In the room of the Hon. Sir 
Henry Stafford Northcote, Baronet (Chiltern Hundreds). — {Sir JViUiam 

^w %Jwwf C^wCv I ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• »•• ••• ••• ••• f V V 

QUESTIONS. 

British and Foreign Fleets— Question, Sir Charles Dilke (Gloucestershire, 
Forest of Dean) ; Answer, The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Goschen, 
St. George's, Hajiover Square) 763 

Transvaal War — Naval Contingent for Service in the Field — 
Question, Sir J. Colomb (Yarmouth) ; Answer, The First Lord of the 
Admiralty (Mr. Goschen, St. Greorge's, Hanover Square) 763 



civ TABLE OF CONTENTS. 

October 27.] Page 

German Officers with the Boer Army — Capture of Col. Schiel — 
Question, Mr. James Bailey (Newington, Walworth) ; Answer, The Under 
Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, Dover) 764 

Mauritius Garrison — Question, Sir Charles Dilke (Gloucestershire, Forest of 
Dean) ; Answer, The Under Secretary of State for War (Mr. Wyndham, 

■M^Kj V wX !■•» ••• ••« ••• ••• ••• ••• •■• ••• ••• I \J ^ 

PUBLIC BUSINESS, 
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill— [Third Reading]— Order 

for Third Reading read. 

Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Bill be now read the 
third time." 



Discussion : 

Sir Wilfrid Lawson (Currir 
herlandy CockermoiUh) ... 765 

Mr. Strauss {Cornwall, 
Camhorne) ... ... 768 

Dr, Clark (Caithness) ... 769 

The Sea'eiary of State for 
the Colonies {Mr, J, 
Chamberlain, Birming- 
ham, IV.) 770 



Mr, Bryn Roberts {Camarvonshirey 

Eifion) ... 
Mr, Gibson Bowles {Lynn Regis).., 
Mr, Luttrell {Devon, Tavistock) ... 
Sir Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett {Shef- 
field, Ecclesall) 

Mr, Maclvor {Liverpool, Kirkdale^ 
Mr, Lloyd-George {Carnarvon, etc,) 



772 
775 
779 

780 
781 
7B2 



1. Appropriation Act, 1889 (Session 2) ; 2. Treasury Bills Act, 
1889; 3. Second Session (Explanation) Act, 1899 

And afterwards Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech was delivered 
to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord High Chancellor (in pursu- 
ance of Her Majesty's Commands). 

Then a Commission for Proroguing the Parliament was read. 



784 



Question put and agreed to. 
Bill read the third time and passed. 
Treasury Bills Bill — Read a third time and passed 

Message from the Lords — That they have agreed to — 

1. Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill; 2. Treasury Bills Bill; 

3. Second Session (Explanation) Bill, without Amendment ... ... 784 

Royal Assent — Message to attend the Lords Commissioners. 
The House went ; and the Royal Assent was given to— 



784 



END OF CONTENTS OF VOLUME LXXVIl. 



cv 



BILLS DEALT WITH IN VOLUME LXXVII. 



Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill, 1899 (Session 2) Read P . 



;> 



?J 



^oiid Session (P^xplanation) 



Freasurv Bills 



»? 



?« 



?• 



' ) 



<? 



n 



1 J 



n 



»» 



?» 



j> 



Read 2" 



Committee 



Read .r ... 



. Oct. 24 
. Oct. 25 



Oct. 2G 



Oct. 27 



Read 1« 2« and 3« Oct. 27 



Read l** 



Oct. 24 



Read 2^ ... . 


.. Oct. 25 


Committee 


.. Oct. 2G 


Read 3" ... . 


. . Oct. 2G 


Read 1« ... . 


.. Oct. 2G 



Read 2« and 3« Oct. 27 



Read P ... . 


.. Oct. 24 


Read 2^ ... . 


. . Oct. 25 


Committee 


.. Oct. 2G 


Read 3'* ... . 


.. Oct. 27 



Read 1« 2« and 3« Oct. 27 



VOL. LXXVII. [Fourth Series.] 



h 



ERRATA. 

III his speech on October 17th, Mr. Drage desires the following corrections to be 
noted -.-Page IIG, line 13, should mnl '* Althongh the English language is 
generally uscmI, yet it is forbidden in jnihlic documents and proceedings. 
In public schools it ma}' not lie used after SUuidard III., and the regula- 
tions are such, etc." 

Page 117, line 37, alter '^ 7,000 " to " 13,000." 

Page 117, line 40, aUn- " 13,000" to "38,500." 



THE 



PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 

{AUTHORISED EDITION) 

IN THE 

SIXTH SESSION of the TIFENTYSIXTH PARLIAMENT of the 
UxMTED Kingdom of GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND. api»ointkd 

TO MEET THE 17tH OCTOBER 1899, IN THE 63RD YeAR OF THE ReKIN OF 

HER MAJESTY QUEEN VICTORIA. 



FIRST VOLUME OF SESSION, OCTOBER 1899. 



HOUSE OF LORDS. 
Tuesfh!/, 17th Oefoher 1899. 



^ 



t 



3 



I 
I 



t 



THE SIXTH SESSION of the 
FOURTEENTH PARLIAMENT of 
Her Majesty the Queen, and the Twenty- 
sixth Parliament of the United Kingdom 
of Great Britain and Ireland, was opened 
by Commission at Two of the Clock. 

The Lords Commissioners were : — The 
Lord Chancellor (the Earl of Hals- 
bury), the Earl of Pembroke (Lord! 
Steward of the Household), the Duke of 
Marlborough (Paymaster-General), the 
Earl of Coventry (Master of the 
Buckhounds), and Lord Balfour of 
Burleigh (Secretary for Scotland). 

The Commons being at the Bar with 
their Speaker, the Lord Chancellor 
delivered Her Majesty's Speech to both 
Houses of Parliament as follows : — 



THE QUEEN'S SPEECH. 
Mij IjOrds and Gentlemen, 



c« 



" Within a very brief period after the 
recent prorogation, I am compelled by 
events deeply affecting the interests of 
my Empire to recur to your ad\ice and 
aid. The state of affairs in South Africa 
has made it expedient that my Govern- 
ment should be enabled to strengthen the 

VOL. LXXVII. [Fourth Series.] 



military forces of this country by callin^; 
out the Reserve. For this purpose the 
provisions of the law render it necessary 
that Parliament should be called to":ether. 

" Except for the difficulties that have 
been caused by the action of the South 
African Republic, the condition ot the 
world continues to be peaceful. 

" Genthnnen of (he Honsf nf ('innn«m.<, 
" Measures will be laid ])efore vuu f.»r- 

« 

the purpose of providing for the expendi- 
ture which has been or may be caused hy 
events in South Africa. The Estimates 
for the ensuing year will be submitted t ) 
you in due course. 

" My Lords and Gentlemen, 

" There are many subjects of domestic 
interest to which your attention will he 
invited at a later period, when the ortli- 
nary season for the labours of a Parlij;- 
mentary Session has been reached. For 
the present I have invited your attendance 
in order to ask you to deal with an excep- 
tional exigency, and I pray that, in per- 
forming the duties which claim yor.r 
attention, you may have the guidaix-' 
and blessing of Almighty Go^i.'' 

Then the Commons withdrew. 

House adjourned during pleasure. 
A 



.3 AddreiiS in Ansiver fn 

House resumed. 



{LORDS} 



tlie QueerCs SpeecJ^ 



ROLL OF THE LORDS. 

Norroy King of Arms attending, de- 
livered at the Table (in the usual manner) 
a List of the Lords Temporal in the Sixth 
Session of the Twenty-sixth Parliament 
of the United Kingdom : The same was 
ordered to lie on the Table. 

SELECT VESTRIES. 
Bill, pro forma, read 1". 



summoned at this period of the year is 
also a sign that there is a position of some 
gravity for the consideration of the 
country, and I think the brevity of the 
gracious Speech is more than counter- 
balanced by the gravity of the 
matter which it contains. What 
is the state of affairs in South 
Africa to which reference is made f 
It is war — war between the Transvaal 
Republic and the Orange Free State and 
the Empire of Great Britain. That is a 
state of things which has been brought 
about not by the action of Her Majestj^'s 
Government, but by the deliberate action, 
at the last moment, of the Gk)vemments 
of the Transvaal and the Orange Free 
State. I had hoped that it would have 
been possible for me, when I should have 
the honour of addressing your Lordships, 
The LORD CHANCELLOR delivered ' to have said that there was still some 
the Report of Her Majesty's \ faint chance of peace being preserved 



OnDER OF THE DAY. 



ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO HER 
MAJESTY'S MOST (GRACIOUS SPEECH. 



(jRACious Speech from the Throne. 

*The marquess of GRANBY : My 
Lords, in rising to move that an himible 
Address be presented by youi* Lordships 
in reply to the gracious Speech from the 
Throne, I would venture to remind your 
Lordships that there is one custom which 
always obtains in this House, whether 
these benches ])e occupied by those who 



between these countries, and that it was 
within the bounds of possibility that the 
dread arbitrament of war would be 
averted. But that was not to l>e, and 
war has been forced upon us not by any 
action of this country, but by that of 
others. It is perfectly well known to 
your Lordships that these difficulties in 
South Africa, which have culminated in 
the present condition of affairs, have been 
support the present Government or by | accumulating for years past. They are 
noble Lords who sit on the other side, | not the mere accidents of a day. Ever 
and it is that you invariably extend your since the Transvaal had self-government 
kind indulgence to anyone placed in the restored to it by England in 1881, the 
position which I occupy at this moment. I state and condition of British subjects in 



hope you will continue that indulgence to 
me. i would point out to your Lordships 
that the gracious Speech which you have 



that country havel>een steadily going from 
l>ad to woi'se. We cannot help feeling 
that the grip of the Boer administration 



just heard road is the last Sp(J3ch from . has been very steadily tightening on the 
the Throne that will be made dftring the i throat of the Uitlander population in the 
present century. Usually the Speech Transvaal. It would not bo proper for 
from the Throne touches upon a great : me to attempt to go deeply into the 
variety of subjects, and extends over a ' causes which have leil up to the present 
large field of foreign and domestic affairs, condition of affairs in the Transvaal, nor 
])Ut in the present case it deals practically \ shall I weary your Lordships by attempt- 
with only one subject, which is contained | ing to recapitulate at any length the 
in the following paragi'aph : , grievances under which it has been proved 

-The state of affairs in South Africa has I ^he Uitlander population and the British 
made it expe<lieiit that my (Tcvernment should subjects m the Transvaal labour. But 
he enabled to btrenj-then the military forces of I must venture, verv brieflv, to allude to 
tiiiH country by calling out the Keserve." i ^^^^Q ^^j. ^^^.^^ ,^f ^he disalnlities under which 

That is, in itself, a very momentous state- the Uitlander population suffer. Your 
ment, and I venture to think that it is Lordchips are perfectlv well aware that 
m.iny years since the gracious Speech the Uitlander population in the Trans- 
froni^ the Throne has contained matter of , viiiil, amongst whom are a large numlier 
more vital and serious import to your ' of Her Majesty's subjects, are at this 
Lordships and to the country at large, i moment not permitted to have a vote. 
The mere fact that Parliameiit has been ' The education of their childi-en is only 



Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} 



the Queen^s Speech, 



allowed under restrictive conditions 
which make it almost impossible 
for them to be educated at all. 
They are not allowed to bear arms, 
they are taxed to an enormous and 
disproportionate extent, and I am afraid 
we must say they are bullied and per- 
secuted by the Boer police. Although, 
by their exertions, they supply a very 
large amount of the annual revenue of 
the Transvaal, the Uitlanders are denied 
any direct share in the management and 
administration of the country, and I do 
not think yoiu* Lordships will consider 
that to be a condition of affairs which 
can be allowed to continue. Were such a 
state of things to exist in any country 
with which England had no direct con 
nection, I almost think vour Lordships 
would consider it to be intolerable ; but it 
is all the more so when you remember 
that these grievances exist in a territory 
to which self-government was only re- 
stored by this country in 1881 under 
conditions the most important of which 
was that there should be equal burgher 
rights as between British subjects and 
the Boers, which, after all, means that 
there should be equal rights between all 
white men in the Transvaal. For many 
months past — I may say for years past — 
negotiations have been going on between 
the British Government and the Govern- 
ment of the Transvaal with the object of 
placing the status of the Uitlander popula- 
tion upon a more satisfactory footing, and of 
ameliorating, by all peaceful means, their 
condition. I regret, my Lords, that these 
negotiations have been unsuccessful. It 
is not for me to attempt to give any 
reasons for that failure, but I firmly be- 
lieve that all possible means have boen 
taken by Her Majesty's Government to 
bring about a peaceful issue of these numer- 
ous negotiations. Two years ago one of 
the ablest of Englishmen — Sir Alfred 
Milner — was sent out to South Africa as 
High Commissioner, and he has fully 
considered, and thoroughly inqnired 
into, every question that has been brought 
before him with regard to the wrongs of 
the Uitlanders in the Transvaal. After 
two years of anxious invesugation, of 
anxious thought, and of an>ious care on 
his part, what is his verdict i In his 
own words, he says : ".The case 
for intervention is overwhelming." 
Under these circumstances Her Majesty's 
Government, on the receipt of the com 
munication in which that .sentence was 



included, went still further, and a Con- 
ference took place between the High 
Commissioner and the President of the 
Transvaal Republic. Your Lordships will 
deeply regret that all the negotiations 
which took place at that Conference proved 
barren and useless. Every attempt on 
the part of Sir Alfred Milner to get the 
President of the Republic to agree to 
effect reforms — chiefly franchise reforms 
— was either met by a stolid refusal, or 
was clogged by such conditions as to 
absolutely stultify the granting of the 
proposed reforms. One may fairly say 
that the matter ended there, for although 
since then Her Majesty's Government, in 
the interests of peace, have gone as far 
as I believe any Government in any 
country have ever gone to promote peace, 
it has been impossible for them to go 
further. In fact, any other steps were 
rendered impossible by the ultimatum 
which the Boer Government sent to this 
country within the last ten days. The 
terms of that ultimatum were of such a 
nature that no Government with one 
atom of self-respect, or one grain of in- 
terest in the welfare of those over whom 
it was placed, either here or abroad, could 
by any possibility have accepted. It is 
difficult to say whether the ultimatum is 
characterised more by audacity or by in- 
sanity. I think every one will admit that 
Her Majesty's Government have done all 
they possibly could to secure a peaceful 
issue in the present crisis. I have heard 
it suggested outside that there has not 
been that keen desire on the part of the 
Government to bring this matter to a 
peaceful issue that there might have been ; 
but I do not believe this, and I am certain 
your Lordships will agree with me. It 
must not be forgotten that the desire for 
peace may be pushed too far ; if it is 
pressed beyond a certain point the word 
peace becomes a synonym for weakness ; 
and I would remind your Lordships that 
a noble Lord, who was a distinguished 
Member of this House, has written that 
there was such a thing as " a peace that 
was full of wrongs and shames." I am 
coafident your Lordships wouhl not 
wish peace to be obtained on such 
terms as those. I ha\'e said nothing 
yet about the Orange Free State and 
their action in the matter. I confess 
franklv that that Government have taken 
up what I should have thought was an 
incredible line of action. As far as I am 
aware, we have been at peace with the 

A 2 



Address in Answer to 



(LORDS} 



the Queen's Speech. 



K- 



Orange Free St<ate. We have had no 
quan-el with them, but as they have 
chosen to take a certain line, they must 
take the consequences. But it is im- 
possible not to have some faint suspicion 
that the action of the Orange Free State 
in joining hands with the Transvaal at 
such a juncture as the present had its 
origin in some deeper scheme which has 
lurked in the minds of these two Govern- 
ments for some time past; in some 
scheme — not aided, I trust, by Dutch 
Afrikanders outside the Republics — to 
weaken seriously by joint movement the 
power of Great Britain in South Africa. 
I believe that upon one point there is an 
absolute consensus of opinion amongst 
noble Lords on both sides of this House, 
and in the country at large — that there 
must be no juggling with the fact that 
there can only be one paramount Power 
in South Africa, and that that Power must 
be Great Britain. It is utterly impossi- 
ble to conceive any other Power being 
supreme there. Were our interests to be 
seriously weakened in South Africa, it 
would impenl our welfare in many other 
parts of the world. Impelled by no de- 
sire for unnecessary and unjustifiable con- 
quests, but by a determination to restore 
liliei'ty to British .sul)jects in the Trans- 
vti;il, the British Government have taken 
the only course possible to effect this object 
and to maintain supreme the safety, 
honour, and welfare of Her Majesty's sub- 
jects. I thank your Lordships for the 
kind manner in which you have listened 
to me, and I now bcic to move : 

'' That an humble Address be presented 
to Her Majesty in reply to the Gracious 
Speech from the Throne." 

♦Loud BARNARD: My Lords, I rise 
to second the motion which has been 
made by the noble Marquess, and in doing 
so I feel confident that I may also appeal 
to your Lordships to grant me that indul- 
gence which I know, from my experience 
of this House, is always granted to those 
who stand in the position which I occupy 
to-day. The occasion on which we are 
met together is so exceptional that my 
task is, perhaps, more difficult than that 
which usually falls to the lot of the 
seconder of the Address. There is but 
one subject, as the noble Marquess has 
observed, which can be brought under the 
consideration of your Lordships, and that 
is the warlike condition of affairs in 
>South Africa. I am sorry for many 

The Marquess of Granhy. 



reasons, but I am glad that it should be 
so under present circumstances, that I have 
no personal connection of any kind what- 
ever with Sout'i Africa. I regret that I have 
never been there, and any remarks I make 
may therefore be treated as only on a par 
with those of " the man in the street." 
But I believe my opinion is shared by a 
great number of British subjects placed 
similarly to myself. There is a very 
general consensus of opinion that the 
state of affairs in South Africa has- 
reached such an intolerable pitch that the 
course which Her Majesty's Government 
have thought fit to advise Her Majesty to- 
take is justified to the fullest possible 
extent. The situation with which we are- 
faced arises from the fact that there are 
in South Africa two white races holding^ 
different and widely divergent opinions 
on many matters. It is our duty to try 
and reconcile those divergencies, and, if 
possible, amalgamate the two races. That 
is one of the duties of empire with which 
the British nation is well qualified to 
deal. In considering this subject I can- 
not help remembering that we and all the 
people of this nation are practically the 
product of the amalgamation of two great 
races — the Normans and the English — 
and when we come to consider the 
extraordinary differences which existed 
from the latter part of the eleventh to 
the beginning of the twelfth century, 
and how absolutely those differences have 
disappeared, and that the result has been 
the creation of the greatest Empire the 
world has ever seen, I think we need not 
fear of being able to effect a similar 
amalgamation in South Africa in due 
course. I have the honour to reside in 
the county of Durham, the people of 
which are perhaps as intelligent and 
industrious as any class of Englishmen^ 
and form an important part of the con- 
stituents of this Empire ; and I have been 
constantly impressed by their very great 
keenness in maintaining and improving' 
their political rights. I am confident 
that when it is once brought home to 
them, and to the country generally, as it 
must be by those whose duty it is to lay 
before them the views of the Govern- 
ment, that there exists in South Africa a 
race of men — industrious working men 
like themselves — to whom all political 
rights are denied, their sympathy will co 
out to those people, and the whde 
Biitish nation will rise like one man to 
support the claim of the Uitlanders to 



Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} 



th£ Queen's Spe^-h. 



10 



X)olitical liberty. I am bound to confess 
that there are always two sides to every 
question. It is quite possible that some 
■of those who are now opposing us may 
have some belief that they are defending 
their rights under treaties and conven- 
tions, but even assuming that they do 
-consider they have such rights, they 
<»nnot find a single apologist in this 
country who can believe that their 
•Government is a just and honest one. 
It has been the pride of this country, the 
ohief corner-stone, one might say, of the 
British Empire, that representation and 
taxation go hand in hand. If I read 
accurately, the very reverse is the case in 
the Transvaal Republic, for the taxes are 
placed on those who have no political 
power whatever. This, my Lords, in 
itself, if the people concerned were not, 
many of them, our fellow-subjects, would 
be a serious grievance, and one which 
should call for the interference of the 
Eritish nation, I should like to take 
this opportunity of expressing my 
strong concurrence with the remarks 
which have fallen from the noble Marquess 
who moved the Address as to the desire 
of this nation to promote peace. I, for 
one, realise what horrible injury and 
suffering will be caused to both parties by 
war, but at the same time I admit that a 
state of affairs has been reached which 
nothing but war can remedy. There are, 
I am sorry to say, many people in this 
world who, unfortunately, are not to be 
<x)nvinced that there are two sides to a 
question unless the other side hold their 
own views. That is the position of 
President Kruger and his associates. 
They have, as your Lordships are aware, 
and as this country is aware, agreed to 
grant certain refonns providing certain 
concessions, which they consider right, 
are made, including the renunciation of 
the suzerainty of this country, and 
because we declined to make those con- 
oessions they say they must be in the 
right and we are in the wrong. That 
remains to be seen. Before I sit down I 
should like to allude to the calling out of 
the Reserves, and to say that in my 
opinion the efhcacy and efl&ciency with 
which that process has been effected will 
^o far to strengthen and establish the 
British power, and in strengthening and 
•establishing the British power I feel that 
we are promoting the cause of civilisation 
throughout the world, for I believe I am 
correct in saying that the one great 



reason why the Dutch population of 
South Africa have such a rooted objection 
to British rule is that they-are not allowed 
to treat the black races as slaves and as tools 
and implements for getting money. They 
know that the principle adopted by this 
nation of giving as far as possible equal 
rights to all men, whatever be their 
colour, must act injuriously to them, and 
they are determined to use every means 
in their power to defeat us. I thank your 
Lordships for listening so attentively to 
the few remarks I have made, and I now 
beg to second the Address. 

The earl of KIMBERLEY : My 
Lords, I am sure I shall be supported 
by everyone in this House when I say 
that we have all heard with much 
pleasure the two speeches which have 
been delivered this evening by the 
Mover and Seconder of the Address ; 
but I may venture to add that there 
are many in this House who will feel a 
special interest in the first appearance 
in this House as a speaker of the noble 
Marquess who moved the Address. He 
is the son of the noble Duke whom I 
see opposite to me, one of the oldest and 
most respected members of this House. 
I venture to congratulate him upon the 
appearance of his son on this occasion. I 
also had great pleasure in hearing the 
remarks made by my noble friend Lord 
Barnard, and I hope that he and the 
Marquess of Granby will be heard again in 
your Lordships' House. My Lords, as 
was said by the Mover of the Address, 
we are summoned together on this occa- 
sion for no common reasons, and we are 
summoned at that which is always a great 
and solemn moment in the history of a 
nation — namely, when it finds itself 
engaged in a serious war. With us it is 
the more solemn as we are in some 
respects engaged in what partakes of the 
character of a civil war. I say in some 
respects, because this is a war in which 
the feelings and the interests of a con- 
siderable number of our fellow-subjects, 
not of our own race, are deeply engaged. 
This is, no doubt, one of the most serious 
and one of the most anxious elements of 
the conflict. I will come at once to the 
main question raised in the Speech from 
the Throne, and that is the necessity of 
calling out the Reserves and of asking 
Parliament for the necessary supply for 
the war, which I fear I must say is now 
proceeding. Upon that point 1 wish, for 



11 Address in Answer to {LORDS} tlie Qneen^s Speech, 12 

my part, to speak with no doubtful voice, , to the ultimate result, and that 
and I feel sure that that will be the voice ; we may tru.st our soldiers to do their 
of everyone . whom I now address — duty now as well as in the times past and 
namely, that, whatever may be our add to the credit which this country has 
opinion as to the mode in which the gained in so many conquests. I have 



negotiations have been conducted or as to 
the past history of this melancholy ques- 



now said all that I need say upon that 
most essential part of the subject ; but I 



tion, we are as ready as the supporters ; should not bo discharging my duty if I 
of the Government on the other , did not say that there are points in the 
side of the House to give all history of the negotiations which have 
our support to whatever measures are led us to this result which we cannot 



necessary to vindicate the honour and 
support the interests of this country. 
There can be, to my mind, no question 
upon this. If ever there could have 
been a question it has been solved, against 
the action of ourselves, by the extra- 
ordinary ultimatum presented to this 



view with any amount of satisfaction. It 
is, of course, difficult upon an occasion of 
this kind, and indeed I do not think that 
it would be advisable, to enter upon any 
detailed criticism of the negotiations ; but 
I think we shoukl be misunderstood, and 
our attitude misconstrued, if I did not, 



country by the Government of the South . to a small extent, point out where we 



African Republic, and, I grieve to say, 
supported by the Government of the 
Orange Free State. My Lords, such an 



think these negotiations have not been 
conducted in a prudf nt and certainly not 
in a successful manner. In the first 



ultimatum could not possibly meet with place, we have witnessed what I suppose 
any response but that which has been . is an introduction of that which is 
made by Her Majtsty's Government, i generally termed "the new diplomacy." 
No nation could receive such an ulti i I am a very old-fashioned person indeed, 
matum as that, even from the most j particularly as regards diplomatic matters, 
powerful nation in the world, without at I and I quite fail to understand the advan> 
once replying to it in a manner which tages of this new mode of conducting 
could leave no doubt that it was prepared negotiations which are fraught with 
to defend the territories which were i danger and difficulty. What is to be said 
attacked, and show that its inte- > for the manner of conducting a negotia- 
rests would be duly protected in the tion which is practically coram populo ? I 
future. There is another subject that am aware that in this democratic age it is 
was touched upon by the noble Lord who j more necessary than formerly to take the 
seconded the Address, which, I am happy nation into your confidence, but it is also 
to say, I think we may view with unmixed j necessary that we should not depart from 
satisfaction, and that is the way in which ■ the sound principle that when a nation 
the Reserves have responded to the call has appointed men to conduct its affitirs 
made upon them. This is a matter for they should not endanger difficult nego- 
congratulation on the part of everyone j tiations by premature disclosures and 
who has the interests of the country at . constant and unwise public reference to 
heart ; because it is upon the Reserves j what is going on. It has been the custom 
and the system of maintaining Reserves ; always in times past, in making announce- 
that we nuist mainly depend when an ments in Parliament when questions have 
emergency of this kind arises. There- been asked as to perilous negotiations^ to 
fore it is to me a matter of greatest state that, however much the Gk>vem- 
pleasure to see how patriotically and how j ment would be glad to place before the 
faithfully the men of the Reserves are ; country the position of affairs, the inte- 
responding. This must, I think, strength- rests of the coiuitry demanded silence, 
en our belief tliat in the main our mili- These negotiations have been conducted 
tary system, though it has not without in a wholly different manner. In the first 
reason been severely criticised, is at last place, nothing could be more unfortunate 
placed on a firm and solid basis. I have - -I would almost say disastrous — than 
no doubt that your Lordships' strongest the publication of that famous telegram of 
sympathies and good wishes are going April 5 from Sir Alfred Milner. I am 
forth with the men whom we are sending not disposed to find fault with Sir Alfred 
to South Africii to fight the battle of Milner. He was perfectly justified, nay, 
their country. Our thoughts will be with more, it was his duty to inform his chief 
them. I have a confident opinion as unresersedly of his views with regard to 

The Earl of Kimherley. 



13 Address in Jn.fwer to {17 October 1899} the QueeiCs Speech. 14 

the state of affairs in South Africa ; : a fine-drawn arginnent the word suzc- 
but to my mind only one course could be ! rainty may be preserved, but if it be so 
taken by a responsi])le Minister in the the general scope of the statements made 
then state of the negotiations, and that in this House by Lord Derby, the then 
was to treat that despatch for the time as i responsible Minister, and the whole course 
confidential, and not to publish it, espe- of the affair, must have led, it seems to 
cially seeing that it contained expressions me, the Boer Government to suppose that 
— I am not blaming Sir Alfred ^lilner— in point of fact the word suzeraiuty, and 



especially with regard to the loyal popu- 
lation of South Africa, calculated to do 



what might lie under it, were abandoned, 
except so far as by the conditions of the 



the greatest possible harm. That is the , Treaty of 1884 they were confirmed. It 
first criticism I think it worth while to j was not necessary, it appears to me -it 
make. The next point is that a great was highly impolitic — to brandish the 
portion of these negotiations has turned | word suzerainty in the face of the Boers. 
upon the reassertion, shall I call it, of the I It was sure to provoke irritation and 



claim to suzerainty over the Transvaal 
State. I am as much respon8i})le as any 
man for the introduction of that term 
suzerainty, but I am also responsible for 
the interpretation, which will be found in 
the Blue Book, which I gave to it, and 
which I still hold. The only interpreta- 
tion I ever attached to it was that it was 
thought by us — T think wrongly — to be a 
convenient mode of expressing generally 
that certain stipulations existed in the 
Convention which limited the sovereignty 
of the Transvaal State, and that to the 
extent of those limitations contained in 
this particular provision of the Con- 
vention of 1881 there was what con- 
stituted what might be called generally a 
suzerainty. But in the present case it 
seems to me that the word has been used 
in order to set forth some vague and un 



suspicion, and, in my opinion, it was need- 
less. Why do I say needless ? Because 
it seemed to me that there was a safe and 
unassailable foundation for our claim to 
interfere on behalf of British subjects, and 
that was the right which every State 
possesses to protect its subjects in another 
State from wrong. That wivs a right 
which we possessed in an unusual degree 
in South Africa owing to the peculiar posi- 
tion of the country — a country where there 
were two races side by side, both of them 
determined in their opinions, with a 
history of their own, and jealous of their 
independence. Perhaps independence is 
not the right word to use. I mean, 
rather, jealous of the equality of their 
rights. I agree with Her Majesty's 
Government that it was impossible that 
such a state of things could be left long to 



defined claim, and the result has ])een to i continue- -a state of things which caused 
my. mind a fertile cause of the unfortu- such unrest throughout the dominions of 
nate suspicion which the Transvaal the Queen in South Africa as to be a 
Government has fallen into throughout as serious danger ; but I say there was no 
to our intentions. I believe the inten- ; reason whatever for bringing forward the 
tions of Her Majesty's Government were I word suzerainty. The case should have 
to obtain a peaceful settlement of the rested on the general right of every 
question, but if you wish to obtain a country, especially a country placed as we 
peaceful settlement from a people natu- are, to see that no such disabilities were 



rally suspicious, and, perhaps, not with 
out some cause when you remember that 



inflicted on their fellow-countrymen. 
That is what I have to say as to the in- 



most unhappy, nay, criminal, Raid made I troduction of the word suzerainty, and I 
by those who accompanied Dr. Jameson — i think it is one of the most unfortunate 
I say that when you have to deal with a ' circumstances in the negotiations. Be- 
people naturally suspicious of some attack ' sides that, I deprecate many of the 
upon their independence, you ought care- speeches made by the negotiator from 



time to 



fully, in your negotiations, to avoid any- 
thing that might have the appearance of j admirable, forcible, and incisive 
confirming those suspicions. I do not — but incisive speaking in public 
think it was unnatural that suspicion 
should be aroused by the reassertion of 
the suzerainty. I am not going to trouble 
your Lordships with an academical dis- 
cussion as to the precise interpretation of 
the two Conventions. I grant you that by 



time — speeches made by an 

speaker 
is con- 
trary to every principle upon which 
negotiations should be conducted. I 
should be surprised indeed if I ever heard 
the no])le Marquess conducting negotia- 
tions with a foreign country and, during 
the negotiations, making incisive speeches. 



15 Address in Answer to | LORDS) the Qtieen's Sjfcech. 16 

h may frocnuMitly happen — and at times ever much we may deplore the result, 
it may hi) unavoidable — that it may be however much we on our side* may, as 
M«;cessiuy in negotiations to use strong we do, divest ourselves entirely* of all 
i.mguago to the negotiator on the other responsibility in regard to it, we, with, I 
bide, but if such language were held ])elieve, the great mass of the people of 
in public to a proud and inde- the country, will ])e one and all with the 
pondent nation it would lead to war. \ Government in carrying out this war 
Negotiators know well enough that those vigorously and, I trust, to a speedy and 
negotiations, so long as there is a hope of prosperous end. 
peace, are held to be confidential and 

carefullv ke[)t back from the public view. ' The PRIME MINISTER AM) SECRE- 
I5ut in"^ this case, in speech after speech, TARY OF STATE for FOREIGN 
words were used, some concerning the AFFAIRS (The Marquess of Salis- 
President of the Transvaal Republic him- buuy) : My Lords, I concur with the 
self, the very incisiveness of which, the \ noble Earl opposite in mentioning, as he 
eloquence with which they were spoken, has done, though I may not be able to do 
tiie manncii* in which they were received so in such graceful language, the satisi^c- 
]»y the admirers of the Minister, con- | tion which we feel in welcoming amongst 
duced to make the negotiations less likely those who take part in the debates of this 
to succeed. I am sure I am speaking to House the eldest son and heir of a Minister 
many men conversant with business and who is still present with us, and who is 
diplomacy who will agree with me when tied to us by recollections of many a long 
I siiy that there is only one maxim to be political conflict, iii which, whatever side 
observed in ihe conduct of , negotiations i he took, he always left us with an in- 
-namely, that everything you do and ^creasing admiration of his charm of 
everything you say must be su])ordinate temper and manner. I am very glad to 



to the one end you have in view if your 
negotiations are to have a peaceful solu- 
tion. I admit there comes a time — there 



recognise the ability which my noble 
friend Lord Gran])y has displayed ; but, 
while coinciding with the noble Earl in 



certiiinly was a time in the difficult nego- ' hoping that it may not be the last exhibi- 

tiations, which I need only allude to, with ! tion of his powers, I am forced with 

a great Power who is a neighl>our of ours — , sadness to confess that year after year we 

when the (xovernment are perfectly right have expressed that hope at this table 

in speaking out plainly and decisively hardly ever with the result that our 

to the country and appealing to them, wishes have been confirmed. The speech 

Rut that can only be at the close of nego- of Lord Barnard — careful, clear, philoso- 

tiations, when they have arrived at phical -we have listened to with great 

a point when either there must be pleasure. I will only remind your 

an agreement or you have to re- Lordships that he is to us the 

sort to the alternative of an open representative of one long distinguished 

(|uarrel. I might, but I do not think it in diplomacy and politics — the late Duke 

would be convenient or wise at this time, of Cleveland. The first pait of the speech 

go into details on this matter and of the noble Karl opposite filled me with 

trace out the course of the negotiations despair, l)ecause I felt that I had to speak 

from the beginning to the end. I prefer after him as his opponent, and I found 

not to do that. I have merely indicated that on every subject he said exactly 

generally the ol)jection which I feel to what I would have wished to say. It was 

the mode in which many parts of the quite a relief when he came to deal vrith 

negotiations have been conducted, but I and attack modern diplomacy, because I 

cannot conclude this part of my remarks felt that there at least was something on 

without adding one word which is not which I might join issue with him. I need 

intended in the least degree, though it not reiterate the observations he has 

might appear to be so, as a kind of side- made. The Boer Government have been 

blow to some other Minister. 1 mean pleased to dispense with any explanation 

that I acknowledge, and fully acknow- on our part of the cause or justification of 

ledge, the calnniess and moderation of the war. They have done that which no 

the tone in which the last, and perhaps- provocation on our ])art could have justi- 

the most important, communication of tied, even if we had displayed any such 

the Government was conducted. I con- quality. They have done that which the 

dude, as I began, by saying that, how- strongest nation has never in its strength 

Thf Earl of Kimherlcy. 



17 Address in Anmver fit {17 October 1899} tlie Qaeev!s Speerh. 18 

done to any opponent whom it chal- Fox. Now as to the modern diplomacy. 
lenged. They have issued a defiance so In the principles the noble Earl opposite 
audacious that I can hardly depict it lays down everybody, of course, must 
adequately without using stronger words agree. No negotiation is conducted under 
than are suited to this Assembly, and favourable terms, every negotiation runs 
they have, by so doing, liberated us from a great chance of being wrecked, if the 
the necessity of explaining to the people opinions on either side are exposed during 
of England why we are at war. Whether I its progress to the exaggerated influence 
if that defiance had not been issueil we of popular discussion. \\'e do not always 
should now have been at war I cannot get in this w^orld what we desire. We 
say. There were subjects of the gl•a^•est i^et what we have to take, and the consti- 
difference between us — subjects on which tutional conditions under which we 
we were lK)und and pledged to arrive at live, enormous as is the strength w^hich 
an issue consistent with the duty which they gi\Q us in certain circumstances, 
Her Majesty owes to her subjects, con- greatly as they magnify the power of 
sistent with the desire we have always England in any real danger, luidoubtedly 
entertained of supporting equal rights furnish us with conditions which make 
among all the white inhabitants of Africa, the conduct of negotiations very much 
They were -very grave questions in- more difficult than formerly. Open di- 
deed, but up to this time the modes plomacy is not selected out of mere gaiety 
we had suggested of settling them of heart. It is much more difficult and 
had not ]>een successful. The spirit i much more thorny than the older system. 
in which we had been met had ' But there are occasions on which you 
not been encouraging. We had little cannot observe absolute secrecy without 
hope that the future would reserve for us sacrificing a great source of power. AMiat 
a better fate, but yet hope was not en- is this controversy which we have had to 
tirely abandoned. Now all question of adjust or at least to deal with in South 
possible peace, all (question of justify irg Africa 1 It is a controversy, no doubt, 
the attitude that we have assumed, or of between two races nearly balanced in 
pointing out to our countrymen the erroi-s power, one of which races is naturally 
and the grave oppressions of which the devoted to this country, and the other is 
Transvaal Government have been guilty ' divided — many of them being by con- 
— all these questions have been wiped viction, hy observation, and by experience 
away in this o :e great insult, which firm and devoted adherents and subjects 
leaves to us no other coui*se to pursue ' of the Queen, many of them still haunted 
than that which, with the assent of the | with the vision of some future return of 
whole nation, we have felt it our duty to Dutch supremacy. Well, when you have 
pursue. It is not necessary for me to i to interfere in such a conflict as that, 
insist upon that on which both we and when you have to sustain in the main the 
the noble Earl opposite agree. I will British side of the contention, and to 
only say that it is one of the most satis- struggle for the rights and claims and 
factory parts of our policy in these later authority of the Queen, you have to 
days that when a question arises in which look around you and see what 
vital interests and the evident honour forces vou have at your back. 
of this country are concerned there An English Minister is not an organ of a 
are no distinctions of party among despotic power, who has merely to give 
us, and that no individual ambi- the word of command, upon which the 
tion, no opportunity of diminishing i policy he selects will be unflinchingly 
the influence of an adversary, will tempt carried out. He has to look, almost at 
English politicians on either side to make , every moment, for the amount that he 



can command of that popular support 
which is the breath of life to all political 
movements in this age ; and the British 



use of the difficulties of their country in 
order to promote their party ends. Some- 
times, when we read of the earlier con- 
stitutional experiences of this country, as Minister who has to consider the state of 
we have bjen led to do of late bv an aflairs at the Cape, and to sustain the 
eloquent hand, we may congratulate our cause of British supremacy, has to con- 
selves, at all events, that, so far a^ this is ciliate, to retain, to encourage, to push 
concerned, the present representatives of forward as much of that loyalty to Her 
the Liberal Party are more than credit- Majesty as he can command ; and he 
able representatives of Charles James cannot afford by secrecy, by neglecting 



19 Addrei^s in Ansicer to {LORDS} the Queen's Spee-h. 20 

the feelings of those to whom he has to are willing to sustain the policy of this 
look for support — he cannot afford to i country. Those two necessities are draw- 
leave theirattention uncalled, their feelings ; backs to the constitutional system. The 
unappealed to ; he is bound to seek most splendid successes always have their 
support in their feelings, and by placing drawbacks, and, until the noble Lord can 
before them a full exposition of the case get rid of the heritage of 1688, of which 
on behalf of which he invokes their aid, these necessities are the necessary result — 
to give them such information as . unless he goes back to a state of govem- 
will place at his di.>posal and range ment which I am sure is very alien to 
behind him all the moral and all the his sympathies and his desires — he will 
physical force which those who are never escape the necessity of consult- 
devoted to the English side can confer ing, to a certain extent, the opinion 
upon him. If that were necessary, if he of those on whoso support he 
could not afford to allow British interests • depends for carrying out any policy 
in the Cape by apathy or by ignorance to i he has in hand. That is my view 
fall away from the Cn)wn, how is it pos- in respect to the ([uestion which the noble 
sible .that he could proceed with the care- Lord raised. At the same time, I am 
fully secret methods of the older diplo- bound to say that I think a great deal 
macy ? I am not doubting the superiority ' too much has been made of the supposed 
of the older system ; but if you have to \ provocation contained in the language of 
appeal for popular support the older dip- \ the despatch referred to by the noble 
lomacy will not do. That seems to me to i Lord. There may have been certain 
sum up the essence of the policy which : details in that despatch of Sir Alfred 
has been undoubtedly pursued. We Milner which have l>een misunderstood, 
always have to consider the loyal popula- I will not dwell upon that, as I have not 
lion wherever we are dealing with a got the despatch before me, but my im- 
country in which the loyal population is | pression is that upon the whole of that 
separated from those that are not loyal, class of argument the most exaggerated 
But the noble Lord dwelt very much value has been placed. The theory 
upon the virtue of silence. I entirely appears to be that President Kruger is an 
agree with him. I should have amiable but very sensitive old man — 
been very glad to have cultivated sensitive to every word that may excite 
it, even on the present occasion. ' suspicion, or may suggest any future 
I do not doubt that the system, which I political constitution for his country other 
think Lord Granville used to pursue, and than that which he desires, and, so f ar aa 
which had great advantages in it, of these feelings aixj concerned, he sustains 
absolutely refusing to make any speeches them, and expresses them with a 
while negotiations were going on, had, fervour and a restlessness more becom* 
on the side of diplomacy, very con- ing a hysterical young lady than 



siderable advantages : but, after all, you 
can only conduct a policy, or the measures 
to which diplomacy must give rise, with 



the President of a great Republic. 
I have always been greatly surprised by 
this view of President Kruger's character. 



the help and approval of Parliament and ' My impression is, or was, certainly that 



the cordial support of the electors, and, 
again, to ol)tain their help you must in 



he was a sort of man who would say that 
hard words would break no bones, and. 



form their minds, you nnist lay before if he got the kind of policy he wanted, 
them the real facts of the case ; and if j he would not be much troubled by the 
you refuse to do that, and wrap yourself English phraseology in which it was 
up in your own virtues, and will not wrapped up. But I take an entirely 
appeal to the sentiments and the loyalty ■ different view, and I hope, not an un- 
which are ready to your hands, the result j charitable one. My belief is that the 
is, that instead of support and en- desire to get rid of that word ^ suxe- 
thusiasm, you get nothing hut apathy .. rainty, and the realities which it ex- 
and neglect. I do not understand i presses, has ])een the dream of President 
that the Minister responsible for i Kruger's life. Long before the treaty ol 
conducting great negotiations can afford 1881 was negotiated, it was his 
either to ignore the feelings of the British desire. It was for that ho set on 
party on the spot, or to keep them in the negotiations of 1884, and m 
ignorance, and, therefore, deprive of the • to get that hateful word out of *^' 
opportunity of assisting him those who I vention he made considerable 

The Marquess of Salisburi/. 



21 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} 



tJie Queens Speech. 



22 



and other sacrifices. The noble Marquess 
[the Marquess of Ripon] will, I think, 
remember a certain memorandum which 
he wrote giving an account of President 
Kruger's wishes, in which great promi- 
nence was given to that intense desire to 
get rid of that word suzerainty, and 
now my belief as to the real secret of his 
policy during these last years has been 
that he has seen in the Uitlander popula- 
tion beneath him somebody whom he can 
oppress, somebody in whose sufferings we 
are interested ; and he has used the 
oppression of the Uitlander population as 
a screw by which to obtain some conces- 
sion on the subject of the suzerainty from 
us. I can point out phrases from recent 
negotiations which would amply sustain 
that idea. It may be that the word 
suzerainty has no meaning. As that view 
has been suggested by the noble Earl 
to whom, I believe, we owe the 
word, it is deserving of consideration. 
But my impression is not that it does not 
mean absolutely nothing, but that it 
means a number of things from which 
you can take your choice. I entirely 
agree with the noble Lord that it is a 
word who ly unnecessary for our present 
purpose. Situated as Great Britain is 
in South Africa towards the Transvaal 
and the Uitlander population, who are 
our subjects in the Transvaal, we have a 
paramount power and duty which has 
nothing whatever to do with any con- 
ventional suzerainty. I do not think 
that is the opinion of President Kruger. 
The word to him was a magic word, and 
he would do anything in order to get rid 
of it, and, though it may be perfectly 
true — I maintained that opinion at the 
time — that the word in itself has no dis- 
tinct or special meaning, it is still true 
that, having been put into the Treaty, it 
has obtained an artificial value and meaning 
which prevents us from entirely abandon- 
ing it. We cannot drop it and restore 
things to the condition in which they 
were before the word suzerainty was 
adopted. If we were to drop it we 
should be intimating that the ideas which 
have come to be associated with it are 
ideas which we repudiate and abandon 
altogether. Of course that is a position 
we cannot adopt. I believe it is largely 
due to President Kruger — I do not say it 
as blaming him — it is largely due to his 
peculiar character and to the idea which 
he has pursued that the moment has 
arrived for deciding whether the future of 



South Africa is to be a growing and increas- 
ing Dutch supremacy or a safe, perfectly es- 
tablished supremacy of the English Queen. 
To the state of things established by the 
Convention of 1881 or 1884, whatever it 
may have been, we can never return. We 
can never consent, while we have the 
strength to resist it, to be put into the 
same position which we have held in 
South Africa for the last seventeen or 
eighteen years. With regard to the 
future there must be no doubt that the 
Sovereign of England is paramount; 
there must be no doubt that the white 
races will be put upon an equality, and 
that due precaution will be taken for the 
philanthropic and kindly and improving 
treatment of those countless indigenous 
races of whose destiny, I fear, 
we have been too forgetful. Those 
things must be insisted upon in the 
future. By what means they will be 
obtained 1 do not know ; I hope they 
may be consistent with a very large 
autonomy on the part of a race which 
values its individual share in the govern- 
ment so much as the Dutch people do. 
But with that question we have no 
concern at present. We have only to 
make it clear that the great objects which 
are essential to the power of England in 
Africa, to the good government of the 
country, and to the rights of all races are 
the objects which the British Govern- 
ment, with the full support of the nation 
without distinction of party, are now 
pursuing, and which they will thoroughly 
pursue and preserve to the end. 

*LoRD LOCH : Mav I venture to ask 
the indulgence of your Lordships while I 
make a few remarks upon the question 
now before the House ? I do not propose 
to refer to the criticisms of the negotia- 
tions prior to the breaking out of hostili- 
ties, but there is no better time than the 
present to prove to the Boers that all 
parties in this country are united in the 
opinion that we are the paramount Power, 
and intend to remain the paramount 
Power in South Africa. The noble Mar- 
quess said it was unnecessary now to enter 
into the details of the causes which have 
led to the war, but I venture to think that 
there is considerable misapprehension in 
this country and abroiul with regard to 
what has been the cause of the war. 
Many people consider that it is due to the 
refusal on the part of the South African 
Republic to grant a five years franchise 



-J3 Address in Answer to { LORDS | the Queen's Speech. 24 

to the Uitlaiulers. I l)elieve that if that time I met President Kruger there was 
were to be regarded as the cause of the an endeavour on his part to obtain rights 
war, many wouhl hesitate to consider that which were inconsistent with the spirit 
we were justified in going to war on such and the letter of the Convention of 1884. 
an issue. But there are other causes— | It was this state of things, added to the 
causes to which the noble Marquess has Uitlander difficulties, which, I believe, 
alluded — which I venture to think are \ led ultimately to the action adopted by 
sufficient to justify the course that has ' his Government and by the Government 
been pursued, and which it was inevitable of the Orange Free State. We know that 
theGovernment would have toadopt. Those the unfortunate Raid united the Dutch, or 
who have studied the history of South large sections of the Dutch, in their feel- 
Africa, and especially that period of the ing of sympathy with the Transvaal 
history of South Africa that relates to Government, and it afforded to 
the Boer Republic, will see that it was President Kruger an opportunity of 
impossil)le that the state of the relations \ arming the country and raising 
between the (jovernnient of the South forts at Pretoria and Johannesburg 
African Republic and this country could and in other parts of the Transvaal. 
long continue, I will not refer to many Against whom were the country arming, 
of the details, but I may mention a few. j and against whom were those forts raised ? 
Your Lordships are aware that the Con- Why, my Lords, against the Power which, 
vention of 1884 required that the in a moment of generosity, had restored 
Government of the South African Re- ■ to President Kruger and his people the 
public should do their utmost to restrain country which they have so much mis- 
their people from going across the governed. No one can regret more 
boundaries of the Republic for the deeply than I do that war has been forced 
puq)ose of occupying land — boundaries upon this country ; no one knows better 
which were mentionecl in the Convention, than I do the misery that it will cause. 
The ink was scarcely dry on that Conven- ' Where there has been inter-marriace and 
tion when the Boers entered Swaziland long years of friendship, there will now 
---Zambaan's and L'^mln'geza's territories ! l)e brothers against brothers, and hus- 
with the knowledge and later with the bands against their brothers-in-law, and I 
full approval of the (lovernment of the know of several instances where fathers 
Transvaal Republic. Your Lordships are now pitted against their sons. No 
well know of the invasion of Bechuana- one can feel more deeply than I 
land, which led to the Warren Elxpedi- do as to the necessity which has 
tion, ])ut perhaps your Lordships are not . arisen for this country entering 
so well aware that shortly after Her upon these hostilities with the South 
Majesty's Government had placed the African Republic, but I confess I do not 
Chartered Company in possession of the think that the Government had any other 
'Country they held under their charter, alternative than the one they hare 
two treks were formed, one of over 4,000 adopted. I could not go altogether with 
men, to occupy that territory, and another them in all the nesrotiations which took 
to enter the Protectorate ; this was another place prior to these hostilities, but I 
proof of the absence of friendly relations recognise the need of supporting the 
between the Government of the South Government upon this occasion. No one 
African Republic and this country. The throughout this country who had read 
Government of the Republic repudiated all that arrogant message from President 
knowledge of these "treks "until a regiment Kruger could for a moment doubt 
was sent to Mafeking and were informed the absolute necessity and duty 
that the various drifts of the Crocodile of teaching the 13oer8 — and, my 
and Limpopo Rivers were armed and Lords, not only the Boers, but the 
garrisoned, and on that they yielded, natives and those who are enjoying 
I have had many meetings with the privileges of British citizenship in our 
President Kruger, and I venture to cohmies, and who are yet sympathising 
agree with the luAAa Mar([uess in with, and doing somewhat more than 
thinking that the object of l*resident symjiathising with, the Republics — ^that 
Kruger and his advisers was to rid them- we are determined to maintain our right- 
selves of that control, slight as it was, ful position as the dominant Power in 
which was exercised by this count ly over South Africa. 1 am glad that Her 
the independence of the Transvaal. Kvery Majesty's Government appear to have 

Litrd Loch. 



25 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} 



the Qmen's Speech, 



25 



sent a large, I may say an overwhelming, 
force to South Africa. On the ground of 
humanity I congratulate the Government, 
because I believe it is quite possible that, 
when the Boers realise that this large 
number of troops are on the way to the 
Transvaal they will also realise the im- 
possibility of resisting them. I know of 
many Boers who did not believe that 
England had a larger force of troops than 
the three or four regiments existing in 
South Africa, and the majority of the 
Boers have gone to the war with a light 
heart, ignorant of what they had under- 
taken, and of what was before them. I 
hope that when they see the impossibility 
of holding out they may be prepared to 
endeavour to come to terms. But, if I 
may venture to say so, I trust that if they 
ask for terms prior to our thorough occupa- 
tion of the Transvaal and the Orange 
Free State all terms will be rejected. 
May I say that one of the conditions which 
should be imposed upon the Republics 
should be total disarmament ? We 
cannot leave the Boers armed and ready 
to menace us again when the troops are 
withdrawn. And I venture to think, if 
I may express an opinion, not only that 
the Boers should be disarmed, but that 
both the Republics should be annexed to 
the Empire. We should deal liberally 
with them, and give them — what they 
refused to the Uitlanders — the franchise 
equally with the Uitlanders. Under a 
strict and strong Imperial executive I 
believe that such an arrangement would 
in a very short time be viewed with 
satisfaction, and would bring about a 
federation which would do more than 
anything else to promote the welfare and 
happiness of South Africa. There is one 
very pleasing aspect of this sad war, and 
that, my Lords, is the loyalty which has 
been expressed by all our colonies in offer- 
ing troops to assist us, and I rejoice to 
think that those offers have been accepted. 
I thank your Lordships for the way in 
which you have listened to my observa- 
tions. There were manv details which I 
could have wished to have entered upon, 
but it is undesirable to do so at this 
moment. I wish to express my full sense 
of approval of the course which is now 
being adopted by Her Majesty's Govern- 
ment. The only exception I would take 
is that I wish a larger number of troops 
had been sent out earlier, so that we 
might have been relieved from all causes 
of anxiety with regard to Mafeking, 



Kimberley, and the upper portion of the 

Protectorate. I have every confidence,, 

however, that these places will successfully 

resist all the attacks made upon them. 

Mafeking is garrisoned by a body of men 

well able to meet the Boers in the field 

in their own tactics, well able to defend 

Mafeking from behind the fortifications- 

that have been raised there, and well able 

to maintain the honour of this country at 

all hazards to themselves. I am certain,. 

I also, that the arrangements made at 

' Kimberley are quite sufficient to resist 

! successfully three or four times the 

; number of Boers that will be brought 

' against our force there. I thank your 

Lordships for so patiently listening to me,. 

but having been so recently in South 

Africa, and having occupied the position 

of High Commissioner and Governor, I 

felt it to be my duty to say these few 

words in support of the motion which is 

now before the House. 

The Earl of CAMPERDOWN: My 
Lords, I desire to offer a very few re- 
marks to the House, but at the same time 
I wish to apologise to your Lordships for 
intruding on this occasion. I am well 
aware of the practice of your Lordships*^ 
House, and if Parliament were meeting 
under ordinary circumstances, and to 
consider an ordinary state of affairs, it 
would be easy to postpone any remarks 
that one might have to make until some 
more suitable occasion. But, my Lords, 
I am afraid this is the only occasion we 
shall have of expressing our opinions 
with regard to this matter, and therefore 
I am compelled to trespass upon your 
Lordships' patience for a very few 
moments. The general tone of the 
debate hitherto must, I think, give 
satisfaction to every lover of this 
country. It is most satisfactory to know,, 
although we might have been sure that it 
would be so, that all parties in this House 
desire to offer Her Majesty's Government 
all the support which it is in their power 
to give. The ultimatum has done 
i away with all party feeling for the 
moment, and has united the whole 
country, because it proves the accuracy 
of the suspicion which has been enter- 
tained for a long time, and which is very 
widely entertained, that President Kruger 
never intended to give to the Uitlandera 
any privileges that were really deserving 
the name, and that this move on his part 
has been a move not so much against the 



27 Addresi> in Amwer to {LORDS [ fhe Queen's SpeecJi, 28 

Uitlaiiders as against British authority in | to the Transvaal Government a Joint 
South Africa. I feel sure he has been j Inquiry as to whether the provisions of 
grossly deceived in this matter. There is their law, giving a seven years franchise, 
some reason to think he is under the im- were such as would efiiciently carry out 
pression that he will (obtain support from their reported intention. In reply to 
abroad. He will probably be soon uu- that the Transvaal Government raised 
deceived on that head. But that this objections to a Joint Inquiry, and made 
move on his part has for its intention the an alternative proposal of a law which 
abrogation of British authority in South should give a five years franchise ; but 
Africa is shown >)v the series of circum- thev attached certain conditions with 
stances which appear throughout the regard to the suzerainty and other 
Papers, and with most of which your matters. This they asked Mr. Chamber- 
Lordships are already acquainted. For , lain to accept as a substitute. It 
what purpose has been the armament of , was not at all surprising that Mr. 
Pretoria ? For what purpose have hun- Chamberlain declined to accept the 
dreds of thousands of rifles been brought proposal accompanied by such con- 
into the Orange Free State and the ditions. The conditions with regard 
Transvaal, far more than are required to the suzerainty were in diametrical 
for all the Boers in those two States ? opposition to the opinions he had already 
For what purpose has been the offen- expressed in despatches. The Transvaal 
sive and defensive alliance with the \ Government then asked that Mr. Cham- 
Orange Free State 'I The Uitlanders, | berlain should revert to the Joint Inquiry 
who have lately been making re- ! into their seven years franchise, but the 
presentations tu Her Majesty's High ' right hon. Gentleman declined, and said 
Commissioner, Sir Alfred Milner, have matters had gone beyond that point. The 
pointed out to him, in language which is question I would address to the noble 
well deserving of your Lordships' atten- • Earl the Under Secretary is. What were 
tion, that thev believe this is in reality a Mr. Chamberlain's reasons for so 
move directed against the whole power of declining ? There is another question 
this country. It is not necessary to say ' I wish to address to the noble Earl, 
anything fuither on the general question, ; Objection has been raised that Mr. 
but the noble Karl the Leafier of the : Chamberlain increased his terms, and, 
Opposition pointed out to your Lordships instead of this inquiry with regard to a 
that some of Mr. Chamberlain's methods : seven years franchise, insisted that there 
and plans of action had not been, in his : must be a five years franchise without 
opinion, what they ought to have been, any conditions at all. I admit that any 
The noble Eiirl first of all told us that his careful person who has read the 
tongue was to some extent tied, but he , Blue Books will have seen that 
then proceeded to unti(i it and to go into • Mr. Chamberlain insisted from the 
the verv details wliieh I understood him i first on a live years franchise. 
to say he deprecatcMl. I nnist confess I but gi*eat fault has been found 
do not st»e any objection to the course he with him for his action. Mr. Chamber- 
finally adopted. I am only sorry he did I lain said he felt sure President Kruger, if 
not pursue it a little further. The opini(ms once there was a Joint Inquiry, would 
of Mr. Chamberlain and the action of i agree to the variation of certain of the 
Mr. Chamberlain, jifter all, do not go to , conditions proposed, and one of those 
the root of tlu* (juestion. They are \ conditit)ns mentioned was the duration of 
matters of secondary importance. Upon the franchise, which President Kruger 
the determination (►f this country to asserted at that time was to l)e for seven 
maintain oui power in South Africa we years. There is one further remark I 
are one ancl all agivecl, an(l on iliat point . ;^.jgyj to make, and it is with regard to 

there is no diflerence whatever. But, m ,, • , ^ri 1 1 at *. 

. . . ... Ill 1 the suzeramtv. 1 he noble Maniuess at 

view of the cnticisins wrnch have heen , , , .' , ., , , 

<lirected against some of Mr. Chamber- ^^^^ *^^*'^^^ ^»^ ^^'^ Government observed 

laiirs metliods and actions, 1 wouhl like that the term had been mvented by the 

to ask the noble Ivirl the I'nder Secre- noble F^arl the Earl of Ivimberley. 

tary of State for the Coloin'es a question 

or two. Your Lordships will recollect TiiK Mak(,)1 Kss of SALISBL^RY : 

that at one time Mr. Chamberlain — at I said it was inserted in the Convention 

the end of July, I think it wa*<- offered by Lord Kiniberley. 



29 Address in Answer io {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 30 

The Eakl of CAMPERDOWN : At precedent for future similar action, and 
all events, the noble Earl was indirectly that in future no interference in the 
responsible for it. If I had not seen it , internal affairs of the Republic would* 
written I would not have believed it, take place. But when we get to the 
There is no person in this House who is despatch, how does it appear ] The 
more remarkable for accurate ideas and, i despatch contains these words — 

generally speakine:, for accurate language ,,r e ^ Tr^ci..*-. 
^1 . 1 "^ Si T7*^ ] u 1 J 4.U A In future Her Majesty s Government are 

than the no])le Earl who leads the Oppo- i ^^^ to interfere in the internal affairs of the 
sition, but I venture to say that the j South African Republic." 
drafting of the Conventions of 1881 and ' 

1884 does anvthing but credit to their ! ^ that had been assented to by Mr. Cham- 
authors, whoever thev may have been. , berlain, what would have been the result? 
What is really important to consider is : Not only would Her Majesty's Govern- 
not the word suzerainty, nor what Mr. i have undertaken not to interfere, whether 
Chamberlain meant by suzerainty, but what I as suzerain or otherwise, in the internal 
President Kruger meant hy it ; and what affairs of the Republic, ])ut they would 
he means is to be found in the despatch I have gone so far as to undertake to give 
of May 9 of the present vear, when Mr. I up that international right which they 
Reitz, on behalf of the Transvaal Govern- I possess of looking after the interests of 
ment wrote ' their subjects in the Transvaal State. 

The next condition was — 
" Inasmuch as the (Convention of 1881 wa.s 

entirely abrojjated and superseded by that of i "Further, Her Majesty's Goveniment will 

1884, m wlucli alone certain limited and ■ not insist on the assertion of suzerainty, the 

specilied rights were guaranteed to Great | controvei-sy on tliis subject being tacitly 

Britain without theie being any fresh mention allowed to drop.*' 

of self-government, it follows of itself that . 

the now existing right of absolute self-govern- There was enough danger in that, as 

ment of this Kepublic is not derived either written in the original telegram, but this 

from the Conventions of 1881 or 1884 but ' jg ^^^ ^^^y in which it appears in the 

8unply and solely from the inherent right ^* j 4. u 

this Republic as a Sovereign International , ^cspatcn 

" Not to insist further on its assertion of the 
From that interpretation the Transvaal I «^^^^"^« «^ '^^^^"'^"^y" 
has never receded in the least. No one xhe language in the despatch is entirely 
who reads the Blue Books which relate to different from the conversations, and, if 
this matter since 1881 can fail to come to ' ^^^e conditions had been accepted. Her 
the conclusion that it is the position of Majesty's Government would have given 
the Transvaal as a sovereign independent ■ ^p ^h^t right which Mr. Cham])erlain has 
State to which Piesident Kruger attaches g^id on more than one occasion he would 
CTeat importance at the present moment, i ^ot surrender under any circumstances 
If Mr. Cham]»erlain had allowed that i whatever. There was another condition, 
thing to pass uncontradicted he would ; ^^j^^._ 
have done his very best to get this nation ! 
into trouble, possiblv at a future time, "As soon as the franchise scheme has 

when the trouble w<mi1<1 be of greater I ,^^^«"« ^^'^ fY'l'l'Z' JJZ^J l^Jhl 

. , . 1^1 ft-reign element is to be excluded, is to be 

consequence. At the time when the I acee(Te<l." 
Transvaal Government proposed to make ; 

an alternative ofl'er to Her Majesty's i If that condition had been accepted in 
Grovernment of a certain scheme in lieu of i the words in which it stands, Her 
a Joint Inquiry, the State Attorney, Mr. Majesty's Government would have bound 
Smuts, had a conversation with the ! themselves to agree to arbitration on all 
British Agent, and 1 would point out, by I matters. They would have agreed to 
reading to you two passages from what arbitrate not only on the interpretation 
Mr. Smuts said to Mr. Conyngham I of terms in the Convention, but on all 
Greene in conversation, how it was ; matters, and thereby they would have 
entirely and fundamentally altered when placed the Transvaal on an ccjuality with 
it was translated in a despatch. In a themselves as a free and sovereign inde- 
conversation it was said that Her pendent State. Indeed, traps have been 



Majesty's Government were to agree, in 
return for a live years franchise, that the 



laid for Her Majesty's Government by 
the Transvaal from the beginning to the 



present intervention was not to form a end of the negotiations, and if Mr. 



31 Address in Answer to \ LCJKDS | ////' Queen's Sj^eerh. 32 

Chamberlain had given way, and not ' pressed by the High Commissioner, and 
insisted on maintaining the supremacy of I am certain no one would have criticised 
this country, whether it is described as us more severely than the noble Earl if we 
suzerainty or paramountcy, he would had withheld from Parliament and the 
have failed most grossly in his duty to country the views of Sir Alfred Milner. 
his Sovereign and his country. I must, with your Lordships' permission, 

touch once more on the question of 

The under SECRETARY of suzerainty, which was raised by the 
STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The noble Earl. The noble Earl made it a 
Earl of Selborne) : My Lords, before I subject of very severe criticism of Mr. 
answer the question which the noble Earl Chamberlain that he htul so arranged the 
has put to me, I would like, with the controversy as to turn it upon a re- 
permission of the noble Earl the Leader assertion of the claim of suzerainty, and 
of the Opjxjsition to make a reference to that this had produced in the mind of 
one or two of his remarks. We have President Kruger, and in the minds of 
heard an argument from the two noble the Boers, a fertile cause of suspicion. 
Lords most ({ualified to take part in this This is all a complete misconception. 
Debate as to the respective merits of We never raised the question of suzcr- 
various systems of diplomacy. I would , ainty at all in connection with the fran- 
not dare to give any expression of opinion ! chise controversy. If you look through 
in the presence of such experts, but the | the whole of the correspondence, be- 
Leader of the Opposition, in criticising ' ginning with the despatch of May 5 in 
the Government for repeatedly publish- answer to the petition of the Uitlanders, 
ing at an early date the despatches and you will not find the word suzerainty 
telegrams they had sent, entirely forgot used once until Her Majesty's Govern- 
one thing — namely, that, apart altogether ' ment had to answer questions and 
from any action of Her Majesty's Govern- conditions su])mitted by President Kniger 
ment, the other parties to the negotia- in the telegrams of Au£;ust 19 and 21. 
tions, the Transvaal Republic, were per- Thefactis, whateveropinionmaybeheldas 
petually publishing accounts themselves, to what is called the suzerainty controversy, 
but with this great difference — that on that controversy was absolutely finished 
every occasion the version they published and concluded before the franchise con- 
was inaccurate. trovc^rsy ]»egan, and it was President 

Kruger, and President Ivniger only, who 

The Earl of KIMBERLEY : Did dragged into the franchise controversy 
they publish that long telegram from Sir the <juestion of the suzerainty. I think I 
Alfred Milner of May 5 1 can show your Lordships, very briefiy, 

how that was. " Why,*' it is asked, " did 

The Earl of SELBORNE: I did Her Majesty's Government raise the 
not understand the noble Earl to confine suzeraintv controversv at all ? " That is 
his criticism to that telegram only. Sup- a fair question to ask, and one which it is 
pose the (government hiid published their my duty to answer. When the present 
Blue Book, and had introduced this sulh ', Government came into power they in- 
ject to the country and to Parliament j hcrited a controversy which had begun 
without any expression of opinion from under their predecessors— a controversy 
the High Commissioner, the first thing connected with the submission of Treaties, 
the noble Earl opposite would have asked Under Article IV. of the Convention of 
would have )>een, ** What does your High Pretoria, no treaty made by the South 
Commissioner think ? " Would it have African Republic is valid unless by the 
been possible to conduct a del)ato in " consent of Her Majesty. A controverey 
Parliament and conceal the views of the . arose as to the particular form in whieb 
High Commissioner ? Her Majesty's assent was to- be signified, 

or, rather, as to the particular stage in 

The Earl of KIMBERLEY : I took , the completion of the Treaty at which it 
exception to the time the telegram was ; was to be held as concluded. This con- 
published, not to its being ultimately troversy ran on into the middle of 1897, 
published. when the South African Republic, in a 

, despatch of the 7th of May, refused toaccept 

The Earl of SELBORNE : We 1 our interpi-etation of the meaning of the 
were bound to publish the views ex- : Convention, and brought forwam a pro 

T?ie Earl of Camperdown. ! 



33 Address in Aiiswer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech, 34 



posal to submit the interpretation of the 
Convention and the manner of exercising 
HerMajesty'spowerstoforeignarbitration. 
That was a most important step on their 
party and one which it was quite impos- 
sible for Her Majest3'*s Grovernment to 
pass over in silence, because it was only 
a repetition of their old proposals, which 
were scouted by Lord Derby. Through- 
out the whole of these negotiations and 
controversies between successive Govern- 
ments in this country and Pretoria, the 
one abiding object of the Government of 
Pretoria has been to assert equality with 
Her Majesty. They have left no oppor- 
tunity untried to obtain a recognition of 
equality. It was with that object, and 
no other, that in 1883 they asked Lord 
Derby to make a treaty, and the cardinal 
feature of it was that any points of dif- 
ference of interpretation in future were 
to be referred to a foreign arbitrator 
as between two equal Powers. Lord 
Derby absolutely repudiated this as 
a proposal which neither in form 
nor in substance the Grovernment 
could consider. Just as Lord Derby 
was compelled, in emphatic terms, to 
assert the position of Her Majesty, so the 
present Government felt that it would be 
a vital mistake to let these assertions go 
by unnoticed, and that nothing was more 
false in diplomacy, in relation to such a 
question, than not to assert plainly but in 
unaggressive language what the facts 
were. And so it came to pass that in 
October, 1897, a despatch was written 
which merely restated exactly the relative 
positions of Her Majesty and the South 
African Republic. It asserted that the 
Conventions were not treaties between 
equal Powers, and it defined the relations 
existing. It was in defining those rela- 
tions that the word suzerainty was 
used. That was in October, 1897. A 
long and very slow correspondence fol- 
lowed. I do not propose to argue the 
question of suzerainty. The point I 
want to impress upon your Lordships is 
this, that this controversy had practically 
dropped before the franchise controversy 
began. I can prove that that was so. I 
will read to your Lordships a quotation 
from the despatch of Her Majesty's 
Grovernment to the Acting High Commis- 
sioner, dated December 15, 1898 — 

" What the subetance of stuerainty is was 
described by Lord Kimberley in his despatch 
of March 31, 1881, as quoted by the State 
Secretary in paragraph 5 of his note— namely, | 

VOL. LXXVII. [Fourth Series.] 



* superiority over a State possessing indepen- 
dent rights of government, subject to reserva- 
tions with reference to certain specified 
matters.' These words appear to Her 
Majesty's Government accurately to describe 
the existing relations between Her Majesty 
and the South African Republic. Her 
Majesty's Government have taken note of the 
assurance, once more repeated at the com- 
mencement of Dr. Leyds's note, that the 
Government of the South African Republic are 
prejpared in every respect to abide by the stipu- 
lations of the Convention of 1884. These 
stipulations undoubtedly include ' reservations 
with reference to certain specified matters.* 
There is thus no controversy as to the essential 
point in the relations between the two Govern- 
ments, which gives to Great Britain a position 
of superiority; and, having regard to this 
position and to their determination not to 
permit the interference of any foreign Power 
between Great Britain and the South African 
Republic, Her Majesty^s Government are un- 
able to alter their decision not to submit to 
the arbitration of a forei^ Power questions 
relating to the interpretation or infrmgement 
of the Conventions oetween them." 

The Earl of KIMBERLEY : Is that 
in the Blue Book 1 

The Earl of SELBORNE: Yes, 
C. 9507. This despatch was sent in 
December of last year, and the aaswer 
was dated May 9 this year. It was the 
answer in which the Government of the 
South African Republic asserted their 
status as that of » Sovereign International 
State. Her Majesty's Government sent 
no elaborate reply, but the last word in 
the controversy was contained in the 
despatch of July 13, in the same Blue 
Book, in which Her Majesty's Govern- 
ment declare that "they have no 
intention of continuing to discuss this 
question." Therefore it is absolutely 
proved that, except for this, the whole of 
this controversy was concluded before 
the franchise controversy began. It 
could not, moreover, have had any par- 
ticular effect on President Kruger's mind 
when the franchise controversy com- 
menced, because, when he went to 
Bloemfontein to discuss the franchise 
with Sir Alfred Milner, although he 
mentioned several subjects which inter- 
ested his Government, he never men- 
tioned the word suzerainty, which was 
not introduced into this question at all 
until it was suddenly put in as a condi- 
tion in the telegrams of August 19 and 
21 from the Government of Pretoria. 
Therefore I say emphatically that it is 
not accurate to assert that Mr. Chamber- 
lain was most unfortunate in making this 

B 



35 



Address in Answer to 



{LORDS} 



the Queen^s Speech, 



36 



controversy turn on a reassertion of the 
claim to suzerainty. I do not wish to 
detain your Lordships long, but I should 
like to be allowed to say a word on a 
point which the noble Lord who spoke 
last has raised, and which has been a very 
fruitful subject of criticism in the 
speeches that have been made against 
the Government in the country. I refer to 
the question as to why, after having 
invited the Government of the South 
African Republic to an examination of 
their franchise law of July, Her Majesty's 
Government practically withdrew that in- 
vitation six weeks later. I am afraid I must 
ask your Lordships to follow the details 
of the negotiations closely. On July 27 
the Government telegraphed proposing a 
Joint Inquiry into the details of the law 
of July, not into the one detail of seven 
years' qualification, but into the whole 
franchise law. 

The Earl of CAMPERDOWN : It is 
quite true that the despatch was written 
on the 27th July, but it was held back, 
for certain reasons, and delivered some 
day in August, I believe the 23rd. 

The Earl of SELBORNE: The 
written despatch was sent off on the 27th 
July. It was not delivered, it is quite 
true, till the middle of August, but a 
telegraphic summary was sent the same 
day. The very next day after the tele- 
gram was written the proposal was before 
the Government of Pretoria at full length. 
On August 15 the British Agent tele- 
graphed that as the Government of Pre- 
toria were anxious to avoid this Joint 
Inquiry, which they regarded as deroga- 
tory to their independence, they were 
prepared to make certain alternative 
proposals. On August 17 Her Majesty's 
Government telegraphed as follows — 

" If the South African Republic Govemmenb 
should reply to the invitation to a Joint Inquiry 
put forward by Her Majesty's Government by 
formally making the proposals described in 
your telcin'am, such a course would not be 
regarded by Her Majesty's (Government as a 
refusal of their olfer, but th^y would be pre- 
pared to consider the reply of the South African 
Kepublic Government on its merits." 

On August 19 and 21 the Government 
of the South African Republic telegraphed 
their formal offer ; and on September 5, 
after receiving the reply of Her Majesty's 
Government to that offer, they withdrew 
their proposal. It is said, my Lords, that 

The Earl of Selhome. 



the British Agent, Mr. Conyn^ham 
Greene, had promised to recommend the 
proposals which were made for the 
acceptance of Her Majesty's Government, 
and it is also said that the whole drift of 
his negotiations with the State Attorney, 
and the answers sent by Her Majesty's 
Government, would naturally lead tne 
Government of Pretoria to think that 
their proposals were going to be accepted. 
But, as the noble Earl has pointed out, 
there were very great and important dis- 
tinctions between the proposals which 
Mr. Conyngham Greene said he was pre- 
pared to recommend and the proposals 
which were actually made. I will give 
you one instance. The first telegram 
from Mr. Conyngham Greene was on 
August 15. It was initialled by the State 
Attorney, and therefore its correctness 
was absolutely proved. In that telegram 
it was stated that — 

"The simple details of the Franchise Law 
to be discussed mth British agent. He may 
have his own legal adviser. Anv other points 
which may arise to be discussed in the same 
way." 

But when it came to the despatch^ the 
allusion to this branch of the subject was 
as follows — 

"Government of the South African Be- 
public will always be prepared to take into 
consideration such friendly sug^tions re- 
garding the details of the Franchise Law as 
Her Majesty's Government, throash the 
British Agent, may wish to convey to it." 

I am not going to dwell on the misunder- 
standing which unfortunately arose be- 
tween the State Attorney and the British 
Agent. All I have to say is, that the 
British Agent is a trained diplomatist 
who has for many years proved his 
ability on many fields, and it is at least 
unlikely that he should have, to any great 
extent, misunderstood what the State 
Attorney said to him. It is necessaiy to 
draw attention to the very remarkable 
conflict of statement on the part of the 
South African Kepublic. Ota the one 
hand, the accusation made against Mr. 
Conyngham Greene, and against Her 
Majesty's Government, by no less a per- 
son than the President of the Orange 
Free State, is that the South African 
Eepublic were led on to make these 
proposals, and were induced at the poar- 
parlers to believe that their pro- 
posals would be accepted. This is^ 
in fact, an accusation of bad faith 



37 Address in Aimcer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 3d 



against the Governmont, founded 
on what is supposed to have passed 
between Mr. Conyngham Greene and Mr. 
Smuts. But what does Mr. Smuts say in 
the Blue Book which has just been pub- 
lished? Your Lordships will remember 
that the accusation of bad faith is founded 
upon his conversation with Mr. Conyngham 
Greene, and yet on page 24 of the Blue 
Book is a letter from Mr. Smuts to Mr. 
Greene, dated August 25, in which he 
makes the following extraordinary state • 
ment — 

•* I am very sorry that this misunderstanding 
-should have arisen and produced an apparently 
wroBg iinpression on the minds of Her 
Majesty's uovemment. I never intended these 
-coQversations to be conveyed to your Govern- 
ment, and would have spoken in such terms as 
to have removed all possible cause of mis- 
finderstanding from your mind." 

The principal answer I have to make in 
regard to this part of the negotiations is 
twofold. In the first place, any reference 
to the Blue Book will show that the 
answers Her Majesty's Government gave 
to the conditions about non-interference 
and ^suzerainty were the exact answers 
that Mr. Conyngham Green had told the 
Government of Pretoria would be given. 
Therefore, when they made theii offer 
they knew what the answer would be, 
and the statement that they withdrew 
their offer because of the answer they re- 
ceived will not bear examination. I am 
asked why, after that offer was with- 
drawn, we did not go back into an exami- 
nation of the law of July. In the interval 
that law had been carefully examined by 
competent legal critics in South Africa, 
and if your Lordships will only consult 
the analyses of that law to be found in 
the Blue Book published in August, you 
will see that no law that can possibly be 
imagined would be less calculated to carry 
out the object the Government had in 
view — namely, to obtain an immediate 
and substantial representation for the 
Uitlander population — than that law. 
It is no exaggeration to say that the law 
was drafted for the express purpose of 
takim; away from the Uitlanders that 
franchise which it pretended to give to 
them. It is simply a travesty of the 
tmth to contend that that law could have 
offered any solution for the object which 
Her Majesty's Government were pursu- 
ing. Having found out, in the mean- 
time, that there was no good to be 
^t out of that law, and six 



weeks having been wasted by the alter- 
native offer of the Government of Pre- 
toria—an offer which, as I have already 
said, they withdrew because an answer 
was given them which they knew before- 
hand would be given — Her Majesty's 
Government thought it would be trifling 
with a great crisis to go back at the end 
of the period to an examination of a law 
which had been shown to be quite impos- 
sible to work. Therefore, upon both these 
two points the answer is quite conclusive. 
I believe the solution of all these conun- 
drums is that which the noble Lord [Lord 
Loch] and the noble Marquess at the 
head of the Government have given us. I 
do not believe the Government of the 
South African Eepublic ever intended to 
give the franchise to the Uitlanders, and 
the reason is this — that they and those 
who sympathise with them in the Orange 
Free State — and this is a key to the 
otherwise inexplicable attitude of the 
Orange Free State — have had an ideal 
before their minds, quite honourable 
in itself, and one they were entitled 
as free men to cherish if they 
chose, yet which had this unfortunate 
and deadly blot in its conception, that it 
was absolutely incompatible with the ideal 
of the British people. That ideal was 
that the future development of South 
Africa should be on Dutch and not on 
British lines — that if South Africa should 
be federated in • the future it should be 
outside and not within the orbit of the 
British Empire. It is simply a conflict of 
two ideals which are incompatible, and 
the whole attitude of the South African 
Republic in this controversy has, I believe, 
been actuated by their determination to 
do everything in their power to render 
their ideal less diflficult to attain. This 
is not a war about the letter " s," or any 
small distinction between five and seven 
years franchise. It is a war brought 
about because two people, who ought to 
be kindred and who ought to be friends, 
have, unfortunately for themselves, 
cherished and aspired to two dittbrent 
ideals. Regretful, sad, and distressed as 
we are that we should be brought into 
conflict with the Dutch in South Africa, 
yet, when we were confronted with this 
question as to whether the paramountcy, 
the predominance of British influence was 
to be for ever asserted in South Africa or 
not, there could be no hesitation or doubt 
as to the line the Government should 
take. 

B 2 



$9 



RdumSy 



{LORDS} 



ReportSy &c. 



40 



The Earl of CAMPERDOWN: I 
should like to remind the noble Earl that 
there was one question I put to him which 
he has inadvertently omitted to answer. 
Mr. Chamberlain has been accused of 
having increased his terms to five years. 

The Earl of SELBORNE : In reply 
to that, I would point out that Sir Alfred 
Iklilner began at Bloemfontein by asking 
for five years, and that the final offer of 
Her Majesty's Government was five 
years. 

Address agreed to, nejnine disufniwiitCy 
and ordered to be presented to Her 
Majesty by the Lords with AVhite Staves. 



COMMITTEES. 

The Earl of Morley appointed, 
nemine dissentiejiie, to take the Chair in 
all Committees of this House for this 
Session. 

Committee for Privileges appointed. 
Committee for the Journals appointed. 

Stoppages in the Streets, Order to 
prevent, renewed. 

Appeal Committee appointed. 

JUDICIAL BUSINESS, 

Ordered, That for the purposes of the 
Judicial Business of this House, Monday 
the 13th day of November next ]ye 
deemed the " first sitting day after the 
Recess." 



RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 



The Lord Chancellor acquainted the 
House that the following Papers having 
been commanded to be presented to this 
House by Her Majesty had been so pre- 
sented on the following dates by delivery 
to the Clerk of the Parliaments, pur- i 
suant to Order of the House of the 17 th 
February 1896, viz. : 

TllADE REPORTS, 1898- ANNUAL 

SERIES. 

Diplomatic and Consular Reports on 
Trade and Finance : 

No. 2329. Nicaragua. (August 10.) 

No. 2330. Italy (Naples). (August ; 
10.) ' 



No. 2331. Italy (Sicily). (August 
16.) 

No. 2332. Brazil (Rio Grande do 

Sul) (August 18.) 

No. 2333. Portugal (Madeira). 
(August 18.) 

No. 2334. Madagascar. (August 18,) 

No. 2335. Germany (Dantzig.) 
(August 22.) 

No. 2336. Mexico. (August 22.) 

No. 2337. Sweden (Gothenburg.) 
(August 22.) 

No. 2338. Egypt (Port Said and 
Suez.) (August 22.) 

No. 2339. Japan (North Formosa.) 
(August 22.) 

No. 2340. China (Wuhu). (August 

22.) 

No. 2341. Japan (Tainan). (August 
26.) 

No. 2342. Bussia (Riga). (August 
30.) 

No. 2343. Russia. (August 30.) 

No. 2344. Germany. (August 31.) 

No. 2345. Germany (Stettin). (Sc^ 
tember 2.) 

No. 2346. Persia (Persian Ga]f)w 
(September 2.) 

No. 2347. Borneo (British North 
Borneo). (September 2.) 

No. 2348. China (Kiungchow). (Sep- 
tember 5.) 

No. 2349. United States (San Fran- 
cisco). (September 8.) 

No. 2350. France (Reunion). (Sep- 
tember 8.) 

No. 2351. Zanzibar. (September 21). 

No. 2352. United States (Philadd- 
phia). (September 21.) 

No. 2353. Siam (Bangkok). (Sep- 
tember 14.) 

No. 2354. Guatemala (Trade, Am- 
culture, and Finance). (&p- 
tember 14.) 

No. 2355. Japan (Nagasaki). (Sep- 
tember 14.) 

No. 2356. Austria-Hungaiy (Bocnk 
and the Herzegovina). (Seirtenh 

ber 20.) 

No. 2357. Bulgaria. (September 20.) 
No. 2358. Hayti. (September 23.) 
No. 2359. Turkey (Angola). (Sep- 
tember 28.) 
No. 2360. Guiana (French and 

Dutch). (September 28.) 
No. 2361. Havana. (October 3.) 



1 

I 



41 



Returns, 



{17 October 1899} 



BeparL% &c. 



42 



MISCELLANEOUS SERIES. 

Beports on Subjects of General and 
Commercial Interest — 

No. 509. British trade with Switzer- 
land. (August 16.) 

No. 510. Brazil (Commercial intelli- 
gence). (August 30.) 

No. 511. Brazil (Cotton spinning 
and weaving industries). August 
30.) 

No. 512. Brazil (Coffee production 
in Brazil and consumption in the 
United States). (September 2.) 

No. 513. Hungary (Zone tariff rail- 
ways). (September 8.) 

No. 514. Mexico (Tobacco). (Sep- 
tember 8.) 

No. 515. Hungary (Financial result 
of the purchase and working of 
the State railways). (October 2.) 

TREATY SERIES. 

No, 16 (1889). Convention between 
the United Kingdom and Guatemala re- 
lative to trade marks ; signed at Guate- 
mala, 20th July 1898. [Eatifications 
exchanged at Guatemala, 28th July 1899.] 
(September 7.) 

No. 17 (1899). Convention between 
the United Kingdom and Belgium relative 
to the remittance of Money Orders by 
Telegraph between the two Countries ; 
signed at London, 15th September, 1899. 
(Eatifications exchanged at London, 29th 
September, 1899.] (October 10.) 

VENEZUELA. 
No. 4 (1899). British Guiana Boundary 
Arbitration: Case of the United States 
of Venezuela before the Tribunal of 
Arbitration to convene at Paris under 
the provisions of the treaty between the 
United States of Venezuela and Her 
Britannic Majesty; signed at Washing- 
ton, 2nd February 1897. Volume I. 
(August 29.) 

No. 5 (1899). British Guiana Boundary 
Arbitration : Counter case of same : 
Volume I. (August 29.) 

No. 6 (1899). British Guiana Boundary 
Arbitration : Printed argument on behalf 
<A same (J. M. de Rojas, agent of Vene- 
zuela, Benjamin Harrison, Benjamin F. 
Tracy, S. Mallet-Prevost, James Russell 
Soley, counsel for Venezuela). (August 
29.) 



AFRICA. 



No. 8 (1899). Correspondence respect- 
ing the status of slavery in East Airica 
and the Islands of Zanzibar and Pemba. 
(August 24.) 

No. 9 (1899). Report by Lieutenant- 
Colonel Macdonald, R.E., of his expedi- 
tion from the Uganda Protectorate, 3rd 
May 1898, to 5th March 1899. (August 
24.) 

SOUTH AFRICAN REPUBLIC. 

Correspondence relating to the status 
of the South African Republic (in con- 
tinuation of [C.-8721.]). (August 11.) 

Further correspondence relating to pro- 
posed political reforms in the South 
African Republic (in continuation of [C- 
9415.]). (August 25.) 

Further correspondence relating to 
political affairs in the South African 
Republic (in continuation of [C.-9518.]). 
(September 9.) 

Further correspondence relating to 
political affairs in the South African 
Republic (in continuation of [C.-9521.]). 
(October 2.) 

NIGERIA. 

Correspondence relating to the Benin 
Territories Expedition, 1899, (Octo- 
ber 10.) 

SAMOA, No. 1 (1899). 

Correspondence respecting the affairs 
of Samoa. Report of the Joint Commis- 
sion. (October 11.) 

COLONIES (ANNUAL) REPORTS. 

No. 266. Leeward Islands, 1898. 
(August 14.) 

No. 267. St. Lucia, 1898. (August 23.) 
No. 268. Fiji, 1898. (August 30.) 

No. 269. Turks and Caicos Islands, 
1898. (September 5.) 

No. 270. Malta, 1898. (September 20.) 

No. 271. Gold Coast, 1898. (Septem- 
ber 20.) 

No. 272. Trinidad, 1898. (Septem- 
ber 20.) 

No. 273. Sierra Leone, 1898. (Sep- 
tember 27.) 

No. 274. Ceylon, 1898. (October 5.) 



CorreBponderice regarding the measures 
to be adopted for checking the spread of 
venereal disease (in continuation of H.C. 
.147). (September 16.) 

STRAITS SETTLEMENTS. 
Reports on the Federated Malay States, 

for 1898. (September 27.) 

PKISON COMMISSION (SCOTLAND). 

Report on Prison Dietaries, by James 
Craufurd Dunlop, M.D. (August 16.) 

INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRE- 
LAND) COMMISSION. 
Final Report of the Commissioners. 
(August 16.) 
Appendix thereto — 
Part I. bliniites of Evidence. 

(August 16.) 
Part II. Miscellaneous Documents. 
(August 16.) 

FACTORY AND WORKSHOP. 

Dangerous Trades. ^Final Report of 



{LORDS} Bepm-ts, dx. « 

MINES AND QUARRIES. 
General Reports and Statistics for 



Part XL Labour— GJeneral Report 
and Statistics relating to persons 
employed and accidents at mines 
and quarries in the United King- 
dom, and to the enforcement of 
the Mines and Quarries Acts. 
(August 23.) 

Part III. Output— General Report 
and Statistics relating to the out- 
put and value of the minerals 
raised in the United Kingdom, 
the amount and value of the 
metals produced, and the ex- 
ports and imports of minerals. 
■" ■ ■ "0.) 



INDIA. 
Statistical Abstracts relating to British 
India from 1888-89 to 1897-98. Thirty- 
third number. (September 1.) 



Report by the Board of Trade ol their 



the De,»rtm.„lal Comm.ttte, appomted ^j /„„d„ n, T™mw.y. Act, 

by the bocretary of State for the Home ' r ^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^ Wrtirwork. 

Department, to inquire into »nil report , f^j,;,;,, j^^ jg,,, ^^^ n, Samm 
upon certain miscellaneous dangerous -, — — .'„v = 



trades. (August 17.) 



(September 2.) 



Lead Compounds in Potteries.— Ee- 1 EXPLOSIVES (IGNITION OP CORDITE 
port to the Secretary of State for the aT MESSRS. KYNOCH'S FACTOBY). 

H'*??^ J'^IS'^"°,",l V.Th*"^! '^-^'"^^ Report to the Secretary of State for the 
M.p., F.H.C.P., Physician to the Royal , jj^^^ Department by Colonel A. Foid 
Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, upon q^ HerMajesty's Chief Inspector of E-- 
the Pottery Industry in FraTice. (fee- ' - ■ ■ ■ .... 

tembcr 28.) 

LUNACY (SCOTLAND). 
Forty-first Annual Report of t 
General Board of Commissioners 
Lunacy for Scotland. (August IV.) 

NAVY. 

Report to the Lords Commissioners of 

the Admiralty of the Committee on the 

training of Naval Medical Officers. 

(August 19.) 

IRISH LAND COMMISSION. 

Proceedings: Return for June 1899. 
(August 19.) 

Judicial Rents : Return for January 
1899. (August 19.) 

Judicial Rents : Return for February 
1899. (September 14.) 



I plosives, on the circumstances attending 
an ignition of cordite which occurred in 
the blending and packing house of the 
factory of Messrs. Kynoch, Limited, at 
Holchaven, Essex, on the 8th June, 1899, 
(Septenibcr 26.) 

LOCAL TAXATION (ROYAL COM- 
MISSION). 

Memoranda chiefly relating to the 
classification and incidence of Imperial 
and local taxes. (October 4.) 

The same were ordered to lie on \ha 

Table. 

POST OFFICE (TELEGRAPH MONEY 

ORDERS). 

A<lditional articles to the MoDey 

Order Convention of the 7th-14th <« 

October 1871, between the General Port 



45 



Elections, 



{17 October 1899} 



Elections. 



46 



Office of the United Kingdom of Great 
Britain and Ireland and the General Post 
Office of the Netherlands ; presented (by 
Command), and ordered to lie on the 
Table. 



SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE. 
Rules of the Supreme Court (October) 

WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT, 

1899. 

Rules, dated 1st of September, 1899. 

INDIA (LOANS RAISED IN ENGLAND). 

Return of all loans raised in England 
iinder the provisions of any Acts of Par- 
liament chargeable on the revenues of 
India outstanding at the commencement 
of the half year ended on the 30th Sep- 
tember, 1899, with the rates of interest 
and total amount payable thereon, etc. 

PRISONS (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1877. 

Rule made 'by the Secretary for Scot- 
land under the Fine or Imprisonment 
(Scotland and Ireland) Act, 1899. 

TRINIDAD. 

Additional Prison Rule relating to the 
employment of female prisoners. 

SAINT LUCIA. 

Regulation amending the Prison Rules 
in respect of the period during which shot 
drill may be performed. 

PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS, 1853-1891 
(CONDITIONAL LICENSES). 

Licenses granted to — 

I. Ada Bennett. 

II. Ada Lillian Sherlock. 

Convicts under detention in Aylesbury 
Prison, permitting the said Ada Bennett 
and Ada Lillian Sherlock to be at large 
on condition that they enter the Royal 
Victoria Home, Horfield, Bristol. 

FACTORY AND WORKSHOP (DIFFER- 
ENT MEAL HOURS) (FLAX, JUTE, 
AND HEMP FACTORIES). 

Order made by the Secretary of State 

for the Home Department, dated 6th Sep- 

^i^mber 1899, extending to textile fac- 



tories in which the material used is flax, 
jute, or hemp, the special exceptions with 
regard to meal hours contained in section 
52 of the Factory and Workshop Act, 
1878. 

Laid before the House (pursuant to 
Act), and ordered to lie on the Table. 

MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR 

BOARD. 

Accoimts for the year ended 1st July 
1899 ; Delivered (pursuant to Act), and 
ordered to lie on the Table. 

House adjourned at five minutes be- 
fore Seven of the clock, to 
Thursday next, a quarter past 
Four of the clock. 



HOUSE OF COMMONS. 



Tuesday, 17th October 1899. 



The House met at Two of the Clock. 

Message to attend the Lords Com- 
missioners by Black Rod. 

The House went ; and, having re- 
turned : — 

ELECTIONS. 

Ordered, That all Members who are 
returned for two or more places in any 
part of the United Kingdom do make 
their election for which of the places they 
will serve, within one week after it shall 
appear that there is no question upon the 
return for that place; and if anything 
shall come in question touching the 
return or election of any Member, he is 
to withdraw during the time the matter 
is in debate ; and that all Members re- 
turned upon double returns to withdraw 
till their returns are determined. 

Resolved, That no Peer of the Realm, 
except such Peers of Ireland as shall for 
the time being be actually elected, and 
shall not have declined to serve, for any 
county, city, or borough of Great Britain, 
hath any right to give his vote in the 
election of any Member to serve in 
Parliament. 



47 



Elections. 



{COMMONS} 



Eledions. 



48 



Motion made, and Question proposed, 
"That it is a high infringement of the 
liberties and privileges of the Commons 
of the United Kingdom for any Lord of 
Parliament, or other Peer or Prelate, 
not being a Peer of Ireland at the time 
elected, and not having declined to serve 
for any coimty, city, or borough of 
Great Britain, to concern himself in the 
election of Members to serve for the 
Commons in Parliament, except only 
any Peer of Ireland, at such elections in 
Great Britain respectively where such 
Peer shall appear as candidate, or by 
himself, or any others, be proposed to be 
elected ; or for any Lord Lieutenant or 
Governor of any county to avail himself 
of any authority derived from his com- 
mission, to influence the election of any 
Member to serve for the Commons in 
Parliament." — {Mr, A. J. Balfour,) 

Mr. J. LOWTHER (Kent, Thanet) : 
I desire to submit an Amendment with a 
view to confining the operation of this 
Sessional Order to the cases of Lord 
Lieutenants of Counties. It will not be 
necessary for me to detain the House for 
more than a very few moments. My 
right hon. friend the First Lord of the 
Treasury gave mo credit for very great 
consistency and persistency in connection 
with this matter. At the risk of forfeiting 
his good opinion I own at once that the 
fact whether Peers do or do not take 
part in elections is to me a matter of 
absolute indifference. Many years ago it 
may have been a matter of national im- 
portance, but it has now ceased to be 
so. There is, however, a question 
arising out of the Order to which 
it is impossible to attach too great import- 
ance, and that is whether it is to the credit 
and dignity of the House that it should 
go on affirming in so positive a manner a 
Resolution which it has neither the power 
nor the will to enforce. I need not trouble 
the House with precedents. I take it we 
are all on common ground when I say 
that all Prime Ministers on every side of 
politics have for the last quarter of a 
century ignored this Order. And perhaps 
I may be allowed to remind the House 
that since this Order was last passed it 
has been set at naught in a more persis- 
tent manner than ever. It was last passed 
on the 7th February in the present year, 
and before a week was over two Peers, 



occupjring a high position in their 
own neighbourhood, and upon dif- 
ferent sides of politics,, m two 
different counties, but on identi- 
cally the same day, set the Order at 
defiance. I once said that the Order was 
broken every day. I understated my 
case: it has been broken twice a day. 
Again, in a room under the very shadow 
of this House, practically within its pre- 
cincts, this Order was set at defiance by 
no less a person than the Lord High 
Chancellor of England, who, on tluit 
occasion — and this shows that the House 
is not in earnest in this matter — was 
moved into the chair by the Chancellor of 
the Exchequer and by the First Lord of 
the Admiralty at a meeting which was 
attended by many Privy Councillors and 
by no fewer than four Ministers of the 
Crown. I need make no further com- 
ment, although, in passing, I might point 
out how this example had been followed 
by the Duke of Devonshire and by a 
Bishop, whom I need not name. The fact 
remains that this Order }ias during the 
present calendar year been set at defiance 
by Ministers of the Crown in the House 
of Lords, aided and abetted and actiyely 
instigated by Cabinet Ministers sitting 
in the House of Commons. Surely then 
the House should not go on passine a 
Sessional Oi*der which is openly de&d, 
and which it has neither the power nor 
the desire to enforce. Without any of 
the laborious research with which my 
right hon. friend so generously credited 
me, I think I have been able to show that 
the Order is a farce and a sham, and, I 
venture to say, one discreditable to the 
House. I beg therefore to move to limit 
its operation to Lord Lieutenants of 
Counties. 

Mr. stanhope (Burnley) seconded 
the Amendment. 



Amendment proposed — 

"To leave ont the words from the weid 
'Kingdom/ in line 2, to the wend 'for,' ia 

line 8." — (Mr, James Lotcther.) 

Question put — "That the words pro- 
posed to be left out stand part of the 

Question." 

The House divided : — Ayes, 337; Noes^ 
76. (Division List, No. 1.) 



4^ 



Eledions, 



Allan, William (Gateshead) 
Arehdale, Edwajrd Mervyn 
Arnold, Alfred 
Amold-Forster, Hugh 0. 
Arrol, Sir William 
Asher, Alexander 
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John 
Bailej, James (Walworth) 
Baillie, Jas. £. B. (Inverness) 
Bainbridge, Emerson 
Baker, Sir John 
Baldwin, Alfred 
Balfonr, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Man.) 
Balfoiir,Rt Hon.G.W. (Leeds) 
Banbury, Frederick George 
Barnes, Frederic Gorell 
Barry, RtHn.A.H.S.-(Hunte) 
Bany, Sir Francis T. (Windsor 
Barton, Dunbar Plunket 
Beach, W. W. B. (Hants.) 
Beckett, Ernest William 
Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull 
Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe 
Bethell, Commander 
Bhownaegree, Sir M. M. 
BiddulphTMichael 
Bigwood, James 
Bin, Charles 
BiUson, Alfred 
Blakiston-Houston, John 
Blnndell, Colonel Henry 
Bond, Edward 
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Oruie 
Boscawen, Arthur Griffith- 
Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlx.) 
Brassey, Albert 
Broadhurst, Henry 
Brookfield, A. Montagu 
Brown, Alexander H. 
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James 
Bnllard, Sir Harry 
Burdett-Coutts, W. 
Burt, Thomas 
. Butcher, John George 
Buxten, Sydney Charles 
Caldwell, James 
Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin) 
Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H. 
Carlfie, William Walter 
Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson- 
Causton, Richard Kniffht 
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.) 
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. ) 
Cawley, Frederick 
Ca^rzer, Sir Charles William 
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich) 
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.) 
Chamberlain, RtHn. J.(Birm. 
Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc*r.) 
Channing, Francis Allston 
Charrington, Spencer 
Clarke, Sir EcT. (Plymouth) 
Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E. 
Cohen, Benjamin Louis 
Colston, Chas. Edw. H.Athole 
Colville, John 
Commins, Andrew 
Compton, Lord Alwyne 
Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth) 
Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow) 
Comwalli9,Fienne8 Stanley W. 
Courtney, Rt. Hon. Leonard H. 
Crilly, Daniel 



{17 October 1899} 

AYES. 

Crombie, John William 
Currie, Sir Donald 
Curzon, Viscount 
Dalziel, James Henry 
Davies, M. V. (Cardigan) 
Denny, Colonel 
Dewar, Arthur 

Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon 
Donkin, Richard Sim 
Dorington, Sir John Edw. 
Doughty, Geoi^e 
Douglas, Rt. ^n. A. Akers- 
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) 
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. 
Doxford, William Theodore 
Drase, Geoffrey 
Duckworth, James 
Dunn, Sir William 
Dyke,Rt.Hn.SirWilliam Hart 
Eldwards, Owen Morgan 
Elliot, Hon. A. Ridph Douglas 
Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan) 
Evans,SirFrancisH.(Soutlrton 
Fardell, Sir T. George 
Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn )9aw. 
Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith; 
Fereusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man. ) 
Field, Admiral (Eastbourne) 
Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne 
Firbank, Joseph Thomas 
Fisher, William Hayes 
Fison, Frederick William 
FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose- 
Fitzmauricc^ Lord Edmond 
Flannery, Sir Fortescue 
Fletcher. Sir Henry 
Flower, Ernest 
Folkestone, Viscoumt 
Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) 
Fowler, Kt. Hon. Sir Henry 
Garfit, William 
Gibbons, J. Lloyd 
Gibney, James 
Gilliat, John Saunders 
Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John 
Goddard, Daniel Ford 
Godson, Sir Augustus Freak. 

, Gold, Charles 
Goldsworthy, Major-General 
Gordon, Hon. John Edward 
Goschen, George J. (Sussex) 
Goulding, Edward Alfred 
Graham, Henry Robert 
Gray, Ernest (West Ham) 
Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs) 
Gretton, John 
Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) 
Griffith, Ellis J. 
Gull, Sir Cameron 
Gurdon,Sir William Brampton 
Hall, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles 
Halsey, Thomas Frederick 
Hanbury,Rt. Hon. Robert Wm. 
Hanson, Sir Reginald 
Hardy, Laurence 
Hare, Thomas Leigh 
Harwood, George 
Hayne, RtHon.CharlesSeale- 
Hazell, Walter 
Healy, Maurice (Cork) 
Healy, Thomas J. (Wexford) 

Heal v,Timothy M. (N. Louth) 
HedderwickTnomasCharlesH 



Elections. 



50 



Holder, Augustus 
Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H. 
Henderson, Alexander 
Hermon-Hodge, Rob. Trotter 
Hickman, Sir Alfred 
Hill,Rt. Hn. A. Staveley(Staffis. 
HUi, Arthur (Down, West) 
Hill, Sir EdwardStock(BristoI 
Hoare,EdwBrodie(Hampstead 
Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) 
Holland, Wm. H. (York,W.R.) 
Hornby, Sir William Henry 
Homiman, Frederick John 
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry 
Howard, Joseph 
Hozier,Hon. JamesHenryCecil 
Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn 
Hudson, George Bickersteth 
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick 
Jenkins, Sir John Jones 
Johnston, William (Belfast) 
Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex) 
JoUiffe, Hon. H. George 
Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea) 
Jordan, Jeremiah 
Kay-Shuttleworth,RtHn.SirU 
Kearley, Hudson £. 
Kemp, Greorge 
Kenyon, James 
Kenyon-Slaney, CoL William 
Keswick, William 
Kimber, Henry 
Kitson, Sir James 
Knowles, Lees 
Lafone, Alfred 
Langley, Batty 
Lawrence,Sir £.Dumine(Com 
Lawson, John Grant ( Yorks. ) 
Lea, Sir Thos. (Londonderry) 
Lecky, Rt. Hn. William E. H. 
Leese, Sir J. F. (Acerington) 
Lewis, John Herbert 
Llewelyn, Sir D.- (Swansea) 
Lloyd-George, David 
Loder, Gerald Walter E. 
Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) 
Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool) 
Lowe, Francis William 
Lowles, John 

Lowther,Rt. Hn. J.W.(CumVd) 
Loyd, Archie Kirkman 
Luobock, Rt. Hon. Sir John 
Lucas-Shadwell, William 
Macartney, W. G. Ellison 
Macdona, John Gumming 
Maclver, David (Liverpool) 
M* Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) 
M* Arthur, William (Cornwall) 
M'Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs.) 
M*Calmont,Col. J.(Antrim, E.) 
M*Crae, George 
M'Ewan, William 
M'lver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.) 
M'Killop, James 
Malcolm, Ian 

Manners, Lord Edward W. J. 
Marks, Henry Hananel 
Massey-Main waring, HnW.F. 
Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire) 
Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand 
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. 
Middlemore, J. Throgmcnrton 
Milton, Viscount 



51 



Elections, 



Milward, Colonel Victor 
Monk, Charles .James 
Monta^, Sir S. (Whitechapel) 
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy 
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) 
Moulton. John Fletcher 
Muntz, Philip A. 
Myers, William Henry 
Newark, Viscount 
Nicholson, William Graham 
Nicol, Donald Ninian 
Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford 
Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) 
Paulton, James Mellor 
Pease, H. Pike (DarliuLrton) 
Pease, J. A. (Northumbl'd) 
Philipps, John W^-nford 
Phillpotts, Captam Arthur 
Pickersgill, Edward Hare 
Pier point, Robert 
Pilkmgton, R. (Lancs,Newton 
Pilkington, SirG.A.(Lcs.S.W. 
Platt-Higffins, Frederick 
Plunkett, Rt. Hn. H. Curzon 
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp 
Price, Robert John 
Priestley, Sir W. (). (Edin.) 
Pryce- Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward 
Purvis, Robert 
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert 
Rankin, Sir James 
Renshaw, Charles Bine 
Rentoul, Jame.s Alexander 
Richardson, SirT. (Hartlep'l) 
Rickett, J. Compton 
Ridley,Rt. Hn. SirMatthew W. 
Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T. 
Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) 
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) 
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) 
Rothschild,Hon. LionelWalter 



{COMMONS} 

Round, James 
Runciman, Walter 
Ru8sell,Gen.F. S. (Cheltenham 
Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) 
Rutherford, John 
Ryder, John Herbert Dudley 
Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse) 
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) 
Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert 
Saunderson, Rt Hon Col. E. J. 
Savory, Sir Joseph 
Schwann, Charles E. 
Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard 
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W. 
Shorpe, William Edward T. 
Shaw, Charles Ed. (Stafford) 
Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) 
Simeon, Sir liarrington 
Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) 
Sinclair, Louis (Romford) 
SkcAves-Cox, Thomas 
Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) 
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) 
Soames, Arthur Wellesley 
Spencer, Ernest 
Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) 
Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset) 
Stanley, Sir H.M. (Lambeth) 
Stanley, Lord (Lancashire) 
Steadman, William Charles 
Stevenson, Francis S. 
Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart 
Stone, Sir Benjamin 
Strachey, Edward 
Stnitt, Hon. Charles Hedley 
Stuart, James (Shoreditch) 
Sturt, Hon. H. Napier 
Thomas, D. A. (Merthyr) 
Thorburn, Walter 
Thornton, Percy M. 
Tollemache, Henry James 



Electifmii 



5a 



Trevelyan, Charles Philips 
Tritton, Charles Ernest 
Valeniia, Viscount 
Vemej', Hon. R. Greville 
Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. 
Wallace, Robert 
Wanklyn, James Leslie 
Ward, Hon. Robert A. (Crewe> 
Warr, Augustus Frederick 
Webster, Sir Richard E. 
Weir, James Galloway 
Welby, Lieut-Col. A. C. E. 
Wentworth, Bruce C. Vemon- 
Wliitmore, Charles Algernon 
Williams, JohnCarvell (Notts.) 
Williams, J. Powell (Bimi. 
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord 
Wilson, Frederick W. (Norfk) 
Wilson, Henry J.(York,W.R.) 
Wilson,J.W.(Worcester9h,N.) 
Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) 
Wodehoa8e,Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath) 
Wolff, Gustav WUhelm 
Woodall, WUliam 
Woodhou8e,SirJ.T.(Hndd'r8fd 
Woods, Samuel 
Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- 
Wylie, Alexander 
Wyndham, George 
Wyvil, Marmadnke D'Arcy 
Yerburgh, Robert Armstronff 
Young, Comm'nd'r (Berks, £.) 
Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) 
Younger, William 
YoxaU, James Henry 



Tellers for the Ayes.— 
Sir William Walrond and 
Mr. Anstruther. 



NOES 



Abraham, Wni. (Cork, N.E.) 
Allen, W. (Newc. -under- Lyme) 
AUhusen, Augustus H. Eden 
Ambrose, Robert 
Austin. M. (Limerick, W.) 
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) 
Boulnois, Edmund 
Bowles,T. Gibson (King's Lynn 
Buchanan, Thos. Rybum 
Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgow) 
Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward 
Carvill, P. George Hamilton 
Clark, Dr. G.B.(Caithness-sh.) 
Cranborne, Viscount 
Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal) 
Dalbia^S Colonel Philip Hugh 
Dalkeith, Earl of 
Davitt, Michael 
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir diaries 
Dillon, John 
Donelan, Captain A. 
Doogan, P. (.'. 
Drucker, A. 

Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. 
Ellis, John Edward 
Farquharson, Dr. Roltert 
Fenwick, Charles 



Fox, Dr. Josculi Francis 
Galloway, William Johnson 
Gourley, Sir Ed wd. Temper ley 
Haldane, Richard Burden 
Hayden, John Patrick 
Heath, James 
Heaton, John Hcnniker 
Hogan, James Francis 
Howorth, Sir Henry Hoyle 
Hutton, John (Yorks. N.R.) 
Jacoby, James Alfred 
Jones, William (Camarvonsh. 
Kinloch,Sir John Geo. Smyth 
Labouchere, Henry 
Lambert, Georj^e 
Logan, John A\ illiam 
MacAleese, Daniel 
MacDonnell,Dr.M.A(Qu'n's C 
Maclean, James Mackenzie 
Maelure, Sir .John William 
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift 
M*Ghee, Richard 
M'Kenna, Reginald 
Maddison. Fred. 
Mad en, John Henry 
Mellor. Rt. lln. J.\V. (Yorks.) 
MilbankjSir Powlett Chas. Jn. 



Norton, Capt. Cecil William 
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) 
O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) 
Oldroyd, Mark 
O'Malley, WUliam 
Pirie, Duncan V. 
Priestley, Bri^ (Yorks.) 
Reckitt, Harold James 
Redmond, William (Clare) 
Reid, Sir Robert Threshie 
Richardson, J. (Durham, 8.E.) 
Sandys, Lieut. -CoL T. Mylea 
Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigli)> 
Smith, James Parker (L'n'rks) 
Souttar, Robinson 
Sullivan, Donal ( Westnieath) 
Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.> 
Ure, Alexander 
Wedderburn, Sir William 
Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L. 
W^ilson, Charles Henry (Hull) 
Wrightson, Thomas 



Tellers for the 
Mr. James Lovrther and Mr. 
Philip Stanhope. 



53 Parliamentary {17 October 1899} Papers (Recess), 54 

Main Question put, and agreed to. that no obstruction be permitted to 

hinder the passage of Members to and 

Sesolved, That it is a high infringe- from this House, and that no disorder be 

ment of the liberties and privileges of allowed in Westminster Hall, or in the 

the Commons of the United Kingdom for passages leading to this House, during 

any Lord of Parliament, or other Peer or the sitting of Parliament, and that there 

Prelate, not being a Peer of Ireland at the be no annoyance therein or thereabouts ;: 

time elected, and not having declined to and that the Serjeant-at-Arms attending 

serve for any county, city, or borough of this House do communicate this Order tO' 

Great Britain, to concern himself in the the Commissioners aforesaid, 
election of Members to serve for the 

Commons in Parliament, except only any VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS. 

Peer of Ireland, at such Elections in Ordered, That the Votes and Proceed- 

Great Bntam respectively where such • ^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ .^^^^^ ^^i g^st 

Peer shall appear as a candidate, or by ^^^g^^ ^ Mr. Speaker; and that he do 

himself, or any others, be proposed to be j^^^ ^j^^ printing thereof ; and that na 

elected; or for any Lord Lieutenant or ^^g^^ but such as he shall appoint do 

Governor of any county to avail him- presume to print the same, 
self of any authority derived from his 

Commission, to influence the election of PT?TVTTFrFS 

any Member to serve for the Commons in * _ . . 

Parliament. Ordered, That a Committee of Privi- 
leges be appointed. 

Eesolved, That if it shall appear that 

any person hath been elected or returned OUTLAWRIES BILL, 

a Member of this House, or endeavoured « Yot the more effectual preventing- 

so to be, by bribery, or any other corrupt Clandestine Outlawries," read the first 

practices, this House will proceed with time; to be read a second time, 
the utmost severity against all such 

persons as shall have been wilfully con- JOURNAL 

cemed in such bribery or other corrupt ^ , , mi . .i t i r xi.- 

practices. Ordered, That the Journal of this: 

^ ' House, from the end of the last Session 

WITNESSES ^0 ^^6 ®^^ ^^ ^^® present Session, with an 

Resolved, That if it shall appear that I"^®'^ *'»*"'«t°' ^^ P""'^" 

any person hath been tampering with any Ordered, That 500 Copies of the said 

witness, in respect of his evidence to be Journal and Index be printed by the 

given to this House, or any Committee appointment and under the direction of 

thereof, or directly or indirectly hath Sir Reginald Francis Douce Palgrave,. 

endeavoured to deter or hinder any per- K.C.B., the Clerk of this House. 

son from appearing or giving evidence, Ordered, That the said Journal and 

the same is declared to be a high crime j^^^^^ ^ -^^^^ ^ ^^^^ ^on ^ ahall 

or misdemeanor; and this House will 1,^ licensed by Mr. Speaker, and that na 

proceed with the utmost seventy against ^^^^^ .^^^^ ^j^ presume to print the 

such offender. ^^^ ^ 

Resolved, That if it shall appear that PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS (RECESS), 

any person hath given false evidence ^^ ^ ,j . p presented by 

in any case before this House, or any ^ j r t? aV :„L„ ^,„.,-«« +i,« 

Comi^ttee thereof, this House will pri- Command of Her Majesty during the 

J .., ,, i. 4. '4. -4. Recess, were delivered to the Librarian ot 

ceed with the utmost seventy against ^he House of Commons during the Recess,, 

such offender. pursuant to the Standing 8rder of the 

14th August 1896 :— 

METROPOLITAN POLICE. , n .1 Ar • t> vr n t 

^ J J ^, ^ ,, ^ . . c 1. South African Republic, — Oopy of 

Ordered, That the Commissioners of Correspondence relating to the Status of 

the Police of the Metropolis do take care ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ Republic. 

that, during the Session of Parliament, 

the passages through the streets leading 2. South African Republic,— Copy of 

to this House be kept free and open, and Further Correspondence relating to Pro- 



51 



El&iums. 



Milward, Colonel Victor 
Monk, Charles James 
Montagu, SirS. (\Vhitechai)el) 
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy 
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) 
Moulton. John Fletcher 
Muntz, Philip A. 
Myers, William Henry 
Newark, Viscount 
Nicholson, William Graham 
Nicol, Donald Ninian 
Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford 
Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) 
l^aulton, James Mellor 
Pease, H. I*ike ( Darlin|xton) 
Pease, J. A. (Northumbrd) 
Philipps, John Wvnford 
Phillpotts, Captam Arthur 
Pickersgill, Euward Hare 
Pierpouit, Ko1)ert 
Pilkmgton, K. (Ijiincs, Newton 
IHlkington, SirC; . A . { Lcs. S. W. 
Platt-Higgins, Frederick 
Plunkett, Kt. Hn. H. (.'urzon 
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp 
Price, Robert John 
Priestley. Sir W. (). (Edin.) 
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward 
Purvis, Robert 
Quilter, SirCuthbert 
Rankin, Sir James 
Renshaw, Charles liinc 
Rentoul, James Alexander 
Richardson, SirT. (Hartlep'l) 
Rickett, J. Compton 
Ridley, Rt. Hn.SirMatthewW. 
Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T. 
Roberts, John Br^^n (Eifion) 
Roberts, John H. (Denbiglis.) 
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) 
RothsoliildyHpn* Lionel Walter 



{COMMONS} 

Round, James 
Hunciman, Walter 
KusselljGen. F. S. (Cheltenham 
Kussell, T. W. (Tyrone) 
Rutherford, *Tohn 
Uyder, John Herbert Dudley 
Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse) 
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) 
Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert 
Saunderson, lU Hon Col. E. J. 
Savory, Sir Joi»eph 
Schwann, Charles E. 
Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard 
Scott, Sir S. (Jklarylebone, W. 
Sharpe, William Edward T. 
Shaw, Charles M. (Stafford) 
Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) 
Simeon, Sir liarrington 
Sinclair, ('apt. J. (Forfarshire) 
Sinclair, Louis (Romford) 
Skewos-Cox, Thomas 
Smith, Abel IL (Christchurch) 
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) 
Soames, Arthur Wellesley 
Spencer, Ernest 
Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) 
Stanley, Edward .1. (Somerset) 
Stanley, Sir H.^L (Lambeth) 
Stanley, Lord (Lancashire) 
Steadman, William Charles 
Stevenson, Francis S. 
Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart 
Stone, Sir Benjamin 
Strachey, Edward 
Stnitt, Hon. Charles Hedley 
Stuart, James (Shoreditch) 
Start, Hon. H. Napier 
Thomas, D. A. (Mcrthyr) 
Thorburn, Walter 
Thornton, Percy M. 
ToUemache, Henry James 



Ehfi 



nii.< 



52 



Trovelyan, Charles Philips 
Tritton, Charles Ernest 
Valentia, Viscount 
Vernev, Hon. R. Greville 
Vincent, Col. Sir C^ E. H. 
Wallace, liolxjrt 
Wanklyn, James Leslie 
Ward, Hon. liobert A. (Crewe) 
Warr, Au^^iistus Frederick 
Webster, Sir Ki(rhard E. 
Weir, James Galloway 
Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E. 
Wentworth, Bnice C. Vernon- 
^Vlutmo^e, Charles Aljjernon 
Williams, JohnCarvoU (^otts. ) 
Williams, J. Powell (Birm. 
Willoughby de Eresbj', Lord 
Wilson, Frederick W. (Norfk) 
Wilson, HenrvJ.(Vork,W.R.> 
Wilson, J. W. (\Vorceslersh,N. ) 
Wilson-To<ld, W. 11. (Yorks.) 
Wodehou8e,Kt.Hn. E.K.(Bath) 
Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm 
Woodall, William 
Woo<lhouse,SirJ.T.(Hudd'r8f'd 
Woods, Samuel 
Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- 
Wylie, Alexander 
Wyndham, George 
Wyvil, Marraaduke I)*Arcy 
Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong 
Young, Comm'ndT( Berks, E.) 
Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) 
Younger, William 
Yoxafl, James Henry 



Tellers fch: the Ayes.— 
Sir William Walrond and 
Mr. Anstnithcr. 



NOES 



Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.) 
Allen, W. (Newc.-under-Lyme) 
AUhnsen, Augustus H. Eden 
Ambrose, Ro&rt 
.Anatin, M. (Limerick, W.) 
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) 
Boulnois, Edmund 
Bowle8,T. Gibson (King's Lynn 
Baohanan, Thos. Rybum 
Cameron, Sir Clias. (Glasgow) 
Canon, Rt. Hon. Eilward 
Carvill, P. George Hamilton 
'Clark, Dr. G.B.(Caitlme8s.sh.) 
Cnmbome, Viscount 
Cnrran, Thoman B. (Donegal) 
Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh 
Dalkeith. Earl of 
.Davitt, Michael 
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles 
Dillon, John 
Donelan, Captain A. 
Dooffan, P. C. 
Dnicker, A. 

'Diuicoinbe, Hon. Hubert V. 
EUis, John Edward 
Aoquharson, Dr. Rol)ert 
'Fenwick, Charles 



Fox, Dr. Josei»h Francis 
Galloway, William Johnson 
Gourley," Sir Edwd.Temi)erley 
Haldane, Richanl Bui-don 
Hay den, John Patrick 
Heath, *James 
Heaton, John Henniker 
Hogan, James Francis 
How^orth, Sir Henry Hoyle 
Hutton, .lohn (Yorks. N.R.) 
Jacoby, James Alfreil 
Jones, William (Camar\-on8h. 
Kinloch,Sir .lohn Geo. Smyth 
Labouchere, Henry 
Lambert, George 
Logan, .lohn \\ illiam 
MacAleese, Daniel 
MacDonnell,Dr.M.A(Qu'n's C 
Maclean, James Mackenzie 
Maclure, Sir John William 
MacNeill, John (iordon Swift 
M*Ghee, Richard 
M'Kenna, Reginald 
Maddison, Fred. 
Maden, John Honrv 
Mellor, Bt. Hn. J.\V. (Yorks.) 
Milbank,Sir Powlett Chas. Jn. 



Norton, Capt. Ocil William 
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) 
O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) 
Oldroyd, Mark 
O'Malley, WillUm 
Pirie, Duncan V. 
Priestley, Briggjs (Yorks.) 
Reckitt, Harold James 
Redmond, William (i^'lare) 
Reid, Sir Robert Threshie 
Richardson, J. (Durham, S. E. ) 
Sandys, Lieut.-Col. T. Myles 
Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leiph) 
Smith, .James Parker (L'n'rks) 
Souttar, Robinson 
Sullivan, Donal ( Westmeath) 
Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.) 
I're, Alexander 
W€Ki<lerburn, Sir William 
Wharton, lU. Hon. John L. 
Wilson, Charhs Henry Olull) 
Wrightson, Thomas 

Tellers for the Noes — 
Mr. James Lowther and Mr. 
Philip Stanhoi>e. 



.67 



litturm 



{17 October 1899) 



Bepffts, iCr. 



the syHteni of Intei-mediate Education in 
Ireland, as established by the Inter- 
mediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1878, 
etc. ; Part I. (Minutea of Evidence). 

21. Intermediate Education (Ireland) 
(CommisBion), — Copy of Appendix to 
Final Report of the Commissioners 
appointed to inquire into and report upon 
the system of Intermediate EJducation in 
Ireland, as established by the Inter- 
mediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1878, 
etc ; Part II. (MiscellaneouB Documents). 

32. Irish Land Commission (Proceed- 
ings), ^Copy of Return of Proceedings of 
the Commission during the month of 
June 1899. 

23. Irish Land Commission (Judicial 
Rents), — Copy of Returns of Judicial 
Kenta fixed during the month of January 
1899. 

24. Irish Ijand Commission (Judicial 
Itents),— Copy of Returns of Judicial 
Rents fixed during the month of February 
1899. 

25. East India (Statistical Abstract), — 
Copy of Statistical Al«tract relating to 
British India from 1888-9 to 1897-8, 
Thirty- third Number. 

26. Lunacy (Scotland), — Copy of 
Forty-first Annual Report of the General 
Soard of Commissioners in Lunacy for 
Scotland. 

27. Prisons (Scotland),— Copy of Export 
on Prison Dietaries, by James Craufurd 
Dunlop, M.D. 

28. Tramway and Gas and Water 
Orders, — Copy of Report by the Board 
of Trade of their Proceedings under The 
Tramways Act, 1870, and The Gas and 
Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, during 
the Session of 1891(. 

29. Factory anil \Vork8hop (Dangerous 
Trades) (Committee),— Copy of Final 
Iteport of the Departmental Committee 
appointed by the Secretary of State for 
the Homo Department to inquire into 
and report upon certain ftliscellanooua 
Dangerous Trades. 

30. Mines and Quarrles.^Copy of 
General Report and Statistics tor the 
year 189«, Part 11., Labour; General 
Pi^port and Statistics relating to persons 
employed and Accidents at Mines and 



Quarries in the United Kingdom, and to 
enforcement of the Mines and 
Quarries Acts. 

31. Explosions (Holehaven, Essex), — 
Copy of Report by Colonel A. Ford, 
C.B., Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of 
Explosives, to the Eight Hon. the Secre- 
tary of State for the Home Department 
on the circumstances attending an ignition 
of Cordite which occurred in the blending, 
and packing house of the factory of 
Messrs. Kynoch, Limited, at Holehaven, 
" :x, on the 8th June 1899. 

i. Factory and Workshop (Lead Com- 
pounds in Pottery), — Copy of Report to. 
the Secretary of State for the Home 
Dopartment by Professor Thomas Oliver, 
M.D., F.RC.P., Physician to the Royal 
Infirmary, Neivcastle-upon-TjTie, upon 
the Pottery Industry in France. 

33. Mines and Quarries,. — Copy o£ 
General Report and Statistics for the 
year 1898, Part IIL, Output; General 
Report and Statistics relating to the 
Output and Value of the Minerals raised 
in the United Kingdom, the amount and 
value of the metals produced, and the 
exports and imports of Minerals. 

34. Naval Medical Officers (Training) 
(Committee),— Copy of Report to the 
Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty of 
the Committee on the Training of Naval 
Medical Officers. 

35. Local Taxation (Royal Commis- 
sion), — Copy of Memoranda chiefly re- 
lating to the Classification and Incidence 
of Imperial and Local Taxes. 

Ordered, That the said Papers do lie 
Upon the Table. 

RETURm, REPORTS, ETC. 



Estimate presented, of the Additiona 1 
Number of Men and of the Further 
Amount required in the year ending 31st 
March 1900, in consequence of the Mili- 
tary Situation in South Africa [by Com- 
mand] ; to lie upon the Table, and to be 
printed. [No. 1.] 



Copy presented, of Memorandum show- 
ing the principal heads of Ex]»enditure, 



^9 Address in Jnsicer to { COMMONS} 



Speech, 



60 



provided for in the Army Supplemen- 
tary Estimate in consequence of the Mili- 
tary Situation in South Africa [by Com- 
mand] ; to lie upon the Table. 

POST OFFICE (TELEGRAPH MONEY 
ORDERS) (HOLLAND). 

Copy presented, of Additional Articles 
to the Money Order Convention of the 
7th-Uth of October 1871 between the 
•General Post Office of Great Britain and 
Ireland and the General Post Office of the 
Netherlands [by Command] ; to lie upon 
the Table. 

EAST INDIA (LOANS RAISED IN 
ENGLAND). 

Copy presented, of Return of all Loans 
raised in England, chargeable on the 
Revenues of India, outstanding at the 
commencement of the half-year ending on 
the 30th September 1899, etc. [by Act] ; 
to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. 
[No. 2.J 

FACTORY AND WORKSHOP ACTS 
(DIFFERENT MEAL HOURS) (FLAX, 
JUTE, AND HEMP P^ACTORIES). 

Copy presented, of Order made by the 
Secretary of State for the Home Depart- 
ment, dated 6th September 1899, ex- 
tending to Textile Factories in which the 
material used is Flax, Jute, or Hemp the 
special exceptions with regard to Meal 
Hours contained in Section 52 of the 
Factory and Workshop Act, 1878 [by 
Act] ; to lie upon the Table. 

PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS (CONDI- 
TIONAL LICENCE). 

Copy preseuted, of Licence granted to 
Ada Bennett, a Convict under detention 
in Aylesbury Prison, permitting her to be 
-at large on condition that she enter the 
Royal Victoria Home, Horfield, Bristol 
[by Act] ; to lie upon the Table. 

PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS (CONDI- 
TIONAL LICENCE). 

Copy presented, of Licence granted to 
Ada Lillian Sherlock, a Convict under 
•detention in Aylesbury Prison, per- 
mittitig her to be at large on condition 
that she enter the Royal N'ictoria Home, 
Horfield, Bristol [by Actj ; to lie upon 
the Table. 

FINE OR IMPRISONMENT (SCOTLAND 
AND IRELAND) ACT, 1899 (RULES). 

Copy presented, of Rule made by the 
Secretary for Scotland, under the Fine or 



Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act, 
1899 [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table. 

COLONIAL PRODUCE OF SPIRITS 
(RESTRICTIONS). 

Return presented, relative thereto 
[Address 13th February 1899; MrJKF. 
Lamrence] ; to lie upon the Table, and to 
be print^. [No. 3.] 

PRISONS (^VEST INDIES) (ST. LUCIAi. 

Copy presented, of Regulation amend- 
ing the Prison Rules, in respect of the 
period during which Shot Drill may be 
performed [by Act]; to lie upon the 
Table. 

PRISONS (WEST INDIES) (TRINIDAD) 

Copy presented, of Additional Prison 
Rule relating to the Employment of 
Female Prisoners [by Act] ; to lie upon 
the Table. 

Papers laid upon the Table by the 
Clerk of the House : — 

1. Workmen's Compensation Act, 
1897 (Rules), — Copy of additional 
Rules made pursuant to Paragraph 
10 of the Second Schedule of the 
Act, and allowed by the Lord 
Chancellor, dated 1st September 
1899 [by Act]. 

2. Supreme Court (Rules), — Copy of 
Rules of the Supreme Court 
(October), 1899 [by Act]. 

3. Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, 
— Accounts of the Mersey Docks 
and Harbour Board for the year 
ending 1st July 1899 [by Act]. 



ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO HER 
MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SP££CH. 

First Day's Debate. 

Mr. speaker reported Her Majesty's 
Speech, and read it to the House. 

Captain SIR A. ACLAND-HOOD 

(Somerset, Wellington) : In making the 
customary appeal to the House for its 
indulgence, I feel that I make it 
with a more than ordinary claim, 
for never in the memory of the 
oldest Memher of this House have 
we been ciilled together under graver or 
more momentous circumstances. On the 



57 



RetmmSy 



{17 October 1899} 



Reports^ &c. 



58. 



the system of Intermediate Education in 
Ireland, as established by the Inter- 
mediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1878, 
etc. ; Part I. (Minutes of Evidence). 

21. Intermediate Education (Ireland) 
(Commission), — Copy of Appendix to 
Final Report of the Commissioners 
appointed to inquire into and report upon 
the system of Intermediate Education in 
Ireland, as established by the Inter- 
mediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1878, 
etc. ; Part 11. (Miscellaneous Documents). 

22. Irish Land Commission (Proceed- 
ings), — Copy of Return of Proceedings of 
the Commission during the month of 
June 1899. 

23. Irish Land Commission (Judicial 
Rents), — Copy of Returns of Judicial 
Rents fixed during the month of January 
1899. 

24. Irish Land Commission (Judicial 
Rents), — Copy of Returns of Judicial 
Rents fixed during the month of February 
1899. 

25. East India (Statistical Abstract), — 
Copy of Statistical Abstract relating to 
British India from 1888-9 to 1897-8, 
Thirty-third Number. 

26. Lunacy (Scotland), — Copy of 
Forty-first Annual Report of the General 
Board of Commissioners in Lunacy for 
Scotland. 

27. Prisons (Scotland), — Copy of Report 
on Prison Dietaries, by James Craufurd 
Dunlop, M.D. 

28. Tramway and Gas and Water 
Orders, — Copy of Report by the Board 
of Trade of their Proceedings under The 
Tramways Act, 1870, and The Gas and 
Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, during 
the Session of 1899. 

29. Factory and Workshop (Dangerous 
Trades) (Committee), — Copy of Final 
Report of the Departmental Committee 
appointed by the Secretary of State for 
the Home Department to inquire into 
and report upon certain Miscellaneous 
Dangerous Trades. 

30. Mines and Quarries, — Copy of 
General Report and Statistics for the 
year 1898, Part II., Labour; General 
Report and Statistics relating to persons 
employed and Accidents at Mines and 



Quarries in the United Kingdom, and to^ 
the enforcement of the Mines and 
Quarries Acts. 

31. Explosions (Holehaven, Essex), — 
Copy of Report by Colonel A. Ford, 
C.B., Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of 
Explosives, to the Right Hon. the Secre- 
tary of State for the Home Department 
on the circumstances attending an ignition 
of Cordite which occurred in tne blending 
and packing house of the factory of 
Messrs. Kynoch, Limited, at Holehaven^ 
Essex, on the 8th June 1899. 

32. Factory and Workshop (Lead Com- 
pounds in Pottery), — Copy of Report to- 
the Secretary of State for the Home 
Department by Professor Thomas Oliver, 
M.b., F.R.C.P., Physician to the Royal 
Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, upon 
the Pottery Industry in France. 

33. Mines and Quarries, — Copy of 
General Report and Statistics for the 
year 1898, Part III., Output; General 
Report and Statistics relating to the 
Output and Value of the Minerals raised 
in the United Kingdom, the amount and 
value of the metals produced, and the 
exports and imports of Minerals. 

34. Naval Medical Officers (Training) 
(Committee), — Copy of Report to the 
Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty of 
the Committee on the Training of Naval 
Medical Officers. 

35. Local Taxation (Royal Commis- 
sion), — Copy of Memoranda chiefly re- 
lating to the Classification and Incidence 
of Imperial and Local Taxes. 

Ordered, That the said Papers do lie 
upon the Table. 

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 



ARMY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 

1899-1900. 

Estimate presented, of the Additiona 1 
Number of Men and of the Further 
Amount required in the year ending 31st 
March 1900, in consequence of the Mili- 
tary Situation in South Africa [by Com- 
mand] ; to lie upon the Table, and to be 
printed. [No. 1.] 

ARMY (MEMORANDUM ON SUP- 
PLEMENTARY ESTIMATE). 

Copy presented, of Memorandum show- 
ing the principal heads of Expenditure 



63. 



Address in Ariswer to 



{COMMONS} 



the Qtieen^s Speech, 



64 



were asked, in making a fresh agreement, 
to deny ourselves for all time the right to 
see that not that agreement only, but all 
former Conventions should be faithfully 
carried out. No Grovernment could have 
been so blind as vo fall into such a trap. 
How far that proposal was made in good 
faith can best be judged from the belated 
G-reen Book in reply to the Colonial 
Secretary's despatch of May 10. In that 
Green Book the grievances of the Uit- 
landers are ridiculed, and their statements 
declared to be false. If that was really 
the opinion of the Government of the 
South African Republic, is it likely that 
at any time during the negotiations they 
ever contemplated giving the Uitlanders 
a real share of political power ? It was a 
thinly-veiled attempt on the part of the 
South African Republic to purchase their 
recognition as a sovereign State, with the 
ultimate rescission of our South African 
upremacy, at the price of a franchise, a 
price which they never had any real 
intention of paying. The fact is that the 
guiding principle of this country in deal- 
ing with South Africa is that of equal 
rights for all white men ; the guiding 
principle of the South African Republic 
is to retain all power in the 
hands of the Dutch race, and to 
deny it to all other races. So 
long as neither side is prepared to give 
way (and we certainly shall never give 
way), it is difficult to see how even the 
greatest patience and forbearance can 
lead to successful negotiations. It was im- 
possible for Her Majesty's Government 
-'to accept the conditions offered. But they 
offered to accept the proposed Franchise 
Bill without the obnoxious conditions, 
and at the same time suggested a con- 
ference to discuss other questions of dis- 
pute, and thereupon the Gx)vernment of 
the South African Republic withdrew the 
five years franchise proposal altogether. 
The situation wivs then this — The whole 
of South Africa was in a state of unrest, 
tmde wivs at a standstill, towns were 
deserted, tlio colony of Natal in alarm, 
anil it wjis our plain duty to stop such 
a condition once and for all. Her 
Majesty's (lovcrnmont informed the 
South African Hvpublio that they would 
formulate their own scheme of settlement, 
and at onoo took the proper steps to carry 
it out in case of rofusiil. Ihey have 
been blamed on the one hand because they 
have sent out reinfoivements, and on the 
other because thev ilid not send them out 

Captain Sir A. Acland-UoixL 



sooner or in larger numbers. I think the 
answer to both is that, while Her 
Majesty's Government were loth to take 
the extreme step of despatching an 
army corps as long as there was a reason- 
able chance of peace being maintained, 
they were bound in view of previous ex- 
perience to provide for the safety of 
Natal with a sufficient force. President 
Kruger did not wait for the scheme of 
the Government. He issued an ultimatum 
so gratuitously insolent, that he must 
have known it could have but one result. 
For the first time in the history of this 
country an English Sovereign has been 
peremptorily ordered by the transitory 
ruler of a subordinate State to remove 
her troops from her own dominions. The 
die is cast. President Kruger has, by his 
own act, removed the chance of peace. 
His ultimatum shows clearly how far he 
has acted in good faith in past negotia- 
tions, and his obstinate determination to 
pursue the old course of government by 
tyranny and oppression. The greatest 
condemnation of President Kruger is to 
be found in the fact that the whole people 
of this country, who, throughout this 
crisis, have hoped against hope for peace, 
have rallied to the support of the Grovern- 
ment at the present crisis, and in the 
splendid loyalty of our colonies, who have 
spontaneously offered their help in the 
cause of freedom. The brightest feature 
in all this sad business is the manner in 
which our colonies in all parts of the 
world have supported the mother country, 
and have shown their determination that 
the blessings of free institutions which 
they themselves enjoy shall be extended 
to their fellow countrymen in South 
Africa. It is the duty of tlie Govern- 
ment to use such an overwhelming force 
as will bring this unhappy war to an end 
as soon as possible. Both in the interests 
of humanity now and in the interests of 
racial feelings in the future we must hope 
the victory will be rapid and complete. 
This stniggle is principally for the estab- 
lishment of the great principle of equal 
rights, but there is an even greater 
question behind it which this war must 
settle. It is whether in future the para- 
mount power in South Africa is to be 
Great Britain or the Dutch Republic. 
To that question there can be but one 
answer. Our responsibilities in South 
Africa are tremendous ; we cannot and we 
will not shrink from them. Great 
Britain has spent her blood and treasure 



61 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Sj^h, 



62 



result of our deliberations will depend the 
future not only of South Africa, but of 
the British Empire, and I feel that a very 
serious responsibility rests on me in 
moving the Address in reply to the 
.gracious Speech from the Throne. Cir- 
cumstances have arisen which have ren- 
dered it necessary in the opinion of the 
Oovernment to call Parliament together 
to despatch a large force to South Africa 
— the largest and the best equipped force 
which has left these shores since the great 
wars. We are told that there is a party in 
this country who have been urging the 
Crovemment into war. If that be so, I, at 
all events, do not belong to it. If there 
is a section of this House who would most 
strongly oppose an unjust and unneces- 
sary wai*, it is the military Members, and 
•especially those among us who have seen 
active service. Those of us who have 
seen what war reallv is, who have seen 
•tjie horrors of a great battlefield, who 
have seen the ravages of disease more 
terrible than those of the sword, who 
have seen the sufferings not only of the 
defeated but of the victorious army, are 
the very last in this assembly to commit 
the country to war without very grave 
consideration. It is because we believe 
that the Government have throughout 
this difficult crisis acted with unexampled 
patience and forbearance, and have done 
all in their power to secure their ends by 
peaceful means, that we are determined, 
now that those peaceful means have un- 
happily failed, to support them in 
securing their ends at any cost. It is not 
my place to review at length the history 
of the dispute between the South African 
Republic and ourselves; the despatches 
iire in the hands of Members ; the ques- 
tion has occupied their minds for months 
past. The object which Her Majesty's 
Government had in view in the negotia- 
tions which the action of the Boers has so 
prematiu'cly cut short was not the 
destruction of the independence of the 
South African Republic, not the setting of 
Englishmen over Dutchmen, nor to effect 
merely the settlement of the questions of 
suzerainty and franchise. The object was 
to secure equal rights for all white men 
in South Africa, and to settle once and 
for all which Power is to be paramount in 
that continent. The sword has been 
thrust into our hands, and we cannot lay 
it down until we have established, cost 
what it may, the principle that British 
subjects, wherever they reside in South 



Africa, are not to be subjected to the 
badge of inferiority. It is said that the 
grievances of the Uitlanders are not real 
grievances, that they are manufactured by 
capitalists, and that, even if they were real, 
the Uitlanders are a useless and con- 
temptible mob, not worthy of our support. 
At any rate, the majority of them are 
British subjects, and it has never been 
the custom of this country to inquire into 
the private character of its subjects before 
securing them justice. The grievances of 
British subjects in the Transvaal are real 
grievances, such as no one in this House 
would submit to live under without pro- 
test, such as no Government worthy of 
the name can disregard. They are not 
manufactured by capitalists either here or 
in South Africa. Many of my con- 
stituents, farmers, tradesmen, artisans, 
have relations in the Transvaal. They 
are not capitalists, but hard-working, 
struggling men, and they one and all say 
that their position is intolerable. It may 
be asked. Why do they stay in the 
country 1 The answer is that they have 
made their homes and invested their 
savings there, trusting in the honour of 
Great Britain to see that the Conventions 
she' has signed are carried out, in spirit as 
well as in letter, and in her strong arm to 
secure them their rights. Her Majesty's 
Government endeavoured to secure them 
those rights by the ordinary constitutional 
means, that is, by obtaining for them a 
share in the government of the country, 
to enable them to work out their own 
salvation. In the negotiations which 
ensued it is difficult for a plain man to 
follow the twists and turns of Boer 
diplomacy, but there are two points that 
stand out prominently. The first is the 
proposal of Her Majesty's Government 
to refer the Franchise Bill, which had 
been hurriedly passed by the South 
African Republic, to a joint inquiry, 
a proposal which the Republic declined, 
probably because they knew the pro- 
visions of that Bill would not stand in- 
vestigation. The second is the offer made 
by the South African Republic of a five 
years franchise under certain conditions. 
Amongst those conditions were that Great 
Britain should abandon the suzerainty, 
and should bind herself never again to 
interfere in the internal affairs of the 
Transvaal. We were dealing with a 
State with which we have already had 
three Conventions, all of which have been 
flagrantly and openly violated. And we 

First Day, 



51 



Elections. 



Milward, Colonel Victor 
Monk, Charles James 
Montage, Sir S. (Whitechapel) 
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy 
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) 
Moulton. John Fletcher 
Muntz, Philip A. 
Myers, William Henry 
Newark, Viscount 
Nicholson, William Graham 
Nicol, Donald Ninian 
Northcote, Hn. Sir H. StaflTord 
Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham) 
Paulton, James Mellor 
Pease, H. Pike (Darlington) 
Pease, J. A. (Northumbl'd) 
Philipps, John Wynford 
Phillpotts, Captain Arthur 
Pickersgill, Euward Hare 
Pierpoint, Robert 
Pilkmgton, R. (Lanes, Newton 
PUkington, SirG.A.(Lcs.S.W. 
Platt-fiiggins, Frederick 
Plunkett, Rt. Hn. H. Curzon 
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp 
Price, Robert John 
Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.) 
Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward 
Purvis, Robert 
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert 
Rankin, Sir James 
Renshaw, Charles Bine 
Rentoul, James Alexander 
Richardson, SirT. (Hartlep'l) 
Rickett, J. Compton 
Ridley ,Rt. Hn. SirMatthew W. 
Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T. 
Roberts, John Br^m (Eifion) 
Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.) 
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) 
Rothschild,Hon. Lionel Walter 



{COMMONS} 

Round, James 
Runciman, Walter 
Ru8sell,Gen.F. S. (Cheltenham 
Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) 
Rutherford, John 
Ryder, John Herbert Dudley 
Samuel, Harry S.(Limehouse) 
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) 
Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert 
Saunderson, Rt Hon Col. E. J. 
Savory, Sir Joseph 
Schwann, Charles E. 
Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard 
Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W. 
Shorpe, William Edward T. 
Shaw, Charles Ed. (Stafford) 
Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) 
Simeon, Sir BarrinKton 
Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire) 
Sinclair, Louis (Romford) 
SkeAves-Cox, Thomas 
Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) 
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) 
Soames, Arthur Wellesley 
Spencer, Ernest 
Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) 
Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset) 
Stanley, Sir H.M. (Lambeth) 
Stanley, Lord (Lancashire) 
Steadman, William Charles 
Stevenson, Francis S. 
Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart 
Stone, Sir Benjamin 
Strachey, Edward 
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley 
Stuart, James (Shoreditch) 
Sturt, Hon. H. Napier 
Thomas, D. A. (Merthyr) 
Thorburn, Walter 
Thornton, Percy M. 
ToUemache, Henry James 



ElectioTifi 



52 



Trevelyan, Charles Philips 
Tritton, Charles Ernest 
Valencia, Viscount 
Vemey, Hon. R. Greville 
Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. 
Wallace, Robert 
Wanklyn, James Leslie 
Ward, Hon. Robert A. (Crewe> 
Warr, Augustus Frederick 
Webster, Sir Richard E. 
Weir, James Galloway 
Welby, Lieut-Col. A. C. E. 
Wentworth, Bruce C. Vemon- 
Whitmore, Charles Algernon 
Williams, JohnCarvell (Notts.) 
Williams, J. Powell (Birm. 
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord 
Wilson, Frederick W. (Norfk) 
Wilson, Henry J.(York,W.R.) 
Wilson, J. W. ( Worcestersh,N. ) 
Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.) 
WodehouscRt. Hn. E.R. (Bath) 
Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm 
WoodaU, WUliam 
Woodhou8e,SirJ.T.(Hudd'r8f d 
Woods, Samuel 
Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart- 
Wylie, Alexander 
Wyndham, George 
Wyvil, Marmaduke D*Arcy 
Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong 
Young, Comm'nd'r (Berks, E.) 
Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) 
Younger, William 
Yoxafi, James Henry 



Tellers for the Ayes.— 
Sir William Walrond and 
Mr. Anstnither. 



NOES 



Abraham, Will. (Cork, N.E.) 
Allen, W. (Newc.-under-Lyme) 
Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden 
Ambrose, Robert 
Austin, M. (Limerick, W.) 
Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire) 
Boulnois, Edmund 
Bowles, T.Gibson (King's Lynn 
Buchanan, Thos. Ryburn 
Cameron, Sir Chas. (Glasgow) 
Carson, Rt. Hon. Edward 
Carvill, P. George Hamilton 
Clark, Dr. G .B. (Caithness- sh. ) 
Cranborne, Viscount 
Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal) 
Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh 
Dalkeith, Earl of 
Davitt, Michael 
Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles 
Dillon, John 
Donelan, Captain A. 
Doogan, P. C. 
Drucker, A. 

Puncombe, Hon. Hubert V. 
Ellis, John Edward 
Farquharson, Dr. Robert 
Fenwick, Charles 



Fox, Dr. Joseph Francis 
Galloway, William Johnson 
Gourley, Sir Edwd.Temperley 
Haldane, Richard Burdon 
Hayden, John Patrick 
Heath, James 
Heaton, John Henniker 
Hogan, James Francis 
Howorth, Sir Henry Hoyle 
Hutton, John (Yorks. N.R.) 
Jacoby, James Alfred 
Jones, William (Camar\*onsh. 
Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth 
Labouchere, Henry 
Lambert, George 
Logan, John William 
MacAleese, Daniel 
MacDonnell,Dr.M.A(QuVs C 
Maclean, James Mackenzie 
Maclure, Sir John William 
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift 
M*Ghee, Richard 
M'Kenna, Reginald 
Maddison, Fred. 
Maden, John Henry 
Mellor. Rt. Hn. J. W. (Yorks.) 
MilbankjSir Powlett Chas. Jn. i 



Norton, Capt. Cecil William 
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) 
O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal) 
Oldroyd, Mark 
O'Malley, William 
Pirie, Duncan V. 
Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.) 
Reckitt, Harold James 
Redmond, William (Clare) 
Reid, Sir Robert Threshie 
Richardson, J. (Durham, S.E.) 
Sandys, Lieut. -Col. T. Myles 
Scott, Chas. Prestwich(Leigh>» 
Smith, James Parker (L'n'rks) 
Souttar, Robinson 
Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) 
Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.^^ 
Ure, Alexander 
Wedderbum, Sir William 
Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L. 
Wilson, Charles Henry (Hull) 
Wrightson, Thomas 

Tellers for the Noes — 
Mr. James Lowther and Mr. 
Philip Stanhope. 



53 Parlia7)ieTdary {17 October 1899} Papers {Recess), 54 

Main Question put, and agreed to. that no obstruction be permitted to 

hinder the passage of Members to and 

Sesolved, That it is a high infringe- from this House, and that no disorder be 

ment of the liberties and privileges of allowed in Westminster Hall, or in the 

the Commons of the United Kingdom for passages leading to this House, during 

any Lord of Parliament, or other Peer or the sitting of Parliament, and that there 

Prelate, not being a Peer of Ireland at the be no annoyance therein or thereabouts ;: 

time elected, and not having declined to and that the Serjeant-at-Arms attending 

serve for any county, city, or borough of this House do communicate this Order tO' 

Great Britain, to concern himself in the the Commissioners aforesaid, 
election of Members to serve for the 

Commons in Parliament, except only any VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS. 

Peer of Ireland, at such Elections in Ordered, That the Votes and Proceed- 

Great Bntam respectively where such • ^^ ^^^^ jj^^^^ ^^ • ^^^^ being first 

Peer shall appear as a candidate or by perused by Mr. Speaker ; and that he do 
himself, or any others, be proposed to be j^.^ ^^^ printing thereof ; and that na 

elected; or for any Lord Lieutenant or ^^g^^ but such as he shall appoint do 

Governor of any county to avail him- presume to print the same, 
self of any authority derived from his 

Commission, to influence the election of PRTviTFrFS 

any Member to serve for the Commons in F v L Lf s. 

Parliament. Ordered, That a Committee of Privi- 

leges be appointed. 

Resolved, That if it shall appear that 
any person hath been elected or returned OUTLAWRIES BILL, 

a Member of this House, or endeavoured <* For the more effectual preventing- 

so to be, by bribery, or any other corrupt Clandestine Outlawries," read the first 

practices, this House will proceed with time ; to be read a second time, 
the utmost severity against all such 

persons as shall have been wilfully con- JOURNAL 

cerned in such bribery or other corrupt ^ , ^ rT^^ i t i r xi_ • 

practices. Ordered, That the Journal of this: 

^ * House, from the end of the last Session 

WITNESSES ^^ ^b® ®^^ ^^ ^^® present Session, with an 

Resolved, That if it shall appear that I'"^^'^ t*'*''"«^°> ^« P""*«<^- 
any person hath been tampering with any Ordered, That 500 Copies of the said 

witness, in respect of his evidence to be Journal and Index be printed by the 

given to this House, or any Committee appointment and under the direction of 

thereof, or directly or indBrectly hath Sir Reginald Francis Douce Palgrave,. 

endeavoured to deter or hinder any per- K.C.B., the Clerk of this House. 

son from appearing or giving evidence. Ordered, That the said Journal and 

the same is declared to be a^igh cnme j^^^^ ^^ .^^^^ ^ ^^^^ ^^^^^ ^ g^^H 

or misdemeanor; and this House will fc^ licensed by Mr. Speaker, and that no 

proceed with the utmost seventy against ^^^^^ J j^ ^^^^^ ^ ^nt the 

such otiender. „«^« 

same. 

Resolved, That if it shall appear that PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS (RECESS), 
any person hath given false evidence ^ . p presented by 

in any case before this House, or any ^ j r x? a t :«!,4.5 ^„„;«« ful 

Committee thereof, this House will pro- Command of Her Majesty during the 

J .. , , , ,^ . -. ^ . Recess, were delivered to the Librarian of 

ceed with the utmost seventy against ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ Commons during the Recess,. 

SUCH oHenaer. pursuant to the Standing Oi-der of the 

14th August 1896 :— 

METROPOLITAN POLICE. , c .,. . r • t> ui- n r 

rv 1 1 rru ^ xu n r 1- South African Repubhc, — Copy of 

Onlered, That the Commissioners of Correspondence relating to the Status of 

the Police of the Metropolis do take care , ^^^ ^^^^^^ ^j^can Republic. 

that, during the Session of Parliament, 1 



the passages through the streets leadin 
to this House be kept free and open, an 



2. South African Republic,— Copy of 
Further Correspondence relating to Pro- 



56 Farliameniary (COMMONS} 

pOBed Political Beforma in the South 
African Republic. 

3. South African Republic, — Copy of 
•"urther Con ' ' ' • " •■ 

tical Affairs 
public. 



Papers {Becess). 56 

14. Venezuela (No. 4, 1899),— Copy of 
Case of the United States of Venezuela 
before the Tribunal of Arbitration to 

convene at Paris under the Treaty con- 



the South African Be- 



S^Tff^"^'ii*"!S,.ft'*4fl!^ ^S ' "^'"^^ at Washington on the 2nd February 
n«. o.™ .n ^ o ,.t nnor, B. 1897 betv-gen iRr Britannic Majestyand 

the United States of Venezuela respect- 
4. South African Republic,— Copy of '"S the Settlement of the Boundary be- 



tween British Ouiana and the United 
States of Venezuela; Vol. 1. 

15. Venezuela (No. 5, 1899),— Copy of 



Further Correspondence relating to Poli 
tieal Affairs in the South African Re- 
public. 

5. Nigeria, — Copy of Correspondence j Counter Case of the Unite<i States of 
relating to the Benin Territories Expedi- | Venezuela before the Tribunal of Arbi- 
tration to convene at Paris under the 
Treaty concluded at Washington on the 
2nd February 1897, between Her Britan- 



6. Contagious Diseases Ordinancee 



(ColonieB),- Copy of Correspondence re- I nic Majesty and the United States of 
garding the Measures to be adopted for I Venezuela respecting the Settlement of 
checking the spread of Venereal Disease the Boundary between British Guiana 
in Ceylon, Hong Kong, and the Straits and the United States of Venezuela ; 



7. Colonial Reports (Annual),— Copies ! jg. Venezuela (No. 6, 1899),— Copy of 
of Reports Nos. 266 (Leeward Islands, I printed Argument on behalf of the 
Annual Report Jor 1898), 267 (Saint United States of Venezuela before the 



Lucia, Annual Report for ! i 

^Fiji, Annual Report for 1898), _.. 

(Turks and Caicos Islands, Annual Report 



^ Tribunal of Arbitration constituted under 
the Treaty concluded at Washington 
the 2nd February 1897, between Her 



for 1898), 270 (Malta, Annual Report for BriUnnic Majesty and the United States 

1898), 271 (Gold Coast, Annual Report of Venezuela respecting the Settlement of 

for 1898), 272 (Tnnidad, Annual Report the Boundary between British Guiana 

for 1898), 273 (Sierra Leone, Annual ^nd the United States of Venezuela. 



Report for 1898), and 274 (Ceylon, 
Annual Report for 1898). 

8. Straits Settlements (Federated Malay 
States),- Copy of Reports on the Fede- 
rated Malay States for 1898. 

9. Trade Reports (Annual Series), — 
Copies of Diplomatic and Consular Re- 
ports, Annual Series, Nos. 2329 to 2361. 

10. Trade Reports (Miscellaneous 
Series),- -Copies of Diplomatic and Con- 
sular lieports, Miscellaneous Series, Nos. 
Ji09 to 615, 

11. Africa(No. 8,1899),— Copy of Cor- 
respondence respecting the Status of 
Slavery in East Africa and the Islands of 
jSanzibar and Pomba. 

12. Africa (No. 9, 1899),— Copy of 
Report by Lieutenant-Colonel Macdonald, 
R.E., of his Expedition from the Uganda 
Protectorate, 3rd Way 1898 to 5th 
March 1899. 

13. Samoa (No. 1, 1899),— Copy of , 
Correspondence respecting the Affairs of ' Final Report 
Samoa. Report of the Joint Commission. | appointed to inquire into and report upon 



17. Treaty Series (No. 16, 1899),— 
Copy of Convention between the United 
Kii^om and Guatemala relative to 
Trade Marks, Signed at Guatemala, 
20th July 1898. Ratifications exchanged 
at Guatemala, 28th July 1899. 

18. Treaty Series (No. 17, 1899),— 
Copy of Convention between the United 
Kingdom and Belgium relative to the 
Remittance of Money Orders by Tele- 
graph between the two Countries. Signed 
at London, 15th September 1899. Rati- 
fications exchanged at London, 29th 
September, 1899. 

19. Intermediate Education (Ireland) 
(Commission), — Copy of Final Rmorb of 
the Commissioners appointed to inquire 
into and report upon the system of 
Intermediate Education in Ireland, as 
established by the Intermediate Education 
(Ireland) Act, 1878, etc. 

20. Intermediate Education (Ireland) 
(Commission), — Copy of Appendix to 
"' ■ ' ■' CommisaionerB 



57 



Returns, 



{17 October 1899} 



Reports, dec. 



58 



the system of Intermediate Education in 
Ireland, as established by the Inter- 
mediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1878, 
etc. ; Part I. (Minutes of Evidence). 

21. Intermediate Education (Ireland) 
(Conmiission), — Copy of Appendix to 
Final Report of the Commissioners 
appointed to inquire into and report upon 
the system of Intermediate Education in 
Ireland, as established by the Inter- 
mediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1878, 
etc. ; Part II. (Miscellaneous Documents). 

22. Irish Land Commission (Proceed- 
ings), — Copy of Return of Proceedings of 
the Commission during the month of 
June 1899. 

23. Irish Land Commission (Judicial 
Rents), — Copy of Returns of Judicial 
Rents fixed during the month of January 
1899. 

24. Irish Land Commission (Judicial 
Rents), — Copy of Returns of Judicial 
Rents fixed during the month of February 
1899. 

25. East India (Statistical Abstract), — 
Copy of Statistical Abstract relating to 
British India from 1888-9 to 1897-8, 
Thirty-third Number. 

26. Lunacy (Scotland), — Copy of 
Forty-first Annual Report of the General 
Board of Commissioners in Lunacy for 
Scotland. 

27. Prisons (Scotland), — Copy of Report 
on Prison Dietaries, by James Craufurd 
Dun lop, M.D. 

28. Tramway and Gas and Water 
Orders, — Copy of Report by the Board 
of Trade of their Proceedings under The 
Tramways Act, 1870, and The Gas and 
Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, during 
the Session of 1899. 

29. Factory and Workshop (Dangerous 
Trades) (Committee), — Copy of Final 
Report of the Departmental Committee 
appointed by the Secretary of State for 
the Home Department to inquire into 
and report upon certain Miscellaneous 
Dangerous Trades. 

30. Mines and Quarries, — Copy of 
General Report and Statistics for the 
year 1898, Part II., Labour; Greneral 
Report and Statistics relating to persons 
employed and Accidents at Mines and 



Quarries in the United Kingdom, and to 
the enforcement of the Mines and 
Quarries Acts. 

31. Explosions (Holehaven, Essex), — 
Copy of Report by Colonel A. Ford, 
C.B., Her Majesty^s Chief Inspector of 
Explosives, to the Right Hon. the Secre- 
tary of State for the Home Department 
on the circumstances attending an ignition 
of Cordite which occurred in the blending 
and packing house of the factory of 
Messrs. Kjmoch, Limited, at Holehaven^ 
Essex, on the 8th June 1899. 

32. Factory and Workshop (Lead Com- 
pounds in Pottery), — Copy of Report to 
the Secretary of State for the Home 
Department by Professor Thomas Oliver, 
M.D., F.R.C.P., Physician to the Royal 
Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-T^iie, upon 
the Pottery Industry in France. 

33. Mines and Quarries, — Copy of 
General Report and Statistics for the 
year 1898, Part III., Output; General 
Report and Statistics relating to the 
Output and Value of the Minerals raised 
in the United Kingdom, the amount and 
value of the metals produced, and the 
exports and imports of Minerals. 

34. Naval Medical Officers (Training) 
(Committee), — Copy of Report to the 
Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty of 
the Committee on the Training of Naval 
Medical Officers. 

35. Local Taxation (Royal Commis- 
sion), — Copy of Memoranda chiefly re- 
lating to the Classification and Incidence 
of Imperial and Local Taxes. 

Ordered, That the said Papers do lie 
upon the Table. 

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC, 



ARMY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE, 

1899-1900. 

Estimate presented, of the Additiona 1 
Number of Men and of the Further 
Amount required in the year ending 31st 
March 1900, in consequence of the Mili- 
tary Situation in South Africa [by Com- 
mand] ; to lie upon the Table, and to be 
printed. [No. 1.] 

ARMY (MEMORANDUM ON SUP- 
PLEMENTARY ESTIMATE). 

Copy presented, of Memorandum show- 
ing the principal heads of Expenditure 



"59 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} 



the Queen^s Speech. 



60 



provided for in the Army Supplemen- 
tary Estimate in consequence of the Mili- 
tary Situation in South Africa [by Com- 
mand] ; to lie upon the Table. 

POST OFFICE (TELEGRAPH MONEY 
ORDERS) (HOLLAND). 

Copy presented, of Additional Articles 
to the Money Order Convention of the 
7th-14th of October 1871 between the 
•General Post Office of Great Britain and 
Ireland and the General Post Office of the 
Netherlands [by Command] ; to lie upon 
the Table. 

EAST INDIA (LOANS RAISED IN 
ENGLAND). 

Copy presented, of Return of all Loans 

raised in England, chargeable on the 

Revenues of India, outstanding at the 

commencement of the half-year ending on 

the 30th September 1899, etc. [by Act]; 

to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. 

. [No. 2.] 

PACTORY AND WORKSHOP ACTS 
(DIFFERENT MEAL HOURS) (FLAX, 
JUTE, AND HEMP FACTORIES). 

Copy presented, of Order made by the 
Secretary of State for the Home Depart- 
ment, dated 6th September 1899, ex- 
tending to Textile Factories in which the 
material used is Flax, Jute, or Hemp the 
special exceptions with regard to Meal 
Hours contained in Section 52 of the 
Factory and Workshop Act, 1878 [by 
Act] ; to lie upon the Table. 

PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS (CONDI- 
TIONAL LICENCE). 

Copy presented^ of Licence granted to 
Ada Bennett, a Convict under detention 
in Aylesbury Prison, permitting her to be 
iit large on condition that she enter the 
Royal Victoria Home, Horfield, Bristol 
;[by Act] ; to lie upon the Table. 

PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS (CONDI- 
TIONAL LICENCE). 

Copy presented, of Licence granted to 
Ada Lillian Sherlock, a Convict under 
•detention in Aylesbury Prison, per- 
mitting her to be at large on condition 
that she enter the Royal Victoria Home, 
Horfield, Bristol [by Act] ; to lie upon 
the Table. 

FINE OR IMPRISONMENT (SCOTLAND 
AND IRELAND) ACT, 1899 (RULES). 

Copy presented, of Rule made by the 
Secretary for Scotland, under the Fine or 



Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act, 
1899 [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table. 

COLONIAL PRODUCE OF SPIRITS 
(RESTRICTIONS). 

Return presented, relative thereto 
[Address 13th February 1899; MrJV.F. 
Lawrence] ; to lie upon the Table, and to 
be printed. [No. 3.] 

PRISONS (WEST INDIES) (ST. LUCIAi. 

Copy presented, of Regulation amend- 
ing the Prison Rules, in respect of the 
period during which Shot Drill may be 
performed [by Act]; to lie upon the 
Table. 

PRISONS (WEST INDIES) (TRINIDAD) 

Copy presented, of Additional Prison 
Rule relating to the Employment of 
Female Prisoners [by Act] ; to lie upon 
the Table. 

Papers laid upon the Table by the 
Clerk of the House : — 

1. Workmen's Compensation Act, 
1897 (Rules), — Copy of additional 
Rules made pursuant to Paragraph 
10 of the Second Schedule of the 
Act, and allowed by the Lord 
Chancellor, dated 1st September 
1899 [by Act]. 

2. Supreme Court (Rules), — Copy of 
Rules of the Supreme Court 
(October), 1899 [by Act]. 

3. Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, 
— Accounts of the Mersey Docks 
and Harbour Board for the year 
ending 1st July 1899 [by Act]. 



ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO HER 
MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH. 

First Day's Debate. 

Mr. SPEAKER reported Her Majesty's 
Speech, and read it to the House. 

Captain SIR A. ACLAND-HOOD 
(Somerset, Wellington) : In making the 
customary appeal to the House for its 
indulgence, I feel that I make it 
with a more than ordinary claim, 
for never in the memory of the 
oldest Member of this House have 
we been called together under graver or 
more momentous circumstances. On the 



^1 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's S^ch. 



62 



result of our deliberations will depend the 
future not only of South Africa, bub of 
the British Empire, and I feel that a very 
serious responsibility rests on me in 
moving the Address in reply to the 
^acious Speech from the Throne. Cir- 
cumstances have arisen which have ren- 
dered it necessary in the opinion of the 
Government to call Parliament together 
to despatch a large force to South Africa 
— the largest and the best equipped force 
which has left these shores since the great 
wars. We are told that there is a party in 
this country who have been urging the 
Government into war. If that be so, I, at 
all events, do not belong to it. If there 
is a section of this House who would most 
strongly oppose an unjust and unneces- 
sary war, it is the military Members, and 
especially those among us who have seen 
active service. Those of us who have 
48een what war reallv is, who have seen 
tjie horrors of a great battlefield, who 
have seen the ravages of disease more 
terrible than those of the sword, who 
have seen the sufferings not only of the 
defeated but of the victorious army, are 
the very last in this assembly to commit 
the country to war without very grave 
consideration. It is because we believe 
that the Government have throughout 
this difficult crisis acted with unexampled 
patience and forbearance, and have done 
all in their power bo secure their ends by 
peaceful means, that we are determined, 
now that those peaceful means have un- 
happily failed, to support them in 
securing their ends at any cost. It is not 
my place to review at length the history 
of the dispute between the South African 
Eepublic and ourselves; the despatches 
^re in the hands of Members ; the ques- 
tion has occupied their minds for months 
past. The object which Her Majesty's 
Government had in view in the negotia- 
tions which the action of the Boers has so 
prematurely cut short was not the 
destruction of the independence of the 
South African Republic, not the setting of 
Englishmen over Dutchmen, nor to effect 
merely the settlement of the questions of 
suzerainty and franchise. The object was 
to secure equal rights for all white men 
in South Africa, and to settle once and 
for all which Power is to be paramount in 
that continenb. The sword has been 
thrust into our hands, and we cannot lay 
it down until we have established, cost 
what it may, the principle that British 
subjects, wherever they reside in South 



Africa, are not to be subjected to the 
badge of inferiority. It is said that the 
grievances of the Uitlanders are not real 
grievances, that they are manufactured by 
capitalists, and that, even if they were real, 
the Uitlanders are a useless and con- 
temptible mob, not worthy of our support. 
At any rate, the majority of them are 
British subjects, and it has never been 
the custom of this country to inquire into 
the private character of its subjects before 
securing them justice. The grievances of 
British subjects in the Transvaal are real 
grievances, such as no one in this House 
would submit to live under without pro- 
test, such as no Government worbhy of 
the name can disregard. They are not 
manufactured by capitalists either here or 
in South Africa. Many of my con- 
stituents, farmers, tradesmen, artisans, 
have relations in the Transvaal. They 
are not capitalists, but h^d-working, 
struggling men, and they one and all say 
that their position is intolerable. It may 
be asked. Why do they stay in the 
country ? The answer is that they have 
made their homes and invested their 
savings there, trusting in the honour of 
Great Britain to see that the Conventions 
she' has signed are carried out, in spirit as 
well as in letter, and in her strong arm to 
secure them their rights. Her Majesty's 
Government endeavoured to secure them 
those rights by the ordinary constitutional 
means, that is, by obtaining for them a 
share in the government of the country, 
to enable them to work out their own 
salvation. In the negotiations which 
ensued it is difficult for a plain man to 
follow the twists and turns of Boer 
diplomacy, but there are two points that 
stand out prominently. The first is the 
proposal of Her Majesty's Government 
to refer the Franchise Bill, which had 
been hurriedly passed by the South 
African Republic, to a joint inquiry, 
a proposal which the Republic declined, 
probably because they knew the pro- 
visions of that Bill would not stand in- 
vestigation. The second is the offer made 
by the South African Republic of a five 
years franchise under certain conditions. 
Amongst those conditions were that Great 
Britain should abandon the suzerainty, 
and should bind herself never again to 
interfere in the internal affairs of the 
Transvaal. We were dealing with a 
State with which we have already had 
three Conventions, all of which have been 
flagrantly and openly violated. And we 

First Day, 



75 



J (Id r ess in Answer to 



{COMMONS} 



the Queen\<i Speech. 



76 



engaged, if I may be allowed to use a 
very homely expression, in a game of 
bluff. Now, a game of bluff is not a very 
worthy game for a great country at the 
best. It is an impossible game on so 
large a scale as this where secrecy cannot 
be maintained ; and it has this disadvan- 
tage and danger, that you cannot stop 
short in it just where you like, and it may 
land you in a war which you neither 
desire nor intend; and of all people in 
the world against whom such a game 
could not be played with success I should 
select the I)utch, and, above all, the old^ 
fashioned I>utch in* the Cape of Good 
Hope. The Boers have, like all of us, 
some good qualities and a good many bad 
ones, and among their qualities which 
hon. Members may class as good 
or bad according to their fancy, 
they are stubborn, they are self- 
sufticierit, they are unimpressionable, 
they are shrewd, and they are brave. 
\Mien, therefore, they heard, week after 
week, with somewhat ostentatious an- 
nouncement, that a further detachment 
of troops Wiis under orders for service at 
the Cape, and when in other ways it was 
made clear to them that we were really 
intending to fight, the result, the natural 
result, would be to irritate them and to 
increase the suspicions which they not 
unnaturally entertained after all these 
years, and which it ought rather to 
have been our duty to endeavour to re- 
move. But they were not in the least 
degree intimidated. The same observa- 
tion applies to certain speeches which 
were delivered and to certain despatches 
which were published — I do not say des- 
patches which were written, because those 
to which 1 refer, although they used some 
rhetorical language not customary in a 
solemn despatch, yet were within the com- 
pass of the reasons in the minds of those who 
wrote them — l)ut despatches which were 
published at a time and with a promptitude 
which showed a desire to create an effect 
upon the public mind. But the foremost 
place is probably to be given to the 
raising of the question of the suzerainty, 
which, utterly unnecessary and inept as 
it was, did more than anything else to 
remove any chance of success. Well, 
Sir, for every step thus taken Her 
Majesty's CTONernment are, as I have said, 
exclusively responsible. I have said that 
on some points, especially affecting the 
more recent transactions, we are without 
information. May I especially ask 

Sir 11. Cainphell-Bannerman 



the right hon. Gentleman the 
Leader of the House, when he 
speaks, to say what were the reasons why 
when on September 22 the door was shut 
upon the franchise proposals — I do not' 
gay that the door was locked and barred,, 
but it was, at all events, shut upon the 
franchise proposals — so long a delay 



occurred before the other door, as to fresh 
proposals, which was promised in the 
despatch, was opened ? That was a 
promise distinctly given, and day after 
day passed, and week after week passed,, 
of most critical time, covering the very 
period that Parliament was summoned, 
and the Reserves were called out, and yet 
no public eaunciation was given to those 
fresh propof^, and not only the Trans- 
vaal Gofefniment, but we ourselves to 
this day are entirely in ignorance as to 
what the proposals are. I trust the right 
hon. Gentleman will enlighten us both as 
to the reasons for that delay, which 
seems almost inexplicable, and as to the 
nature of the proposals themselves. I 
believe he may be able to give a very 
good and sufficient reason for the delay, 
but I ask for it as it appears strange on 
the surface. There is yet one thing 
more that I would venture to ask the 
Leader of the House if he would favour 
me with his reply. I would ask him to 
repeat in his place here, in order to give 
it still greater efficacy in the public mind, 
the assurance he has already given else- 
where, that, whatever may have been the 
purposes and the objects of himself and 
his colleagues in all these proceedings, 
an unworthy desire to avenge the mili- 
tary disasters of another year, and a na 
less unworthy desire to establish a 
political superiority of Englishman 
over Dutchman at the Cape — that 
these have no place among them. 
I know that he can give thia 
assurance, and it is right that it should 
be given, for I fear that these motives, 
although they would have been repu- 
diated by every right-thinking and re- 
sponsible man amongst us, yet are largely 
active among those who are the noisiest 
applauders and acclaimers of the war 
amongst certain classes of the community. 
I look forward with the profoundest. 
apprehension to the consequences of this 
I would call it an unhappy war,. 



war. 



and in that I think I should have the 
agreement even of those who think it was. 
an inevitable war. To* this unhappy war 
I look forward with the profoundest appre- 



77 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech, 78 



hension as to its consequences — not as to 
its military course, but as to its after 
effects upon the social and political har- 
mony of the South African community. I 
can only fervently trust that the results 
may not be such as I fear, and as 
I believe there is reason to anticipate they 
will be. I repeat, I am not one of those, 
if there are any in the House, who will 
shrink from granting the necessary 
supplies for prosecuting the war, now 
that it has commenced, with the utmost 
vigour, so as to bring it to the earliest 
and therefore the most humane and most 
successful termination. Now, these are 
the observations I have to make upon the 
question of the Address, and before I sit 
down I would simply ask the right hon. 
Gentleman to take this opportunity, as 
our proceedings in these sittings are 
somewhat novel, of making a statement 
as to the probable business before the 
House. I would ask him whether he 
could make any conjecture as to the 
duration of the time over which the 
sittings will extend, and whether, in fact, 
he can give the House any information as 
to the general subjects of our proceedings, 
and what opportunity there will be, if 
any, for us to discuss them. 

The first LORD of the TREA- 
SURY (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, 
K) : Before proceeding, Mr. Speaker, to 
deal with such parts of the right hon. 
Gentleman's speech as appear to call for 
comment, I must join with him in con- 
gratulating my two hon. friends on the 
manner in which they discharged a task 
always difficult and delicate, but on the 
present occasion carrying with it a sense 
of rare responsibility and gravity. The 
right hon. Gentleman has pointed out 
that under ordinary circumstances the 
mover and seconder of the Address have 
the opportunity of selecting such topics 
as they please from a large number sub- 
mitted to their choice. On this occasion 
both the mover and seconder were con- 
fined by the very nature of the circum- 
stances which have called us here together 
in the autumn to one single topic, that 
which is occupying all our thoughts at 
the present time. I am sure I do not go 
beyond the truth when I say that the im- 
pressive manner in which they dealt 
with that single topic, the emotion which 
they threw into a speech usually and 
natiu'ally of a character in which personal 
elements and personal feelings have less 



place than they have on the present occa- 
sion, mark these efforts out amongst 
similar speeches, at least in my expe- 
rience, as giving them a weight and an 
importance which under ordinary circum- 
stances they could perhaps hardly possess. 
But I need only say that so far as I am 
concerned I associate myself with all 
that has fallen from my two hon. 
friends. I think they presented the 
case which the country has before it 
lucidly, temperately, and yet forcibly, 
and I might gladly leave the statement of 
the Government's case in their hands. 
Now I pass from my hon. friends to the 
speech of the right hon. Gentleman, and, 
Sir, with a great deal of that speech I not 
only have no quarrel, but I find myself in 
the heartiest agreement. The right hon. 
Gentleman in all the earlier parts of his 
speech, speaking as the Leader of the 
Opposition, did what wo expected from a 
Leader of the Opposition ; he threw aside 
all party differences, he forgot all petty 
criticisms, and he announced that he and 
his friends, now that the Government and 
the country were embarked in the perils 
and difficulties of a great war, were pre- 
pared to give us all the assistance in their 
power. Nothing could be better, nothing 
be better stated, and I confess I could 
almost have wished, not for my sake or 
for the sake of the Gentlemen sitting on 
these benches, but for the sake of the de- 
bate as a whole, that the right hon. Gen- 
tleman had confined himseli in his speech 
to those earlier topics. Not for the first 
time in the right hon. Gentleman's 
oratorical career, it does seem to me, I 
confess, that the source of inspiration of 
one-half of the speech was somewhat 
different from the source of inspiration of 
the other half of the speech. And if the 
right hon. Gentleman's effort had fallen 
under the critical gaze of some professor 
of the higher criticism he would certainly 
have said that what professed to be the 
utterance of a single individual upon a 
single occasion undoubtedly formed part 
of two separate speeches delivered by tw6 
different individuals on two entirely 
different subjects. The right hon. Gentle- 
man said truly enough that in July last 
he and we were in accord as to the 
justice of the demands, broadly speaking, 
which were made of the Boer Govern- 
ment, as to the reality of the grievances 
under which the Uitlanders laboured, and 
as to the great probability, as we all 
hoped and thought, of those demands 

First Day. 



79 Addreas in Answer to { COMMONS } 



the Queen's Speech, 



80 



being granted ultimately by the statesmen 
responsible for the conduct of the policy of 
the South African Republic. That was in 
July. I do not dissent from the account 
the right hon. Gentleman gives of the 
general state of mind prevailing in this 
House, and not only here, but through- 
out the country. Certainly I was, I will 
not say sanguine, but hopeful, at all 
events, then and at a much later date that 
wise counsels would still prevail, that just 
demands would after all be granted, and 
that all the horrors of war would not be 
brought down upon South Africa by an 
obstinate refusal of the South African 
Republic to grant rights to the Uitlanders 
which the right hon. Gentleman and we 
are agreed in thinking the Uitlanders had 
a right to demand. The right hon. 
Gentleman argues, " How comes it that, 
after all these hopes and all these expecta- 
tions, we nevertheless find ourselves, in 
the middle of October, in a state of 
war ? " and he insinuates — he does more 
than insinuate — that the fault of this 
deplorable termination of diplomatic con- 
troversy was due, not to obstinacy — 
criminal obstinacy, as I think it — on the 
part of the rulers of the two South 
African Republics, but was due to some 
unmentioned errors on the part of those 
responsible for conducting diplomacy on 
behalf of Her Majesty's Government. 
The right hon. Gentleman says that he is 
going to defer telling us in detail what 
those errors were until a more convenient 
season. I am sure the right hon. Gentle- 
man in making that statement intended a 
kindness to those whom he abstained 
from criticising, but I can assure him it 
is a kindness which we are far from 
appreciating. I confess if we have been 
guilty of errors in the conduct of these 
negotiations we should like to be told 
what they are in the presence of the 
representatives of the people, and in their 
presence to refute, if we could refute — as 
we confidently believe we could — any 
charges thus brought against us. It appears 
that the right hon. Gentleman is going to 
defer to a later date the commentary 
upon these negotiations, and until that later 
date I suppose we must reserve our reply. 
The right hon. Gentleman, though he 
abstains from detailed criticism of the 
negotiations, nevertheless had something 
to say in criticism of the policy of Her 
Majesty's Government, and I must con- 
fess I listened to these fragments of the 
case which is some day to be presented 

Mr, A. /. Balfmir. 



to us with an astonishment which I do 
not pretend to disguise. The right hon. 
Gentleman asks me why there was so long 
a delay after the despatch of the 22nd 
September before our solution of the 
Transvaal problem was submitted to the 
Boer Government. Am I to understand 
that the right hon. Gentleman thinks 
that that delay was a delay which militated 
against the interests of peace 1 Am I to 
suppose that an interval when it was 
possible for the Boer Government to go 
back upon their course, and make 
proposals to us either directly or through 
the President of the Orange Free State, 
was one which hurried on war ? Such a 
contention is not only inconsistent with 
common-sense, but it is inconsistent 
with the very contentions of those organs 
of public opinion which support the right 
hon. Gentleman and his party in all this 
South African affair. We were congratu- 
lated that we had not hurried on the 
formulation of these proposals. We were 
congratulated on leaving the door, if not 
open, still ajar, and I therefore fail 
altogether to understand why the right 
hon. Gentleman, surveying the whole 
course of these prolonged negotiations, 
singles out for criticism this one act, not 
of commission, but of omission, which 
everybody except the right hon. Gentle- 
man thinks was an omission which, if it had 
anv effect at all on the ultimate result, 
would tend to peace rather than to war. 
The right hon. Gentleman brings up— as, 
perhaps, he could hardly avoid bringing 
up — that ancient and oft-ropeated charge 
that we had goaded the South African 
Republic into war by flaunting suzerainty 
in their face. Sir, there is no justi- 
fication whatever for that charge. The 
South African Republic themselves made 
claims of being a wholly independent 
State, externally and internally, quite 
inconsistent with the Conventions of 
1881 and 1884. In answer to that 
contention my right hon. friend the 
Secretary for the Colonies did re- 
reiterate the undoubted rights of this 
country to control the foreign relations 
of the South African Republic, and 
he did use, as he had a perfect right 
to use, the word "suzerainty." He 
did not use the word gratuitously or 
unprovoked. It was made necessary by 
the contention of the Boers themselves, 
and had he not made perfectly clear the 
position of this country he would have 
been guilty of hches which I am con- 



81 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. S2 



\'inced this House would not easily have 
forgiven. The right hon. Gentleman 
tells us or insinuates — for I am really not 
quite sure whether the charge was delibe- 
rately formulated or whether it was only 
suggested — but whether it was formu- 
lated or suggested, he seemed to me to 
hint, or more than hint, that the war was 
due to the fact that for the last two or 
three months we have been bluflSng. 
Now, Sir, what is bluff? I under- 
stand it is a word largely used in 
connection with a game of cards, 
of which I have no personal knowledge, 
and so used it indicates that a person 
having no useful cards in his hand never- 
theless acts as if he possessed them. That 
is not the condition of this country. We 
have the cards and we mean to play them, 
and I really fail to understand what the 
right hon. Gentleman means by using the 
word bluff in this connection. But he 
suggests that to send out 10,000 troops 
from Malta or from India was of the 
nature of an irritating menace to the 
South African Kcpublic, and that it made 
that menace doubly irritating because 
the fact appeared in the newspapers. I 
do not know what control the right hon. 
Gentleman had over the newspapers when 
he was in office, but I know it is not in 
the power of this Government to keep 
secret the fact that many thousand 
troops are sent from one part of the 
British dominions to another. That is 
a fact necessarily involving publicity, 
and does not involve anything in the 
nature of menace or brag. Now the 
right hon. Gentleman disapproves of our 
sending these troops to South Africa. 
Where should we have been at the 
present moment if we had not sent them 1 
What sort of a speech would the right 
hon. Gentleman have made if Parliament 
had been called together at the present 
time, and we had to deal with a situation 
in which our colonists in Natal were left 
wholly unprotected against invasion from 
the two Republics 1 Should we have 
heard anything then of bluff or brag, 
or the folly of sending troops, or 
the folly of allowing the sending of 
troops to appear in the newspapers, and 
all the rest of the matters which the right 
hon. Gentleman has brought before us ? 
Would he not have got up and said, " The 
Government might have hoped, and were 
right to hope, that peace would be main- 
tained, but they also had to contemplate 
the possibility of peace not being main- 



tained. It was their duty without menace 
to provide for the defences of the Empire. 
j That duty," he would have said- and 
what answer could we have given? — "you 
have failed to undertake, and while we, 
the Opposition " — I am quoting from this 
imaginary speech of the right hon. Gentle- 
man — " are quite prepared to assist the 
Government in carrying on the war with 
vigour, we must express our unanimous 
condemnation of that failure to carrv out 
the primary duty of a Government — viz., 
that of seeing to the safety of the Empire." 
I do not . know how the right hon. Gen- 
tleman would have us behave. Not to 
send out troops is to betray the country. 
To send them out, in his opinion, is 
playing a game of bluff and brag. Which 
of these two alternatives have we chosen ? 
I know we have chosen the right one. 
As I think I have said elsewhere in public, 
if there is any criticism to be levelled 
against us it is not that we have acted 
too quickly, or that we have done 
too much, but that our hope for peace, 
our anxiety lest anything should unduly 
hurry on or provoke war, made us most 
reluctant to do anything which the most 
suspicious and the most irritable of 
politicans could translate into a threat. I 
hope and believe that in this matter 
we have steered a just course between 
these two extremes. At all events, of 
this I am certain, that the criticism which 
the right hon. Gentleman thought fit to 
level against us to-day — the criticism 
that we have provoked, and almost 
brought upon ourselves and the country, 
a war that could be avoided by sending 
out troops — is, of all possible accusations 
that could be brought against us the most 
impossible to substantiate, and the most 
intrinsically absurd. I am sorry to have 
spent even so much time in the ungrate 
ful task of attacking a speech with so 
much of which I cordially agree. But 
the right hon. Gentleman will, I am sure, 
feel, when he has thought it right to say 
what he did, that I could not do less than 
say what I have said. Having answered 
him to the best of my ability, 1 suppose it 
is hardly necessary that 1 should add 
anything. The gravity of the position 
is present to the mind of every 
man listening to me. I should be the 
last person to boast of victories not yet 
won, or to look forward to happy con- 
clusions not yet reached, but surely this 
at least we may say, that if war is to be 
entered into, it has seldom been entered 

First Day. 



83 



Mdrr^ im A iLncrr to { COMMOXS J 



ih^ QueeiCs Speech. 



84 



into by this countrr on an issae which, at 
all events as we feel it, is more deariv an 
issue of ric:hteousness and IfDertv. There 
is another circumstance which I could not 
sit down without referring to» and which 
is novel in the history of this Empire, or 
at all events^ if not novel, has had no 
panillel on the same scale or magnitude 
in the history of this Empire ; for we 
have with us the material proof that our 
self-governing colonies beyond the seas are 
with us heart and soul in this matter. 
Is it to be l>elieved that, if we were 
engj\gei.i upon some pii-atical transaction 
against the liberty of another people, 
these colonies, the verv breath of whose 
nostrils is self-government and liberty, 
would have thrown themselves into our 
cause, would offer us their resources, and 
aid us with their troops '? No, Sir ; we 
are the butt of much ill-informed and 
mah'oious criticism on the part of foreign 
nations, but we have with us the con- 
science of the Empire, and, having with us 
the conscience of the Empire and the 
material resources of Empire, surely we 
may look forward without undue mis- 
giving to the result of a contest which 
was none of our seeking, and which we 
would have given anything consistent 
with the honour of this country to avoid, 
but which, as it has been forced upon us, 
will undoubtedly be carried through, so 
far as we are concerned, to its final, its 
honourable, and I hope its not remote 
conclusion. 

*SiH CHARLES DILKE (Gloucester, 
Forest of Dean) : The right hon. Gentle- 
man has failed to give any answer to the 
question addressed to him by the right 
hon. the Leader of the Opposition, as to 
the course of our proceedings in the 
present session. 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR: I beg the 
right hon. Gentleman's pardon, and 
apologise for the omission. I con- 
ceive that the only business which this 
House is called upon to transact in the 
course of the present session would be the 
proceedings in connection with the 
Queen's Speech, and I venture to hope 
that speeches will be confined to the 

exclusive topic dealt with in the Queen's 
Speech, to the Army Estimates which 
will be brought forward by my hon. 
friend the Under Secretary for War, and 

Mr, A, J. Balfour. 



to the proposals of the Chancellor of the 
Exchequer with regard to Ways and 
Means. These are the three subjects with 
which we shall have to deal ; and when 
I am asked, as I was by the right hon. 
Gentleman, how long it will take to 
conclude oiu* labours on these subjects, 
my answer is that that depends more on 
hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite 
than on those on this side of the House. 
So far as I am aware, there is no reason, 
considering the unanimity which jH^evails 
as to the desirability of giving the Govern- 
ment every assistance Li prosecuting the 
war, why our labours should be in any 
way of a protracted character. 

♦Sir CHARLES DH^KE : That is not 
an answer to the question which I under- 
stand has been put by the right hon. 
Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition 
to the Leader of the House, and which I 
also, on behalf of several Members acting 

with me, gave him private notice I would 
put to him. The right hon. Gentleman 
counts on the assistance of the House to 
facilitate the business of these short 
sittings and bring them rapidly to a con- 
clusion. I believe that the right hon. 
Gentleman wishes to confine discussion 
to the one topic mentioned in the Queen's 
Speech ; but the Government, I under- 
stand, cannot force that course upon the 
House. I imagine from the precedents 
that the Chair would not limit discussion 
on the Address in Reply, for hon. Mem- 
bers have a right to discuss all subjects 
competent to be raised on these occasions. 
If the Government are going to appeal to 
Members to rigidly confine themselves to 
one subject the House has a right to know 
what are the facilities to be given to 
Members to discuss all other subjects in 
place of the opportunity which is now to 
be denied to them. 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : Though I am 

perhaps rather out of order, I may be 

allowed, with the leave of the House, to 

say that the right hon. Gentleman did 

give me private notice of his intention 

to ask a question, and I am quite pre- 
pared to answer it. I believe there are 
two precedents bearing on the present 
position of affairs, that of 1878 and that 
of 1885. On both occasions Parliament 
was summoned to meet in the autumn 
for the purpose of dealing with a singly 



85 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech, 8G 



*opic, and the Queen^s Speech was, in 
both cases, practically confined to that 
topic, and in neither case was there a 
second Queen's Speech when the House 
met in the spring of the following year. 
In 1878, which I think is the precedent 
most germane to the present case, the 
absence of a Queen's Speech was made 
up lor by a Ministerial statement made 
at the opening of the ordinary session, 
Upton which there was an opportunity for 
Members to express their views upon the 
legislative programme, of the Govern- 
ment^ and othen\dse to raise questions 
similar to those raised in the debate on 
the Address. I would propose, should 
the House al>andon the privilege of mis- 
cellaneous discussion in this autumn 
session, to follow the precedent set by 
SKr Staflford Northcote in 1878, and fol- 
lowed by Mr. Gladstone in 1885, afford- 
ing a similar opportunity for discussion 
when we meet again. 

♦Sir CHARLES DILKE : It is clear 
that that precedent is one not altogether 
applicable to our present forms of pro- 
C5edure, which would have to be varied. 
Under the present forms only one night 
would be given for the discussion of the 
Bills the Government proposed to bring 
forward. In the speech of the right hon. 
Gentleman, on which I would like to 
make a few brief observations, he chal- 
lenged those of us who have our doubts 
as to the policy and necessity of this war 
to state any grounds for criticism of that 
policy. It is impossible for us who 
have these doubts to abstain from 
taking the proper and almost necessary 
opportunity of stating, with all the 
gravity the subject deserves, although 
as briefly as possible, the views and 
doubts we entertain. The speeches we 
have heard to - night have entirely 
avoided what most of us on this 
side regard as the causes of the 
war. Not a word has been said as 
to the original annexation of the 
South African Republic, or in regard 
to the Raid which took place on the 
Transvaal State a few years ago. It 
seems to many of us that it is impossible 
to judge the wisdom or necessity of the 
war in which we are now engaged 
without some regard to these events in 
the common history of the South African 
Republic and ourselves. The hon. 
and gallant Member the Mover of the 
Address in Reply to Her Majesty's 



gracious Speech, appealed to those on this 
side of the House, who he said were 
either members of the Society of Friends 
or of the Aborigines Protection Society, 
to study the history of the treatment of 
the native races by the Boers. I am not 
a member of the Society of Friends, 
but I have been all my life and am 
now a member of the Aborigines. 
Protection Society, and I admit that I 
am one of those who have no sym- 
pathy with the Boers in that respect, 
that I believe their treatment of the 
native races has set a bad example, which 
other people in Africa have subsequently 
followed. So little have I any sympathy 
with the Boers that I believe the state- 
ments made in regard to the corruption 
and injustice of their Government are 
true. As an advanced Radical I have my 
own views as to the pig-headed Toryism 
by which the Boers are animated. But I 
ask myself what are the Imperial interests, 
at stake in this war on which we arc 
entering, and is not this a question we 
should consider, viz., the future which 
this war presents to us in South Africa ? 
The hon. and gallant Member who 
moved the Address in Reply gave us a 
most alarming glance at that future. In 
the course of his remarks he spoke of this, 
war as being, in his opinion, intended to 
disarm the whole Dutch population of 
South Africa, for, he said, without dis- 
armament throughout South Africa, we 
should have in future to keep a garrison of 
40,000 men in that country, which would 
add enormously to our responsibilities. 
It is impossible for us to discuss, however 
inadequately, the subject of this war 
without considering the effect on it of 
past history and our past treatment of 
these Republics, and what the difficulties 
are in our way to which we should look 
forward as a consequence of the war in 
which we are involved. I am convinced 
that my right hon. friend the late Leader 
of the Opposition was right in the 
remarks he made the other day when he 
pointed to the fact that the Secretary of 
State for the Colonies and others of us 
who were parties to the change in 18S4 
were impressed at the time by the diffi- 
culties of the situation in South Africa 
which had been caused for us arising out 
of the annexation of the Transvaal. To 
that annexation I was bitterly opposed at 
the time, and remained bitterly opposed to 
it. But we cannot consider the present war 
without remarking the impression pro- 

First Hat/, 



.^7 Jddress in Answer to { COMMONS} 



the Queen's Speech, 



88 



•duced on the minds of the people of South 
Africa by that annexation and by the 
Eaid. Now, in this country, we are 
all prepared to condemn the folly of 
the Raid. We are all prepared to 
admit that the military conduct of that 
Raid was disgraceful, and that the whole 
history of the expedition led by the 
medical officer and the gallant officer of 
the Household Cavalry which was repulsed 
was foolish and miserable. But we do 
not sufficiently bear in mind in embarking 
•on this war, and on the policy which 
has led to the war, what was the effect 
produced by that Raid upon South Africa, 
and what was the necessary expiation of 
.that Raid if we are to restore that confi- 
dence on which the whole future of these 
South African Colonies depends. We 
have had frequent allusions to the great 
Imperial interests in South Africa. There 
is no one in this House more concerned 
for the safety and usefulness of 
that most important Imperial coaling 
station. But many of us who hold that 
view as strongly as hon. Members oppo- 
site believe that that is best secured by a 
policy of friendship with the Dutch race 
in Cape Colony. That being so, we have 
always striven for the time when the two 
races should co-operate together. As in 
Canada the French, so the Dutch race in 
South Africa is a prolific race. They 
•outniunber us already at the present 
moment, but just as the French Canadians 
increase rapidly, and as French Canada 
is even more of a French country than 
when wo conquered it, the Cape is more 
Dutch than when we conquered it. 
The relations between the two 
iraces wore becoming every day closer, 
but when the annexation of the Trans- 
waal was beginning to be forgotten, the 
Raid retarded that happy ameliora- 
tion of the condition of aflfairs. It 
is these two events which have jeopardised 
our coaling station in South Africa, if it 
lias ever been in jeopardy for a 
moment. These are matters which it 
seems to me cannot be forgotten when 
we are entering on this war. I freely 
^mit that the war in its immediate in- 
ception has been forced upon us in cir- 
cumstances which make it impossible for 
•us us not to pick up the gauntlet thrown 
down, but, without allusion to the 
annexation and the Raid, the question 
•cannot now be discussed at all. These 
matters aff*ect the whole question of Sir 
Alfred Milner^s policy, and the wisdom 

Sv' Charles Dilke, 



of the Government in actively taking it 
up and pressing it on the country. The 
Leader of the House tells us that, up to a 
very late moment indeed, he hoped for 
peace, and he repudiates with natural 
warmth the charge that this country was 
"bluffing a small State." Is it not 
the fact, however, that Sir A. Milner, in 
placing his policy before the Government, 
told them very frankly that a very 
probable result of that policy would be 
war» and war not only with the South 
African Republic, but with the Orange 
Free State as well ? I cannot but 
think that the whole policy was open 
to grave doubts, and it seems to me 
that, in view of the annexation and the 
Raid, it was unwise to embark on that 
policy. The Leader of the House has 
made a certain charge against my right 
hon. friend, and has said that there are 
two voices in the speech of the Leader of 
the Opposition ; but is it not absolutely 
necessary that there should be to some 
extent two voices in the speech of any 
man, on either side of the House, who 
deals with the great issue before us 1 
The terms of the ultimatum addressed to 
this country are such as no Englishman 
can avoid resenting, and it is, in my 
view, impossible that we should refuse 
the Government the money they ask for 
now for their military operations. But 
that very fact makes it the more neces- 
sary to inquire into the causes that have 
led up to this expenditure. Now is the 
time to express our doubts, if we have 
any, as to the wisdom of the policy which 
has made this expenditure necessary. I 
quite agree that the sooner the might of 
our arms is irresistibly displayed the 
better for South Africa as a whole, but I 
cannot avoid regarding with the gravest 
doubt the sacrifices which will be im- 
posed on this country in the future by the 
adoption of this policy. The Leader of 
the House appeared to doubt whether 
there was not some difference of opinion 
between critics of the Government as to 
whether they had done too little or too 
much in the way of military preparation, 
but surely the whole House sees that 
when that question is asked it is asked 
from the point of \iew of the Grovem- 
ment policy. It is still open for us who 
have our doubts as to the wisdom of the 
policy itself to express them. We 
believe that there was in the fact of the 
Raid ground for the exercise of greater 
patience on the part of the Government, 



89 Address in Answei' to {17 October 1899} 



tlie Queen^s Speech. 



90' 



and that, by the exercise of such patience, 
this war might have been avoidea. With 
regard to the military preparations, we 
have seen the great readiness and celerity 
with which the Indian Empire has placed 
forces in the field. We knew India 
would do that, but I doubt very much 
whether it is wise on an occasion of this 
sort to draw upon the resources of our 
Indian Empire. This action will un- 
doubtedly produce the greatest con- 
troversy in the future, and will strengthen 
the impression in India that India is 
overtaxed for military purposes, and has 
to maintain an army which may very 
easily be drawn upon for service in other 
parts of the world. I should have pre- 
ferred that exclusive reliance should have 
been placed on forces sent out from home. 
The Leaders of the two sides in this 
House are the strongest defenders of our 
existing military system. They have fre- 
quently told us of the frightful strain put 
upon it by our present garrisons, and I 
for one fear that the adoption of Sir 
Alfred Milner's policy may involve the 
breakdown of that military system. The 
gravest military question involved is, what 
is to be the future military situation in 
South Africa. The policy on which we 
have entered will force upon us the 
augmentation of our garrisons in South 
Africa in the future. That augmentation 
will be an additional strain on the 
military system, to which I personally am 
opposed, but which the majority of both 
parties support, and it can only be met 
by enormous expenditure or by lessening 
our other garrisons. I fear, too, that it 
will have a tendency in this country to 
encourage the opinion that, in view of 
the great increase in our Army, we can 
afford to stand still in regard to our 
Navy. The future in South Africa must, 
I am afraid, Ix) essentially a gloomy 
one. 

♦Sir H. MEYSEY-THOMPSON (Staf- 
fordshire, Handswortb) : I should not 
intrude upon the House at this moment 
were it not that I think that I may be able 
to be of some slight use in reassuring and 

comforting the consciences of those who, 
though loyally supporting England and 
the Government at this juncture, have 
still some qualms of conscience with 
respect to what has been taking place and 
the reasons which made war inevitable. 
There are two words which have troubled 



them especially — Suzerainty and Inde- 
pendence. Now, in October, 1897, just 
two years ago, I was at Bloemfontein. 
There I had some very interesting con> 
versations with Mr. De Villiers, Chief 
Justice of the Orange Free State. Mr. 
De Villiers pressed me strongly as to my 
opinion whether there was any chance of 
inducing the House of Commons audi 
England to give up and abrogate the 
suzerainty of England over the Trans- 
vaal. I could not understand why he wa» 
so anxious on this point, until he told me 
that if England was willing to do this the 
Orange Free State would at once amalga- 
mate and fuse with the Transvaal. Also* 
that they would already have done so had 
it not been for the suzerainty of England 
over the Transvaal. Now, sir, I think 
this disposes altogether of the contention 
which has troubled some of our friends so 
much, that the suzerainty was abrogated 
by mutual consent by the Convention of 
1884, and was only raked up by the 
Colonial Secretary in order to needlessly 
hurt the susceptibilities of the Boers. 
Here was riot what the French call le 
premier vemt, not what our friends oppo- 
site call " the man in the street," but the 
highest legal authority of the Orange Free 
State, discussing the matter quietly in 
quiet times, and not only recognising the 
suzerainty as an absolutely unquestioned 
fact, but as a fact of so solid and 
important a character that it was the bar, 
the only bar, but in his opinion the 
effectual bar, which was preventing the 
amalgamation of these two States. I think, 
sir, that this ought to carry conviction to 
those who have been belie^ang that the 
Transvaal and the Orange Free State were 
under the impression that the suzerainty 
had lapsed and disappeared until it was 
revived for the purpose of the late 
negotiations. So much for the suzerainty ; 
we now come to independence. Why 
was it that the suzerainty should l)e con- 
sidered a bar to amalgamation ? It must 
be remembered that it was the Orange 
Free State which objected to amalgama- 
tion. Why 1 I dare say it will be said 
" for sentimental reasons." That will be 
by persons whose experience and know- 
ledge of the Boers are drawn from their 
own inner consciousness. Those who 
know the Boers intimately tell us we 
must look to more solid reasons than 
sentiment. The Orange Free State is- 
well governed, the Transvaal badly 
governed. If they amalgamated what 

First Day, 



^1 



rlddress in Answer to { COMMONS } 



tJie Queen's Speech. 



92 



was to happen 1 Was the Transvaal 
Government to become good and to be 
assimilated to that in the Orange Free 
State 1 or was the Orange Free State 
Government to become bad and assimi- 
lated to that in the Transvaal 1 Now can 
this suzerainty question throw some light 
on the question 1 Suzerainty would be 
no hindrance at all to good government, 
but it might have been a hindrance to 
bad government. If the Orange Free 
State had hoped that fusion would lead to 
good government they would never have 
bothered their heads about suzerainty. 
If these Republics had governed justly 
And without plunder and corruption their 
independence would have been safe and 
the question of suzerainty would have 
remained dormant. It is like the law : 
the law is a terror to evil-doers ; the up- 
right citizen hardly knows of the law's 
existence as far as he is personally 
concerned. So with the suzerainty. 
While good government had prevailed 
the suzerainty would have not been felt ; 
but it existed, and the Orange Free State 
knew that it existed, and it wivs because 
they wished not for good government, but 
for bad government, and to share in the 
plunder and corruption prevalent in the 
Transvaal that the suzerainty was a 
terror to them. President Steyn, who 
was educated at an English University, 
Mr. De Villiers, a highly educated and an 
extremely intelligent man, and many 
others in the Orange Free Suite knew 
perfectly well that the independence of 
the combined Republics would have been 
perfectly siife if they had had decent 
civilised government, and that the 
suzerainty question would never have 
troubled them at all. But if the Uit- 
landers were not going to be obliged to 
pay the taxes for the ordinaiy burgher, 
nnd if otticials were not to be able to 
make large sums of money, what was the 
use of amalgamating l Good government 
they had iUready at home, and perfect 
lil>erty to manage their own affairs — they 
had nothing to gain in the way of govern- 
ment. Would thov be allowed to spoil 
and plunder the Uitlander in the future '? 
That was the question. Many of the 
most intelligent men, both in the Orange 
Free State and the Tnmsvjuil, could not 
bring themselves to believe that England 
would not some day or other awake up to 
a knowletlge of the great injustice which 
W{is being done, and insist on its being 
redresseii. A friend of mine lately re- 

Sir U. Meyseij-Thompson. 



turned from the Transvaal told me that 
a Transvaal official in a mofaient of ex- 
pansion said to him, " Of course we know 
it cannot last ; what we have to do is to 
do the best we can for ourselves while it 
does last;! " If England had been content to 
give up and abrogate the suzerainty that 
would have been an outward and visible 
sign that she had once and for all made 
up her mind that nothing could induce 
her to fulfil her duties or responsibilities 
in the Transvaal — that she had abandoned 
her subjects there to their fate, and to be 
the prey of the Boers for all time. It is 
extraordinary that any people should have 
so absolutely misunderstood the English 
character and English determination. 
To imagine that England would perma- 
nently consent to see her subjects and 
those of other Powers provide tens of 
millions of money, collect the finest engi- 
neers, chemists, and mine managers in tne 
world, and then see the Boers help them- 
selves to as much of the profits as they 
pleased seems to us absurd. Sic vos nan 
vobis, as Virgil said of the bees; the 
English were to make the honey, and the 
Dutch were to eat it. It was a beautiful 
dream, but the more beautiful the dream 
the more disappointing is the awakening, 
and it is to avoid the pain of seeing this 
beautiful dream vanish that the Boers 
have gone to war \vith England. Now, I 
think it must be abundantly evident to 
anyone that the independence which we 
intended to give to the Transvaal and 
the independence which they are willing 
to fight for are two perfectly distinct 
things. Independence, in so far as it 
meant the right to govern themselves 
according to civilised ideas — freedom for 
themselves without interfering with the 
freedom of others — this independence 
they could have had without war, and 
they knew it ; independence, meaning 
licence to plunder and rob the Uitlanders 
within their borders, licence to arm and 
bribe and incite our own subjects in 
Africa against us, licence to keep an 
expensive legation in Eiux)pe for the 
purpose of corrupting and inciting politi- 
cians and journalists not only on the Con- 
tinent of Europe but all over the world 
to injure England in every possible way, 
////< independence they could not have 
Without war, and they have deliberately, 
after arming and preparing for years, 
gone to war with us to preser\"e this sort 
of independence ; and it is for this that 
they have deliberately risked and thrown 



^3 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech, 94 

away the other independence of self- 1 large sections of the people of this country, 
government and equal rights for all, I know it is hard to get a hearing for the 



which they despised and would have 
none of. I am afraid that the results will 
be disastrous to them, but I cannot see 
that our Government could have taken 
any other steps than those they are now 
taking. 

Mr. DILLON (Mayo, E.) : I rise for 

the purpose of moving an Amendment to 

the Address. It is one drawn on lines 

which I think will commend it to the 

judgment of a very large section of the 
people of this country, and will, I 
am sure, recommend it to the over- 
whelming majority of the people of the 
civilised world outside. I noticed that 
the First Lord of the Treasury in his 
speech treated with marked contempt the 
opinion of the civilised world ; Imt some 
months ago, when a portion of the press 
in Europe was favourable to this country 
with regard to this dispute, our news- 
papers most carefully and sedulously 
gathered and reproduced articles from the 



voice of reason, of justice, and of humanity, 
at a time when the dogs of war have 
been let loose. When our soldiers are in 
the field we are told that the time for 
argument has gone by. But I do submit 
that this Amendment will certainly re- 
commend itself to the overwhelming 
majority of the civilised world outside 
this Empire. I am proud to be in the 
position of declaring that in Ireland the 
overwhelming majority of the people 
condemn this war as unjust, unneces- 
sary, and cowardly. (Cries of ^'fQuestion.") 
Yes, that is the question. We in Ireland 
will have to pay our share — aye, more 
than our share — of the enormous expense, 
and the injustice to us is aggravated by 
the universal condemnation in our 
country of this war. I have carefully 
read the speeches of Ministers on this 
question, and I have been astonished to 
see that this has been treated as if it 
were a war between two great nations 
of equal or nearly equal power. Very 
few of those in this country who support 



most obscure journals. But now, when the ; the Government seem to have realised 
unanimous voice of Europe is to be found | that there can be no glory gained — what- 
on the side of the two small nations i ever may be the result of the war — there 
whose existence is threatened, the First | can be no honour and no glory to the 
Lord representing the Government treats ^ arms of England arising from her victory, 
it with contempt and speaks of it as In the whole history of civilised mankind 
unjust and malignant criticism. I ven- 
ture to respectfully submit the following 
Amendment to the Address : — 



" And we liumbly represent to your Majesty 
that the state of war now existing between 
Great Britain and the South African Republic 
has been caused by the iissertion of claims to 
interfere in the internal government of the 
Republic in direct violation of the terms of 
your Majesty's Convention of 1884 with tlie 
Uovemment of the South African Republic, 
and by the mjissinj; of large bodies of I5ritisli 
troops on the frontiers of the Republic ; and 
we further humbly submit that Ijefore more 
bloodshed takes place proposals sliould Ihj 
made in the spirit of the recent Peace Confer- 
ence at The llague, with the view of finding, 
in an independent and friendly arbitration, a 
settlement of the difficulties between the two 
Governments, and that an ignominious war 
may thus be avoided between the over- 
whelming forces of your Majesty's Empire 
and those of two smafl nations numbering in 

all less than 200,000 souls." i, ^j- i^ n^i^ 

been to discover what really this war is 

This is a moderate Amendment which, ■ about. The hon. Member opposite tells 



there never has been so unequal a 
struggle, and this very inequality ought 
to have made men show a spirit of 
moderation in their language and sorrow 
in their hearts even in the case of those 
who honestly believed we were driven 
into this war. But that has not been the 
case. We have heard of vengeance for 
past military defeats, we have heard that 
the blot of Majuba Hill must 
be wiped out, and we have heard 
of the necessity of asserting British 
supremacy in South Africa. Wo 
are told, in the same breath, that 
there is no intention of interfering with 
the independence of the Boers. But we 
heard just now a speech by an hon. 
Member opposite which must have made 
Ministers feel uncomfortable. The great 
difficulty we have had in the past has 



even in the midst of the war fever, one 
of the most grievous diseases that can 



us that it is not over any franchise ques- 
tion, or in consequence of any interfer- 



seize upon a nation, which now rages ence with the independence of the Trans- 
throughout Great Britain, will re- 1 vaal, but that it has been undertaken because 
commend itself to the better judgment of | the Boers have claimed a right to take a 

First Bay, 



95 Address in Answer h { COMMONS } 



tJie Queen's Speech. 



96 



share of the gold which Englishmen have 
dug from under their soil. And the hon. 
Member spoke of the Boers indulging in 
a beautiful dream from which they would 
have to be rudely awakened. But surely 
every Member of this House must have 
present to his mind the colossal fortunes 
which have been made by the very 
people who complain of the action of the 
Government. I would point to this fact, 
that the Government upon whose soil 
these immense riches have been dis- 
covered has, by the universal admission 
of the whole world, allowed strangers to 
come into its country and extract from 
its soil its boundless wealth, thereby 
piling up untold fortunes, under a system 
of gold laws the most liberal that exist in 
any part of the world. Far away at 
Klondyke, when the miners there com- 
plained of certain injustices which they 
alleged they suffered at the hands of the 
Canadian Government, the laws of the 
Transvaal were pointed to as being the 
best and most just in the world. Yet 
the hon. Member opposite is not ashamed 
— and I rather admire his frankness — to 
tell us that it is not a franchise question 
which has caused this war, but that 
it is the claim of the Transvaal to a 
share of the gold dug from its soil. 
I think it is one of the most extraordinarv 
acts of cruelty the world has ever seen, 
that the liberality of the Transvaal 
Government, which has thrown open its 
gates to the stranger, and allowed him to 
grow rich upon the produce of the 
country won by the sacrifice of their fore- 
fathers when you had driven them from 
the Cape, should be used as an argument 
and turned against them to rob them of 
the liberty which they have won. One 
complaint that I have to make as to the 
action of Her Majesty's Government in 
this matter is that up to this present 
time no clear statement such as the 
public can understand and agree about 
has been placed before the people as a 
cause for the war. For a very long time 
we were told that the cause of the war 
was the franchise, and the sympathies of 
the people were aroused by the statement 
that the demand of Her Majesty's 
Goverimient was for those rights for the 
Uitlanders to vote and have a share in 
the Government such as had been secured 
for every inhabitant of this country. A 
considerable amount of feeling and 
sympathy was roused by that issue, and 
many men supported the Government on 

Mr, Dillon. 



that issue who would not have done so 
had any other issue been raised. But I 
have believed from the beginning that if 
the issue of the franchise was a real issue, 
and if the franchise had been granted — 
and I wish for their own sakes that the 
Boers had offered it years ago — not 
one of the British Uitlanders would have 
accepted it. I have known English 
citizens who have made their homes in 
America for ten or fifteen years, and who 
have always refused to take part in^ the 
government of that country. The English 
citizen when he goes abroad is not 
anxious to give up his British citizenship, 
and I say the issue of the franchise was 
falsely put forward. It was not the real 
grievance put forward by the Uitlanders. 
It was an attempt to conciliate to the 
Government a certain element of the 
public. If the franchise had been granted, 
and the Boers had come to hold that 
view, it would not have been the end of 
the matter, but only the commencement 
of their trouble. But whatever may be 
the merits of that contention the fact 
remains that the statement as to the fran- 
chise is absolutely rotten. We were told 
by the speech of the Duke of Devonshire 
that the franchise was really a matter of 
exceedingly little importance, and that in 
reality all that the Government desired 
was the best rights for their citizens in 
South Africa, but he did not give any 
definition of what those rights were. He 
declared that the franchise was no longer 
in issue, and never had been. Since that 
statement there has been no authoritative 
statement as to what is the issue in 
dispute between the two countries. Now, 
I desire to say a few words with regard 
to the recent despatches which have been 
laid before us. No man who has studied 
what has been published in reference to 
the misunderstandings which took place 
between Mr. Conyngham Greene and Mr. 
Eeitz can doubt but what there was 
ground for believing that the Transvaal 
Government were trapped and in- 
duced to send the despatch in which 
they offered the five years franchise pro- 
posal under conditions, under the im- 
pression that the despatch would be 
approved and accepted by this country. 
Surely, if a breath of suspicion was raised 
as to whether it would be approved by 
the British Government, the benefit of 
the doubt ought to have been given ta 
the Boers. The conditions which were 
made were reasonable, and might have 



^7 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queev's Speech. 



98 



been accepted by this coiiiitiy. All that 
the Transvaal asked was that if they con- 
sented to give the five years franchise 
the Government would give a fresh 
guarantee that this interference would not 
be taken as a precedent, and that the 
suzerainty should be dropped. It had 
ahready been dropped by the Convention 
of 1884— (cries of "No")— or at least that 
was the opinion of a majority of the 
British people, and it was certainly and 
•unquestionably the idea of the Govern- 
ment of the day. Lord Derby stated so, 
and if hon. Members would read the 
debates of that date they would see that 
Lord Salisbury and other Ministers 
denounced the Convention on the ground 
■that it destroyed the suzerainty. The 
policy of Sir Alfred Milner was to give a 
five years franchise and to leave the 
(Jitlanders to work out their own salva- 
tion by constitutional methods, and the 
Boers asked for nothing except an opinion 
as to what they understood the meaning 
of the Convention of 1 884 to be. Their last 
appeal was rudely rejected by this Govern- 
ment, and the door was closed in their 
faces with a bang. The Boers were told 
that this Government refused to discuss 
the matter further, and would formulate 
their own proposals shortly. Those pro- 
posals have never been formulated from 
that day to this. The First Lord of the 
Treasury undertook to say it was done in 
the interests of peace ; that is not true, 
as I can prove by the Blue Books. 
On the 1st October, Sir Alfred Milner 
.sent a despatch to the Colonial Office in 
the following words — • 

" September 3l)th (No. 8).—' Urgent. Just 
received following from British Agent, begins 
— 'State Secretary has just been here and 
asked ma to send you the tollowiug mesna^je — 
*' State Secretary would be mucli obliged it he 
might be informed by Monday what decision, 
if any, the British Cabinet had taken." ' " 

That was received on October 1st, 
and a reply was immediately sent on the 
same day — 

" Urgent. Your telegram (No. 8) on the 
^th September, the answer to State Secretary 
should oe as follows — * The despatcli of Her 
Alaiesty's Government is being prepared; it 
will be some days before it is ready. ' 

That proves that the unfortunate Secre- 
tary of the Transvaal was eager to see 
the ultimatum of the British Govern- 
ment, and was eager to see if even at the 
eleventh hour the terms proposed were 



such as he would be able to recommend 
either to the President or the Raads, and 
to this hour, when tJho war has begun, 
the Transvaal has not known on what 
; terms they might have purchased peace. 
1 The sinister side of the picture is that 
I while the Government were taking time 
in not letting these people know on what 
terms they might have purchased peace, 
they called out the Reserves, and strained 
every nerve of this mighty Empire, and 
sent our men to the front in order that they 
might crush this unhappy people. The 
South African Republic were encouragecl 
to begin the war because they believed 
that Her Majesty's Government were 
witholding their ultimatum until they 
had such a force as would make all 
attempts to oppose it futile, and no one 
can say it is not futile. I turn for a 
moment to a letter from the Council of 
Uitlanders which is published at page 9, 
and which I only allude to as a sample 
of the language which is constantly used 
by these men, and adopted by the 
Government so as to justify this Govern- 
ment in accepting them as spokesmen of 
the Government. The letter is from the 
Chairman of the Council, and he says — 

" Under these circumstance? we are com- 
pelled to come to the conclusion that witli a 
five years franchise, and only live seats in the 
Volksraad, the Uitlanders would be placed in 
a helplass and contemptible position, and re- 
form from within would be an impossibility.*' 

And the policy of Sir A. Milner, which 
had been recommended as a panacea for 
everything, is declared by tlie Uitlanders 
to be a misfortune unless it provides a 
full catalogue of reforms. Those reforms 
are equal language rights, disarmament 
i of the Boer population and demolition of 
j forts, freedom of speech and of the 
, press (we have not got that in Ireland 
i yet), and the abolition of industrial mo- 
nopolies. Yet of all this avalanche of evils 
from which we are suffering, the indus- 
trial monopoly of Cecil Rhodes is the 
greatest. Look over the earth and you 
will see none that is worse. That is the 
modest catalogue without which the fran- 
chise would be a misfortune. How can 
we blame the Transvaal if they regard 
with suspicion and distrust the probity 
of a Government who have adopted as 
their organ in South Africa the South 
African League and Uitlanrlers' Council, 
and have conveyed to the people that 
their programme is the programme of the 
Government also ? Those are the reasons 



D 



First Day. 



99 



Address in Answer to { COM MONS ] 



the Qiieen's Speech. 



100 



why we are inflicting this war upon them. 
It has been said that this war is due to 
the aggression of the South African 
Republic on the dominions of Her 
Majesty. Is it not preposterous to say 
that a people numbering half the popu- 
lation of Dublin would deliberately and 
for the sake of conquest attack a nation 
of forty millions ? I consider that 
the South African Republic have been 
driven from pillar to post and harried 
and hunted until they have arrived at the 
conviction — a conviction which I fully 
share — that war was intended all along, 
and that, no matter what concessions 
they might make, those concessions 
would only be made the stepping-stone 
to further aggressions and demands. The 
question really becomes one not of 
greater or less rights to the Uitlander, 
but of whether they are to submit to the 
loss of that liberty for which the Boers 
have endured greater sufferings and done 
more heroic deeds than any people have 
ever done in the historv of mankind. 
This would never have taken place 
had it not been for the gold 
which was discovered in their country, 
and you would never have gone to the 
Transvaal. On more than one occasion I 
have drawn the attention of the Colonial 
Secretary to the status and treatment of 
the Indians in Natal. These Indians 
are as much Her Majesty's subjects as 
the Uitlanders in the Transvaal, but the 
Colonial Secretary has refused to bring 
any pressure to bear on the Natal 
Government to secure their fair treat- 
ment, because, the right hon. Gentleman 
said. Natal is a self-governing colony. 
If that policy is to hold good for Natal 
because it is a self-governing colony, 
why should it not hold equally good 
for the Transvaal, which is more 
than a self - governing colony, for 
it is an independent state ? It is 
all very well to glory and revel in the 
slaughter which our troops will inflict in 
South Africa, but it is only when, in the 
van of our conquering army, gentlemen 
like Mr. Monypennv, of Thr Ti/iu% who 
stipulated for £3,000 a year before he 
would leave Fleet Street to engage in this 
infamous conspiracy, and who, when 
the time came, fled across the border — 
it is only when in the van of our 
army these gallant heroes return to 
Pretoria and to Johannesburg that 
our real trouble will commence. You 
may hold the people down by force, but 

Mr. IHUon. 



three-fourths of them will curse your 
name, believing, as I believe, that you 
goaded this unhappy people into war for 
the purpose of robbing them of their 
country. On the 24th of April last I 
protested against the increase of the 
garrison of South Africa, and expressed 
my belief that that increase would lead 
not to peace, but probably to war. I 
see sitting opposite me a right hon. Gen- 
tleman who made a speech which iu- 
t3re8ted me verv much. What did he 
say ] He said we had to put down not 
only the Dutch in the Transvaal, but the 
disloyal Dutch in the Cape, and he was 
cheered from the benches opposite. I 
submit that when vou enter Pretoria and 
march in triumph over these people — who, 
I am sure, will make a gallant fight, for 
they were always brave — you will find 
that you have been fighting the battle of 
Mr. Rhodes and the gold fields, that 
millions have been wasted, and that this 
country has hung a millstone round its 
neck. Let me put this problem to the 
Government — either they must believe 
that Mr. Schreiner and the Cape Ministry 
are rebels and disloyal, or they must not. 
They have treated them from the very 
outset as enemies of the Empire and as 
disloyal men whose counsel ought to be 
treated with contempt. They first sup- 
pressed their opinions, and when, by force 
of questions in this House, they were pub- 
lishedj^^heviewsofCapeMinisters were given 
in small print and in places unworthy^of 
notice in the very same Blue Book where 
the preposterous speeches of the South 
African League and the articles of the 
Cape Times were recorded in the largest 
print in the most prominent pages. Either 
these Cape Ministers are disloyal men 
and enemies of the Empire, or they are 
not. You have treated them as disloyal 
men. They have protested against the 
whole course of the Government policy. 
But they were treate<^l with contempt 
from beginning to end, and you have 
carried this policy in the teeth of those 
who know the eountrv best, and who 
warned you that you were creating 
trouble and ill-feeling throughout South 
Africa. Yoi disregarded their views, 
and you have brought on this war, and 
this country will rue it in generations yet 
unborn. 

Mr. LABOUCHERE (Northampton) : 
I rise to second the Amendment of my 
hon. friend. I have put down an Amena- 



101 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 102 



ment of my own in somewhat similar 
terms ; in fact, the terms were so similar 
that were this Amendment to go to a 
division, I am sure you, Mr. Speaker, 
would rule mine out of order. I there- 
fore find it necessary to second the 
Amendment of my hon. friend. Last 
session my right hon. friend the Leader 
of the Opposition said that he considered 
there was no cause for war, and no cause 
even for the preparation of hostilities. 
My right hon. friend has taken a 
different view upon this occasion. 
He says that circumstances are 
very much changed since last session. 
At present we are at war, and that war, 
we are told, is the act of the Boers ; in 
fact, it is declared, the Transvaal have 
declared war upon us and not we on the 
Transvaal. I am not going into the 
origin of this dispute, nor am I going to 
follow all the phases of the diplomacy of 
the Colonial Secretary. I will only go so 
far Lack as I think will enable me to 
show that it is an entire error to suppose 
that the Transvaal Kepublic is responsible 
for the war. I say that we are respon- 
sible for it, and that it was the absolute 
act of the Colonial Secretary himself. 
On August 12, the Boers offered a scheme 
of arrangement which included a five 
years naturalisation law and francliise, 
and there were to be a greater number of 
members elected by the Uitlanders to the 
Volksniad than even was proposed by 
the Colonial Secretary or Sir Alfred 
Milner. The Boers agreed further,' 
should any dispute arise as to the scope 
of the law, that there should be a con- 
sultation with Her Majesty's representa- 
tive, and that Her Majesty's representative 
should bo aided V»y a legal adviser. All 
the other issues were to be submitted for 
arbitration pn vided that the question of 
the suzerainty was dropped and that we 
agreed not to interfere with the internal 
affairs uf the Transvaal. Sir, this pro- 
posal was refused by the right hon. 
Gentleman, and it was refused on account 
of the conditions attached to it. The 
Transvaal Government were under the 
impression that if they made this pro- 
posal, it would be acceded to by the 
Imperial Goverinnent. Certainly, I think, 
no one can read the despatches of Mr. 
Convn^ham Greene without seeincr that he 
himself was under the impression that 
Her Majesty's Government would assent 
to this proposal, and conveyed that im- 
pression to the Boer Government. When 



the terms were sent over to the Colonial 
Secretary, the right hon. Gentleman 
replied that if they were embodied in a 
scheme the Government would consider 
it upon its merits. If the Colonial Secre- 
tary intended to refuse to accept the 
scheme, he ought to have said so at once. 
The statement that he would consider it 
on its merits, coupled with the assurances 
of Mr. Greene, would lead the Transvaal 
Government to suppose that it would be 
accepted. I do not blame Mr. Greene 
for a moment ; I only say that the cir- 
cumstance was unfortunate, and tended 
to a great extent to increase the distrust 
the Boers evidentlv felt in reorard to the 
action of the Colonial Sectetary. Well, 
after further negotiations, which wore 
not of a very conciliatory character, on 
the part of the Colonial Secretary and Sir 
Alfred Milner, a despatch was sent to the 
Transvaal on the 25th September, which 
was practically an ultimatum to that 
Government. That despatch said that it was 
useless to further pursue a discussion on the 
lines hitherto followed, and Her Majesty's 
Government were consequently prepared 
to consider the circumstances afresh and 
to formulate their own proposals for a tinal 
settlement of the issues which had 
been created in South Africa by 
the policy constantly followed for many 
years by the South African Re})ublic, and 
thev would communicate to them the 
result of their deliberations in a later 
despatch. On the 9th October no 
despatch had been received indicating 
those views, although on the 3rd or 4tli 
President Kruger urged that he should 
know what were the terms to wdiich he 
was asked to assent. But while no 
despatch was sent, the Keserves were 
called out at home, Parliament was called 
together, and additional troops, although 
there were already large numbers sur- 
rounding the Transvaal, were sent 
hurriedly to Natal. The Boers, there- 
fore, were in this position— drastic de- 
mands had been miwle to alter entirely 
the relations which existed between tht t 
Government and ourselves. Meanwhile 
j it was openly asserted in our newspapeis 
— I suppose this will not be denied by 
the Colonial Secretary — that it was in- 
tended to enclose the Boer territory in a 
circle of iron, and that terms would be 
submitted to them when the Colonial 
Secretary chose — that is to say, when this 
chain of iron had been forged, and when 
it >\as perfectly obvious to everybody that 

D 2 First Dx 



103 Aihhess in Jnsicer to {COMMONS 



fhr Qifeen's Speech 



104 



they must either accept our terms or go to 
war. Tliev had the choice between war 
and surrender at discretion. But although 
tlie Boers mav l)e our enemies at the 
present time, let us be fair to them. If 
thev had deemed this an attack on their 
independence, and had determined to 
fight rather than surrender, they would 
be utter fools if thev had waited 
until the right hon. Gentleman's 
troops had arrived in overwhelming 
numbers and occupied the passes into' 
their country. It is not fair to say that 
the situation has been changed by the 
Boers declaring war on us. I assert that 
the Colonial Secretary practically de- 
clared war on the Boers by sending 
them an ultimatum, the terms of which 
they were not prepared to accept, 
and therefore they were justified in 
anticipating events and in doing their 
best to occupy the passes leading to their 
country. It is perfectly true that the 
Colonial Secretary guaranteed the inde- 
pendence of the Transvaal, but there may 
be differences of opinion as to what that 
independence was. The complaint of the 
Boers w^as that the Colonial Secretary was 
attacking their independence. If the 
Colonial Secretary had angled for an 
opportunity to throw the odium of the 
actual outbreak of hostilities upon the 
Boers in order to get up public opinion in 
favour of this war, he could not have 
chosen a better mode than he did on this 
occasion. I do not blame the Boers for 
-an instant ; and I see the right hon. 
Gentleman the Member for Bodmin [Mr. 
Courtney] has said that he could not 
blame them. We really cannot in com- 
mon fairness l>lame the Boers or throw 
upon them the responsibility of actual 
hostilities. But what was the Boers' reply 
to the Colonial Secretary's despatch? They 
replied to the proposal by offering arbi- 
tration, and they declared that unless this 
were accepted, or in the interval, pending 
receipt of conditions, .more troops were 
massed, they would consider themselves 
at w^ar with us on account of the ulti- 
matum that had been sent to them. It is 
the common practice of countries who are 
inclined to go to war to throw the odium 
of actual hostilities upon each other. The 
House will remember that it was the 
habit of Prince Bismarck. He did so in 
the case of the German- Austrian war. He 
did it in the case of the French w^ar, 
actually boasting that he had induced the 
world to believe that that w^as the case, 

Mr. Labouchere. 



and that a prejudice had been created 
against Fmnce in consequence. As the 
Leader of the Opposition truly says, the 
important fact at the present moment is 
that war now exists. And the practical 
question is, How are we to end it 1 Now, 
the Government have a plan, and that 
plan is supported l)v many hon. Gentle- 
men. The Government sav, " Let us end 
it by sending out such a crushing force to 
the Transvaal, and wiiniing such a victory 
that we shall be able to dictate terms to 
the Boers." For my part, I think if we 
could find a better plan, a plan involving 
less bloodshed and no discredit to the 
country, it should be adopted in prefe- 
rence. At the present moment I have 
really not the remotest idea for what 
we are fighting. I have listened to 
the speech of the Leader of the House, 
expecting that he would have told us 
what we were fighting for. He did not. 
We are certainly not fighting for the 
franchise. The Boers would be pleased 
to give the franchise, and to give more 
than we ask. We are not fighting for our 
rights under the Convention, because the 
Boers have agreed to accept to the full 
the Convention under which relations are 
established between them and us. We 
are not fighting for the interpretation of 
the Convention, because both we and the 
Boers have agreed to refer the question of 
interpretation to arbitration. The only 
thing that we are fighting for is a general 
recognition of the right of suzerainty or 
paramountcy in South Africa. The hon. 
and gallant Genthmian who so eloquently 
moved the Address this evening said that 
we were fighting for equal rights and 

?rivileges for everyone in South Africa, 
have often heard this stated, and it has 
become a catch-phrase on the part of those 
who are in favour of the war, but I should 
like some gentleman to explain to me 
precisely what is meant by " equal rights 
and privileges." In Cape Colony no man 
can be naturalised without the consent of 
the Colonial Governor. There is no 
general law of naturalisation there. Any- 
one going there has to apply for natura- 
lisation, and it is granted or not granted. 
As far as I can understand it, the Boers 
have agreed to grant a naturalisation law 
in regard to Englishmen and all other 
foreigners coming into their country pre- 
cisely on the lines of our own naturalisa- 
tion law. I therefore do not understand the 
meaning of the phrase " equal rights and 
privileges in South Africa." The real 



105 Aiidresa: in Jnsurr to {17 October 1899} the Queen s S;)ee It. 106 

reason why we are fighting was stated by due and adequate cause — I go further, 
Sir Alfred Milner at the conniiencenieiit without absohite ciuise — to convert the 
of the dispute in the telegram which he whole of South Africa into a battlefield. 
sent to England, and which was published It may l)e an edifying lesson to the blacks 
at once by the Colonial Secretary. After who are in all {)arts of the world to see 
charging a large number of tlie Capa two white races as if they were savages 
Dutch with disloyalt}', he said a striking the»iiselves. It seems to me very doubt- 
proof was desirable of the intention of ful whether the blacks will not follow the 
Her Majesty's Government not to be | example of the whites and themselves 
ousted from its position in South Africa, engage on one side or the other. 
If that is really what we are fighting for, And can we l)lame them ? We 
it has very little to do with the franchise, send out missionaries and talk about 
It is, in fact, intenderl to show the Boers, religion and our civilisation. Can we 
not only of the Ti-ansvaal but in our blame them if they follow our example 
other colonies, that they have whit is instead of our ])recepts ? It cannot be 
vulgarly termed — though I really think denied that the Boers have the right to 
it is a good deal the feeling of hon. look with some distrust upon the action 
Grentlemen opposite and of many in the of the Colonial Secretary. On a previous 
country — "got too big for their breeches," occasion we acknowledged and .Nlr. Glad- 
and that the Anglo-Saxon lace must | stone admitted that we had unfairly 
remain paramount in South Africa. As I tricked them out of their independence, 
to the policy of this war, I might quote and on this ground we gave it to them 
hundreds of passages fiom the speeches | back again. Then there was the Jameson 
of the Colonial Secretary. My right Raid. I am iiJt going to enter into the 
hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition ■ whole question of the Jameson Raid — 
quoted one passage, ])ut tliere are many , Heaven forbid— but it certainly was not 
otheis on the same lines. We all know , likely to create confidence in the policy of 
that the Orange Free State has thrown in ' the right hon. Gentleman, supported as it 
its lot with tlie Transvaal. It must be j was by Mr. Rhodes and the South African 
remembered that only a few months ago League, and when the Colonial Secretary, 
President Steyn expressed a desire to avoid I after reporting against Mr. Rhodes, got 
war. It was due to him and to Mr. up in this House and said that Mr. Rhodes 
Schreiner, the Premier of the Cape, that was an honourable man. The fact that 
many concessions were made liy Pres!- Mr. Rhodes remained a member of the 
dent Kniger, and.it does seem somewhat Privy Council was a standing disgrace 
striking that President Steyn should, to us and a cause of legitimate 
after having done his utmost to prevent , suspicion on the part of tho;e people, 
war, have thrown in his lot with the Rightly or wrongly, they perfectly believe 
Transvaal uidess he honestly and really that their in<lependence was being 
believed that the indepjndcnce of these , attacked ; they are fighting for whjit 
two Republics was menaced l>y the action ' they believe to 1).' a just cause, and, even if 



of the Colonial Secretary. N\ e know 
perfectly well from the Blue Books that 
again and again the C.ipe Ministry, 
who represent the majority in the 
Gape Legislature, haxe urged us to 
do everything to come to some com- 
promise to prevent war, because they 
know that the majority of the people in 
the colony are Dutchmen, that up till 
now thev have been perfectlv loval to the 
Crown, and that thev have no desire to 
be disloyal, l)Ut that they have the 

* ' ft 

wfirmest sympathy with their friends in 
the Transvaid, and fear that disloyalty 
may be creat.'d amongst them it we treat 
the Trans Vtiid in a cruel or unfair manner. 
Justice, humanity, and policy alike dictate 
the wisdom of stopping this war. It is 
to my mind perfectly hor'/il^le, without 



they are in error, we must admit that it 
is one of the holiest and most noble of 
causes that an}' country could fight for — 
that which it believes to be its independ- 
ence. I know that at the present 
moment all these co:isiderarions are 
drowned in the beat of the war-drum. 
That is always the case. I have 
seen that ))efi)re. At the time of the 
Crimean War we all shouted ; I 
remember 1 myself shouted and felt very 
valorous when the Guards were going out 
to the Crimea. 1 did not trouble myself 
whether the war was just or unjust, 
politic or impolitic ; 1 was as big a fool iw 
are the greater number of the gentlemen 
who are now clamouring for this war. 
Therefore I do not ])ay much regard to 
this feeling of the numient. The feeling 

Fii'M Jhiff. 



107 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} 



the Queen's Speech. 



108 



with regard to the Crimean War very soon 
disappeared ; we began to doubt whether 
we were wise in embarking upon it, and 
by the end of the war the country was 
determined to have peace, and even 
Gentlemen on the other side of the House 
I believe will admit that a greater mis- 
take was never made in this world, 
and that a more foolish war was never 
waged than that of the Crimea, about 
which we all shouted as we are shouting 
at the present time. But, Sir, I do not 
think this war is popular. The press has 
done what it could to make it popular, 
but it has not succeeded. I was opposed 
to the ultimatum which we sent to France 
a little while back, but I perfectly 
admit that I was in a very small 
minority on that occasion. I believe that 
that war, if France had not yielded, would 
have been popular ; but that is not the 
case now. There is a feeling in the 
country that if there had been no gold in 
the Transvaal there would have been no 
war ; that if there had been no Khodes 
there would have been no war ; that if 
the right hon. Gentleman opposite had 
devoted his eminent talents to some other 
sphere of usefulness than the Colonial 
Secretaryship there would have been no 
war. I believe positively that if the 
negotiations had been in the hands of 
Lord Salisbury at the Foreign Office 
there would have been no war. There is 
an unsavoury feeling over the whole of 
this business. There has been a great 
deal too much of the Stock Exchange 
element in the matter. The people may 
be right or they may be wrong, but they 
do not see where they are profited in it, 
and they cannot help asking themselves 
whether it is wise to go to war in order that 
a number of Uitlanders in the Transvaal 
may l)e enabled — as the right hon. Gentle- 
man well put it — to cease to be English- 
men. We have questions about these 
unfortunate Uitlanders being overtaxed. 
Are they overtaxed ? They are making 
fortunes beyond the dreams of avarice. 
They may be taxed heavily ; but the 
ganger, the engineer, or the skilled 
artisan who goes out there pays hardly 
any taxes at all. One of these, men will 
get about £30 a month, while he can live 
on £6 or £7 a month. The taxes on 
articles of primary necessity are lower 
than in either the Cape or Natal. The 
idea cf these men is to make their £30 a 
month, to put by £200 or £250 a year, 
and then in three or four years to return 

Mr. Lahouchere. 



to their own country. I contend it is an 
insult to the honest respectable English- 
men out there to say that they are ready 
to bargain their nationality for a Boer 
vote. They will have nothing to do with 
this mess of pottage. They were per- 
fectly satisfied with the position they 
hold there ; they were perfectly satisfied 
with their lot : and they intended to 
come back to England. The only Uit- 
landers — and I admit there were griev- 
ances — who really were in favour of this 
war were those millionaires, those owners 
of mines, who wanted to reduce the taxa- 
tion upon the mines, and their jackals 
and toadies, who are obliged to agree with 
them to avoid losing their situations. I heard 
only the other day from a gentleman of 
^outh Africa, who said it was a wondrous 
thing to hear these Uitlanders who had 
been driven out of the State speaking of 
what had occurred. They complained 
bitterly. Of whom did they complain ? 
Of President Kruger ? Not a bit of it. 
They bitterly complained of the Colonial 
Secretary, and Sir Alfred Milner, and the 
capitalists. They were trapped and fooled 
into this. They were in the Transvaal 
making money, and they wanted to con- 
tinue making money, and to go on as they 
were. It is the greatest possible mistake 
to suppose that the mass of the Uitlanders 
of English nationality in the Transvaal 
ever really complained, beyond that sort 
of complaining in which every Englishman 
indulges, or that they do not regret that 
their avocation, their honest work, has 
been interfered with on account of this 
turmoil and trouble which has been caused 
by the Colonial Secretary, Sir Alfred 
Milner, and the capitalists. It seems to 
me that we are reallv bound to make an 
effort. We boast of being a Christian 
and a civilised nation ; then why in the 
world do we refuse to go to arbitration, 
for which President Kruger has always 
asked, but which has been refused on the 
technical plea that we have a suzerainty 
over the Transvaal, or that we are the 
paramount Power in South Africa? In fact, 
we refuse to arbitrate because, we say, the 
Transvaal is a vassal State. The Trans- 
vaal is not a vassal State, although I do 
not agree with President Kruger in think- 
ing it is an independent sovereign State. 
The Colonial Secretary has, however, admit 
ted in his own despatches that this country 
is a foreign country. We have again and 
again recognised the expediency, the 
wisdom, and the justice, when two nations 



109 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 110 



fall out over matters which do not affect 
their honour, of referring the question to 
independent arbitration rather than re- 
sorting to war. If then this is a foreign 
State why should you not agree to go to 
arbitration ? I go further. Suppose the 
Transvaal is a vassalStato, and that we are its 
suzerain, are the relations of a suzerain to 
a vassal State so extraordinary that while 
we agree to arbitrate upon questions in 
dispute with a foreign country, we will 
not arbitrate upon a question in dispute 
between us and a State over which we exer- 
cise suzerainty ? I cannot understand 
why not. In trade disputes we are always 
urging workmen to go to arbitration. It 
is said, " Oh, but the war has broken out, 
and we cannot arbitrate now." Why not 1 
In a trade dispute war ha3 generally 
broken out, but we urge the men not to 
go on injuring themselves, but, having 
seen their folly, to agree to arbitration. 
I can understand that if a foreign 
country had declared war upon us 
and crossed our frontiers arbitra- 
tion would be difficult. But, it must be 
remembered, this is not a great Empire 
from whom we have any danger to fear. 
There are 30,000 or 40,000 farmers, all 
told — about as many men as are found 
in a medium-sized English town. It is a 
medium-sized English town against the 
greatest and mightiest Empire the world 
ever knew. No foreign country would 
accuse us of pusillanimity if we were to 
suggest arbitration. It is a case in which 
we can afford to be magnanimous, because 
we are so very much stronger than our 
opponents. The Boers are perfectly 
aware that they cannot hold their 
own against the entire might of this 
Empire, and that we must conquer. If 
we go on it will mean a great deal of 
bloodshed both on our side and on 
the Boer side, and we will have all 
the misery of war thrown upon South 
Africa. I admit that in the end we shall 
conquer, but my contention is that the 
war is so impolitic, that the animosity 
between the two races will then be so 
aggravated, that our victory will do us more 
harm than if we made some reasonable 
arrangement at the present time. What 
did we do two or three years ago? The 
House will remember how English news- 
papers and various hon. Members preached 
the necessity of going to war about 
some bogs in Venezuela, and it was with 
the greatest difficulty the Government 
were induced to agree to arbitration. 



Arbitration has taken place, but I should 
like to know how many people care about 
what part of the bogs belongs to us 
and which to Venezuela. The only thing 
all sensible men can say is that it is a 
very fortunate thing we did go to 
arbitration rather than to war about such 
a cause. If in regard to Venezuela, why, 
in the name of common-sense, not in 
regard to the Transvaal 1 Take the case 
of Canada. Hon. Gentlemen will remem- 
ber that hostilities went on between the 
Anglo-Saxon and the French races in 
Canada. We said : " The Anglo-Saxon 
race must be paramount ; we must 
crush out the French race.'' But owing 
to the wise policy pursued by Lord 
Durham things toned down, the two races 
were induced to cease hostilities, and 
peace, quiet, and good feeling have 
reigned between the two races ever since. 
It is said, " We will have no Majuba 
again." For ray part, I regard Mr. Glad- 
stone's action in regard to the Majuba 
Treaty — in coming to an agreement with 
the Boers to make peace, because he would 
have no more share in the bloodguilti- 
ness of fighting on the wrong side — 
was one of the noblest acts in a 
noble life. But here there has been 
no Majuba. There has been no great 
action on either side — although there has 
been a little fighting on both sides which 
has only shown that both are stubborn 
and both are brave. There are those 
who hold that when once the sword is 
drawn by England the decision must 
be by the sword, but that was not the 
view, and never has been the view of 
our best statesmen. During the French 
Revolutionary wars it was urged that 
because we were at war we ought to go 
on with war, but Mr. Fox and the Liberals 
of those days always opposed that view, 
and urged that steps should be at once 
taken to put an end to war and establish 
peace between France and Eng- 
land. Then, the Crimean War was 
opposed from beginning to end by 
Mr. Bright, who, holding that the war 
was unjust, refused to have anything to 
do with it. It is a perfectly new doctrine 
to us that when we are engaged in an 
unjust war we ought to vote supplies to 
carry out that war, if the enemy is weak, 
by crushing him. I hold to the good old 
doctrine, that if we are engaged in an 
unjust and impolitic war we ought to take 
the earliest opportunity of endeavouring 
to arrive at a peaceful [settlement with 

*First Day. 



Ill Address in Answer to { COMMONS} 



(he Queen's Speech. 



112 



our enemies. It may be asked, " Who 
would arbitrate ? " I leave it to the 
Government. I could name half a dozen ; 
arbitrators in a moment. Why not take ' 
President McKinley I He is very friendly 
towards us. He was asked to interfere ; 
in this Transvaal matter, and replied — 

" I will not offer arbitration unless I am 
asked by both parties." 

What was that but an invitation on the 
part of this worthy and practical Presi- 
dent of the United States to arbitrate ? 
It was practically telling us that he 
thought arbitration would be the wisest 
and most just course to pursue. It is 
absurd to say that in these matters we 
cannot find a fair arbitrator. Once you 
agree to the principle, there will be no 
difficulty about finding an arbitrator. 
What are we to arbitrate about? I 
would have it on the largest and widest 
reference — not merely whether or not we 
are suzerains, or whether or not we can 
do this or that under the Convention, 
but on the broad lines of devising some 
scheme which will protect the honour and 
interest of the Empire, of South Africa, 
and of the Transvaal. If that were pro- 
posed I am perfectly certain war would at 
once cease. '' But,' you say, " troops are 
already on our territories." Of course, the 
first step would be that the Transvaal 
troops must withdraw into the Transvaal. 
Then there would be a suspension of hos- 
tilities, and it does seem to me that if 
during that time you could not arrive at 
a reasonable understanding by direct 
negotiations you ought to do it by 
arbitration. At present, to say the 
leist, the issues about which we are 
fighting are not clear and definite. 
There never was a stronger case made 
out for arbitration than there is in regard 
to this most unfortunate war. We are 
acting against our own interests. Our 
right to interfere in this matter is and 
has been doubtful. Everybody, including 
the Attorney General, will admit that. 
[The Attorney General intimated his 
dissent.] We have everything to gain by 
showing all foreign nations that if we do 
claim supremacy over the seas we are 
never eager to make our law the law of 
the world, and that we are never ready to 
substitute might for right. I believe if 
we were to arbitrate in this particular 
cause we should g\\e suoh an impetus 
to the V. hole principle of arbitration that it 

Mr. Libou here, ' 



would go very far to put an end to- 
war in the future. The Colonial 
Secretary has told us again and again 
that if we do arrive at fighting this out 
to the bitter end we shall create a state 
of things in South Africa the embers of 
which will not be extinguished for many 
generations. Surely justice and policy 
and every other consideration ought to- 
induce us to come to some sort of 
aiTangement, and the only arrangement 
I know of is to go to arbitration. Whe» 
I read that the soldiers are cheerfully 
rallying to the colours I honour them for 
responding to the call of duty ; I know 
perfectly well they will maintain the 
noble traditions of their race, but I cannot- 
help feeling what a sad thing it is- 
that these vounoj fellows are some of 
them to come back maimed, for no 
earthly reason that I can see, for a war 
that is forced upon us and upon the 
Transvaal by the Colonial Secretary him- 
self, and which might have been avoided 
again and again by fair negotiations or 
arbitration, and which might be stayed 
even now by arbitration. I confess that 1 
feel sorry for the end of these unfortunate 
Boers. They are fathers of families, they are 
fanners, honest, and ignorant if you like ; 
they are fighting for that which they 
believe to be the holiest and most noble 
of causes— their homesteads and their 
countr}'' — and we must all regret not only 
that their country is turned into a battle- 
field, but that a number of these men, the 
breadwinners of families, will be slain. 
For my part I cannot accept the 
responsibility of contenting myself with 
merely washing my hands of an injustice 
like this. It may be a very politic thing 
to say, " There is a feeling in favour of 
war ; I protest against it ; I have pro- 
tested against it, but I wash my hand» 
of it, and shall criticise, hereafter, the 
conduct of the Colonial Secretary." I 
have not criticised the conduct of the 
right hon. Gentleman in this matter, 
except indirectly, because that is not the 
question of the moment. The question 
is to do the best we can to put an end to 
this war, and that is why I have seconded, 
and why I would venture to urge the 
House to agree to, the Amendment which 
has been moved, because then the war 

would cease in a very few days. 

» .. 

Amendment proposed — 

" At the end of the Que^stion, to add the words,. 
'But we humbly represent to your Majesty 
that the state of war now cxi.^ing between 



113 Addre^ in Answer to {17 October 1899} f he Queen's Speech, 11^ 



Great Britain and the South African Ke|mblic 
has been caused by the assertion of claims to 
interfere in the internal government of the 
Republic in direct violation of the terms of 
Your Majesty's Convention of 1884 with the 
Government of the South African Republic ; 
and by the massing of large bodies of British 
troops on the frontiers of the Republic. And 
we further humbly represent to your Majesty 
that before more blo>odshed takes place pro- 
poeals should be made in the spirit of the 
recent Peace Conference at the Hague, with a 
view to finding in an independent and friendly 
arbitration a settlement of the difficulties 
between the two Governments, and that an 
imiominious war may thus be avoided between 
the overwhelming forces of your Majesty's 
Empire and those of two small nations 
numbering altogeiher but two hundred 
thousand souls. * ' — ( Mr. Dillon . ) 

Question proposed — " That those words 
be there added." 

♦Mr. DRAGE (Derby) : The hon. 
Member who has just siit down has chal- 
lenged the Members on this side of the 
House upon a number of distinct points. 
It might possibly ])e thought that it was 
not the duty of hon. Members on this 
side of the House to take up such a chal- 
lenge had it not been for the hon. Mem- 
ber s reference to the foreign, colonial, 
and the American press. If such a chal- 
lenge is not taken up it may be concluded 
by the foreign press and by the Irish 
papers that no answer can he given to the 
allegations made. Upon an occasion of 
this kind one would be glad to avoid 
matters of personal controversy amongst 
hon. Gentlemen opposite, and I will 
use my best endeavours in the few 
remarks I make to say nothing that 
can give any cause for offence 
to those hon. Members opposite who 
from patriotic motives are supporting the 
Government upon the present occasion. 
I will deal first with the grievances of the 
Uitlanders. The hon. Member for East 
Mayo stated that the only grievance 
which had been laid down bv the Duke 
of Devonshire was that connected with 
the franchise, and he said he would be 
glad to know what the others were. In 
regard to numbers the Uitlanders repre- 
sent between one-half and three-fourths 
of the population of the Transviial, and 
although they pay from five-sixths to nine- 
tenths of the taxation of the country, they 
have no share in the government. With 
regard to this question of taxation, I may 
point out that it has been laid down in 
the Blue Book that the taxation paid by 
the Uitlanders is £16 por head, and 90 



per cent, of the Uitlanders are British 
subjects. With regard to freedom of the 
press, such a thing does not exist in jthe 
Transvaal. According to the Press Law 
of 1896 read in connection with the 
amending law of 1898, the President of 
the South African Rcpul)Iic can forbid 
the circulation of printed matter at his 
discretion, and it is within his power to 
prohibit the circulation of any newspaper 
he chooses. Open-air meetings can only 
be held with the sanction of the Govern- 
ment, and indoor meetings can be broken 
up by order of the police in terms of the 
law. Next I come to a grievance which I 
should have thought would have touched 
and appealed to the sympathies of hon. 
Members opposite. In answer to a ques- 
tion which I asked in July last, the 
Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs: 
stated that under the constitution of the 
Transvaal no Roman Catholic can ever be- 
admitted to l)e President, or a member of 
the Executive Council, or a member of 
either of the Raads. The right hon. 
Gentleman also added that he thought 
this law for the exclusion of Roman 
Catholics applied to officials as well. I 
know some people give another interpre- 
tation to that, but I believe it is a fact 
that no Roman Catholics are appointed a» 
officials in the Transvaal. The hon. 
Member for East Mavo has referred to» 
finance. Now it is admitted even ])V the 
inquiries which have been conducted by 
the Transvaal Government that the 
administration of the finances is bad and 
corrupt, and that there is no proper 
system of audit or control. On this point 
we have the report of the Inspector of 
Offices in 1897, in which he states that 
the defalcations of officials amounted to* 
£18,590, and only a few hundreds had 
been recovered. Between 1883 and 1898^ 
the debates in the Volksraad show that 
on advances to officials there is no less 
than £2,398,500 unaccounted for. So' 
much for the finances of the Republic. 
There isanother question which I think will 
appeal tohon. Gentlemen opposite, and that 
is the administration of the Licjuor Laws. 
The Liquor Laws were {wissed in 1897,. 
but thev were habituallv evaded. Lender 
those laws only 88 licences were 
allowed in Johannesburg, but as a. 
matter of fact no less than 438 licences 
were granted. A Trans vfuil Commission 
have reported on this subject, and 
they point out that this abuse of the 
Liquor Lv.vs h.i^' resulted in the niin of a. 



1 15 Addveis in Ansicer to {COMMONS} 



the QaeerCs Speech. 



116 



large portion of the native population, in 
disease, accidents in the mines, and other 
crimes, and the Commission also point out 
that from 30 to 40 per cent, of the native 
population employed in the mines are 
incapacitated owing to this abuse of 
the Liquor Laws. An attempt was 
made by one of the most enlightened 
of the Boer leaders in the Transvaal 
Republic, who saw the blot this was on 
his native country, to remedy it. 

Mr, DILLON : What about the Liquor 
Laws here ? 

*Mr. DRAGE : That is not the point, 
for I am now dealing with the Transvaal. ! 
The next grievance is that connected with 
the appointment of judges. The judges 
are all subservient to the President, and ' 
can be dismissed by him at pleasure, and, \ 
in the words of the present Chief Justice, i 
the oath which they are called upon to I 
take is one which no man can take with , 
self-respect. Perhaps hon. Gentlemen ^ 
opposite are not aware that there is no 
trial by a jury of his peers for the 
Uitlander. Then there is a very import- 
ant grievance with regard to the adminis- 
tration of the police. I am not going to 
refer to any controversial subject, and I 
am not going to touch upon the Edgar 
trial, but I think the case of the murder 
of Mrs. Appleby shows that intense hatred 
was caused by the denouncement of the 
abuses to which 1 have referred, and it 
also shows that murder can be committed 
under circumstances in which it should 
have lieen easy to apprehend the mur- 
derer. Then there is the treatment of I 
British coloured subjects in the Transvaal 
under the pass law. It is well known 
from such cases as that of the action 
of Field-comet Lombaard that the police 
can enter houses without a warrant, and 
can treat people with the grossest bru- 
tality, and though temporarily dismissed 
in consequence, afterwards be reinstated. 
This is a very serious hardship for British 
subjects, and it is an infringement of 
their rights under the Convention of 1884. 
Another hardship is caused by the Alien 
Expulsion Act of 18UG, under which the 
President has power to expel any 
Uitlander without any trial w^hatever. 
The hon. Member for East Mavo must 
not complain, because he has challenged 
us to give these abuses, and what I am 
giving are all to be found in the Blue Books 
With regard to commandeering, hon. 

Mr. Drage. 



Members opposite are aware that the Trans- 
vaal Government has claimed the right in 
time of war to seize the property of British 
subjects and to levy a special war tax 
upon them. It is perfectly true that 
objection was taken to this by Sir 
Henry Loch, but we have seen within the 
last few weeks what can be done under 
that law\ Then, again, neither the hon. 
Member who moved the Address or the 
hon. Member who seconded referred to 
the languages taught in the schools. 
Although the English language is gene- 
rally used, yet it is forbidden in public 
schools, and the regulations are such that, 
out of £63,000 which is raised in Johan- 
nesburg, only £650 is spent on British 
children, and no grant is made to the 
voluntary schools, which are some of the 
most excellent schools in the Transvaal. 
They are conducted in some cases by the co- 
religionists of the hon. Member opposite, 
and if he had seen them I am sure he 
would be one of the first to call for a fair 
grant from the Transvaal. Then there 
is the dynamite monopoly, upon which I 
will not lay stress, because it is one 
which affects the capitalists, and hon. 
Members are open to reply that the 
capitalists are able to bear the burden. 
There are, however, other monopolies 
which affect the Uitlanders in the 
Transvaal, such as the monopolies of 
matches, papers, chocolate, wool, starch, 
mineral waters, soap, oils, and other 
articles w^hich hon. Members can find 
meniioned in the Blue Book issued by 
the Colonial Secretary. There is another 
grievance in regard to the municipality of 
Johannesburg, where there are 23,000 
Uitlander electors to 1,000 Boers, and yet 
the Boers elect an equal number of mem- 
l)ers, the chairman of the Council has to 
be a Boer, and the decisions of the Council 
when arrived at are subject to confirma- 
tion by the Executive. The municipality 
of Johannesburg has less authority than 
the old Sanitary Committee, and even a 
drainage concession has been given to a 
private person. These are the principal 
grievances, and I think the House will 
agree with me that they are worth 
putting on record in connection with this 
debate. There is also the question of the 
franchise, to which the hon. Gentleman 
referred, but I will not now go into the 
details or the controversial points con- 
j nected with it. In 1874, under the Boer 
I Convention, the franchise could he ob- 
\ tained after one year's residence without 



Drought it about were not * birds of passage.' 
These people are the mainstay of the reform 
movement, as they are the prosperity of the 
country, and they would matce excellent 
citizens if they had the chance." 



117 Address in Answer to {17 OCTOBER 1899} the Quern's Speech, 118 

real estate. In 1882, after the first Con- 1 protection and redress of their grievances. 

v^ntion, it required five years' residence j On that point I should like to call the 

and registration. I may point out that | attention of hon. Members opposite 

the registration since then has become to a passage in Sir Alfred Milner's 

more and more complicated, and at the despatch. He say^ — 

beginning of the present year it took \ ..r. - -ir i • r .u ^ xu ^ 

*/x«,w..^«^ ,r^««c A..^:,.^ f«r.j,.« ^f «.u,-«u It IS a wilful perversion of the truth to say 

fourteen years, during tweh e of which | ^hat it is the work of scheming capitalists anS 

the candidate was neither a Boer nor a professional agitators. The persons who 
British subject, to obtain the franchise. »--'^"-^»* ^•^ «v>«.,f «,«^« — *^.t.:«.i., ^e ^««« — » 

Anyone who reads the law passed in the 

present summer on this point will come to 

the conclusion arrived at by Sir Alfred 

Milner that under the present law it ' ^, tt- i_ i-. 

remains within the power of the Trans- ' ^^^ ^ig° Commissioner goes on to say— 

vaal Government to refuse the franchise " The case for intervention is overwhelming. 
to anyone, owing to the extremely com- i The only attempted answer is that things will 
plicated regulations and conditions which T^^^\ themselves if left alone. That policy 

are attached to it. Although I condemn ^)?f„^^f,„^'A!:^„ ^i^T. '^ ^'^^ ^^"^ ^ 

J , , , , T» °i ^ them gomg from bad to worse. 

and deplore the Jameson Kaid as strongly 

as any one, I should like to call the Hon. Members opposite are asking by 
attention of hon. Members opposite to i what right are we interfering, but I 
the fact that from the year 1892 on- would remind them that the Colonial 
wards a succession of appeals have I Secretary in 1895 gave a pledge to the 
been made by the Uitlanders to the i Uitlanders. He said in a despatch to 
Transvaal Government for a redress Lord Rosmead — 

of their grievances. In 1892 the first, ,,rp.^ ,.^^^i^ ^p T^v.or.«^K«^« uiA ^^«r« 
, -Py. ^. 111 1 Ine people or Jonannesburg laid down 

freat public meeting was held, and a their arms in the belief that reasonable con- 
eputation conveyed to the President of cessions would be arranged by our interven- 
the Republic the resolutions which were tion, and until these are granted or definitely 
passed. The answer of the President was j promised to you by the President the root 
*7 J. ' J.' r I • 1 .. n 111 I cause of the trouble remains, 

characteristic, for he said : " Cease hold- 
ing meetings and be satisfied. Go back The hon. Member opposite who moved 
and tell your people I shall never give the Amendment now brought forward 
them anything. 1 shall never change ' practically represents the view taken in 
my policy. Now let the storm burst." ! the ultimatum of the Transvaal Govern- 
In 1894 there was another petition to the ment, for they say that the English 
Raad for the franchise, signed by 7,000 ; Government has no power to intervene 
people, and that was rejected. In 1895 i after the signing of the Convention of 
there was a petition for the franchise, 1884. 1 would point out, however, that 
again signed by 13,000 persons, and after | so long ago as 1877 a very different state 
a debate that was also rejected with ' of the law was laid down by the then 
ridicule. As far as Johannesburg is con- j Colonial Secretary, and it has been re- 
cerned it is really doubtful whether the paated by Colonial Secretary after 
people there were aware of the Raid, at Colonial Secretary since that time. At 
any rate they were not responsible for it ; ! that time the right hon. Gentleman the 
but both Ixjfore and since that time there present Chancellor of the Exchequer 
have been many acts of constitutional wrote as follows — 
a^tation, and it is a mistake to represent „. , . . , ^ , , i 

that the Uitlanders have not taken the , " The power and authority of England have 
v**«w vx*v -^iwicvi* V. , , • I • ^" J . long been paramount, and neither bv the Sand 

constitutional steps placed within their Kiver Convention of 1852, nor at any other 
power. Of course when the appeal to the j time, did Her Majesty's Government surrender 
Transvaal Raad failed the Uitlanders i the right and duty of requiring that the 

petitioned the High Commissioner and , J/^°^^«^^ "*'^^1^, ^ P;.^^°^'^'^^^^^^ 

fV "^, rni ^ . • • I the common safety of the various European 

the Queen. 1 here was a petition in re- ; communities." 

gard to commandeering. There were 

two petitions made in the present year — I am not going to-night into the details 

one in regard to the murder of Edgar, of the questions connected with the 

which was rejected on account of an in- suzerainty, although I think that by 

formality, and the other was a petition, quotations which I could make from the 

signed by 21,000 persons, dealing with Blue Books a very good case for the 

Firsi Day, 



119 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech. 120 

Government could be made out. I will, must have been. Sir Alfred Milner went 

however, base my case upon what was out there sympathising, I believe, with 

laid down nearly forty years ago by a the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite, 

great authority. I refer to the case of and also with the Dutch population. I 

Don Pacifi CO, and the declaration made by believe he was a man of Radical views. 

Lord Palmerston as to the treatment of but he has in a most bitter time and 

British subjects in foreign countries, through a great crisis carried out the 

Some hon. Members opposite have used duties of his high office in a way which 

the argume nt th^t because people belonged is well worthy of a public sen'ant. 

to the criminal class we should not extend > Hon. Members opposite have given us 

to them the protection of Great Britain, their ideals of peace and honour, let me 

This is what Lord Palmerston laid down tell them that our aspirations are no 

upon this subject. He said — less lofty than their own, but is it conceiv- 

«Ti . ixTAr»-ii.i- ^ aWe that if their views of the facts were 

1 do not cae wliat Don Pacin:;os character . ^ ... ,.i ^ _„„ «^i^«:^„ 

ia. I do not and cannot admit that because a correct free communities like our colomes 

man may have acted ainists on some otlier occa- would have lent us a hand m this war if 

sion, and on some other matter, lie is to be they had not believed, what we believe at 

wronge<l witli impunity by others." ^\^q bottom of our hearts, that this 

Hon. Members opposite have gone further, is a war of democracy against oligarchy ? 

and thev say that it is not fair for this ^^^^ believe on this side of the House 

countrv to use the strength of a great ^^^t we are going to remove oppression. 

Empire against a smaller countrv. There and that we are going to set up equal 

is in Lord Palmerston's speech a striking laws for all men. This is a war which 

passage upon this point. He said— ^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^ ^V^J^ "^ and now we 

have entered upon it I hope that the 

" Oh, Imt it is siiid, what an ungener »U8 Government will see that the result will 

proceeding to employ so lar^e a force against ^^q that from one end of South Africa to 

so smaU a iK>wer 1 Does the smallness of a ,, ^, , , , ,.^ -ii i 

country justify the masnitude of its evil the other freedom and equality will be 

acts ? Is it to^ be held, if your subjects suffer established among all men. No one can 

\iolence, outrage, and plunder in a country read the history of the past without feeL 

TOTcora»en^a\''"'''^'^*^'*^ ^"^ ^^® profoundest sympathy for the 

pe s>a ion . Dutch. I have spent much time in that 

Hon. Gentlemen opposite will see that country, and I did all I could to arrive at 
there are two sides to this argument. ^\^. ^J'^^ [^^,^i ?^ i^\^^^^ ^ \^^^^^ '''f^f 
Lord Palmei^ton laid it dovni, and it has ^^'*^^^^ ^ }^^^ ^ ^^P^^^ )'*^^^ ^^^ gi-eatest 
ever since been upheld in this country, ^^^^' *^^ ^ ^^^'^. ".^ hesitation m stating 
^jj^^ ^ ^ here my conviction that the policy 

I adopted by Her Majesty's Government is 

"A Britisli suhject, in whatever land he may the only one which it was possible to take 

be, shall feel confident that the watchful eye up. They prosecuted their policy with 

Sinln^-trL. utri""'" '•"'*''' ''" the utmost patience, in fact I believe that 

they pushed patience to the verge of 

I feel that in answering the arguments of weakness; and now that they have 

the hon Meml)er fur East Mayo I have entered upon this war I hope they will 

trespassed to<> long upon the indulgence of be rewarded for their long patience by a 

the House, but as 1 pointed out at an speedy and successful issue, 
earlier stage, the arguments of the hon. 

Meml)er will l»e published in the Irish ♦Mr. DAVITT (Mayo, S.) ; The hon. 
and American papers, and if they are Member who has just sat down has made 
allowed to go unchallenged the hon. an interesting speech, and he has not in- 
Member for E«ist Mayo will be represented troduced any bitterness into his observa- 
as the only honest man in the House, and tions. He has retailed for us a number 
it will be siiid that there is a " conspiracy of drawbacks to the constitution of the 
of silence ' )»et ween the two front benches Transvaal, and he has enumerated a 
on this subject. I do not like to sit number of grievances which the English 
down without paying the tribute of my residents in the South African Republic 
heaitiest admiration to the courage with complain of. But surely these are all 
which the High C'ommis.sioner has carried matters relating to the internal affairs of 
out the policy of Her Majesty's Govern- the Transvaal, and Her Majesty's Govern- 
ment. 5so one kiiows what his anxictv mcnt arc bound by the term-, of the Con- 

Mr. Drnqe. 



121 Addre^ssin Jnswer to {17 OCTOBER 1899} the Queen's Speech. 122 



vention of 1884 not to interfere with 
what concerns only the internal Govern- 
ment of the Trans vaiil. There is one 
answer to the contention of the hon. 
Member, and it is this : President Kruger 
virtually conceded everything asked for 
by the Ui danders, when he was told that 
there were other demands, not alluded to 
in the Conference with Sir Alfred Milner 
at Bloemfontein, which would be sprung 
upon him. And surely in that condition 
of things the hon. Member has failed to 
make out any justification whatever for 
the extreme step taken in forcing the 
South African Republic into hostilities. 
The hon. Member — in order, I presume, to 
embarrass us on this side of the House- — 
referred to the exclusion of Roman 
Catholics from certain posts in the Trans- 
vaal. This solicitude for the rights of 
Roman Catholics is not altogether above 
suspicion. The Transvaal Republic is a 
Protestant country, and not a Roman 
Catholic country. Its constitution was 
drawn up not for a mixed population, 
but for a people holding practically the 
same faith as the hon. ^lembers opposite. 
Now, if I contrast it with Ireland, which 
is a Roman Catholic country, I find that 
in Ireland no Roman Catholic is allowed 
to fill the office of Lord Lieutenant. I 
believe there are not less than two 
millions of Roman Catholics in England, 
and yet in the constitution of this free 
and very enlightened country Her 
Majesty — I believe very much against 
her own will — was obliged to take 
a coronation oath that fundamental 
tenets of the Roman Catholic faith 
were " false and idolatrous." Presi- 
dent Kruger was never compelled to 
take a bigoted oath of that kind. It 
is rather strange to hear the appeal for 
justice on behalf of Roman Catholics in 
the Transvaal coming from those who 
deny to Roman Catholics in Ireland the 
right of university education there. The 
hon. Member has referred to the base and 
cowardly and infamous murder of Mrs. 
Appleby. He cannot condemn that in any 
stronger language than we do. She was 
a courageous temperance reformer, and the 
theory is that she was murdered by the 
brothel-keepers of Johannesburg, all of 
whom were Uitlanders. There is one 
Member of this House who is known to 
be a vehement supporter of the present 
policy of Her Majesty's Government, 
but whose name has not been mentioned, 
and therefore sufficient justice has not 



been done to him. I refer to the hon. 
Member for Sheffield. He has been a 
consistent and, I believe, an honest enemy 
of the Transvaal in the past. He ought 
to be a proud man to-day, when he finds 
that the Colonial Secretary, the majority 
of this House, and the majority of the 
people of Great Britain have adopted his 
policy ; and I hold that he should be 
called upon to direct this policy. As I 
have the honour to represent a consti- 
tuency which was the first in Ireland 
to condemn the war policy of the Colonial 
Secretary, I support the Amendment of 
my hon friend. Upon the war which 
that policy has provoked the whole world 
outside of jingo circles and stock-jobbing 
rings cries " shame," and I am proud of 
the fact that Ireland's voice is raised in 
that indignant chorus of condemnation. 
It is a war without one single redeeming 
feature, a war of a giant against a dwarf, 
a war which, no matter what its ending 
may be, will bring neither credit nor 
glory nor prestige to this great British 
Empire. In the words of the Colonial 
Secretary, spoken in this very House, 
only three short yeara ago — 

" A war in South Africa would be one of the 
most serious wars that could possibly be 
waged. It would be a long war, a bitter war, 
and a costly war, and, as I have pointed out 
already, I believe generations would hardly 
be abfe to blot out the memory of it ; and to 
go to war with President Kruger to enforce 
upon him reforms in the internal afiairs of his 
State, in which Secretaries of State standing 
in their place have remidiated all right m 
interference — that would l)e a course of action 
which would be immoral." 

These just sentiments, so clearly expressed, 
are the standing justification of the action 
of those who think and speak now as the 
right hon. Member for West Birmingham 
spoke and thought three years ago. And 
never, surely, in the annals of British 
statesmanship has there been such a strik- 
ing example of political inconsistency as 
that exhibited between the past views, 
conclusions, and declarations of the Colo- 
nial Secretary and his recent language 
and attitude on this very Anglo-Transvaal 
issue. Of course it is sought to be made 
out that President Kniger'a ultimatum is 
the cause of the present hostilities. No- 
body outside the jingo circle is deceived 
by that flimsy contention. It would be 
like saying that a householder who has 
had his dwelling attacked by the same 
burglars on two or three occasions pro- 
voked bloodshed by his conduct in wam- 



123 Address in Aiiswei' to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech. 124 

ing them, when seen gathering round 
the premises again with jemmies and 
tools in their hands, that he would 
lire upon them if they did not retire. 
The real ultimatum was given in the 



not resist, but they yielded under protest to 
superior force, and from iliat day no Boer in 
South Africa has been able to trust to English 
promises." 

What is this but a picture of the present- 



despatch which declared that Her day policy of the Colonial Office and of 
Majesty's Government would negotiate \ the campaign of falsehood against the 
no more for terms of settlement, but i Transvaal, urged by The Times and the 
would formulate their own demands. ! other Yellow Press organs of jingoism ? 
What was that but a virtual declaration | Continuing his indictment of England's 
of war, backed as it was by the constant I bad faith, the historian further said- 
sending of masses of troops and war - We have heaped char^^es of foul dealmg on 
material to South Africa by every avail- the unhappy Free State CJovemments. We 
able ship ? Worse if possible than this have sent menacing intimations to both of 
shameful war itself is the hypocritical i i^^^J?' as if we were <leliberately making or 

«««+^««« 4i,n+ ,•,. ,*« fr.^^r.A ^^^.^"^ T7„^i A finding excuse to suppress them. It has 

pretence that it is forced upon England I ^^^^^ painfully clear to me that the English 

through her desire to obtain justice for i Government has been milled by a set of bor- 
Uitlanders in the Transvaal. A more ' derland jobbers into doing an unjust thing, 
transparent sham than this assertion was | ^^^ "P, to now equally difficult to resist and 

never invented as a cloak for unrighteous j ^^.g^Nval'^U^^'ctse't^^^^^^ 
aims. It history closed her pages, and broken a treaty which they had renewed but 
men's memories were deadened by the j one year before in a very solemn manner, and 
clamour of the jingo press, this shameless ' ^^^ tolonial Office, it is painfully evident to 
per^^ersion of truth might deceive ignorant ; ;j;^'J^;^®^ Ir^^ duped- by a most ingenious 
minds, as it does unfortunately blind 
millions of the British people to the truth 
in this instance. But neither history 
nor the testimony of Englishmen is 
silent on the past policy of English 



conspiracy. 



In the present instance the Colonial Office 
has not been duped by an ingenious con- 
spiracy. According to Mr. Stead — and 
there is no more patriotic Englishman alive 
jingoism in South Africa. What we i — he has had it from the conspirators of 



are seeing to-day in the propaganda of 
the war party is but a repetition of the 
bad faith and shameful calumnies of the 
past towards these same Boers. The 



the Jameson Raid that the Colonial 
Office was the headcjuarters of the con- 
spiracy which has now succeeded in com- 
pelling the British Empire to finish the 



late Mr; Froude, who will not be accused work which Jameson and Rho<les failed to 

of want of patriotism for England, and carry through in December, 1895. W^hat 

who, I believe, is the favourite historian failed then will, of course, succeed now, 

of the jingo party, writes as follows in i but a generation of Englishmen will arise 

"Oceana" of England's previous bad faith who will be ashamed, as the civilised 

towards the Boers — world is to-dav, of the Government which 

,m . , ^i ^ ^ r *i. 1 XT .1 ^as sanctioned this monstrous outrage 

*The ink on the treatv of Aliwal North n .• u- u l j 

wiis scarcely dry when diamonds were dis- HP^" \ "^ '" }^ ^^^ ^^"® 

covered in large quantities in a district which Mgland no wrong. Small in number, 

we had ourselves treated as part of the Orange weak in resources, though these people 

territory before our first withdrawal, and are, yet you cannot fight them fairly. A 

which had ever since Injen administered by 'j: ,• J. ^r i • • i - ^ j.\. 

Orange Free State magistrates. There was a ^ampaign of lying is urged against them 

rush of diggers from all parts of the country. "^ your Press, while you are sending out 

There was a genuine fear that the Hoers would your soldiers to destroy their liberty, 
be unable to control the Hock of vultures i Lies about outrai^es on women, lies about 

which was cathenng over so rich a prev. r>^^ a ' * • 

There was a notion also that the fin^t Boers firing on trams carrying women 

diamond mine in tlie world ought not to be and children, lies about l»intal attacks on 

lost to the British Empire. It was discovered defenceless Uitlanders, and everv other 

that the country in which it lay was not part kind of cowardlv cabimnv have been 

S^^'^S^'^liSf-'nir l^^^Zt i-ented day by May in the Khodesian 
This chief in past times had been an ally of reptile Press, and repeated and 
the English. The Boers were accused of commented upon bv the no less 
having robbed him. He appealed for help, and : reptile jingo organs of London. And 
in an ill hour we lent ourselves to an aggres- ,v I'o o xxr^r^ tV^Z r^..r.T^o.^..f..rl o,^! T^^^ 
sion for which there wa.s no excuse. Tord I ^\ l^ ^ ^"^^l ^^]^''. propagated and pre- 
Kimbeiley gave his name to the new settle- Cipitated that Irishmen are expected to 
ment. The Dutch were expelled. They did support, and for the cost of which we 

Mr, Davit, ' 



125 Address in Ansiver to {17 October 1899} the Qmen's Speech, 126 

shall be compelled to contribute. Let me the testimony of manly and honest men 

give one instance of these infamous in- with English names. Here is that of one 

ventions for inflaming popular passion Englishman, who knows the truth and 

against the Boers. The Daily Mail of speaks it fearlessly. In an interview 

yesterday says — with Mr. Frank Watkins, not Watkin- 

..mi i-i m ^ . t ^x, nr 1 stciu, au cx-Britlsh member of the 
"The Cape Town correspondent of the iurtw tt- n j i.- i i • ^i. n -7 
says the rumour that Mr. Greene halbeenmur- Volksraad, which appeared m the Daily 
dered by the Boers on his way from Pretoria Chronicle on the 5th of this month, we 
obtained an extensive hold here, and created read the following refutation of slanders 
much excitement. The rumour was eventually gpoken outside and in this House- 
traced to a London source. '^ 

"'And what of liis Government? Is it so 

The rumour traced to London. Yes, to corrupt as they say ? Is it corrupt at all ? ' 

the offices, probably, of the South African '* 'No Government is absolutely pure. There 

T «««,,« . ♦/ ♦■k^ v^ii^«r P,.«oo ..^^v«o r^f are Parliamentarv directors and shareholders 

Leagiie; to the Yellow Press rooms of at home who are not entirely above reproach. 

the Globe, and Daily Mail, and J tines There may be something of the same thing in 

of forgery reputation. The truth is always Pretoria. Some few members of the (iovem- 

late in a race against a lie, but it arrives ment may have profited among many Uit- 

4r 1 «4. «n 4.u^ ««.«« ««ri cr^ ii- A^^c, i« 4-\^ic landers by the immense enrichment of the 

at last all the same, and so it does m this ^^ ^jf^^^^j^ . ^^^^^^ ^^^ concessions. But 

instance,^ asjt has m every ^ other case there is no proof of direct corruption. Mr. 

/ear, 
with 
,,--„-.- ^ ^ ^ e r^ gold on it for £100,000, and it is now capital- 
read the following statement from Cape fsed at a million and a half. Had he not a 
Town, which 1 will quote for the perfect right to do that ? Are your Ministers 
benefit of the veracious Mail — corrupt because they receive big salaries ? Is 

Sir Michael Hicks- Beach corrupt because he 

c. rx ^ r. 1- XT r* 1 r^ sold his cstate ou Salisbury Phuu ? ' 

"October lo.-Mr. Conyngham Greene wa.s ..g^^. ^.j^^ Raads-are not they corrupt? 

shown every civihtv on his journey from Pre- ^j^ gm^ Oriffiths in the House of Commons 

tona Six men o! President Krug,er « body- ^^j^ ^^^^ twenty- two members of the Kaad 

guard accompanied him as far as the Trans- ,^^^ y^^^ proved "^to be corrupt.' 

vaal border and tlie I;ree State authorities «- That was the accusatioiUut what, again, 

were equally courteous. ^^^ j.,^^ ^^^g, I caused a Commission to b^ 

appointed to inciuire into tlie allegation, and 

And this is only a sample of scores of the result was that all the members accused 

instances in which monstrous charges were exonerated. He forgot to mention that. 

have been insinuated against this little Then why these accusations ? The accusations 

*\ , ,. .^1 ^v 1 • ^ r are made by the very people who tried to cor- 

Repubhc with the object of pre- rupt the Boers-an<l failed. A fund of £25,000 

cipitating a war of plunder and was subscribed by a certain ^^roup of men to 

revenge. What else it is but a war pass certain legi«*lation~an(l it was not passed, 

waged for millionaires and for " Majuba " ? H®"<^® ^he mortification. ' " 

Who are the head and front of the Uit- rpi • • r -i. i . .1 • 

1 J -4. *.-^ 7 tr^«^ „»,^ ^^.^ r,„^^o r.i ihere is a nng of veracity about this 

lander agitation ? Here are the names ot^^ ..u-u iiu . • 

some of the " fine old English gentlemen " statement which would shame a certain 

for whom the British Einpire ts going to "i^«^"t V'^Tft ^" ""/u''*'^ ^'"'"""'t 

war. Thev are nearlv all millionfires ^^ October 4 there are the views of 

and leading Uitlanders-Beit, Wernher, *"°*h'^'' Englishman, who says- 

Eckstein, Rouilot, Baniato, Adler, Lowe, " For my own part I must say that \ have 

Wolflf, Goldmann, Neumann, and Goertz. not a high opinion of these people when they 

I wonder how manv of these millionaire ^^^^P ^^^ manner. After getting up their 

f TT M •" ^ ' i^^ X petitions and meetmgM, and making all thm 

masters of Her Majesty s (rovernment are f^^^ j^ or^er to get IJritlsh interference in 

now at the front with your soldiers to face their behalf, they turn tail as soon as the 

the music ? Let me, however, do justice music seems about to start, leaving the place 
to one for whom 
He may escape from 
I believe he is in a v*^. 

to Mr. Rhodes, who has had the courage fall by their cause. I am much afraid that 

to face the music in Kimberley. But then they are are only a lot of windbags after all, 

, . . uv 1 1 . Til J A • and have no Hrue leaders of men amonifst 

his name is Rhodes, and not Khodes-stem. t;henj." 

As against these, and the falsehoods of 

their paid scribes in the London and And, as a fitting comment upon these 

South African Press, there is not wanting indignant sentiments, there is the piece 




127 Addre,'^s in Answer to { COxMMONS } 



the Queen! s Sjyeech, 



128 



of news which appeared a few days ago 
in the Press. It reads as follows — 

"Telegram from the Special War Corre- 
spondent of the Echo at Cape Town. — The 
Uitlanders here are now quietly leaving the 
future in the soldiers' hands. Two thousand 
■more refugees are exj)ected immediately. 
Miners prefer har-lo.ating to volunteering. 
Trouble is possible here wlien their money is 
•all spent. There is a considerable rise already 
in the prices of the necessaries of life." 

And these are the " oppressed" Uitlanders, 
the " down-trodden " British subjects, for 
whom your soldiers are to sacrifice their 
lives, and for whose criminal antics Irish 
taxpayers must pay. Sir, I am on the 
side of right against wrong, of justice 
against injustice, of the weak against the 
unscrupulous, every time and everywhere, 
let the combinations be who they may. 
England is not my country, but even if 
sh« was, I would not side with her if she 
acted the part of a big bully against a- 
plucky little man defending his own 
against overwheming odds. Though I 
am an Irishman, I spent most of my life 
in Lancashire, and while Lancashire exists 
it will exact from me a tribute of admira- 
tion. There a bully who would strike a 
man who was not his equal would be 
•called a coward. My sympathies and 
those of the overwhelming mass of my 
countrymen, outside of the British 
•Colonies, are on the side of justice, free- 
dom, and humanity in this monstrous, 
unequal war. It is a very serious matter 
for me to find that Irishmen who are 
Home Rulers in Canada, Australia, and 
South Africa are siding with you, because 
you have conceded Home Rule to them. 
Let me say this for myself, that this com- 
pels me to take a somewhat different view 
of Home Rule than I have done. If I 
thought that the concession of Home 
Rule to Ireland to-morrow would involve 
me in giving my sympathies to England 
in a war of cowardly injustice and 
tyranny, I would cease to be a Home 
Ruler at this moment. Whom are you 
hurling your mighty armaments against 
in this miserable conflict ? Why, against 
men of your own religion, race, and blood. 
Listen to one of them speaking for his 
people — 

** We will tight until not one Boer remains 
to defend our Hag and our country ; our women 
And children will tight for their country and its 
liberties ; and even I, an old man, will take 
the gun which 1 have used against them twice 
before, and use it again to defend the country 
I love." 

Mr, Davitt. 



May I ask what would English papers 
and politicians say if similar sentiments 
were spoken by some other noble old 
man fighting against Russian, German, or 
French aggression ? What praise, what 
sympathy would be lavished upon such 
an exemplar of heroic patriotism ? But 
because England, not France, is the 
aggressor, Mr. Kruger is an enemy to be 
dealt with bv Mark IV. bullets and 
Lyddite shells. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, 
I have spoken amidst some interruption, 
but I make no complaint. I recognise 
I am speaking in an alien assembly. 
I am called a traitor by the hon. 
Member for West Belfast who is not 
in his place, and by the London Tivus, 
because my sympathy goes out to a small 
nation of your own blood and faith, whom 
you intend to rob of its independence ; 
because I side with a people less in num- 
ber than the population of Birmingham, 
in a contest forced upon them by the 
Member for Birmingham in the name and 
by the resources oi the British Empire. 
Very well, if that is to be a traitor, then 
I feel more honoured in the title than if 
I were called the Colonial Secretary of a 
Government who will have the blood of a 
brave race and of your own soldiers upon 
his head. I have not, however, a mono- 
poly of the title " traitor." The honour 
can be shared by no less a person than 
the central figure in this war tragedy, the 
Secretary of Slate for the Colonies, whom 
his present nominal chief, the Prime 
Minister, once termed a Jack Cade. This 
historic personage was both a traitor and 
a reputed robber, and yet the statesman 
whom the Marquess of Salisbury likened 
to Jack Cade is now the jingo hero of the 
hour. I find myself, therefore, in most dis- 
tinguished company. It is only the other 
day that a present Prime Minister of the 
Queen was referred to as follows by the 
Sun newspaper, owned, I believe, by an 
hon. Member opposite : — 

"Mr. Schreiner, Cape Premier and Boer 
Agent, will be lucky if he does not hang from 
a Cape Town lamp-post before long. That 
would be a iustifiable form of elevation for him, 
one which he has fairly earned." 

I am in distinguished company. Mr. 
Gladstone w^as once called a traitor by 
the same class of Englishmen. So it has 
been with other men who have raised a 
voice against aggression and injustice. 
Washington was called a traitor in his 
day, so was O'Gonnell, and so, too, 



129 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Sjyeeck 130 



was the late Charles Stewart Parnell. 
Therefore I feel honoured in a special 
sense in being singled out for this dis- 
tinction. For myself, when I die I aspire 
ijo have no better epitaph than this : — 

"Here lies a man who from his cradle to 
liis grave was considered by his foes to be a 
traitor to alien rule and oppression in Ireland 
and in every land outside her shores." 



Mr, LOWLES (Shoreditch, Hagger- 
ston) : I wish to challenge one statement 
made by the last speaker. He said that 
outside this House the feeling of the British 
people was overwhelmingly against this 
war. Now, I called a public meeting 
last week in the constituency which I have 
the honour to represent, and at- that 
gathering a resolution was unanimously 
passed in support of the Government, 
those in favour of it belonging to both 
•sides in politics. The hon. Member for 
East Mayo referred to some remarks I 
made with regard to disloyalty in Cape 
•Colony. When I made those remarks I 
had recently returned from that part of 
1>he world, and what I said was that if there 
were any disloyal Dutch they would have 
to be dealt with as they deserved. But I 
-did not suggest that the majority were in 
any sense disloyal. I believe that they 
recognise the advantage of British rule 
And appreciate the personal liberty and 
equal rights which they enjoy under it. Any 
ihon. Member who has travelled in South 
Africa will know that the feelinij against 
Kruger is just as strong amongst the 
Dutch Cape Colonists as it is amongst the 
British Afrikanders. With regard to the 
remarks of the hon. Member for North- 
ampton, how is it that he asserts here 
what he dare not say outside 1 How is 
it he is not to be found in Trafalgar 
Square and Hyde Park on great public 
occasions ? 

Mr. LABOUCHERE : I shall be happy 
-to go down with the hon. Member to 
Northampton to test public feeling there. 

Mr LOWLES : And I shall be equally 
iiappy to go with the hon. Gentleman. 
And for this reason, that we represent 
very much the same class of people in 
this House. I believe the great majority 
of the constituents of the hon. Member 
are engaged in the boot and shoe trade. 
So, too, are the great majority of mine, 
-and I am therefore perfectly ready not 
only to meet his constituents, but to 

VOL. LXXVII. [Fourth Series.] 



invite him to meet mine. I am certain 
that where public opinion, especially in 
industrial centres, is tested fullv nine- 
tenths of the artisan class will be found 
approving the policy of the Government. 
The hon. Member objects to our fighting 
a small State. I object to allowing a 
small, stubborn, and ignorant minority of 
the white population to keep South 
Africa in a state of unrest for twenty-five 
years. The Dutch population of both 
Republics form a very small minority of 
the whole white population — probably 
not more than 25 per cent. — and why 
should that small minority keep this pro- 
I gressive part of Her Majesty's dominions 
I in a perpetual state of unrest ? Much as 
I I regret that this war has been forced 
I upon us, I believe that it is perhaps the 
I best way out of a very serious trouble, 
' and I trust that when the Government 
I come to discuss terms after the war is 
i over they will, once and for all, put an end 
' to the independence of these Republics — 
1 an independence which has been a con- 
stant menace to the safety, happiness, and 
welfare of Her Majesty's subjects in that 
: part of the world. I repeat that I am 
ready to accompany the hon. Member for 
Northampton to any place where honest 
English public opinion can be tested, 
because I believe that such opinion wijl 
be found to be unanimous in support of 
I the policy of the Government. 

xMr. WILLIAM REDMOND (Clare, 
E.) : I desire to say a very few words in 
support of the Amendment of the hon. 
Member for East Mayo, and I do so for 
two or three different reasons. In the 
first place, I handed in an Amendment of 
my own on somewhat similar lines, 
and as that will probably now be ruled 
out of order, this aflfords me the only 
opportunity of saying what I have 
to say. Again, I consider it would be an 
extremely cowardly thing upon my part 
to say one thing in speeches in Ireland, 
and to refrain from saying the same 
thing in my place in the House of Com- 
mons. I have noticed for some days past 
references in many of the London news- 
papers to speeches of mine in Ireland, 
and all I have to say, in reply to those 
references, is that I am here in my place 
in the House of Commons perfectly pre- 
pared to bear out, and, if necessary, to 
repeat every single word of sympathy 
with the South African Republic and . its 
people which I uttered in Ireland, and 



E 



^v 



^/»»/ 



131 



Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech, 132" 



which I believe to be shared by an over- 
whelming majority of the Irish people. 
I read in one newspaper a statement that 
it was not consistent for any Member of 
this House to object to the Vote which is 
about to be asked for for the prosecution 
of this war. I venture to assert that I 
have as much right, under the con- 
stitution by which I am here, to 
express disapproval of that war as 
hon. Gentlemen opposite have to express 
approval of it, and if you are going to 
call Parliament together to discuss the 
prospects of this war, and to ask for a 
Vote of money, and at the same time 
refuse a hearing to those who disapprove 
^he policy of the Government, then I say 
that the calling together of Parliament 
at all is simply a farce, and an outrage on 
the constitution of this country. Why 
am I on the side, as unquestionably I am, 
of these two small Kepublics fighting for 
their independence ? First, because 1 
believe, as conscientiously and sincerely 
in my heart as hon. Gentlemen opposite 
hold their beliefs, that this is a fight for 
liberty and justice on the part of these 
people, and because I object, as an Irish- 
man, to taking any part, however slight, 
in defraying the cost of this war, or lend- 
ing any sanction to it. I know that great 
enthusiasm exists in England on the sub- 
ject of the war. I know that the masses 
of the people cheer the troops when they 
are seen in the streets, but I also know 
that the people of this country do not 
understand what this war means. They 
have been told it is a war against the 
burghers of the Transvaal and Oranse 
Free State, who cannot put into the 
field a force anything like as strong as 
the British forces which have been dis- 
patched against them. They are told that 
in a month or two these States will be 
reduced to submission, and that every- 
thing will then be well. Now, I have 
been to the Cape myself, and I venture to 
say there is no man who has ever been 
there who does not know that, in enter- 
ing on this war, England is not merely 
underta.king the task of subjugating the 
burghers of two small Republics, but that 
she is also entering into antagonism with 
a people who are to-day a considerable 
majority of the white inhabitants. 

Sir J. MACLURE (Lancashire, Stret- 
ford) : No. 

Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND: An 
hon. Gentleman cries "No." Can any- 

Mr. JFilliam Redmond. 



one who knows the facts deny what I 
say? 

Sir J. MACLURE: I do. 

Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND: The 
hon. Gentleman, who is so very popular,, 
will, when he wake* up now and asain,. 
deny anything. I repeat that nobody 
who knows the facts of the case can deny 
that the majority of the white inhabitants 
of the whole of South Africa — of Cape 
Colony and Natal as well — are men of tna 
Dutch race. (" No.") Well, at any rate 
you have a Dutch Ministry at the Cape 
of Good Hope, and your Prime Minister 
there is Mr. Schreiner, a Dutchman. I 
repeat that, in entering upon this war, you 
are 1x>und to create feelings of antagonism 
against your rule and agai ns t your Empire in 
the breasts of the majority of the white 
men there. You may be told that they 
will not interfere actively in support of 
these small Republics, but, after all, blood- 
is thicker than water, and feelings of re- 
sentment and indignation are bound to be 
roused among the Dutch all over South. 
Africa when they see a huge Army Corps- 
of the first military power ip the world 
launched against a mere handful of their 
own countrymen, with a view to driving, 
them into subjugation. I say here, 
speaking with some knowledge of the 
inhabitants of the Cape, that if this war 
is prosecuted, and if you 1)eat the Trans- 
vaal and the Free State,, if you kill-evQry 
man in them capable of 1>earing ann» 
against you, you will not be able, as long, 
as Members of this House live probably,, 
to withdraw your Army Corps from South 
Africa ; it will have to remain there in 
order to keep in su1)jugation the men of 
the Dutch race, who are disaffected 
against you. And I would add that this 
is a poor return for the generous and 
loyal treatment accorded to you by the- 
Cape Parliament, which is composed 
mostly of Dutchmen, in granting you a 
subsiay for your navy. Much has 
been said as to the grievances of the 
Uitlanders, but I defy anyone to prove 
that, outside the question of the 
franchise, these men have suffered 
any serious or real outrage or disability. 
A great deal was made some time ago of 
the killing of an Uitlander by a policeman 
at Johannesburg, and the indignation of 
the country was aroused; but the real 
grievances of the Uitlanders can be 
counted on the fingers of both hands. It 



133 Address in Anm-er to {17 October 1899} the Queeji's Spe^rh. 134 



is complained that they are denied the 
right to vote. It is true that some time 
ago the number of years a man must 
reside there before he could vote was 
fourteen, but that term was reduced some 
years ago to seven, and Her Majesty's 
Government asked for five. After some 
delay this was agreed to, with conditions, 
and I assert that this coming war is to be 
waged because of a difference of opinion 
between five years and seven. In this 
country you compel a foreigner to live six 
years before you give him the franchise 
and a vote, and l)ecause the Boers 
will not allow five years you are 
going to war. Who are the Uit- 
landers ? No one in this House more 
condemned the Jameson Raid than 1 did. 
It was an unwarranted and criminal pro- 
It^eeding, but after all there was a ceitain 
amount of pluck about it. Jameson and 
his few untrained men were given to 
understand that the Uitlanders of Johan- 
nesburg would meet them— they out- 
numbered the Boers fi\'e to one — and 
enforce reforms. At this time the Uit- 
landers were fully armed, and at this time 
Johannesburg was unfortified by the 
Boers. Jameson, on the fivith of the pro- 
mise of these valiant Uitlanders, marched 
in with his men, and what happened ? 
Not a single one of the Uitlanders went 
out to meet him ; they went and hid them- 
selves and allowed Jameson and his men 
to be seized by the Boers and brought 
to Johannesburg and cast into prison. 
They are a brave people, truly. I have 
heard of people with grievances, but 
never before have I known of men with 
arms in their hands who would not fight 
to remedy their grievances. I should 
like to hear what Jameson has to say df 
those who sent for "Dr. Jim," and did 
not lend a hand to help him. 

Sir ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT 
(Sheffield, Ecclesall) : They only had 2,000 
rifles among them. 

Mr, WILLIAM REDMOND : But even 
so omnipotent a general as the right hon. 
Grentleman must be aware that some- 
thing may be done by men who know 
that others are on the road to help them, 
though they only have 2,000 rifles among 
them. These are the men for whom 
you are going to vote eight millions 
to-morrow — and who can say it will not 
be fifty millions before we have finished? — 
whilst in this country there are thousands 



of people in the direst poverty, but you 
have not a million to help them, not a 
farthing, but you may spend fifty millions 
in subjugating a people who have never 
injured England. What is the history of 
the Boers T Some people imagine that 
the whole world originally ))e longed to 
England, and no doubt, in a fit and 
proper state of things, if everything 
had been properly ordained, that would 
have been the case ; but we must not 
forget that the forefathers of these men 
now behind their guns were the original 
colonisers of South Africa. They it was 
who first brought white 'men to 
the Cape of Good Hope. From time 
to time you have hunted them out, 
but it was theirs before an English foot 
trod South Africa. Pushed from the 
Cape, they trekked, time after time, until 
when they had crossed the veldt they 
were told they could rest, and would be^ 
molested no more. When they went 
into the country and enriched it and 
built their towns they were followed by 
people from the outside, and now again 
they are going to be denied the land 
which they have carved out of the wilder- 
ness, and we are told this is to be done in 
the interest of the Empire. It is tho 
worst thing that can be done, and to say 
that these two little countries are to be 
crushed in the interests of liberty is a 
thing no intelligent man can for 
an instant believe. There is now 
a state of war, and we are told the 
Liberals and Tories unite, and I am sorry^ 
to s;iy in regard to English Liberalism 
that is largely true, because there are 
people on the front Opposition bench who 
say that it is an unjust and an unneces- 
sary war, yet they will vote for the 
Government. Let Liljerals and Tories da 
as they will ; thank God there are in this 
House a few men who, undeterred by the 
laughter of hon. Gentlemen opposite, will 
register their votes against this measure. 
Hon. Gentlemen talk a1x)ut the oath of 
allegiance. Am I to l)e told that any- 
thing in this House or out of it binds a 
Member to vote and speak for a 
measure which in his heart he considers 
unjust? If my oath required me to 
support every measure submitted by 
the Government it would be a very 
sad thing for my oath. A Unionist or 
even a jingo Government supported by 
Liberals with Conservative opinions on 
Imperialism might command some re- 
spect, but surely it is a sorry spectacle^ 

E 2 First Day. 



135 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} ths Queen's Speech. 



136 



and not calculated to inspire respect, to 
see a Government led and pushed and 
dragged along into a disastrous war, not 
by a Conservative statesman, but by a 
man who in turn has been everything in 
degree. I remember years ago, before I 
entered this House, studying the different 
leaders of this great assembly, and when I 
•entered this Hoiise, sixteen or seventeen 
years ago, I asked my father near me 
who the various persons were.. He 
pointed out one after another, and then 
he pointed to a lean man with a spare 
and hungry look. I asked who that was, 
and heard he was a very celebrated 
man. He was a great Republican. He 
it was who made speeches to and led our 
young " Reds." Sixteen years after I find 
the Republican orator of that day, the 
man who was considered the leader of the 
young "Refis" of England, climbing up 
on the Treasury Bench, Toriest of the 
Tories, dragging his Party to disaster. 
With the might of England at his ^^ack 
the once Republican turns out as Conser- 
vative as his Tory companions. When 
his story is written nothing will be more 
discreditable than to know that the man 
who hurled the force of English might 
against these two small Republics was a 
man who was a Republican in his younger 
<lays, when no country gentleman would 
touch his hand. I apologise for detaining 
the House at such •! length, though 
I may tell the hon. Gentlemen who cheer 
the remark, I do not apologise in one iota 
for anything I have said against this man, 
either in Ireland or in this House. I 
opposed the war in Ireland because I 
think it is unnecessary and unjust, and is 
against the spirit of liberty. The man 
upon whose head will be the blood of 
every British soldier who bites the dust, 
the man whom the widowed women of 
the Dutch race will teach their children 
;to curse, is the man who, under the power 
•of an overweening ambition — an ambition 
seldom coming to gentlemen, but to 
people of that class who aspire to mix 
with them 

Mr. SPEAKER : That is not a cour- 
:teou8 or proper way to speak of a Member 
of this House. 

Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND: Mr. 
Speaker, I have not the slightest intention 
of disobeying your ruling. At a moment 
like this, I think that if an expression is 
used which is not altogether suited to the 

Mr. JrUliam Redmond. 



place, one might to some extent be 
excused, for I am not one of those who 
enter upon this work with a light heart. 
(Ministerial laughter.) If hon Gentlemen 
opposite were shut up in Mafeking they 
would not be laughing. If they were in 
Kimberley they would not be laughing. 
Those take it with a light heart who do 
not go to the front; they are like the 
valiant Uitlanders, who, having raised a 
storm in Johannesburg, storm all the 
trains to get out. The man on whose 
head the bloodshed in this war should be 
visited, the man who is responsible before 
the country and before heaven, is, I say 
without hesitation, that recreant Repub- 
lican. 

Sir ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT 
and Col. SAUNDERSON (Armagh, M.) 
rose together to address the House. The 
latter having resumed his seat : 

*SiR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT 
proceeded : I am very sorry to stand be- 
tween the House and my gallant friend, but 
as direct reference has been made to myself 
I would ask the indulgence of the House 
for a few minutes while I attempt to deal 
with those statements. I cannot hope to 
equal the impassioned eloquence of the 
hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. 
But it seems to me that there are three 
striking fallacies underlying the speeches 
of the two hon. Gentlemen who have ad- 
dressed the House from below the gang- 
way opposite. The hon. Gentleman 
who has just sat down did a very 

Sievous injustice to the Uitlanders. 
e informed the House that Johannes- 
burg at the time of the Raid was armed. 
Johannesburg was not armed when the 
Jameson Raid took place. Only a very 
small proportion of the people had arms. 
Yet so great was the terror of the Boers, 
of President Kruger and of his Govern- 
ment, that in order to get that small 
fraction of Johannesburgers to lay down 
their arms, every kind of false promise 
and mis-statement was resorted to. There 
were plenty of courageous men in Johan- 
nesburg who would, if they had known 
the straits of Jameson and his men, 
have gone out to their relief. But the 
disaster came so suddenly and so unex- 
pectedly that they were unable to move 
before it was over. Another striking 
fallacy that has been much used on the 
opposite side of the House is the effect 
that this struggle will have upon the 



137 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} fJie Qu^^n's Speech. 138 



Dutch population of South Africa. I 
venture to predict that within five years 
after the struggle is over — and it can only 
have one end — the Dutch population not 
only of the Cape but of the Transvaal 
and Orange Free State will be perfectly 
contented and happy under the liberty 
and justice they will enjoy under the 
British flag. 

Mr. T. D. SULLIVAN (Donegal, W.) : 
You said that al>out the Irish people too. 

♦Sir ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT : 
I have never said that the Irish race 
would be contented and happy. I think 
they ought to ])e, but they are perhaps a 
little dijfirile in their natural character- 
istics. The true way to cause race senti- 
ment in South Africa to become embittered 
and hopelessly hostile until a state of 
anarchy and ruin is produced there, would 
l)e to allow the great Boer conspiracy 
against the predominance of England to 
get the upper hand in South Africa. 
That there is a great Boer conspiracy no 
one can doubt. It has grown with the 
weakness of British Ministries, and it has 
been nurtured on the gold wrung from the 
Li^itlanders. It is a conspiracy which has 
for its object the destruction of British 
predominance in South Africa and the 
creation of an independent South African 
Republic, in which the Dutch shall be 
paramount. The hon. Gentleman who 
spoke last but one said this was a 
war of millionaires and Majuba. I will 
deal with Majuba in a moment, but let 
me first deal with the question of the 
millionaires. The hon. Member for East 
Mayo was kind enough to say that I had 
Ixeen consistent in the policy I had pursued 
in regard to this South African question. 
If I may be allowed to siiy so, I have been 
consistent because, first of all, I know that 
a policy based on false sentiment and sur- 
renderof British rights, like that associated 
with the capitulation after Majuba, must 
always be fatal. I have been consistent 
>>ecause, in the second place, I know what 
Boer rule means, and in the third place, 
because I know what British rule 
means, not only in the Transvaal 
and South Africa but throughout the 
whole of the world. Because I have kept 
these essential points in view for the last 
18 years, I now have the advantage of 
receiving from the hon. Gentleman an 
admission of my consistency. But the hon. 
Gentleman told us that this was a war of 



millionaires. There never was a state- 
ment more absolutely incorrect. Who 
are the men now bearing the brunt of the 
struggle and of the suffering in South 
Africa 1 Thev are not the millionaires. 

Mr. DILLON : They have run away. 

*SiR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT : 
They are not even the British soldiers ; 
but the rank and file of the Uitlander 
population in the Transvaal. 

Mr. stanhope (Burnley): Ho^r 
many are there ? 

*SiR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT : 
Something ])etween 60,000 and 80,000 
working men, professional men, engineers, 
doctors, lawyers, tradesmen, and artisans. 
They are the men who now suffer, and 
they are the men who have been suffering 
for the last six years. The hon. Gentleman^ 
has got hold of the wrong end of the stick 
altogether. I have had the advantage of 
having an extensive correspondence with 
the L^itlanders of the Transvaal for the last 
six years, and I can tell the hon. Gentleman, 
that for the first three years of that period 
every letter I received was from men of 
the artisan and middle classes. I have 
those letters in my possession, and shall be 
happy to show them to the hon. Member. 
These men complained not only of Kniger 
and his executive, but also of the mil- 
lionaires, because the millionaires formerly 
used Kruger and his Government for their 
own profit. It is only when the injustice 
and tyranny of the Boer Government 
became absolutely intolerable that the 
millionaires made common cause with the 
great mass of the Uitlanders of tha 
Transvaal. But some of the million- 
aires behaved with much courage at 
Johannesburg, and no one disputes the^ 
splendid courage of Mr. Rhodes. The 
war has been rendered necessary 
for the protection of nearly 80,000 
British subjects who have been grossly 
and most unjustly maltreated by 
one of the most tyrannical and corrupt 
oligarchies the world has ever seen. That 
is the truth al»out this war. The hon. 
Gentleman made many other statements 
which will not ])ear examination, but he 
is so hopelessly prejudiced against every- 
thing that pertains to the interests of 
this country that it is hardly necessary to- 
answer him. This war has the support, 
I venture to say, of nine-tenths of the 
English people, and it has that support 

First Day. 



139 Addres^K in Jns7oer to \ COMMONS } 



the Qtteen's Speech, 



140 



l)ecaii8e the people of this country realise 
that the Government have entere<l into 
this war with great reluctance, that they 
have shown the utmost possible patience 
— in the opinion of some of us, too ihuch 
patience — and that they have been forced 
to undertake this war for the most ele- 
mentary claims of hunian liberty and 
human justice. The hon. Member for 
iijouth Mayo gave his case away when 
he confessed, with a sadness which 
"he could not avoid, that the great 
majority of his countrymen in South 
Africa and the colonies were on the side 
of the Uitlanders. Why is that ] Is it 
because they are prejudiced in favoiu* of 
England 1 No. It is because they know 
from experience what the rule of President 
Kruger and his Government means. These 
Irish have been forced, in spite of them- 
selves, to take the side of England against 
the side of the Transvaal. The hon. 
Member for South Mayo, who, if he 
was in the Transvaal, would, I venture 
to say, be one of the leaders of the 
Uitlanders, and would be, perhaps, now 
the victim of Boer oppression and 
Boer outrage, makes these wild state- 
ments because he is suffering from want 
of experience, or — if I may say so without 
offence — from absolute ignorance of the 
facts. The whole country will support 
the Government. They will provide the 
Oovernment with all the resources neces- 
sary for this struggle. I believe the struggle 
will be short. I am certain it will be effec- 
tive, and I believe it will conduce to the 
<jommon benefit not only of Englishmen 
and British subjects, but of Dutchmen 
and natives us well. A false glamour has 
been thrown around the Boers of the 
Transvaiil as if they were a people 
*' rightly struggling to be free." Their 
idea of freedom is very different 
from ours. They have never shown any 
freedom or justice to their black 
neighbours. 

Mr. da V ITT : What freedom did you 
fjhow the Matabele when you blew them 
up with dynamite ? 

*SiR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: 
You are speaking of the incidents of war. 
The Matabele are treated with justice and 
good government now, and are satisfied. 
The name of Boer is detested l)v the 
natives throughout South Africa, and 
I verv much fear that one of the results 
oi this war will Ikj a terrible native 
rising agaiuat the Boers which may cause 

S/r £yiis ^shmeiul'Bartlett, 



much guttering to innocent people. I 
said that there has been a ffreat deal of 
false glamour thrown arouna the Govern- 
ment of President Kniger and the 
character of the Boers. Do honourable 
Gentlemen opposite realise what that 
Government is ? Do thev realise that it 
denies to the great majority of the 
people of the iransvaal the right of 
public meeting, of a free Press, and of 
ordinary justice 1 Do they know that 
the independence of the High Court has 
been delil)erately done away with ? Do 
they know that the administration of 
this country costs \\ millions, the greater 
part of which is spent in corruption : 
while the neighbouring Republic, the 
Orange Free State, is administered at a 
i cost of only £400,000 ? Yet the Orange 
Free State is better and more honestly 
administered than the Transvaal. The 
President and his Executive, the mem- 
bers of his family, and the majority of 
the Volksraid all enjoy a large and most 
illegitimate pr()iK)rtion of the product of 
taxation. This has been proved over 
and over again, and is one of the reasons 
for the desperate resistance now being 
made by Kruger and his cabal to all 
practical reform. There may be some 
points to criticise in the policy and ad- 
ministration of the Government; I do 
not propose now to enter upon these 
points. The time has not yet come 
for that criticism. We may be al»le to 
say something about the delay in dealing 
with this Transvaal question — a delay 
which has rendered it infinite! v more 
difficult and costly to deal with than 
it ought to have been — and also 
about the apparent unprepared ness of 
our militarv resources: but this is not 
the time for criticism. This is the time 
at which, I am satisfied, the great 
majority of the Membeis of this House 
and nine-tenths of the people of this 
country will rally to the support of the 
Government in the action which they 
have tjiken and which is necessaiy, not 
only for the maintenance of British 
supremacy in South Africa, but also 
for justice and the common rights of 
humanity. 

♦Mr. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal (rreen, 
S.W.) : As I intend to vote for the 
Amendment, 1 desire to state very l>rietty 
the grounds upon which 1 propose to do 
so. I cannot imagine any proposition 
more detrimental to the welfare of the 
country than that honourable Menibei-s 



141 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech, 142 



who are opposed to the war should re- 
main silent until the war is over. If 
that proposition were admitted, then a 
"Oovernment would have a direct interest 
in precipitating hostilities abroad by way 
of avoiding attack at home. But it is 
'quite unnecessary that I should expose 
the futility of that proposition, because 
4dl the traditions and best practice of 
British statesmanship are entirely opposed 
to it. From a crowd of precedents I will 
. select only one or two. In the last cen- 
"tury that true Imperialist the great 
Earl of Chatham opposed from first to 
last the war with our North American 
^Colonies, and in his place in Parlia- 
ment moved an Address to the King 
requesting that our troops should be re- 
called. In 1857, when hostilities had 
hroken out between this country and 
China, Lord Derby, the Kupert of debite, 
4W he was called, moved a Resolution in 
"the House of Lords condemning the policy 
•of the Government. A similar Reso- 
lution was moved by Mr. Cobden in 
this House, and was supported by 
Mr. Gladstone, Mr. Bright, and Mr. 
Disraeli, and almost, with a few excep- 
liions, the entire Conservative party, and 
it is, I think, not irrelevant to point out 
iihat the speech in which Lord Palmer- 
;8ton defended the action of his Govern- 
ment then is curiously like very much that 
we hear to-day. Lord Palmerston said that 
our proceedings had been marked by ex- 
treme forbearance ; that Sir John Bowring 
was the most unlikely man to get the coun- 
try into hostilities without just cause : that 
this House had in its keeping not only the 
interests and the property and the lives 
of many of our c(Muitrymen, but the 
honour, the reputation, and- the character 
of the country, and so forth. Then, 
again, in December, 1878, when Par- 
liament was summoned in consetjuence 
of the Afghan War, Amendments con- 
demning the policy of the Government 
were moved in ])oth Houses — -in the 
House of Lords ])y Lord Halifax, and in 
the House of Commons by Mr. Whitbread, 
who was supported by Mr. Gladstone, 
hy the right hon. (Tcntleman the First 
Lord of the Admiralty, by the present 
Duke of Devonshire, by the present 
Colonial Secretary, and by the entire 
Liberal Party. It is, therefore, perfectly 
clear that according to the best practice 
of Parliament, the fact of present war 
does not and ought not to silence those 
who condemn the policy which led to the 



war. Those who maintain the contrary 
proposition, if I may say so with great 
respect, confuse two entirely diflferent 
things. They confuse the exigencies of the 
military situation with the policy which led 
to that situation. I say that to refuse 
Supply is one thing, but to challenge and 
criticise and condemn the policy which 
led to the war is quite another, and hon. 
Members who shrink, and perhaps rightly, 
from the first course, are not thereby 
precluded from pursuing the other. It 
has been said that this is not the time 
for criticism. No one has said that the 
issue of the ultimatum, and the conse- 
quences which have followed, are to cancel 
criticism, but it is suggested that criti- 
cism ought to be postponed. So far as 
the practice of Parliament is concerned, 
I do not understand that proposition. 
When hon. Members are honestly con- 
vinced that the Government is wrong, 
it is their duty to say so, war or no 
war. That is the course which has been fol- 
lowed by the brightest ornaments of British 
statesmanship, and I am not ashamed to 
tread in their steps. So much I have 
said in justification of this Amendment, 
and of the line of criticism which its 
supporters are taking. I desire now to 
come to close quarters with the question 
before us to-night, and I should like to 
refer to the speech of the hon. Member 
for Derby, who gave us a catalogue 
of the grievances of the Uitlanders. 
I listened very carefully to the hon. 
Gentleman, who always speaks wath great 
moderation and with regard for the 
feelings of those who are opposed to him, 
but to my mind he did not make out any- 
thing at all approaching a case for war, or 
even for entering upon a course of negotia- 
tions, the probable consequence of which 
would be war. The hon. Gentleman said in 
the first place, that public meetings were 
broken up in the Transvaal. We have 
had within the last few weeks many 
examples of public meetings being broken 
up in England. Then the hon. Gentlo- 
j man referred to the evils arising from the 
liquor traftic in the Transvaal. Why, Sir, 
have not some of us cognisance of the 
enormous evils which fiow from the 
liquor traffic in this country 'i But the 
hon. Gentleman was interrupted, and ho 
said, " Oh, but the point upon which I 
am now is that the liquor laws are 
violated." Are not the liquor laws violated 
in this country 1 Yes, probably quite as 
I much as they are in the Transvaal. Then 

First Day. 



143 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} tlie Queen's Speech. 



144 



he referred to the murder of a lady in the 
Transvaal, the details of which no one 
could read without their feelings being 
harrowed. He seemed to blame the 
authorities in the Transvaal for failing to 
detect the murderer. How many un- 
punished crimes of murder have we had 
in this Metropolis ? It is a matter to be 
regretted, l>ut it is absurd to try to make 
an international question of such a com- 
plaint as that. Then he referred to the 
municipality of Johannesburg, and, as an 
instance of the corruption which he 
alleges exists in that city, stated that the 
monopoly for a drainage scheme had been 
given to a private person. 

*Mr. DRAGE : I beg the hon. Member's 
pardon, I did not say anything about cor- 
ruption in connection with Johannesburg. 
I merely dealt with the municipal govern- 
ment of Johnnesburg, not the city. 

*Mr. PICKERSGILL: The hon. 
Gentleman will not dispute, I am sure, 
that as an example of the corruption 
which prevailed he said that the monopoly 
of a drainage scheme for Johannesburg 
had been given to a private person. 

*Mr. DRAGE : No ; I cited that as the 
way in which municipal government in 
Johannesburg was neutralised. 

*Mr. PICKERSGILL : Yes, but what I 
have to complain of is that the hon. 
Gentleman did not state the whole 
facts of the case with regard to that 
drainage scheme. 

*Mr. DRAGE : They were not material 
to my point. 

*Mr. PICKERSGILL : Oh ! not mate- 
rial to the honourable Gentleman's point ! 
Wait a moment. The honourable Gen- 
tleman said, as an example of corruption, 
the monopoly of a drainage scheme had 
heen given to a private person. That is 
quite true so far. The monopoly was 
given to a private person. But on the 
very page of the Blue Book upon which 
the statement is found there is a note to 
the effect that that concession was can- 
celled, and it was cancelled l^ecause repre- 
sentations were made bv Uitlanders 
against this abuse. The hon. Gentle- 
man ought in common honesty to have 
toW the whole of the facts of the case. 
I think they are very rele\ant, because 
they show that President Kruger and his 
Government are not deaf to all appeals, 
and that the Uitlanders are able to obtain, 

Mr, Pickersgill, 



in some instances at all events, redress of 
their grievances by perfectly proper and 
legitimate means. The fact is tnat the- 
grievances of the Uitlanders, although 
grievances there are, have been grossly 
exaggerated. Take Sir Alfred Milner's 
famous despatch of 5th May. I say 
he proves too much. He is not an artist 
in colour; he dabs in the black paint 
with far too heavy a hand. Nothing 
could be more appalling than the picture 
Sir Alfred Milner draws of life in Johan- 
nesburg. Property is not safe, he tells 
us ; personal violence is rife ; women are 
subject to insult. Why, it must be a hell 
upon earth !. But, at all events, it seems 
rather a jx)pular pandemonium. After ally 
no one is compelled to stay there, and, what 
is more to the point, no one is compelled to 
go there. Yet it is part of Sir Alfred 
Alilner's case, after drawing this appalling 
picture, that foreigners are pouring into 
Johainiesburg in ever increasing numbers. 
The picture is not artistic ; it bears upon 
its face the evidence that it is exaggerated,, 
overdrawn, and untrue. I admitted that 
there were grievances, but there is no 
complaint of the Uitlanders which has 
not its counterpart in this country. " Per- 
sonal violence is rife : the police are 
guilty of personal violence." Yes, but there 
have been only one or two or three cases 
of personal violence by the police, and have 
not we had in England, and still more in 
Ireland, similar instances ? If you go- 
across the Atlantic to America you will 
find that the American police, especially in 
rough neighbourhoods, have been guilty of 
a score of acts of brutality, so called, for- 
every one which you can charge against the 
police in the Transvaal. Then it is saicf 
that taxation falls heavily on the Uitlander- 
and lightly on the Boer. Have not we 
the counterpart in this country ? Do not 
we see tradesmen overburdened with 
public charges while the ground landlord 
does not lift a single finger to help to bear* 
them 1 " The right of public meeting is 
attacked." It is only a week or two ago 
that I read of an Irish Meml)er who had 
called a meeting of his constituents, at 
which he and his friends were batoned 
by the police. [An Irish Member : By 
the Chief Secretary.] Then we are told 
that the Uitlanders had to wait long 
years before they got a vote for the Volks- 
raad or First Chamber in the Transvaal. 
In this country we have no vote at all tor 
our first Chamber. Then, Johannesburg 
"remains without proper municipalgovem 



145 Address in Anstvo' to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. HG^ 



ment." How long did this Metropolis 
** remain without proper municipal govern- 
ment "? Has London obtained " proper 
municipal government " even now ? It is 
complainea that the Uitlanders have not 
the control of the police in Johannesburg. 
Why, the citizens of London have not the 
control of the police. Why should these 
grievances be held up to the world when 
we have really their counterparts in this 
country 1 Then, Sir, a question has been 
raised upon which I feel, and which I 
condemn, as stronglv as any man, viz., the 
treatment of the coloured people. But 
are our own colonists in South Africa 
altogether blameless in the matter ? The 
question of the treatment of the Indian 
subjects of the Queen was expressly raised 
by the Colonial Secretary. It was upon one 
of those occasions when new grievances 
were raised and new demands were sprung 
upon the Boers. Much as I regret the 
way in which the Indian subjects of the 
Queen are treated in the Transvaal, I 
challenge contradiction when I say that 
the treatment of the Indian subjects of 
the Queen in Natal is infinitely worse. 
If, therefore, you will not compel our own 
colonists to treat our Indian fellow-sul)jects 
properly, why do you try to make it a casus 
belli against the Transvaal Government ? 
This oppression business has been very much 
overdone. It presumes upon our credu- 
lity. I think I know mv fellow-country- 
men better than this supposes. Let the 
Government be what you please, and 
the laws what you will, the Anglo- 
Saxon is too robust and energetic and 
virile a race to be very much oppressed 
by anyone under any circumstances. 
The fact is simply that President 
Kruger is an old Tory ; he is one of 
those who consider that what was good 
enough for their fathers is good enough 
for them ; and so he wants to jog along 
in the old way, and hates these "pro- 
gressives" with their disturbing theories 
and new-fangled notions, just as some hon. 
Gentlemen are very much perturbed by the 
London Progressives. I cannot but think 
that, after all, the Torv Partv must have a 
sort of sneaking kindness for this image 
of themselves reflected in President 
Kruger. The problem of the Transvaal 
is a very old one — almost as old as 
civilisation itself. It is the problem 
which is constantly recurring— that of 
the first clash and encounter of the new 
order of things with the old order of 
things. It has come about with peculiar 



suddenness in the Transvaal owing to* 
the discovery of gold. For this state of 
things there is only one solution, and 
that solution is the policy of patience. 
It is said that the policy of patience has 
been tried long enough and that patience 
is exhausted. Verv well, I will deal with 
it. The hon. Member for Derby told us 
that the first meeting of the Uitlanders to 
I press their grievances was in 1892. I 
I believe that is perfectly correct ; the Trans- 
i vaal National Union was founded in 1892. 
I We may take it, therefore, that these 
I grievances first began to be severely felt 
1 when steps were taken to remedy them 
j in 1892. We are. now in 1899 — only 
seven years. I wish hon. Gentlemen 
opposite would cultivate a sense of pro- 
portion. Seven years, when you are 
dealing with such a revolution as is 
expected to be effected in the Transvaal,, 
is not a long period of time. Compare 
it, for instance, with Cape Colony. It is 
part of our opponents' case that in Cape 
Colony you have the English and Dutch 
side by side with equal rights. It is 
quite true, and one rejoices that it is so. 
But it has not always been so. It took 
at least ten years for the Dutchman to 
establish himself on the ground of a 
political e<iuality with the Briton in Cape 
Colon}'. 

Mr. DILLON : Fifty year?. 

*Mr. PICKERSGILL : It may be so, 
but say ten. But here only seven years 
have elapsed, which I say is not a long 
time for such <a transaction as this. Com- 
pare it with incidents in our own history. 
Duriner how manv vears did our own 
Anti-Corn Law League carry on its great 
campaign ? How long did the working 
classes — my hon. friend the Member 
for Haggerston appealed to the working 
classes, and, let me say here incidentally, 
he claimed that the working classes of 
East London were upon his side. I deny 
it. The hon. Member spoke of those who 
worked in the boot and shoe trade, and I 
may say that half my constituents work 
in that trade. (Ministerial laughter.) 
Why that laugh 1 I am not ashamed to • 
represent boot and shoe makers. On the 
contrary, I am proud to have the oppor- 
tunity of representing them here, and I 
throw that hon. Member's laugh in his 
teeth. A week ago I held a meeting — I 
will amend my phrase and say that I was 
asked to address a meeting — of my own 
constituents, and I did attend. It was a 

First Day. 



147 Jddress in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech, 148 

meeting with reference to the Transvaal | *Mr. PICKERSGILL : I bow to your 
question. A strong resohition condemn- 1 ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I think I have 
ing the policy of the Government was i quoted sufficient to show that people in 
moved at that meeting, and it was carried ■ this country are subjected for long periods 
with only one dissentient, and he was a • of time to far greater sufferings than 
member of the Conservative Party. How these Uitlanders have had to undergo, 
long did the working classes of this Whilst I avow the strongest possible sym- 
country ask for the franchise and ask in ' pathy for the women and children, I 
vain 1 I think there has never been such ' think that our first care ought to be for 
a piece of irony in any country at any ' the far larger number of persons who are 
time as we have seen recently, for we \ living under most disgraceful conditions 
have seen the Members of another place close to our own homes. This Amend 
and of this House shrieking to extend the ment concludes by suggesting that the 
franchise in South Africa, whereas they resources of arbitration should be called 
fought like demons against giving the fran- '. in under the present circumstances, and I 
chise in this country. Here is another piece | heartily support that suggestion. I sin- 
of irony. Apparently we are going to war cerely trust that no technical reason, such 
because President Kruger declines to con- ; as the fact that the Transvaal is not a 
vert loyal subjects of the Queen into Re- sovereign independent State, will l^e 
publicans fast enough to please the party I allowed to stand in the way of effect 
opposite. The case is full of absurji being given to this proposal. I do not 
contradictions. How long have we been ! see why it should, because, as a matter of 
demanding that the will of the people i fact, the Government of this country has 
shall not be thwarted in another place ? i already, in one instance at all events, 
I have full sympathy with the women accepted arbitration with the Transvaal, 
and children particularly who have suffered { I refer to the arbitration which took place 
in the Transvaal. We have heard of some time ago, when I think the Chief 
women and children packed together in Justice of the Free State was the arbi- 
railway trucks, and I must say that I ' trator, upon the question of the treatment 
have the most sincere sympathy for them, by the Transvaal of Indian subjects of 
But, after all, I have still greater sym- the Queen. That seems to me to be a 
pathy for the tens of thousands at home, ' relevant case, and it is a precedent for 
who are packed together, not for forty- applying arbitration now between England 
eight hours in railway trucks, but year in and the Transvaal. Having regard to the 
and year out in unhealthy dwellings in ' fact that not many weeks ago this country 
our great towns. 1 am sorry to see that ; sent a representative to the Peace Con- 
the Colonial Secretary is not in his place, i gress at the Hague, and declared its 
for I hold in my hand the Birmingham ; adhesion to the great principle of trying 
Dailf/ Midi of 9th of October, which ' the resources of arbitration before comi- 
devotes an article to the housing problem, tries apply themselves to the arbitrament 
and it says : — i of war, I trust this country will be true 

" At the present time wa<res are liigh " ! to the course it took up there, and will 

(xMinisterial interruption.) I assure hon. j "^^ ^* ^" ^uch a way that our enemies on 
Members opposite that thev are very^^^ contment of Europe can say that 
much mistaken if they think that bv I ^^^g^^nd is hypocritical on this question. 

clamour they will prevent this being read. ! , , „,„t T^ /T^ i.t cu t> ^ • i \ t 
" \f fi.^,..L«..f f;f^.^ „.. Ill 11 ! Mr. FIEIjD (Dublin, St. Patrick): I 

" At the present time waj^es are hii'h, build" I t_ ji i j Vi. i • '^i. 

ing material is expensive, and lialf-a-sovereign \ ^an hardly understand the levity with 



their families have to live tlie l>est wav they , r t • i u- • j t 

can, and that generally nipans the worit way ^^om Liverpool this morning, and 1 
possible. Some miserable dwelling in the I several of the most affecting leave-takings 
centre of the city as nearly as i)ossible is taken, I of Army Keserve men who are going to 
and there men and women and children are i j^i^ their brigades. I have always held 
herded together night alter night iri . .. • .P i . r ,i • tt*' 

(Cries of " Question.") 

*Mr. speaker : Order, order. I do 
not think the quotation which the hon. 
Meml)er is reading is relevant. 

Mr. Pii'kersyill. 



that it is the duty of this House to 
discuss and determine the war policy of 
the nation, and in my opinion it seems 
an extraordinary thing that the constitu- 
tion of England allows a single Minister 



149 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} tlie Queen's Speech, 150 



to engineer a war, and then when that 
war is entered upon also allows the 
Government to call upon Parliament to 
discuss its merits. I cannot conceive why 



now we are coolly asked by the Govern- 
ment to contribute towards the cost of 
this war. Not long ago a large meeting 
was held in Dublin, and with one voice 



it is that one single member of the Govern- they declared against this war. There is 
raent can so manipulate and manage not a single Nationalist in my constituency 



affairs that war becomes inevitable, and 
then this House, after the final step is 
taken, is asked its opinion upon a ques- 
tion which it has no power to modify. 



who is not against this Boer war. I do 
not sit here as the true loyal servant of 
the British Government, ))ut I am here .is 
an Irish representative, representing the 



As an Irish Member I object entirely to | opinion of St. Patrick's Division ; and 

this war, and I have as much right to i whether it pleases the Government or 

ol)ject to it as hon. Meml>ers opposite ■ not, it is my duty to express the opinion 

have to approve of it. I want to know j of my constituents fearlessly. I think 

what this war is about. I have read in I .this financial question is one of the most 

the newspapers most of the articles which serious which will have to be considered 

have been written on this subject. I in connection with this war. I do not 

have read them until I ha\e become | intend to take up the time of the House 

absolutely puzzled as to the details, and upon this subject now, for I shall have an 

I am not clear yet as to what the war is i opportunity of speaking upon it another 

about. I know that ostensibly the war time. I would, however, like to call 

was undertaken about the franchise, but i attention to this fact. A few months ago 

what is the state of the franchise in ; we had a Peace Conference, and it was 

Ireland ? How many years have some of | attended by the representatives of the 

these Uitlanders spent in the Transvaal ? various nations in Europe, and no repre- 

I know some of them have gone there sentative was stronger in putting forward 

and made their fortunes, but in Ireland j the idea of having these international 

we have had the Irish population deprived | disputes settled by arbitration than the 

until last year of the municipal franchise. ' gentleman who represented thiiL; country. 

This great House of Commons absolutely 1 want to know what change has come 

refused the right of citizenship to the over the Administration ? Why is it that 

majority of the Irish people until last ! when President Kruger made the offer to 

j^ear, and even when we get it we have submit this dispute to arliitration it was 

to pay for it by an agricultural grant of not accepted ? I am strongly of the 

£750,000 per annum. I see the hon. Mem- opinion that it was not a (juestion of the 

l>er here for St. Stephen's Green. What franchise at all ; it was not a question 

has happened regarding the franchise in , of arms for the Uitlander.s ; it is not a 

8outh Dublin 1 Why, before the last re- drainage question, as some gentlemen 

vision court every Nationalist that was on appear to make out, nor a question of gas 

the register in St. Stephen's Green and or water, l)ut it is a question of obtaining 

South Dublin, where there is a very narrow the whole of South Africa, and it is a case 

majority of Conservatives, was served of continent-gral)bing. I am not going 

with an objection, and every means was to detain the House at any length, but as 

taken to prevent them from obtaining a an Irish Member I protest against this 

vote for these tM^o divisions. If this kind war, and I shall vote against it because 1 

of thing took place in South Africa what believe it is an unjust and an unnecessary 

would be said in this country 1 Another war, which is condemned l)y the vast 

• question to which I desire to direct majority of the Irish people. I maintain 

the attention of the House is this. We that the Irish people at the present time 

hear a great deal about the grievances of ! are lal)ouring under more constitutional 

the Uitlanders in the Transvaal, but every '< disadvantages than the Uitlanders in the 

Irishman is treated positively worse than ; Transvaal, and I woukl like to ask Gen- 

the Uitlanders. We live under a per- ; tlemen opposite who are so much in 

petual Coercion Act, Mr. Speaker, in favour of this war what they would have 

Ireland, and the Irish nation are deprived thought of America, or France, or 

of the right to bear arms, which is a right Germany, if they commenced to interfere 

held by every citizen in every free State, in our internal affairs. (Ministerial 

We are also overtaxed by £.S,000,000 per i laughter.) Hon. Mcnil)ers may laugh, 

annum, and every Irishman is called upon but believe me, England has not so many 

.to pay his portion of that taxation, and powerful allies that she can afford to go 

First I hi II. 



1 5 1 Address iv Ansicer to { COMMONS } the Queen's Speech. 152- 

to war at the present time on a small from that in ordinary minds, because 

. fT^I * * 1 ^ A \ i \ A A \ A A * A t A.\- A^ 



if anything disastrous occurs it is very already invaded Natal, and may have 
easy to conceive such complications as killed a number of Her Majesty's sub- 
may not l)e so easily met as in the case \ jects. AVhy is it that hon. Gentlemen 
of the Boers. The Boers are only a small opposite take up the cause of the Boers ? 
handful of men, and why should the j They state very frankly that they hate 
British Empire go to war with them ? If ' Great Britain. They have been quite 
the Boers were a powerful nation the open on the point. They would like to 
British Empire would not have gone to see Great Britain overthrown — at all 
war with them. Our sympathies are events, that is what they say in Ireland, 
entirely with the Boers, and a great many | But, although they desire the downfall of 
Englishmen also sympathise with the i Great Britain, they have an extremely 
Boers. I have l)een talking with a great i great respect for the power of the British 
many Englishmen in this country who lion. They will not go for the British 
tell me that war has been declared lion themselves, but they adopt the prin- 
because we cannot help it. That is the ciple of patting on thelmck any one who 
way in which it has been engineered. As undertakes the task of tackling the British 
an Irish MeniluT I protest against this lion. Not very long ago a great favourite 
unjust war, and I trust that God will in Ireland was the Mahdi, and I remem- 
defend the right. ber that the hon. Member for East Clare 
Colonel SAUNDERSON: I hesitate ijj^self called for three cheere for the 
to address the House in this debate, ^^^^^?- ^)^y ^'^ Irishmen admire the 
iKJcause I expect very few British \^^H' ^ ^ suppose they will not deny 
Members will take part in it. I am ^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^ most detestable blood- 
happy to know that on this occasion, as Jhirsty ruffian, but he had one redeeming 
on all similar occasions when this country {^^^^re which obhterated all his failings— 
is at war, partv politics are forgotten, and \^ ^'^nt for Great Bntain. \^ e find now 
Englishmen, wliothcr the v be Liberals or that the Boers occupy the pla^e that the 
Kadicals or Conservative^ stand shoulder ^ahdi occupied. Meetings have been held 
to shoulder. The principal speakers in all ^^er Ireland m support of the Boers,, 
this debate have been Irish Members, and although the language used has been 
No one objects to Irish Members ex- Pretty strong, I really think the House 
pressing their opinions in this House, but and the country, and even the Boers 
I think some surprise must be felt at the themselves, should hear what their sup- 
vigorous manner in which Roman Catholic posters have said. I will give one quota- 
Irishmen support the Boers. I think tion, and J think the House wi.l admit it 
that is verv magnanimous on their part, is pretty stiff. The hon. Member for 
because Roman Catholics in the Transvaal Kilkenny, who has taken the Clath of 
have not a - show *' of any kind. Allegiance, made the followmg state- 
\f T M uFifv /T ,\. yc\ "^^"^' which, I suppose, by some ethical 
MR. 1. M. HtiiALi (Loutn, -^•)- process he can reconcile to his con- 
What have they in Ireland I science 

Colonel SAUNDERSON : I will .-h^ hojied," he said, ^ that the soldiers in 

leave the Hnnse to judge that. Ireland Iri-li rtviments in the service of Enjxland would 

sends 103 Members hero, and thev make ^•♦^fore they Une<l up aj|:ainst the Bc>ers, remem- 

• 3 11 kk u T 4.u:.\i. *u 1 or tlmt thev were first of all Irishiiien, ana 

a considerabh* ''show. I thuik the Ix ^- \ V^t^\u^\^,i^ f^^r^,,^ ^i v^rt^A^nA 

,. ,. 1 . 1 1 that, instead of hjjhtinj; m ta\ our of fjigianiu 

;.. House listened with attention and amuse- ^^^^^y ^^.^„ii,i ^^^^ their anns in favour of the 
ment, and pi^haps some admiration, to iWrs." 
the speech of the hon. Meml>er ior VaxsI Xow what does that mean ? It means that 



vun^t yjL pc.»vwm !».. .i.wc i.. ^v.i.c.x .^tt.vo. only to aesert hut tosnooi tneir comraaes. 

The House was {K'rhaps astonishtNl at j ;^^^^i^\ ij^^ to ha^-e heani the hon. 

that statement, but it would not have Gentleman make such a speech in the 

Ihhmi if It knew the county Clare. The Xransvjial with impimitv, or in any other 

idea m the mnul i>f the hon. Member of civilised country except Ireland, where 

*^ peaceful farmers is naturally different ^y^^^y ^^y ^^e lilWrty of the subject is so. 
aMf, Field. 



153 Address in Answer to {17 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 154 

much interfered with. I think, however, j question, what has this coimtry to gain in 
that the speeches of hon. Gentlemen ' getting hold of the Transvaal ? It is said 
below the gangway opposite are from the that this country is going to take the 
outset absolutely discounted in this Transvaal on account of its gold. Would 
House. I think they will have no effect, the British taxpayer get the gold ? 
and ought to have no effect, either in this Would the Members of the House of 
House or in the country, not because Commons l>e richer 1 Oh, yes, I beg 
they are not eloquent, but because hon. pardon, hon. Gentlemen opposite got 
Gentlemen opposite stand in the House £10,000 from Mr. Cecil Ehodes. The 
of Commons and in Ireland as enemies of hon. Member for East Mayo, in his 
Great Britain. Therefore, I say that when torrent of declamation against Mr. 
they advocate any course in the House of Rhodes, forgot that <£1 0,000, and he did 
Commons, the House of Commons, if true not tell the House whether any of it 
to the country, ought to take a dia- , went into his own pocket. 
metrically opposite view. What they ; Mr. DILLON : I did not forget the 
advise cannot be in favour of Great £10,000. It was ^'wew to Mr. Par.iell to 
Britain: what they condemn is exactly support the Home Rule cause, l)ut it 
the coiu-se we ought to follow. There- I could not bribe the Irish Party. 
fore, I think that the speeches of hon. i Colonel SAUNDERSOX : Then I sup- 
Gentlemen opposite, although they may ^^ ^^,j^g returned, as it ought to have 
probably give satisfaction to their con- ^^^^^^ It is idle to have these accusations 
stituents, will have no effect in the House i^^^ ^^jg country. The taxpayers of this 
of Commons There is, however, one country or the Members of the House of 
r^pect m which 1 regard the speeches ' Commons have not embarked on this war 
which hon. Members have been making .; ,,,j^j^ ^^^^. satisfaction. I venture to say 
on the question of the Transvaal as ^j^^t there is no hon. Member who does 
important I ask any Radical Mem- not look upon the war as a sad necessity, 
ber of this House, if there is one, , ^^^^^ i ^^ conscious that we will be ac- 
who still even pretends to believe m quitted of deliberately entering upon this 
Home Rule, if we were not amply ^ar with any idea of aggrandisement or 
justified m taking the stand we did in enrichment.^ That is not our object. 
opposing by every means in our power ^he right hon. Gentleman the Member 
the placing of men in authontym Ireland f^j. Montrose said that the man in the 
who openly avow themselves enemies of street did not know why we were going 
this country. If there is that patriotism to war, and hon. Gentlemen opposite have 
^^.^K^^^^i. i?^ ?^^°'^^'*^ /^''reiterated that statement. To my 
which I give them credit, those speeches . niind nothing is plainer to the man 
and the action taken by hon. Gentle- ; ^^ the street than that the treatment 
men opposite on this question ought to , ^f tiie Uitlanders in the Transvaal is a 
kill Home Rule for ever. The country ^.^^,y material incident in the case. But 
IS accused of going to war with the , that is not the reason why we are going 
Transvaal for the meanest motives. Hon. i to war. W^e are going to war because we 
♦Gentlemen opposite of course hold that i ^^e determined that Queen Victoria and 
opmion, but I do not thmk Great Bntam i j^^t President Kruger shall be supreme, 
IS ever likely to go to them for a character. I and any man who has visited South 
Mr. T. M. HEALY : Where will she ' Africa, even for a week or ten days, knows 
go for it ] I that that is the question. I ventured to 

Col. SAUNDERSON : She will go to P<^i"^ ^^^\ ^^ .^^f. ^P^f, .^^ ^ previous 
the record of her past history. ; occasion that m bouth Afnca there exists 

Mr. SWIFT MACNEILL (Donegal, S.) : '■ ^^^^ "^^^f^ Z'^^^l'^ 
lorigoti. , g^j^ organisation similar to that which 

CoL. SAUNDERSON : It is very hard i existed in Ireland, and, just as in Ireland, 
to cany on a guerilla warfare. I may j it derives its money from a foreign 
say also that I read with much pain a ' country. The Afrikander Bond gets its 
speech made by the right hon. Gentle- ' money from the Transvaal, and why is it 
man the Member for Montrose, in which \ given ? In the rules of the Bond, which 
he spoke of this country as a country of 1 1 have procured, it is clearly laid down 
pirates. Let me ask any man who ] that the object of the Bond is to create in 
.thinks calmly for one moment on this ^ South Africa a great Dutch power, in 

First Day. 



Addres,^ in A'Bswtr to {COMMONS} Ihf Quefn's Speech. 



155 

which the English should have no share, 
Imt I believe the majority of this country 
is at one with the majority of this 
House when we say that Queen Victoria 
shall he supreme in South Africa. My 
experience, so far as it goes, ia that 
there are thousands of Cntchmen in 
South Africa at present " sitting oti the 
rail," and that thejj arc ready to join the 
side which they think will be uppermost 
in the end. If they find out that this 
coimtry really means to make an end, as 
I lielieve it does, then the Dutch in the 
gi-eater part of Cape Colony and Natal 
will become loyal sul»iectB of the Queen. 
I regret the necessity for this war. I 
regret that we are fighting at the present 
ntoment with a brave, a determined, and 
al)0\'e all a Protestant people. As to 
the necessity tor the war, history will 
record that it was forced imon us, 
;ind when we road the Blue Books, I 
\enture to affirm that no Government in 
the history of our country has ever shown 
more patience in trying to avert war. 
What was the point on which the split 
occurred T It was not a question of 
franchise qualification. The split took 
place on the word "suzerainty." That is 
the foundation of the whole trouble in 
South Africa. The Dutch will not have 
it, and we are determined that it shall 
exist. That is the position which the 
Government have taken up, and, whatever 
hon. Gentlemen opposite may say, and 
however they may sneer and misrepresent 
the motives that have caused the Govern- 
ment to take this action, the British people 
will record their approval of a policy which 
will give freedom and justice and pros- 
perity to the whole of South Africa. 

Mr. p. a. M'HUGH (Leitrim, N.): 
I have one or two words to say in support 
of the Amendment of the hon. Member 
for East Mayo. In my judgment, and 
that of my constituents, this war is a 
most iniquitous enterprise, and it appears 
to me that there is a great deal of hypo- 
crisy in the speeches delivered by hon. 
Gentlemen opposite in support of it. It 
has been said that the Uitlanders are 
ilouied the right of free speech. On the 
I7th of last month the right hoTi. Gentle- 
man the Chief Secretary Tor Ireland, who 
is now demanding the right of free speech 
for the Uitlanders, denieil the right of 
free speech to me in my own constituency, 
itn<l sent down two hundred of his police 
to Iwtton my constituents. I would like 
to know if we have not as mtich right to 

Coli/nel Sminderson. 



156 

free speech in my own constituency, in 
which r was born, and in which my father 
and mother are living, as the Uitlanders. 
in the Transvaal 1 We are told that the. 
Uitlanders do not get a fair trial, but in 
the county of Lcitnm my constituents get 
no trial at all. Let me point out to Her 
Majesty's Minister who rules Ireland at- 
the present time, that there is in SHgo 
Gaol a member of my constituency, an 
Irish Uitlander, imprisoned after two 
trials, not because any charge was formu- 
lated against him, but because he van 
a member of a legal organisation, the 
United Irish League. You demand 
a fair trial for the Uitlmidera in the 
Transvaal ; I demand a fair trial for my 
constitutents at home in Ireland. 

•Mr. speaker : Oi^er, oider ! The 
hon. Member is uot entitled on thi» 
question to go into particular griovances- 
in Ireland, 

Mr. p. a. M'HUGH : I was trying to 
point out the fallacies and hypocrisy of 
the speakers on the other side of the 
House, and I was going to show that if 
they were honest and sincere in their 
demands for a fair trial for the Uitlanders. 
in the Transvaal, they should extend to 
the people I represent a fair trial, which 
was being denied to them, and whoso- 
liberties have been taken away by two 
partisan Judges. 

•Mr. SPEAKER: Order, order! Tho 
hon. Member must know that he ia not 
in order in speaking in this maimer of 
the Judges in Ireland, 

Mr. p. a. M-HUGH: Well, whoso 
Iil>ertie8 have been taken away by the 
promoted supporters of Her Majesty's- 
Government. 

♦Mr, SPEAKER; K the hon. Member 

SrsistH in this line of aivument, I shall 
ve to name him to the House. 

Mr, T. M, HEALY : If the Transvaal 
is under British suserainty, is it in order 
to attack the Judges in the Transvaal 1 

Mr. p. a. M-HUGH ; I do not wish 
to detain the House, but I might use the 
same arguments in regara to Other 
questions. We have not equality iir 
Ireland in regard to education ; we have 
not a Catholic university. Then in regard 
to over-taxation our case in Ireland in- 
much harder than that of the Uitlanders. 
in the Transvaal. I do not know much 
about Blue Books in connection with thia.. 
question, but I do know that to my con- 



157 Address in Ansivei' to {17 OcTOBEii 1899} the Queen's Speech. 158 



stituents, as to myself, this war is an 
absolutely iniquitous enterprise. There 
is no use, however, in speaking to 
the House of Commons about iniquity, 
or morality, or humanity. The British 
lion is roaring for his prey, and he must 
get it. There is another point of view 
from which this question might be dis- 
cussed })y the Irish representative, namely, 
that of £, 8. d. A huge sum will be asked 
for, for the purpose of proceeding with this 
war, and Ireland will ])e called upon to 
pay, not her share, but much more than 
her share. It has been shewn clearly, 
beyond the power of contradiction of any 
Member of this House, that Ireland is 
overtaxed to the extent of three millions. 



♦Mr. SPEAKEK : The question of the 
overtaxation of Ireland cannot arise on 
this debate. 

Mr. p. a. I\rHUGH : Then I will 
not discuss it ; but I will say, as an 
Irish representative, that I object to pay 
a penny towards a war to which I am 
opposed on grounds of public morality. 
I say it is a scandal greater than any that 
has existed in the Transvaal ; and I 
object to the people in my constituency 
being compelled to contribute to an 
enterprise the cost of which would 
stagger humanity. 

Question put. 

The House divided : — Ayes, 54 
Noes, 322 — (Division List, No. 2). 



Abraham, William (Cork,N.E. 

Ambrose, Robert 

Atherley-Jone>, L. 

Aastin, M. (Limerick, W.) 

Bams, John 

Burt, Thomas 

Clianning, FrancU Allston 

Clark, Dr.(;.B.(Caithnes8-sh.) 

Commins, Andrew 

Crilly, Daniel 

Davitt, Michael 

Donelan, Cai>tain A. 

Doogan, P. (J. 

Farrell Thomas J. (Kerry, S.) 

Field, William (Dublin) 

Fox, Dr. Jodeph Francis 

Gibney, James 

Gilhooly, James 

Gurdon, Sir Win. Brampton 

Acland-Hood,Capt. Sir Alex. F. 
Allha«en, Augustus Henry E. 
Arehdale, Eiiward Mervyu 
Arnold, Alfred 
Amold-Forster, Hugh O. 
AttoI, Sir William 
Asher, Alexander 
Ashmead-Barclett, Sir Ellis 
Aiqaith, Rt. Hon. Herbt. Hy. \ 
Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John 
Baffot, Capt. J. FitzRoy | 

Bauey, James (Walworth) i 
B«illie,Jame8 E. B.([nvemees) 
Bainbridge, Emerson 
Baldwin, Alfred 
Balfoar, RtHn.A J.(Manch'r) 
Balfour, Rt. Hn. G.W. (Leeds) 
Banborv, Frederick George 
Barry, Rt.Hn.A.HS. (Hunts) 
Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor) 
Barton, Dunbar Plunket 
Beaumont, Wentworth C. B. 
Beckett, Ernest William 
Begg, Ferdinand Faithful I 
Bemme, Sir Henry Howe 
Bethell, Commander 
Bhownaf;gree, Sir M. M. 
Bigwood, James 
Bm, Charles | 

Blondell, Colonel Henry i 

BoUtho. Thomas Bedford 
Bond, Edward 
Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme 
Boflcawen, Arthur GrifBth- 



AYES. 
Hayden, John Patrick 
Healy, Maurice (Cork) 
Healy, Thomas. J. (Wexford) 
Healy, Timothy M. (N. Louth) 
Hemphill, Ht. Hun.CharlesH. 
Hogan, .James Francis 
Jordan, 'Feremiah 
Leuty, Thomas Richmond 
Lough, Thomas 
MacAleese, Daniel 
MacDonnell,Dr.M.A.(Qu*nsC) 
MjicNeill, John Gordon Swift 
M'Dermott, Patrick 
M(ihee, Richard 
M Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim) 
M'Leod, John 
Maddison, Fred. 
O'Hrien, Patrick (Kilkenny) 
U*Connor, .J. (Wicklow, W. 

NOES. 
BmisfieU, William Robert 
Bowleg Capt. H. F. 
Bowles, T. G. (King*8 Lynn) 
Brassey, Albert 
Hrookneld, A. Vfontagu 
Brown, Alexander H. 
Bui lard. Sir Harry 
Burdett-Coutts, W. 
Butcher, John George 
Buxton, Sydney Charles 
r^ampbell, J. H. M. (Dublin) 
Carlile, William Walter 
Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson- 
C^arson, Rt. Hon. Edward 
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.) 
Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbysh.) 
Cayzer, Sir (-harles William 
(?ecil, liOrd Hugh ((Treenwich) 
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. 
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm. ) 
C-hamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r.) 
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry 
C'harrington, Spencer 
Clare, Octavius Leigh 
Clarke,SirEdward (Plymouth) 
Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E. 
Coddington, Sir William 
Coghill, Douglas Harry 
C*ohen, Benjamin Louis 
Colston, C. E. H. Athole 
C'ompton, IjordAlwyne 
Cook, Fred Lucas (Lambeth) 
Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow) 
ComwallU, Fiennes Stan. W. 



I 



O' Kelly, James 
Pickersgill, Edward Hare 
Power, Patrick Joseph 
Redmond, William (Clare) 
Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)' 
Souttar, Robinson 
Stanhope, Hon. Philip J. 
Stead man, William Charles 
Sullivan, Donal (Westmeathy* 
Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)i 
Tanner, Charles Keams 
Tuite, James 
Wedderbum, Sir William 
Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.) 
Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) 
Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) 
Tellers for the Ayes — 

Mr. Dillon and Mr. 

Labouchere. 

Cotton-Jodrell,Col. Edw.T.D. 
Cranbome, Viscount 
Cripps, Charles Alfred 
Crorobie, John William 
Cruddas, William Donaldsoa 
Cubitt, Hon. Henry 
Currie, Sir Donald 
Curzon, Viscount 
Dalkeith, Earl of 
Dalrymple, Sir Charles 
Davenport, W. Bromley- 
Davics, Sir H. D. (Chatham) 
Denny, Colonel 
Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P. 
Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph 
Dixon- Hartlana, Sir Friwi. D. 
Dorington, Sir John Edward 
Doughty, George 
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- 
Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark) 
Douglas-Pennant, Hon. E. S. 
Doxford, William Theodore 
Drage, Geoffrey 
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. 
Dunn, Sir William 
Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart 
Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton 
Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas 
Fardell, Sir T. George 
Fellowes, Hon. Ail wynEd ward 
Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith> 
Fergu8son,Rt.Hn.Sir J. (Man. 
Fiem, Admiral (Eastbourne) 
Finch, George H. 



159 Jddress in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen' :< Speech, 



160 



.Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne 
Firl»nk, Joseph Thomas 
.Fisher, William Hayes 
Fison, Frederick William 
Fitzlierald,SirKobert Penrose- 
FitzWygram, General Sir F. 
Flannery, Sir Fortescue 
Flower,' Ernest 
Folke:?tone, Viscount 
Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) 
Foster, Harrv S. (Suflfolk) 
Fowler, lU. hon. Sir Henry 
Garfit, Williaiu 
Gedge. Sydney 
Gibbons, J. Llovd 
Gibbs, Hon. V/(St. Albans) 
(Jiles, Charles Tyrrell 
Goddard, Daniel Ford 
Godson, Sir Augustus F. 
Goldsworthy, Major! ieneral 
Gordon, Hon. John tldward 
Gorsi, Kt Hn. Sir John Eldon 
Goschen, Kt. Hn. G.J. (St. Geo) 
Gk)sciien, George J. (Susjsex. 
Goulding, Edward Alfretl 
Oray, Ernest (West Hani) 
Green, W. D. (Wednesbury) 
Greene, H. I). (Shrewsbury) 
■Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs 
Gretton, John 
Grev, Sir Edward (Berwick) 
Griftith. Ellis J. 
Gull, Sir Cameron 
Haldane, Richard Burden 
Halsey, Thomas Frederick 
Hamilton,Rt.Hon.LordGeorge 
Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Rob. Wni. 
Hanson, Sir Reginald 
Hardy, Laurence 
Hare* Thomas Leigh 
Heath, James 
Helder, Augustus 
Henderson, Alexander 
Hermon- Hodge, RobertT rotter ' 
Hickman, Sir Alfre^l 
Hill, Sir E. Stock (Bristol) 
Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hamps.) 
Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwicli) 
Hobhouse, Henry 
Hornby, Sir William Henry 
Homiman, Frederick John 
Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henrv 
Hozier, Hon. James Hy. Cecil 
Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn 
Hutton, John (Yorks, N.R.) 
■Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick 
Jenkins, Sir 'John Jones 
'John.ston, William (Belfast) 
Johnstone, Hey wood (Sussex) 
Jolliffe, Hon. ft. (ieorge 
Jones, David Bryn. (Swansea) 
Kearley, Hudson E. 
Kemp, George 

Kennaway, Rt.Hon.Sir Jn. H. , 
Kenyon, James 
Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William 
Keswick, William 
Kimber, Henry 
King, Sir Henry Seymour 
Kinloch, Sir J. (ieorge Smyth 
Kitson, Sir James 
Knowles, Lees 
Lafone, Alfretl 

Lawrence,Sir E.Dumint5(Com 
Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks.) 



Lea, Sir Thomas (Londond'y. 
Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H. 
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) 
Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrin^^n) 
J^igh-Bennett, H. Cume 
Leighton, Stanley 
Llewelyn, Sir Dilh\'yn-(Swan. 
Lockwood, Lt.Col. !\.R. 
Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham) 
Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool) 
Lowe, Francis William 
Lowles, John 

Lowther.Rt. Hon. J. W. (Cumb. 
Loyd, Archie Kirkman 
Luca8-Slia<lwell, William 
Macartney, W. (i. Ellison 
Macdona, John Gumming 
Maclver, David (Liveri)ool) 
Maclean, James Mackenzie 
Maclure, Sir John William 
M' Arthur, Charles (Liverpool) 
M'Arthur,WUliam (Cornwall) 
M'Calmont, H.L.B. (Cambs.) 
M*Calmont,Col.J.(Antrim,E.) 
M'Iyer,Sir L. c Edinburgh, W.) 
M'Killop, James 
M'Laren, Charles l^njamin 
Malcolm, Ian 
Maple, Sir John Blundell 
Marks, Henry Hananel 
Martin, Ricbard (Biddulph) 
Massey-Mainwaring,Hn. >V. F 
Mellof, Col. (Lancashire) 
Mellor, Rt. Hn. J. W. (Yorks.) 
Mendl, Si^mund Ferdinand 
Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M. 
Mifbank, Sir Powlett C. J. 
Mildmav, Francis Bingham 
Milton, Viscoant 
Milward, Colonel Victor 
Monk, Charles James 
Montagu,Hn. J. Scott (Hants) 
Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechajiel) 
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy 
More, Robt. Jas. (Shropshire) 
Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.) 
Morrell, George Herbert 
Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) 
Moulton, John Fletcher 
Muntz, Philip A. 
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) 
M urray , Charles J . ( Coven try) 
Murray, Col. Wyndham( Bath) 
Myers, William Henry 

Newark, Viscount 
Newdigate, Francis Alex. 
Nicholson, William Graham 
Nicol, Donald Ninian 
Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford 

Oldroyd, Mark 

I'almer, Sir C. M. (Durham) 
l^arkes, Ebenezer 
Paulton, James Mellor 
Pearson, Sir Weetman D. 
Pease, H. Pike (Darlington) 
Penn, John 

Philip^ John Wynford 
Pierpoint, Robert 
Pilkingt9n,R. (Lancs.,NewtoD) 
Piatt- Hiffgins, Frederick 
Powell, Su- Francis Shaip 
Pretyman, Ernest Geonre 
Priestley, Sir W. O. (EcUn.) 
Pryce- Jones, Lt.-Col. Edwaid 



Purvis, Robert 
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert 
Rankin, Sir James 
Renshaw, Charles Bine 
Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l) 
Rickett, J. Compton 
Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W. 
Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Charles T. 
Robertson, Herbert (Hackney) 
Robinson, Brooke 
Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter 
Round, James 
Royds, Clement Molyneux 
Runciman, Walter 
Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham 
Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) 
Rutherford, John 
Ryder, John Herbert Dudley 
Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert 
Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. E. J. 
Savory, Sir Joseph 
Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard 
Seely, Charles Hilton 
Seton-Karr, Henrv 
Sharpe, William E<lward T. 
Shaw, Chas. E<lw. (Staffonl) 
Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire) 
Simeon, Sir Barrington 
Sinclair, Louis (Romford) 
Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch) 
Smith, James Parker(Lanarks. 
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) 
Stanley, Hon. A. (Onnskirk) 
Stanley, E. J. (Somerset) 
Stanley, Lord (Lanes.) 
Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart 
Stone, Sir Benjamin 
Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley 
Sturt, Hon. Humphry N. 

Talliot, Lord E. (Chichester) 
Talbot,RtHn.J.G.(Oxf.Univ.) 
Thorburn, Walter 
Thornton, Percy M. 
Tollemache, Heni^ James 
Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray 
Trevelyan, Charles Philips 
Tritton, Cliarles Ernest 
Ure, Alexander 
Valentia, Viscoant 
Ward, Hn. Robert A ( Crewe) 
Warr, Aogustas Frederick 
Webster, Sir Richard E. 
Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- 
Wharton, Rt. Hn. J.. Lloyd 
Wliiteley, H. ( Ashton-ondei -L. 
Williams, J. Powell- (Birrau) 
Willoughby de Eresby, Locd 
Willox, Sir John Archibald 
Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk) 
Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.) 
Wodehoase ,Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath 
Wolff, GusUv Wilhelm 
Wortley, RtHn. C. fi. Stuart- 
Wriffhtson, Thomas 
WySe, Alexander 
Wyndham, Georffe 
W^dham-Qoin, Major W\ H. 
Wyvill, Marraaduke D'Arcy 
Yerbnrah, Robert Armstrong 
Young, Commander! Berks,E. ) 
Younger, WiUiam 

TELLER.S FOR THE NOES— 

Sir William Walrond and 
Mr. Anstmther. 



Main Question again proposed : Debate arising ; 

And, it being after midnight, the Debate stood 

Debate to be resumed to-morrow. 

House adJ4 



jo led. 



ifter Twelve o clock. 



161 



Returns, 
HOUSE OF COMMONS. 



{18 October 1899} Reports, dr. 162 

RETURNS, REPORTS, dc 



Wednesday, 18th Odohrr 1809. 



MDJTIA. 

The first LORD of the TREA- 
SURY (Mr. A. J. Balfour, Man- 
chester, K), at the P^r, acquainted 
the House that he had a Message from 



FINE OR IMPRISONMENT (SCOTLAND 
AND IRELAND) ACT, 1899 (RULES). 

Paper [presented 1 7th October] to be 
printed. [No. 4.] 

POLLING DISTRICTS (COUNTY PAL A- 
TINE OF LANCASTER). 

Copy presented, of Order made by the 



Her Majesty to this House, signed by ' County Council of the Comity Palatine 



a 

I 



a 

d 



Si 



I 

I 



ss 

n 



Her Majesty's own hand, and he pre 
sented the same to the House; and it 
was read by Mr. Speaker (all the Mem- 
bers of the House being uncovered), and 
it is as foUoweth : — 

'* Victoria R. 
" The state of affairs in South Africa 



of Lancaster, altering certain Polling 
Districts in the Parliamentary Division 
of Westhoughton [by Act] ; to lie upon 
the Table. 

POLLING DISTRICTS (WEST HAM). 
Copy presented, of Oitler made by the 



having constituted in the opinion of Her Council of the County Borough of West 
Majesty a case of great emergency within ! Ham, dividmg the Borough into Miini- 
the meaning of the Act of Parliament, i cipal and Par lamentary Polling Districts 
Her Majesty deems it proper to provide I U^Y Act] ; to lie upon the Table. 
additional means for the Military Ser\'ice, 



and therefore has thought it right to com- 
municate to the House of Commons that 
Her Majesty is hy Proclamation about to 
order the embodiment of Militia, and to 
call out Her Militia Reserve Force, or 

such part thereof as Her Majesty shall ! Division into convenient Polling Districts 
think necessary, for Permanent Service. | [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table. 



POLLINi; DISTRICTS (HERTFORD- 
SHIRE). 

Copy presented, of Order made by the 
County Council of Hertfordshire, dividing 
the Eastern or Hertford Parliamentary 



"October 1899." 

Ordered, That Her Majesty's Most 
Gracious Message be taken into considera- 
tion to-moiTow. 



NEW WRIT. 

For the Borough of Tower Hamlets 
(Bow and Bromley Division), in the room 
of the Hon. Lionel Raleigh Holland 
(Manor of Northstead). — (Sir William 
Walrand.) 

PETITIONS. 



BOROUGH FUNDS ACT, 1872. 

Petition from Kettering, for alteration 
of Law ; to lie upon the Table. 

GROUND RENTS (TAXATION BY 
LOCAL AUTHORITIES). 

Petitions in favour, from Bristol, Llan- 
winion, and Ley ton ; to lie upon the 
Table. 

VOL. LXXVn. [Fourth Series.] 



TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION ACT, 1889. 

Copies presented, of Minutes sanction- 
ing the subjects to bo taught under 
Clause 8 of the Act, for the following 
Counties, <V'C. : — 

County of Berkshire (Third 
Minute), dated 27th July, 1899 ; 

County Borough of Portsmouth 
(Fifth Minute), dated IGth August, 
1899; 

County of the Soke of Peterborough 
(Seventh Minute), dated 5th Sep- 
tember, 1899 ; 

County Borough of Oldham (Sixth 
Minuu»), dated 5th September, 
1899; 

County of (Glamorgan (Eighth 
Minute), dated 5th September, 
1899; 

City and County Borough of Bir- 
mingham (Fifth Minute), dated 
27th September, 1899 

[by Act] ; to lie upon the Table. 
F 



163 



Business of 



{COMMONS} 



the Home. 



164 



SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1884. 

Copies presented, — of Treasury Minutes 
(ioclaring that the under-mentioned per- 
sona were appointed to the oflfices set 
against their names without a Civil Ser- 
vice Certificate through inadvertence on 
the part of the Heads of their Depart- 
ments, viz. : — 

Mr. R. D. Herring, Legation Con- 
stable, Pekin, Consular Service 
dated 5th August, 1899; 

Mr. Hanmer Lewis Dupuis, formerly 
Clerk, Tangier Mission, Foreign 
Office, dated 2nd September, 1899 ; 

Mary Byrne, Sub-Postmistress, Beau- 
maris, Post Office Department, 
dated 28th September, 1899; 

[by Act] ; to lie upon the Table. 

SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1887. 

Copy presented, — of Treasury Minute, 
dated 20th September, 1899, granting a 
retired allowance to Mr. Charles Lewis 
James, Assistant Clerk in the Local 
Government Board, under Section 2 of 
the Act [by Act] ; to lie upon the Table. 



QUESTIONS.— RIGHTS OF PRIVATE 

MEMBERS. 

. Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL (Donegal, 
S,) : I desire to call attention to a matter 
which I think is of urgent importance to 
the rights of private Members. Among 
the notices of motion which stood on the 
Paper distributed to-day is one in my 
name for to-morrow. It reads as 
follows — 

"To asjk tlie Secretary of State for tlie 
Colonies whetlier any steps have been taken 
to fix the sum due to the South African Re- 
public in payment of the indemnity of the 
Jameson raid which he expressed himself as 
willing to submit to arbitration." 

With that question I put another clause, 
which I deemed of importance but which 
has been eliminated at the Table — 
namely — 

" Whether the declaration of war releasee 
tlie Chartered Company from their primary 
indemnitv to i)ay the expenses of the Jameson 
raid." ^ 

What I wish to know is under what cir- 
cumstances it has been eliminated. If 
you, Sir, have eliminated it, I respectfully 
bow to your decision, but if it has l>ecn 



eliminated by a clerk at the Table I de- 
sire to know under what circumstances a 
private Member is to be treated in that 
way. 

*Mr. SPEAKER: I have only just 
learned from the statement of the hon. 
Member of the existence of this question 
or that there was any further paragraph 
to it. If there has been any paragraph 
omitted it has been done either because it 
was thought by the clerk irregular or per 
incuriam. I am quite sure that if the para- 
graph was omitted by the clerk on the 
ground of irregularity it is by mistake 
that the clerk has not communicated with 
the hon. Member himself. It has always 
been the practice to do so, where possible, 
and if the clerk has not done it on this 
occasion it is an oversight. I will make 
inquiries. 



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSK 

Mr. lewis (Flint Boroughs) : I desire 
to ask the First Lord of the Treasury 
whether by his reply to the right hon. 
Baronet the Meml)er for the Forest of 
Dean, yesterday, he intended to convey 
that Members would, when the House re- 
assembled next year, have the same 
opportunity of discussing specific questions 
of policy and of taking the sense of the 
House separately on those questions that 
they would have if the legislative pro- 
gramme of the session were then set forth 
in a Speech from the Throne. 

The FIRST LORD of the TREA- 
SURY ^Mr. A. J. Balfour, Manchester, 
E.) : What I intended to convey, and 
what I think I said, was that there would 
not be a second Queen's Speech, and that 

' I would follow out, as far as I could, the 
precedent started l)y Sir Stafford North- 

\ cote, and followed by Mr. Gladstone, 
which would give to hon. Members an 
opportunity of raising definite questions 
upon the programme of the Government. 
The right hon. Gentleman the Member 
for the Forest of Dean pointed out that 
probably the change made in the rules of 
the House subse<inent to those precedents 
would necessitate some alteration. That 
is a matter into which I shall certainly 
carefully look, with the only desire to see 
that if any alteration is made it is not, at 
all events, in the direction of curtailing 
the privileges of hon. Meml)ers. 



165 Gotfernmenf {18 6ctober 1899} Busimss, 166 

Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN departed from in the direction, I hope, of 
^Stiriing Burghs) : It would be irregular giWng further liberty to hon. Gentle- 
to have any discussion, but perhaps I men ; that will be my desire. 
may put my observations in the form of a ! 

Question — namely, whether the right hon. ; Mr. LABOUCHERE (Northampton) : 
h^ntleman will bear in mind that it is an ' I would like to ask the right hon. Gentle- 
important part of the privileges of hon. man, is it not a fact that if there be no 



Members when the Address is under dis- 



second Queen's Speech there is no pos- 



<niS88ion that they can not only call atten- j sible way of giving us the same facilities 

.• . l**j 1*11 ^ • I* * A 1 J li*l**1* 



of moving Amendments and of dividing 
upon them 1 



tion to any subject to which they desire 

to call the attention of the House, but 

that they may take the opinion of the 

House upon it ; and whether he can dis- 1 Mr. A. J. BALFOUR : I really do 

<over any method by which on going into l not think I can add anything to the 

0)mmittee of Supply or on any stage of I answer I have given. 

that sort a similar privilege can possibly ' 

he given to Members of the House. 

Mr. A. J. BALFOUR : Where the BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE, 

ingenuity of Sir Stafford Northcote and nr\\rT?T>\r\Tv>\:rr ut-ctvtitcc 

Mr. Gladstone failed I have not any great 

hopes that 1 shall succeed, but the matter Mr. A. J. BALFOUR : I beg to move 
«hall be carefully considered. : — " That during the autumn sittings no 

! motions for leave to bring in Bills be 

Mr. LEWIS : As there seems to l)e | given except by a Minister of the Crown, 
:dome doubt as to what the procedure next I that on every day Government business 
year will be, I desire to ask now whether | do have precedence, and at the conclusion 
it will not be competent on the present | thereof Mr. Speaker do adjourn the 
Queen's Speech for private Members to ! House without question put, and that 
move such amendments as are generally \ the provisions of Standing Order No. 56 
moved on a Queen's Speech at the com- i be extended to all the days of the week." 
meucement of a session. I I do not think that in any great part of 



♦Mr. SPEAKER: No doubt it is in 
order to put down such amendments. 



the House there will be any objection to 
this motion, because even thqse who think 
it is most unjust that the Government 
should desire to curtail their liberty in 
Mr. HUMPHREYS -OWEN (Mont- , discussing matters on the Address wUl 
gomery) : The right hon. Gentleman said ■ not be affected by it. All the motion 
certain questions might be raised. Does does is to say that when the Address is 
that mean that no questions except those concluded the rest of the time that this 
which touch upon the statement the ' autumn session may take up will be 
right hon. Gentleman proposed to make | entirely devoted to the business for which 
could be discussed by the House ? : we are called together. That is a plan 

so obviously in accordance with common- 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : 1 made no sense and so calculated to meet the 

statement one way or the other ; I simply i general convenience of the House that 

referred the House to the precedents. : I trust it will pass without discussion or 

' division. 
Mr. CHANNING (Northamptonshire, 
R) : Are we to understand that when the Motion made, and Question proposed, 
House reassembles next year a sufficient I '' That during the Autumn Sittings no 
length of time will be allowed to enable motions for leave to bring in Bills be 
Menabers to raise all the issues they may i given except by a Minister of the Crown ; 
consider important in the interest of their that on every day Government Business 
constituents? ! do have precedence, and at the conclusion 

, thereof Mr. Speaker do adjourn the 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : I propose to | House without Question put ; and that 

follow as nearly as possible the precedent ( the provisions of Standing Order No. 56 

aet in 1878 and 1885. In so far as that I be extended to all the davs of the week."— 

precedent is departed from it will be I {Mr. A. J. Balfour,) 

' F 2 



{COMMONS} Bminess. 16& 

Sir H. CAMPBELL-BAKKERMAN l have of bringing forward their viewa and 



I presume that this motion, which 



of obtaining the judgment of the House 



itself a reasonable one, raises the general npon them. What doea the right hon, 
question of business, and that therefore Gentleman gain by not making 



we can upon it ask from the Government ■ this 
some further light as to the reason for Does 
not regarding this as a separate 



itaelf ? 



♦Mr. speaker : I would point out 



separate 
not solely avoid a second 

Speech ? If this had been 
lotus teres at que rotuadus ^ssion 
itself, there would have been no 



that in strictness this motion does not T^^J'^" V^^ regard to voting, 

raise any ouestion relating to the Address ™« Address in reply to the Speech from 

or to the mode of dealing with the the Throne, for we should then have had 

Address, but perhaps it is the general ^"^ ordinary opportuniU' of raising ques- 

wish of the House that some latitude f'""^ "? ''?"''*[? or February next. I 

should be allowed. mvite the right hon. trentleroan to explain 

with a little more precision the advantage 

I to be obtained from the course he haa 

Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN : adopted. 

To put it plainly, we should like to know | 

what the '"iv.nljges "e which the [ ^^ j^ j BALFOUR , I nnd.ntmd 
Government thmk they den.e from I ,„„ g. ^^^ ,^,„ j, . 

making h,. the eommeneement of the irreg^Liiy in this dtau-ion, but that it 
.eeaion of next year .n.tead of havmg ,t „ Jj j,, /„ j^ convenience of the Hou«, 
a .pecia .ess.on hy iMelf. I. th.r. any ,„ ^ ^^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Gentlennm 
other advanMge m that course than the ha. to say npon the question and what I 
advantage of avoiding a second Oueens v 4. ■ 1 tu ■ li. 1. 

c iTT *„.i;t.i.„.;A..„ „„),.„ j..„„..,„ have to urge in reply. The nght hon, 

under the im- 
>t some dark 



auvaiitage ui avoiuiiig a seconu i^ueeii s j^^^^ j.^ -^ ■ -^^ ■. 
Speech? And if that is the only advantage, c„ t^ ^ „\. _.v. 
u^. .!.„ ^„i... !.„„ r.™.i °. Gentleman appears to b 



how can the right hon. Gentleman say ^-ggg-g,, 
that, after all, wo shall have all the privi- j „),„_,„ 
leges and opportunities that a second ^ 
Queen's Speech would give us ? The light 
hon. Gentleman says that as far as possible 
he will obberve precedent. I will take the I ^°* ** *"■ 
case of 1878. How different the whole posi- ' 
tion of the House in relation to its business j Mr. 
is now from what it was then. Every- I policy. 
B knows now that the Address in reply 



Sir H. CAMPBELI^BANNEEMAN : 



L J. BALFOUR : Some occult 

The reasons which animated 

matter are the ordinary 



to the Speech from the Throne is the motives by which I think every Leader 
main opportunity which independent | of the House is animated — namely, a 



Members of the House possess of bring- ' desire 
ing forward those subjects which they precedent 
wish to have discussed, which they 



parallel cases to follow 
unless there seems to be 
exceptional 



wish not only to advocate and to ex- stance which makes precedent inapplic- 
patiate upon, but also to take the able. That really is not the case now. 
judgment of the House upon. Whether ; There are two precedents as far as I 
that is a convenient system or not I need ' know, and only two — the precedents o£ 
not inquire. It may be that sometimes it j 1878 and of 1885. If my memory serves- 
is carried on to such extreme length that me right, what took place in 1878 was 
it is exceedingly inconvenient — that is this. Parliament had to be summoned in 
quite possible — but it is the fact that the theautumntodeal with the problem of the 
Address forms the main opportunity of Afghan War, justas now wearemettodeal 
bringing up subjects for discussion. The ' with the problem of the South African 
occasions upon which separate subjects , war. There wasthena Queen's Speechsub- 
can be brought forward in Supply have stantially confined to the issue which had 
been notoriously restricted. I am rather caused Parliament to be called toother. 
a partisan of the restriction, therefore I ' The sittings terminated with an acfjoum- 
am not complaining of the process ; but \ ment. The House met again in Feb- 
let us recognise that the process has I ruary, and there was a Ministerial state- 
taken place. This, therefore, is the r ment. Upon that discussion arose and 
great oppoitunity independent Members at least one division look place. I think 



169 



Government 



{18 October 1899} 



Business. 



170 



4here was one on the Amendment and one 
on the main question. The course then 
•adopted by the Government was criticised 
Jieither by the Leader of the Opposition 
here or in the other House. So much 
ior the precedent of 1878, which seems 
exactly on all fours with the present case. 
Then comes the precedent of 1885. The 
.-session of 1884 was terminated by an 
•adjournment, not prorogation. It met 
•again in February, 1885, when Mr. Glad- 
■stone made a short statement on the 
business before the House, and I think on 
4ome foreign affairs. I do not think there 
*was a division or a discussion. The right 
lion. Gentleman says that since 1878 
there has been a great extension of the 
^discussion on the Queen's Speech. 

Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT (Mon- 
mouthshire, W.) : But a great curtail- 
ment of other opportunities. 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : I am not sure 
Ahat the increase of facilities for discussion 
on the Queen's Speech is regarded with 
universal favour bv those, to whatever 
party they belong, who are interested in 
^he progress of pu])lic business. A Divi- 
sion on the Queen's Speech is never, and 
never can be, a Division on the merits of 
Xhe question at issue, but it is a more or 
less successful device for turning a 
Oovemment out of office. The general 
<K>urse of the Government has not been 
devised for curtailing the liberties of 
Members, but simply] with a view to 
following out, in a new case, the prece- 
dents previously set, first by one party 
.and then by another, on similar occasions 
in the past. 

Mr. BUCHANAN (Aberdeenshire, E.) : 
The right hon. Gentleman bases his whole 
•case on the two precedents of 1878 and 
1885. May I be permitted to point out 
that they have no bearing on the present 
case 1 In 1885 Mr. Gladstone expressly 
•disclaimed that what was done in 1878 
was any precedent for what was done in 
1885, because the two cases were entirely 
different. What was done in the autumn 
-of 1884 is no precedent for the resolution 
hefove the House, because the Speech con- 



tained many topics, and the debate upon 
it lasted nine nights, and ranged over a 
variety of subjects. Moreover, private 
Bills were introduced, and business went 
on through October, November, and 
December in the ordinary way. Now let 
us go back to the precedent of 1878. It 
is not correct that no adverse comment 
was made on the action taken by the 
Government of the day. A. statement 
was made by no less a person than the 
then Leader of the Opposition, Lord 
Hartington, who took the line of argu- 
ment adopted now by my right hon. 
friend the present Leader of the Oppo- 
sition. What will be the position of the 
general body of Members of the House 
in February next, when the session is 
resumed 1 I have never moved an 
Amendment to the Address, and I do 
not suppose I ever shall, but it is a 
valuable privilege. Suppose, during the 
three months we adjourn, the war goes on 
— and there is no doubt that it is a subject 
of great interest throughout the whole 
country — or suppose other subjects of 
national interest turn up, what oppor- 
tunities will hon. Members have of calling 
attention to them 1 There is the vote of 
censure, the adjournment of the House, 
and there are the Foreign and Colonial 
Office Votes. The Leader of the House 
would decline to recognise a vote of 
censure unless moved by the Leader of 
the Opposition. With regard to the 
Foreign and Colonial Office Votes, it is 
within the common knowledge of the 
House that the First Lord of the Treasury 
— no doubt to the general convenience of 
Members — fixes the time the Votes should 
be taken, and the amount of time to be 
devoted to the discussion of them. 
Again, a motion for adjournment, though 
open to all Members, is an awkward way 
of raising a discussion, and, it never pro- 
duces a very satisfactory debate. So that, 
practically, we lose all opportunity of fairly 
criticising any specific matter arising out 
of the policy of the Government at home 
or abroad during the next three months. 
I say that that is a most unfair position 
to put the House of Commons in. The 
first three days of the session are broken 
days, and I would suggest that the 
Leader of the House should assign the 
first three days of next session for the 
general discussion of public affairs ; or 
why should not the House be pro- 
rogued in the ordinary way, and a new 
session begun in February ? The expendi- 



171 



G&ue^tinwnt 



{COMMQJ^Sl 



JSmm^. 



112 



ture of time would be some three or four 
days, and the gain in convenience would 
be great. 

Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT : I do 
not rise to press the right hon. Gentle- 
man for an answer now : he has very fairly 
stated that he is willing to consider the 
matter. This is a very serious question 
in regard to the privileges of the House, 
and I am quite sure, from the language 
and conduct of the right hon. Gentleman, 
that he would never desire to use the 
power of a majority to impair the rights 
of the minority. The question of the 
Queen's Speech is a very serious question : 
the Speecfi is a very ancient and funda- 
mental part of the constitution of Parlia- 
ment. When the Queen calls Parliament 
together she states in the opening of an 
ordinary session the objects with which 
Parliament is assembled. Now in this \ 
what I may call interim session, of which 
nobody complains, one subject, the war 
now proceeding, is stated as the object of 
calling Parliament together, and the Queen 
may never state the general objects of 
the session of Parliament. It is part of 
the accepted conditions of a Queen's 
Speech that, generally speaking, it shall 
state to the House of Commons what are 
to be the principal subjects the House 
is to have under discussion. The right 
hon. Gentleman has said that Amend- 
ments to the Address in reply to the 
Queen's Speech are not important — 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : I did not say 
they were unimportant. I said that a 
division on an Amendment could not be 
taken as a decision on the question 
specifically raised by the Amendment. 

Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT : In a 
sense no doubt that is so ; an Amendment 
to the Address being adopted has the 
effect of throwing out the Government. 
But Amendments to the Address are used 
for the purpose of bringing subjects under 
Parliamentary discussion, subjects that 
would not otherwise come under con- 
sideration, and in reference to many sub- 
jects it may legitimately be said that the 
debate on the Address is the birthplace 
of measures ultimately carried through 
Parliament. Now, Sir, there are special 
reasons why the House should not be 
deprived of that power of discussion. In 
the next session the war may still be 
going on, and very serious matters may 

Mr, Bitchunan. 



ariee in relation to foreign a&irs, 4»u^ i» 
are often, in fact, usually, made the sub- 
ject of discussion on the Address. There- 
fore it seems to me, so far from this being; 
a condition of things which shouloi 
diminish the right of discussion, circum- 
stances may arise making it specially 
important that at the beginning of next 
year the House should have free and full 
opportunity of discussion, and, if neces- 
sary, of division. The right hon. Gentle- 
man has referred to two precedents, but 
that of 1885 is directly contrary to that 
of 1878, and on consideration I think he 
will see the precedent of 1885 is rather 
against than in favour of the procedure he- 
now proposes. As regards 1878, which 1 
remember perfectly well, the impression. 
on my mind is that the procedure- 
adopted at the suggestion of Sir Staf- 
ford Northcote was not satisfactory. I 
ventured to interrupt the right hon. 
Gentleman just now with the remark 
that since 1885 opportunities for 
Members to raise discussions had been 
reduced, and that is my impression. I 
have myself, perhaps, been a guilty party 
in taking more and more time from 
private Members, and the demand of 
Governments for more time is made at 
earlier periods than formerly, and thus- 
many opportunities that would otherwise 
arise for raising discussion are excluded^ 
I would like the right hon. Gentleman 
to reconsider what appears to be his pre-^ 
sent view of the matter. I do not see 
what advantage would be gained by 
having an adjournment instead of a pro- 
rogation. In all these precedents the ad- 
journment has been for a comparatively 
short period. In 1878 the debates upon 
the subject of the special session ended 
just before Christmas, and the adjourn- 
ment was to February. That is what 
may be called an adjournment of the 
House, but an adjournment frOm October 
to February can hardly be called an ad- 
journment ; it does not come within the 
meaning of the term. If you drop into 
the habit of adjourning for four or five 
months, why not adjourn for six, seven^ 
eight months ? Of course that is putting 
an extreme case. We ought to be very, 
careful to prevent the establishment of 
what I call an unconstitutional precedents 
An adjournment should cover a short 
and not a long period. It was a short 
period in 1878, from just before Chrittc 
mas until early in February. So, in. 
1884, the special sitting went on until 



17,3 



Gouei'mnenf 



{18 October 1899} 



Business. 



IH 



nearly Christmas, and Parliament met; 
again in February. That may fairly be 
called an adjournment, but from 
October to February is an abuse of 
the term adjournment. Therefore I can- 
not see that we are asking the Government 
to place themselves or the House in any 
position of disadvantage or inconvenience 
in asking for a prorogation instead of an 
adjournment. It seems to me the natural 
and legitimate way to proceed. To take 
the other course would be unusual and, I 
think, not in conformity with the prece- 
dents referred to ; it would deprive the 
minority of the House of opportunities 
which are of great vahie and might be of 
special value at the meeting of the House 
in February. I would therefore ask the 
right hon. Gentleman not to announce his 
final decision now, and I hope he may see 
his way to terminate this present session 
with a prorogation, 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR: I must ask 
the House to bear with me for a third 
time. I have listened with great atten- 
tion to the appeals made from various 
quarters of the House, made, I am bound 
to say, with great modeiation, and in a 
tone of which I have no reason to com- 
plain. The right hon. Gentleman who 
has just sat down, and I think the Leader 
of the Opposition, would desire to see the 
session terminated as soon as we have 
finished the business for which we are 
called together, and a new session com- 
menced next year : and that desire was 
also expressed by the hon. Member for 
East Aberdeenshire, who suggested or 
asked me to consider another plan, by 
which any discussion thought desirable 
should not be confined to one night but 
should be given an extended duration. I 
will look into the matter, and will only 
now say that the last thing we on this 
bench desire, and everybody on this side 
desires, is to curtail the privileges of the 
House or the full libert}- of discussion con- 
stitutionally enjoyed by Members. We are 
quite aware that under the happy institu- 
tions under which we live we find our- 
selves sometimes in a majority, sometimes 
in a minority, and none of us if so minded^ 
if sufficiently unprincipled as to de- 
sire for particular ends to ciutail the 
liberties of Members, are so foolish 
as to take action the result of 
which might recoil upon ourselves. The 
House will perhaps allow me to think the 
matter over and consider the various cir- 



QumstaBces.of the case. I still think— I 
will not argue it again — that the weight 
of precedent is in favour of the '^ourse L 
suggested, but the whole matter shall 
have impartial consideration, and I hope 
on Thursday, if asked a question, to state 
our decision. 

*SiR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucester, 
Forest of Dean) : There are two questions 
I desire to ask. One is whether Supple- 
mentary Estimates other than those con- 
nected with South Africa will be taken 
during the session. 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : No, Sir. 

*SiR CHARLES DILKE : The other 
question is one which arose in the course 
of last session. With regard to Orders 
required to be laid on the Table of the 
House, will facilities be given for discus; 
sion in the event of a motion in reference 
thereto being thought necessary 1 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : Perhaps the 
right hon. Gentleman will communicatev 
with me privately. I am very anxioijs 
that the rule as to Orders being on the 
Table for forty days should remain a 
reality and not become a farce. 

*Mr. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn 
Regis) : 1 am extremely gratified that Her 
Majesty's Government have not finally 
committed themselves to an adjournment 
of the session. The rule of Parliament 
allowing Amendments to the Address 
adequately meets the present position, 
but it may be that in February now 
emergencies may arise justifying other 
Amendments to the Address. We are 
now engaged in a sad and serious enter- 
prise of great moment, and when Parlia- 
ment meets again in February events of 
great gravity may require Parliamentary 
discussion through the medium of 
the reply to the Queen's Speech. 
These things should weigh very strongly 
with the right hon. Gentleman in recon- 
sidering the matter as to whether the 
method of prorogation should not be 
adopted rather than that of adjournment. 
There is another consideration which has 
been suggested to me by the right hon. 
Gentleman the Member for Plymouth; 
that is whether, in the case of a mere 
adjournment to a definite date, if any. 
emergency should arise rendering the 
calling together of Parliament again^ 



1^ s 
to 



Government 



{COMMONS} 



Busines'i. 



176 



necessary, you would have any method 
of doing 80. I very much question 
whether you would have any power of 
calling Parliament together to consider 
that emergency. I hold that, on the 
whole, the preferable way will be to 
prorogue instead of to adjourn, to give 
us a second Queen's Speech, and a second 
opportunity for hon. Members opposite 
to put down Amendments to the Address 
with regard to matters which may have 
then arisen. I would now refer to the 
Kesolution before the House. Nobody 
is more convinced than I am of the neces- 
sity of maintaining the rights of private 
Members ; nobody is more convinced 
than I am that those rights are taken 
away with increasing frequency and in- 
creasing severity ; and 1 must say that 
when the right hon. Gentleman the Leader 
of the House tells us that the oppor- 
tunities for discussing the Estimates 
have increased I am somewhat startled, 
because I remember that something 
like 50 out of a total of 150 Votes 
were closured automatically, without any 
discussion whatever upon them, during 
tjie last days of the session recently con- 
cluded. But strongly as I feel about the 
rights of private Members, I do as 
strongly feel upon this occ^ision that Her 
Majesty's Government have a most com- 
plete and unanswerable case for asking to 
be given the whole of the time of the 
House during this special session. There- 
fore I shall have no hesitation in voting 
for the motion. But there is one point 
to which I should like to call the right hon. 
Gentleman's attention. He proposes that 
Standing Order 56 should apply to every 
sitting of the House — that is that you. Sir, 
should leave the chair, whenever Supply 
is to be taken, without question put. In 
an ordinary session that is saved by the 
clause that on the first day of Supply, on 
the Votes for the Army, Navy, or Civil 
Service, an Amendment may l^e moved 
on your leaving the chair, in order that 
grievances may be brought forward 
referring to either of the classes of Esti- 
mates intended to be considered. That 
is a \'indication of the ancient and most 
important rule of Parliament, that 
grievances should precede Supply. But 
if no such Amendment is to be allowed 
upon this occasion we should have 
Supply l^efore grievances — Supply first, 
and grievances afterwards, or not at 
all. I understand that the method 
by which Her Majesty's Government 

Mr. Gibson Bowies. 



propose to proceed is by that of 
Supplementary E^timat^s. Upon Supple- 
mentary Estimates there is no first leaving 
the chair, because you are supposed to 
have left the chair when the original 
Estimate was raised, of which these 
Supplementary Estimates are the corol- 
laries. But, in this instance, the Supple- 
mentary Estimates arise from serious 
questions of policy ; it is not an addition 
to the Army which we ask for in the 
ordinary way ; it is an addition to the 
Army from a new state of things, a new 
war, an entirely novel enterprise. There- 
fore, what I would submit is that prac- 
tically the House will be deprived, first of 
all, of its general power of making griev- 
ances precede Supply, and then I am not 
quite sure that the House will not be 
precluded, when Members come to consider 
the Supplementary Estimates, from criti- 
cising the policy out of which those 
Supplementary Estimates arise. Dis- 
cussion on Supplementary Estimates is 
strictly confined to the Estimate itself, 
and usually questions of policy are ex- 
cluded. I ])elieve, however, it is the rule 
that although in the ordinary course of 
events Supplementary Estimates do not 
give rise to any right to discuss the 
policy on which the original Estimates are 
founded, nevertheless, if those Supple- 
mentary Estimates are such as to involve 
a new departure in policy, that policy 
may be discussed. The question here 
will be as to which of those two rules the 
Supplementary Estimates come under. My 
own opinion is that these Supplementary 
Estimates do disclose and are founded 
upon a new policy which has not been 
previously submitted to the House, and 
consequently that it will be proper that 
the House should be allowed to discuss 
that policy. If that be not so, then under 
the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman 
the House will be deprived of its ancient 
right to make grievances precede Supply. 

Mr. swift MacNEILL: Perhaps 
the right hon. Gentleman would kindly 
permit me to suggest this for his con- 
sideration. The right hon. Gentleman is, 
of course, perfectly aware that when the 
House stands adjourned it stands 
adjourned on the action of the House 
itself. Adjournment is absolutely dis- 
tinct from prorogation. The latter is 
the act of the Crown applying to 
l)oth House^i, while adjournment is the 
act of the House itself and applying to 



177 



Govei^ment 



{18 October 1899} 



Business. 



178 



that House alone. If this House ten 
days hence stood adjourned till the 13th 
or 14th February I believe that no power, 
not even that of the Crown, could be 
legally exercised to call Parliament 
together before that day. Even in regard 
to prorogation to a definite time by the 
act of the Crown, it was not possible for 
the Crown to summon Parliament in the 
interval until some early statutes were 
discovered by which the diflficulty was 
surmounted. 

Dr. CLARK (Caithness) : Might I ask 
the right hon. Gentleman to finish his 
motion at the word " precedence " ; that 
would only compel him to move the 
adjournment of the House. No one can 
assert that the asking of a question on the 
motion for the adjournment of the House 
has ever been used for the purposes of 
obstruction. It cannot be brought 
forward for that reason. On the other 
hand, if the motion is passed in the form 
proposed the House will be prevented 



having control over the large and 
increasing number of Orders which have 
to lie on the Table of the House for a 
number of days. The right hon. Gentle- 
man has admitted that some modification 
is required, and he has told the right hon. 
Baronet that he will consider some method 
by which these Orders can be considered 
by the House. Under these circumstances, 
unless the right hon. Gentleman can give 
satisfactory reasons, I beg to move the 
elision of the words after " precedence." 

Amendment proposed — 

"To leave out the words from the word 
* precedence ' to tlie end of the Question." — 
{Dr. Clark.) 

Question, " That the words proposed to 
be left out stand part of the Question," 
put, and agreed to. 

Main Question put. 

The House divided : — Ayes, 279 ; 
Noes, 48. (Division List, No. 3.) 



Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F. 
Aird, John 

Allen, William (Gateshead) 
Allhosen, Augustus Henry E. 
Allsopp, Hon. George 
Archdale, £dward Mervyn 
Arnold, Alfred 
Amold-Forster, Hugh O. 
Arrol, Sir William 
Atkinson, Kt. Hon. John 
Bailey, James (Walworth) 
Baillie, J. £. B. (Inverness) 
Bainbridge, Emerson 
Baldwin, Alfred 
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Man) 
Balfour, Rt. Hn.G. W. (Leeds) 
Banbury, Frederick George 
Barry,RtHn A HSmith-( Hunts 
Barry,SirFrancis T. ( Windsor) 
Barton, Dunbar Plunket 
Beach, W.W.Bramston (Hants 
Beckett, Ernest William 
Bethell, Commander 
Biddulph, Michael 
Bigwood, James 
Bin, Charles 
BiUson, Alfred 
Blakiston* Houston, John 
Blundell, Colonel Henry 
Bolitho, Thomas Bedford 
Bond, Edward 
Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn) 
Brassev, Albert 
Brookneld, A. Montagu 
Bryce, Rt. Hon. James 
Buchanan, Thomas Rybum 
Burt, Thomas 
Batcher, John George 
Buxton, Sydney Charles 
Caldwell, James 



AYES. 

Campbell, J. H. M. (Dublin) 
Campbell -Bannemian, Sir H. 
Causton, Richard Knight 
Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.) 
Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh. 
Chaloner, Captain R. G. W. 
Chamberlain.Rt. Hon. J.(Birm. 
Chamberlain,J.Austen(Worc'r 
Channing, Francis Allston 
Clare, Octavius Leigh 
Clarke, Sir Edw. (Plymouth) 
Cochrane, Hon. Thos, H. A. E. 
Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready 
Colston, Chas. YA. H. Athole 
Colville, John 

Corbett, A.Caraeron(Glasgow) 
Cotton- Jodrell, Col. Edw.T.D. 
Cranbome, Viscount 
Cross, Alexander (Glasgow) 
Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton) 
Crnddas, William Donaldson 
Cubitt, Hon. Henry 
Curzon, Viscount 
Dalkeith, Earl of 
Dalrymple, Sir Charles 
DavieSjM. VauKhan-(Cardigan 
Denny, Colonel 
Dewar, Arthur 
Doughty. George 
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- 
Dougl&s, Charles M. (Lanark) 
Doxford, William Theodore 
Drage, Geoffrey 
Duckworth, James 
Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V. 
Dyke,Rt.Hn.SirWilliam Hart 
Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas 
Ellis, John Edward 
Emmott, Alfred 1 
Fardell, Sir T. George 



Farquharson, Dr. Robert 
Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward 
Fenwick, Charles 
Finch, George H. 
Finlay, Sir liobert Bannatyne 
Fisher, William Hayes 
Fison, Frederick William 
FitzGerald,SirRobertPenrose- 
Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond 
FitzWygnim, General Sir F. 
Flannery. Sir Fortescue 
Fletcher, Sir Henry 
Flower, Ernest 
Folkestone, Viscount 
Forster, Henry William 
Foster, Colonel (Lancaster) 
Galloway, W. Johnson 
GarBt, William 
Gedge, Sydney 
Gibbons, J. Lloyd 
Giles, Charles tyrrell 
Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbt. John 
Goddard, Daniel Ford 
Godson.SirAugustusFrederick 
Goldswortliy, Major-General 
Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon 
Goschen,Rt.Hn.G.J.(St.Geo.*8 
Goulding, Edward Alfred 
Gourley, Sir Edw. Temperley 
Graham, Henry Robert 
Green, Waif ordD. Wednesbury 
Gretton, John 

Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick) 
Gull, Sir Cameron 
Gurdon, Sir Wm. Brampton 
Haldane, Richard Burdon 
Hamilton,Rt. Hn. Lord George 
Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W. 
Hanson, Sir R^^ald 
Hare, Thomas Leigh 



179 



Guivermient 



H^wood, (jleorge 
Haslett, Sir James Horner 
Heath, James 

Hedderwick, Thomas Chas. H. 
Helder, Aufiriistus 
Hemphill, Kt. Hon. Chas. H. 
Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter 
Hickman, Sir Alfred 
Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol) 
Hoare, Edw. BrodielHampstd. 
Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich) 
Hobhouse, Henry 
Holland, William Henry 
Homiman, Frederick John 
Hozier,Hon. James Henry Cecil 
Hudson, Cieorge Bickersteth 
Hutton, John (Yorks. N.R.) 
Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies 
Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick 
Jenkins, Sir John Jones 
Jessel, Captain Herbert M. 
Johnston, William (Belfast) 
Johnstone, Hey wood (Sussex) 
Jolliffe, Hoia. H. Oeorge 
Jones, D. Brvnmor (Swansea) 
Kay-Shuttleworth,RtHn SirU 
Kenyon, James 
Kenyon-SIaney, Col. William 
King, Sir Henry Seymour 
Kitson, Sir James 
Knowles, Lees 
Lafone, Alfred 
Lambert,! xeorjje 
Lawrence,SirE. Duni ing- (Corn 
Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool) 
Lawson, John (irant (Yorks.) 
Lea, Sir Thoinas(Londonderry) 
Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead) 
Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington) 
Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie 
Leigbton, Stanley 
LlewelyD,SirDill wyn - (Swans'a 
Lockwood, Lieut. -Col. A. R. 
Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine 
Long, Col. Charles W.( Evesham 
Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (L'pool) 
Lowe, Francih William 
Lowther, RtHnJW(Cumb'rnd 
Loyd, Archie Kirk man 
Lucas- Shad well, William 
Macartney, \V. (i. Ellison 
Macdona, John Cumming 
Maclver, Davitl (Liverpool) 
Maclean, Jame:? Mackenzie 



{COMMONS} 

Maclure, Sir John William 
M*Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs. 
M'Crae, George 
M'lver, Sir L(Edinburgh, W.) 
M'Kenna, Reginald 
M'Killop, James 
Maddison, Fred. 
Malcolm, Ian 
Martin, Richard Biddulph 
Mellor, Rt. Hon. J. W.( Yorks. 
Meysey-Thonipson, Sir H. M. 
Middlemore, J. Throgmorton 
Monk, Charles James 
Moon, Edward Robert Pacy 
More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire 
Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh 
Morley, Charles (Breconshire) 
Morrell, George Herbert 
Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford) 
Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute) 
Murray, Charles J. (Coventry) 
Murray ,Col.Wyndham (Batn) 
Myers, William Henry 
Newdigate, Francis Alexander 
Nicholson, William Graham 
Nicol, Donald Ninian 
Northcote, Hon SirH. Stafford 
Nussey, Thomas Willans 
Oldroyd, Mark 

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens 
Parkes, Ebenezer 
Par. 1 ton, James Mellor 
Pease, Herbert T. (Darlington) 
Penn, John 

Pilkington,R. (Lanes, Newton 
Pilkington,SirG. A(Lanc8,S W) 
Piatt- Higgins, Frederick 
Powell, Sir Francis Sharp 
Pry ce- Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward 
Purvis, Robert 
Pym, C. Guy 
Quilter, Sir Cuthbert 
Randell, David 
Rankin, Sir James 
Renshaw, Charles Bine 
Richardson, J. (Diirham,S.E.) 
Richardson,SirThos.( Hartlep'l 
Round, James 
Royds, Clement MoljTieux 
Rus8ell,Gen. F. S. (Cheltenh'm) 
Russell, T. W. (Tyrone) 
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) 
Sassoop, Sir Edward Albert 
Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard 



BmiM68, 



160 



Scott, Sir S. (Marleybone, W.> 
Seeley, Charles Hilton 
Sharpe, William Edward T. 
Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire^ 
Sidebottom, W^illiam (Derbys. 
Simeon, Sir BarringtoQ 
Sinclair. Capt. J. (Forfarshire 
Sinclair, Louis (Romford) 
Smith, Abel H. (Chri8tchiirch> 
Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand) 
Soames, Arthur Wellesley 
Spencer, Ernest 
Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk) 
Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset) 
Stanley, Sir H. M. (Lambeth) 
Stanley, Lord (Lanes.) 
Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart 
Strachey, Edward 
Tennant, Harold John 
Thornton, Percy M. 
Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray 
Trevelyan, Charles Philips 
Usborne, Thomas 
Valentia, Viscount 
Vincent,Col. Sir C. E. Howard 
Wallace, Robert 
Wanklyn, James Leslie 
Warr, Augustus Frederick 
Webster, Sir Richard E. 
Welby, Lieut.. Col. A. C. E. 
Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon- 
Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd 
Whiteley, George (Stockport) 
Whiteley,H. ( Ashton-under-L* 
Williams, J. Powell-(Birm.) 
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord 
Wilson, Henry J.(York,W.R.) 
Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.) 
Wilson, J. W. ( Worcestersh. ,N. 
Wilson.Todd,Wm.H. (Yorks.) 
Wodehouse, Rt.Hn.E.R.(BatK 
Wolff, Gustav WUhelm 
Woodall, William 
Woodhouse,SirJ T(Hudder8f d 
Woods, Samuel 
Wrightson, Thomas 
Wyndham, George 
Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H. 
Wyvill, Marmaduke d'Arcy 
Younger, William 

Tellers for the Aybe — 
Sir William Walrond and 
Mr. Anstruther. 



Austin, M. (Limerick. W.) 

Birrell, Augustine 

Cameron, Sir Chas. (iilasgow) 

Cameron, Robert (Durham) 

Cawley, Frederick 

Commins, Andrew 

Crilly, Daniel 

Daly, James 

Davitt, Michael 

Dillon, John 

Donelan, Captain A. 

Doogan, P. C. 

Field, Williani (Dublin) 

Gibney, James 

Gilhooly, James 

Hay den, John Patrick 

HeaJy, Thomas J. (Wexford) 



NOES. 

Healy, Timothy M.(N.Louth) 
Jacoby, James Alfred 
Jordan, Jeremiah 
Labouchere, Henry 
Leuty, Thomas Richmond 
Lewis, John Herbert 
Logan, John William 
Lough, Thomas 
Maca leese, Daniel 
MacDonnell,Dr.M.A.(QVs C. 
MacNeill, John Gordon Swift 
M'Ghee, Richard 
M'Laren, Charles Benjamin 
Norton, Capt. Cecil William 
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) 
O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow. W.) 
Pickard, Benjamin 



Pickersgill, Edward Hare 
Pirie, Duncan V. 
Priestley, Bricgs (Yorks.) 
Redmond, Williara (Clare) 
Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion) 
Roberts, John H. (Denbi^^isk) 
Steadman, William Charles 
Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath) 
Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.) 
Tuite, James 
Wedderbum, Sir William 
Weir, James Galloway 
Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) 
Yoxall, Jame#* Henry 
Tellers for the Noes — 

Mr. Thomas Bayleyand Dr. 

Clark. 



I^L Addr^m m A^^smr to {18 Ocrm^Sft 1899} the QumCj^ Speech, 



im 



Onderod, That durkig tdie Auubumn 
Sittings no Motions for leave to bring in 
Bills be given except by a Minister of the 
Crown ; that on every day Government 
business do have precedence, and at the 
conclusion thereof Mr. Speaker do adjourn 
the House without Question put ; and that 
the provisions of Standing Order No. 56 
be extended to all the days of the week. 



ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO HER 
MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH. 

[Second Day's Debate.] 

Order read, for resuming Adjourned 
Debate on Question [17th October], 
** That an humble Address be presented 
to Her Majesty, as followeth : — 

" Most Gracious Sovereign, 

"We, Your Majesty's most dutiful 
and loyal subjects, the Commons of the 
United Kingdom of Great Britain and 
Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg 
leave to offer our humble thanks to Your 
Majesty for the Gracious Speech which 
Your Majesty has addressed to both 
Houses of Parliament." — {Captain Sir 
Alexander Aclaml-Hood,) 

Main Question again proposed. 

♦Mr. stanhope (Burnley) : In the 
debate which took place yesterday on the 
Amendment of my hon. friend the Member 
for East Mayo, a distinct issue was raised. 
He had my entire sympathy in the pro- 
posal he made for the submission of our 
difficulties with the Transvaal Republic 
to arbitration. But there is another 
aspect of the case which seems to me to re- 
quire very special treatment, and that is 
the serious examination of the conduct of 
the negotiations by the Colonial Office, 
and the general course of events in con- 
nection with those negotiations which 
have led to our present hostilities with the 
South African Republic. There is a cer- 
tain class of politicians who say that this 
country being at war it is undesirable to 
raise questions of this character. In the 
first place I may venture to point out that 
there are numerous precedents for rais- 
ing issues of this description after war 
had actually commenced. The last one 
I think was in 1878, when upon the out- 
break of the Afghan War the Liberal 



pwpty took the occasion of the Qiwen's 
Speech, as we are taking it now, for the 
purpose of raising a distinct issue upon 
that war. An Amendment was moved 
in their name by a very respected 
Member of this House, Mr. Whitbread, and 
it received the almost unanimous support 
of the Liberal Party. It is true there is 
some distinction between the Afghan 
War and that in which we are now en- 
gaged. It is true that we began the 
Afghan War, and that in this case 
hostilities have been commenced by the 
invasion of British Colonies by the forces 
of the Transvaal. I am quite willing ta 
admit the difference, but all the same I 
say that, while we must all be willing 
under the circumstances of the case to 
grant those supplies which are necessary 
for the defence of our Colonies, our 
mouths must not be closed upon the 
negotiations which have led up to this 
disastrous position, and resulted in a 
state of warfare between ourselves and 
the Governments of the Transvaal and 
the Orange Free State. Perhaps it may 
be convenient, in order to trace this 
matter to its source, that I should refer, 
first of all, to the year 1886, when the 
discovery of the goldfields imported an 
entirely new element into the affairs of 
the Transvaal and produced that combi- 
nation of circumstances which have led to 
I our present position. But although a 
very nondescript and not altogether 
British community was established at 
Johannesburg, I, for one, entirely ac- 
quiesce in the view that those Uitlanders, 
particularly those of British extraction,, 
have a claim to our protection and our 
assistance ; they have a claim to be sup- 
ported in their desire for greater political 
rights than they at present possess in the 
Transvaal. The only point, and that is 
the grave point which I am to raise, is 
that, admitting, if you like, that those 
political rights ought to have been gained 
for them, we have gone the wrong way 
to work to obtain them, and that in any 
case we ought never to have found our- 
selves in the position of warfare 
in which we find ourselves to - day. 
In 1892 this question was first raised bv 
the representatives of Her Majesty s 
Government, and in 1894 the then 
Colonial Secretary made a suggestion to 
Lord Loch with respect to the franchise,, 
which was not received, it is true, with 
favour by the Government of the Trans-^ 
vaal. ' , . 

Second Day, 



183 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech. 



184 



Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT (Mon- 
mouthshire, W.) : It was not absolutely 
presented to President Kruger. 

*Mr. stanhope : But the demand 
was suggested on behalf of the Colonial 
•Office, and there is no question that, at 
that time, the position of the parties in 
the Transvaal was extremely favourable 
to the gradual acceptance of Liberal 
ideas in the Republic, for President 
Kruger did not then enjoy the uncon- 
tested supremacy which recent events have 
given him. His position was attacked by 
various elements in the Transvaal, and 
nobody who has studied the history of 
this question doubted that if only 
patience, and, above all, if abstention 
from illegal acts had been maintained, we 
should have obtained those concessions 
-for the Uitlander population which we 
•desired, and rightly desired, and none 
of these difficulties would have arisen. 
In 1895 there was a change of 
<T0vernment, and the Unionist party 
came into power. They found them- 
selves in a position of very great diffi- 
"Culty, for they had to provide not only 
ifor their ordinary friends, but also for 
the friends of the accommodating gentle- 
man from Birmingham. The gentleman 
from Birmingham had to be given an 
office in which his talents — which every- 
•body will recognise — would have full dis- 
play ; but, at the same time, it was hoped 
that he would not interfere too much 
with the ordinary course of Conservative 
legislation. They thought if he had a 
little preserve of his own in the Colonies 
he would enjoy himself there, and would 
not be able to find time to inconvenience 
the Conservative Party in their general 
<;ourse of legislation. For a time all went 
well with the Unionist party and with 
the Minister for the Colonies, who showed 
enormous activity, and this was not con- 
tested by his colleagues, who were glad to 
feel that the Colonial Secretary had enough 
to do in his own Department, and con- 
sequently could not interfere with theirs. 
But a moment arrived which disturbed 
the equanimity of the Unionist party. 
The newsiarrived of the Jameson raid — a 
■designedly infamous transaction, which 
was reprobated, but not sufficiently repro- 
bated, by the House of Commons, and 
the authors of which never received, 
as they ought to have received, 
the punishment which they deserved. 
The Committee which sat to investigate 



this matter presented a Report, and some 
of its conclusions gave satisfaction to the 
universal sentiment; but still, in my 
judgment, that Committee did not fulfil 
entirely either their task or the expecta- 
tions which had been formed from the 
position occupied by the members of that 
Committee. At the end of the Session 
of 1897 I had thrown upon me the duty 
of making a motion in this House with 
regard to the Report of the South African 
Committee desiring that we should have 
more light, that they should produce 
more Papers, and that we should go 
really into the whole of these transac- 
tions, and clear the British name and 
credit from the motives which had been 
put upon these acts. The right hon. 
Gentleman the Colonial Secretary spoke 
late in the debate. I had asked him, in 
the course of my remarks, to be good 
enough to produce a certain letter — a 
letter addressed by him to Mr. Hawkes- 
ley, and conveying certain telegrams 
which were never published, but which 
it was very desirable should be published 
at the moment, and I asked him whether 
there was any objection to that letter, 
and the one to which it was a reply, 
being produced. I ask him that ques- 
tion again now. All I can say is 
that he absolutely ignored my former 
question and passed it by. And why 1 
One knows perfectly well why, for it was 
because he could not respond. Will the 
right hon. Gentleman now produce those 
letters 1 Not only was there no response, 
but the right hon. Gentleman seized the 
opportunity offered by the debate on the 
Report of the South African Committee — 
which was charged with the duty of ex- 
amining into a transaction which the 
whole public opinion of the world and 
the British Empire reprobated — the right 
hon. Gentleman got up at the last moment 
in that debate, and from his place in 
Parliament whitewashed the principal in- 
stigator of that Raid, and, in a sense, 
entirely did away with any of the good, 
or any of the advantage which might 
have been derived from the Report of the 
South African Committee. I am not 
going to enter more fully into the parti- 
culars of the exact personal responsibility 
of the right hon. Gentleman in regard to 
the Jameson Raid. But I have received 
to-day a book. I have had nothing what- 
ever to do with the drawing up of that 
book, but I have read it with some in- 
terest. It is called, "Are We in the 



185 Address in Answer to {18 October 1899} the Queen^s Speech. 186^ 



Right 1 An Appeal to Honest Men," by 
Mr. W. T. Stead. [Ministerial laughter.] 
I noticed that tne Leader of the 
House laughed when I read the title 
of the book. I would invite the right 
hon. Gentleman to read the book, and 
he will see in it a series of charges 
made without the smallest circum- 
locution against the Colonial Secretary. 
I neither wish to support them nor 
in any way to deal with them, but I do 
say that the dissemination of a book like 
that containing a series of charges against 
a public man of such a character cannot 
be, in the eyes of the public, passed by in 
silence by the right hon. Gentleman and 
his colleagues, and can only be dealt with 
in a manner which will clear entirely the 
right hon. Gentleman of those charges. 
I desire to pass from that particular 
subject of the responsibility of the right 
hon. Gentleman to the more immediate 
question of the effect of the right hon. 
Gentleman's actions. The effect of the 
right hon. Gentleman's actions was 
necessarily to throw all the progressive 
party in the Transvaal into the arms of 
the reactionary party. I ask any 
Englishman who found himself an in- 
habitant of the Transvaal, and who was a 
witness of all that occurred with regard 
to this matter, whether he would not 
from that moment have said, "Well, I 
have perhaps some mistrust of British 
Gk)vernment, but so long as the British 
Government is in this mattter represented 
by the present Colonial Secretary that 
mistrust will be so profound that I shall 
never be able to come to any reasonable 
settlement." That was the frame of 
mind of the people of the Transvaal, 
as a very natural consequence of the 
Jameson raid, and of the actions of 
the right hon. Gentleman. But I 
am bound to say that at that moment, or 
immediately subsequent to the Jameson 
raid, the right hon. Gentleman used 
language in this House which was satis- 
factory. I remember that, in answer to 
a speech of the right hon. Gentleman the 
Member for Sheffield, he distinctly re- 
pudiated any desire to interfere with the 
internal arrangements of the Transvaal, 
and he said that the suggestion of the 
right hon. Gentleman wouH involve the 
expenditure of £10,000,000, £20,000,000, 
orJ£30,000,000forthesendingoutof alarge 
army for the commission of a crime which 
he thought this country ought not to 
permit. Now what has happened to 



cause the right hon. Gentleman to so 
completely change his views 1 I am 
afraid that it is because the right hon. 
Gentleman has fallen under influences oi 
a different kind to those which animated 
him at that time, because when Mr. 
Cecil Rhodes, the principal instigator of 
this Eaid, went back to South Africa andi 
found that he no longer received the 
support of the majority of the people of 
Cape Colony, when in the general elec- 
tion which ensued his adversaries were 
returned and Mr. Rhodes himself was 
displaced from power, what happened) 
then 1 Whv Mr. Rhodes said to him- 
self, "What we cannot get by fair and 
constitutional means we will get by foul 
and hidden means. We cannot any 
longer do any good by constitutional 
agitation, so we will found an insidious 
league, and we will supply it with money." 
Accordingly, the South African League 
was formed,* and Mr. Rhodes and his 
associates — generally of the German Jew 
extraction — found money in thousands 
for its propaganda. By this league in 
South Africa and here they have poisoned 
the wells of public knowledge. Money 
has been lavished in the London world 
and in the press, and the result has been 
that little by little public opinion has 
been wrought up and inflamed, and now,, 
instead of finding the English people 
dealing with this matter in a truly Eng- 
lish spirit, we are dealing with it in a 
spirit which generations to come will 
condemn, and which I believe within a 
few months of this time the electorate of 
this country will finally and absolutely 
repudiate. I will now deal with the more 
particular transactions in which the right 
hon. Gentleman was engaged shortly after 
what I may call this change of attitude 
consequent upon the entry on the scene 
of Mr. Rhodes and his German Jew 
associates. When these gentlemen 
arrived it was felt that a new departure 
was necessary. Lord Rosmead, who for 
many years had represented this country^ 
with eminent success as Governor of 
the Cape, came home, and the new 
departure took the form of sending out 
a distinguished gentleman. Sir Alfred 
Milner, who was imbued with very dif- 
ferent ideas to those held by Lord 
Rosmead. I have had the honour of Sir 
Alfred Milner's acquaintance, and I may 
say that he has served the State no doubt 
in one particular capacity with very great 
distinction, and I believe that his serWcea 

Second Day^ 



*187 Address in Answei' to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech. 



188 



could be used and utilised in positions of 
that sort with great advantage to the com- 
munity. But nevertheless I believe that 
:Sir Alfred Mihier is utterly wanting in 
those characteristics and qualities which 
are necessary in a successful diplomat 
who has to hold the scales and an even 
balance between two nationalities, and 
endeavour to compose and smooth away 
differences instead of creating them. Sir 
Alfred Milner was sent out to the Cape 
with a distinct bias in favour of what 
you might call racial supremacy, and 
he fomented by his attitude those 
racial differences which are now 
430 unfortunately acute, and which 
may yet lead to a general racial war 
throughout South Africa, and which may 
place the whole of our possessions there 
in considerable jeopardy. I only wish to 
refer to one despatch, and that is the 
despatch of the 4th of May, 1899. 
Honourable Members are iFamiliar with 
the Blue Books presented to the 
House, and, therefore, I do not propose 
to read this despatch, which contains the 
most extravagant suggestions of dis- 
loyalty on the part of the Colonists 
s.nd a large section of the population of 
the Cape, who happened at that time to 
be a majority of the population of the 
Cape, and whose representatives, under 
the leadership of Mr. Schreiner, are at 
the present moment governing the Cape. 
Naturally those suggestions on the part of 
Sir Alfred Milner exasperated the feelings 
of the Dutch throughout Cape Colony, 
and the action of the Government of the 
Cape was in entire opposition to the sug- 
gestions of Sir Alfred Milner. It was at 
Mr. Schreiner's initiation that a very 
large grant was made in aid of our 
Imperial Government, and it received the 
highest encomium on the part of the 
right hon. (jrcntleman's colleague the First 
Lord of the Admiralty, who said that he 
believed in the complete loyalty of the 
Dutch population at the Cape, and was 
immensely gratified to find that they had 
signalised that loyalty by a large grant in 
aid of our fleet, and the granting of facili- 
ties for Imperial purposes in St. Simon's 
Bay. Unfortunately the right hon. 
Gentleman the First Lonl of the Admi- 
ralty was only one member of the Govern- 
ment, and he wns not the one particular 
member of the Government who was 
charged with the conduct of these nego- 
tiations. The conducting of these nego- 
tiations was almost entirelv in the hands of 

Mr, Stanhojc, 



the Colonial Secretary, Sir Alfred Milner, 
and Mr. Conyngham Greene at Pretoria. 
No one can deny who has read these 
Papers that there was a constant differ- 
ence of opinion — small if you like — as to 
what Mr. Conyngham Greene and Sir 
Alfred Milner thought and the views of 
the Colonial Secretary. I am not sur- 
prised, therefore, at the confusion of ideas 
existing in the Transvaal and at the 
declaration made by the Government of 
the Transvaal at Pretoria that they were 
unable to grasp what was the reaiinten^ 
tion of Her Majesty's Government, and 
that when they made one proposal it was 
immediately met by another proposal, 
and that instead of one proposal tending 
to some form of settlement they were 
brushed aside by counter proposals, which 
led them to believe that no settlement 
was desired. I for one have come to the 
absolute conviction that while I entirely 
acquit the Government as a whole of any 
kind of fixed intention with regard to 
these transactions —on the contrary, I 
believe that they were animated by peace- 
ful motives — I say that the right hon. 
Gentlemen the Colonial Secretary and 
Sir Alfred Milner, in conjunction with 
Mr. Rhodes and his associates, have for 
the last two years made up their minds 
that war, and war only, could be the 
termination of this crisis, and they 
have worked with that conviction for the 
last twelve or fourteen months. While 
on the one hand the Colonial Secre- 
tary has been so conducting the 
negotiations that it was almost impossible 
to arrive at a settlement, on the other 
hand Mr. Rhodes and his friends have been 
exciting public opinion all over the world, 
and now the right hon. Gentleman can 
turn to his colTeaffues and say, "You 
cannot help it ; public opinion is all in 
favour of war, and you must follow it, or 
you will be swept out of office." That is 
the position which we have arrived at in 
consequence of the conduct of negotia- 
tions by the right hon. Gentleman, and I 
am justified in calling attention to them 
and asking that the Liberal party in this 
House and outside this House will never 
in any form or shape give their sanction 
or approval to transactions which they 
believe do not redound to the honour of 
this country, and which possibly may 
lead to very serious and terrible compli- 
cations. I desire to make a few remarks 
upon another question, and that is with 
respect to the position which we occupy 



189 Address in Answer to tl8 October 1899} tlie Queen's Simch. 



190 



at this moment with regard to the war. 
Of course, it is true that war is at present 
in progress. Of course, it is equally true 
that we can do nothing except give all 
the money which may be necessary for 
the purpose of prosecuting this war as 
long as it may be necessary to prosecute it. 
But, on the other hand, I for one desire to 
dissociate myself from those who say that 
this war must be pursued to the bitter 
end, and that it must be a war of exter- 
mination, and that it must be a war under 
which the Dutch element must disappear 
from those regions. I say it will be the 
duty of this country — and public opinion 
will demand it — to see that bloodshed is 
arrested at the earliest possible moment, 
■and that these matters in dispute should 
l)e referred at the earliest opportu- 
nity which may occur to some form of 
settlement which, while protecting all the 
legitimate interests of this country, will at 
the same time do justice to what, after all, 
the British people feel, namely, that this 
war, necessary as it is now in consequence 
of having been precipitated, can never be a 
source of credit or pride to them. Here 
we are, a great Empire, engaged in trying 
to ccush out of existence a few thousand 
Dutchmen who are iSghting for their in- 
dependence. Independence to them is 
dearer than life, and I believe that the 
British House of Commons and the electors 
outside will agree with me when I say 
that great as may be — and I trust they 
will be — our military successes, no credit 
■can attach to a war of this kind, but in- 
finite discredit will attach to us in the 
pa^es of history if it is recorded that the 
^ntish Empire by brute force and the 
employment of its immense resources 
•crushed out of existence a nation 
struggling for its independence, for such 
.a crime will make a great l)lot upon the 
last days of the nineteenth century. I 
beg, Sir, to move the Amendment stand- 
ing on the Paper in my name. 

♦Mr. S. T. EVANS (Glamorgan, 
Mid) : In seconding this Amendment, I 
-wish to make my position clear. We may 
have our own opinion as to what has led 
up to this most unfortunate war, but the 
fact is that war does exist between us 
and the two South African Republics, and 
in view of this fact I will put no diffi- 
culties in the way of the Government 
obtaining the necessary supplies to carry 
that war to a speedy and successful issue. 
So far as that is concerned we are all 



willing to close the ranks on this side of 
the House, but while we are willing to 
do that there still remains a duty which 
devolves upon us which is as sacred and 
solemn as any duty which is imposed upon 
a Member of Parliament, and that is to 
protest against what has led up to the war, 
which has been properly described by my 
learned friend behind me as an inglorious 
war which cannot possibly redound to 
the credit of the British Empire. My 
hon. and learned friend has gone ovet* 
the initial stages of this question, 
and I do not propose to travel over 
the same ground again. I propose to call 
the attention of the House more especially 
to what has taken place in the conduct of 
these negotiations since Parliament was 
prorogued in the month of August last. 
Since that time we have had no oppor- 
tunity in the House of Commons of 
placing our views l)efore the country, and 
I think it will be acknowledged that the 
Liberal party have done nothing as a 
whole in the interval which could 
prejudice the fair conduct of the negotia- 
tions by the Government, or which has 
hampered them in any desire they might 
have to bring those negotiations to a 
peaceful solution. I have waded through 
the material which we have got in 
these Blue Books, and without going so 
far as to say that I agree entirely with the 
conclusions to which mv hon. friend 
behind me has come, I am bound to say 
that in the bewilderment created l)v the 
somewhat hysterical and shifting des- 
patches I have found it almost impossible 
to fix definitely the cause of the out- 
break of hostilities in South Africa. It is 
impossible in a debate of this kind to go 
in detail into the question of the grievances 
— the alleged grievances -of the Uit- 
landers, and I am pleased to think that it 
has become unnecessarv to do so, because 
the Government themselves have acknow- 
ledged that whatever those grievances 
were they were grievances which might and 
ought to be settled by a certain extension 
of the franchise. The seven years 
retrospective franchise lias Ijeen described 
by the Colonial Secietary as a fair 
basis of settlement, and therefore it 
is necessary for us now to see whether 
that fair Imsis was allowed fair play or 
not by the right hon. (jentleman and by 
the Government in the negotiations 
which have taken place since Parliament 
was prorogued. With regard to the 
franchise, the state of tilings when Parlia- 

Second Day, 



191 



Address in Answer to {COMMONS} 



the QiieerCs Speech, 192 



ment was sitting was that President 
Kruger was willing to grant and had 
taken steps to grant a seven years 
franchise to the Uitlanders, with an 
inquiry into the efficacy and opera- 
tion of that law. That was the state of 
things when Parliament was pro- 
rogued, and at that time the country 
thought there was nothing existing 
between the two Governments which 
would justify war being embarked upon 
before Parliament was called together. 
Since that time the state of things really 
improved so far as the South African Re- 
public was concerned, for the House will 



Again, on the same page in paragraph 
7 it is stated — 

" The stipulations attached by this Govern- 
ment to that proposal were most reasonable, 
and demand on 'the side of Her Majesty's 
Government no abandonment of existing 
rights, but solely the obtaining of the as- 
surance that Her Majesty's Government 
would in future as regarcis this Republio 
simply abide by the Convention of London, 
1884, and the generally recognised rules of 
international law." 

Was there any difficulty at all in the way 
of this Government or any Government, 
which had the conduct of these negotia- 
tions, saying readily to the South African 



remember — and the country will not i Republic, "We never have claimed any 



forget — that by the despatches of the 
19th and 21st of August last, President 
Kruger, in view of certain representations 



further rights than the rights we have 
under the Convention of 1884 and by inter- 
national law " ? The second condition was 



which were believed to have been made that this Government was not to insist fur- 



to the State Secretary by Mr. Conyngham 
Greene, offered a five years franchise to 



ther on the assertion of the existence of 
suzerainty. The hon. and gallant Member 



operate retrospectively, and a still further for North Armagh stated last evening 
extension of representation to the Rand that whatever might be said about the 
district, and he merely coupled the offer ' grievances of the Uitlanders the suzer- 
which he then made with certain j ainty question was the foundation of the 
conditions which I venture to say the , trouble in South Africa. I am not going 
Government ought to have accepted, into the question of the suzerainty in 
That has really been the turning-point of detail, but I wish to point out that that 
these negotiations. The conditions were ' right, which has been asserted so often 
these — first, that this Government should and with so much irritation by the right 
not interfere in the internal affairs of the hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary, 
South African Republic any further, is said to be based on the preamble of the 
That, baldly stated, might appear to be ' Convention of 1881. What is the South 
a condition which many hon. Members African Republic to think of negotiations 
might think the Government had no right carried on in the spirit in which they 
to concede, but it is perfectly clear from have been carried on by the right hon. 
the Blue Book that the interference Gentleman the Colonial Secretary, who, 
thereby conditioned by the South African on various occasions, has said things abso- 
Republic did not take away from our lutely inconsistent with and contradictory 
Government in the slightest degi-ee any i of each other ? When the right hon. 
rights we possess under the Convention Gentleman wanted something from Presi- 
of 1884, or any rights vested in us as a dent Kruger there was no reference at 
Power whose own subjects and citizens all to the CoMvention of 1881. After 
were resident in another State, because that most unfortunate Raid the Colonial 
hon. Members will find on page 53 of the | Secretary desired — as we all did— that 
September Blue Book that the South the Government of the South African 
African Republic says — Republic should display magnanimity in 

,,T^ . . i.1 T r XI I- tlie treatment of the prisoners who were 

" Passmi' now to the discussion of the obser- ' . . j i^ r ^i. t> -j mi. 

vations of Her Maiesty's Government on the , ^^ ^'^^stody as a result of the Raid Then 
conditions attached by this Government to the the position of the right hon. Gentle- 




the question of intervention this Government yo^r magnanimity and honour, and you may 
has neither asked nor intended that Her rest confident that I will strictly uphold all 
Majesty's Government should abandon any , the obligations of the London (Convention of 
right which it really mi j]jht have on the ground | 1884." 

either of tlie Convention of London, 1884, or ; mr ^' ^i * , 

of international law to intervene for the pro- 1 here was no suggestion then of the 
tection of British subjects in this country. 

Mr. S. T. Evans. 



r.'^ existence of the Convention of 1831, and 



193 Address in Answer io {18 October 1899} tlie Queen's Speech 194 



no argument was then founded or any ■ 
right claimed on the dead preamble of ; 
that Convention. I cannot understand, | 
after the discussions which have taken i 
place in the country and in the I 
press by those qualified to speak, after 
the admirable speech of the right hoii. | 
Gentleman the Member for West Mon- 
mouthshire — a speech which in my humble 
judgment it is impossible to answer — i 
and after the equally cogent speech of the 
hon. and learned Member for Plymouth, ' 
to which I am pleased to hear he adheres 

1 T 1 ' 

at the present moment, 1 cannot under- i 
stand how it can be argued that the Con- 
vention of 1881 is not dead. And yet 
even some Liberals have argued it. The 
hon. and learned Member for South Leeds 
and the hon and learned Member for 
Bfawidingtonshire have argued upon the 
construction of the two Conventions 
without reference to external circum- 
stances or documents that the pre- 
amble of the Convention of 1881 is 
still alive, as if Conventions between 
States on public matters were to be 
construed by narrow rules of our municipal 
law, as laid down in musty reports in the 
Temple or in Lincoln's Inn. It appears 
to me impossible to argue with any 
foundation of reason or logic accord- 
ing to the proper principles to be applied 
to the construction of international agree- 
ments that the Convention of 1881 is in 
any degree or sense alive. But what is 
the use, after all, of using the term 
" suzerainty " when it is known that it 
irritated the South African Republic? 
Assuming for a moment, for the sake of 
argument, that we have suzerainty, is it 
alleged that we have by the right of 
suzerainty any rights at all other than 
those under the Convention of 1884 ? If 
not, then the South African Kepublic 
said, " We are willing to abide, and we 
ask you to abide by the Convention of 
1884." Therefore it appears to me in re- 
gard to the second condition which was 
attached by the South African Republic 
to its offer of a five years retrospec- 
tive franchise that there ought not to 
have been any difficulty at all in 
the way of the Government meeting the 
Government of the Republic on that 
head. It was still more desirable that 
this should be done in order to quell the 
suspicion which might exist — and 
who can blame the South African Re- 
public for entertaining the suspicion ? — 
that this country had designs on 

VOL. LXXVII. [Fourth Series.] 



its independence. After what hap- 
pened in connection with the Raid 
and the circumstances of that 
Raid, it was still more incumbent 
on the Government of this country to 
have readily acknowledged to the South 
African Republic that they did not claim 
any rights other than the rights under 
the Convention of 1884, and those vested 
in them with regard to our subjects by 
international law, and to admit that they 
did not desire otherwise to assert any 
question of suzerainty. The third con- 
dition was as to arbitration. So far as I 
can see, there was no difficulty in coming^ 
to an agreement as to the arbitration 
clauses. It was suggested by the Colonial 
Secretary — who apparently was most 
fruitful in all kinds of suggestions ta 
create all kinds of difficulties which did 
not appear in the despatches on the other 
side — that arbitration meant foreign 
arbitration, and he said " I will not allow 
foreign arbitration." But the Transvaal 
Government replied, " No, we do not 
' want foreign arbitrators at all." What 
should have been the answer of Great 
Britain, who has had recourse to arbitra- 
tion when she had to face powerful 
nations like America ? That was the 
state of things on 21st August. The 
Colonial Secretary sent his reply to 
that offer of the South African 
Republic, which was better than the 
minimum off*er of Sir Alfred Milner 
at the Bloemfontein Conference. The 
reply of the Colonial Secretary, translated 
into plain language, was : " We can have 
nothing to do with your conditions," 
and I am not sure that it would 
not have been more creditable to have 
put it in that language than in the 
form in which it appeared in the des- 
patch. If the Government thought 
that a settlement could be arrived at by 
acknowledging these conditions of the 
South African Republic was it not 
absolutely incumbent on them in the 
interests of this country and the British 
Empire to assent to those conditions, 
and to put an end to the difficulty, more 
particularly as it appeared — though 
there may have been a misunderstanding 
— that the State Secretary understood 
from Mr. Greene, the British Agent,, 
when he suggested these terms, that 
there was more than a hope that 
they would be accepted? They were 
not accepted. Then, although it was 
agreed that the putting forward of these 

G Second Day, 



195 A(l(lre.<s in Answer to {COMMONS} (lie Queen's Speech. 196 



terms should not be regarded as a refusal 
altogether of the British demand, the 
Colonial Secretary said, " We cannot 
allow you to go back at all — not even to 
the seven years franchise proposal." 
In the Blue Book which was issued yester- 
day it is perfectly clear that it was open 
to the Transvaal Government without a 
breach of faith, and without doing any- 
thing which was not within their rights, 



negotiations that he intended them to 
end in a resort to force. I will not say 
that, but I cannot help saying that the 
method adopted in the negotiations 
tended directly to that most deplorable 
result. Then it was suggested that 
President Steyn was in a sort of con- 
spiracy with the South African Republic 
to have a republic all over South Africa, 
including Cape Colony and Natal Was ever 



to resume the prior negotiations with such rubbish spoken of two small States ? 

regard to the seven years franchise and Can anyone imagine that President 

the commission of inquiry. The Blue Steyn, who had no direct quarrel with us, 

Book issued yesterday contains a despatch but merely treaty obligations with Presi- 

from Sir Alfred Milner, in which, on page dent Kruger, was insane enough to desire 

67, it is stated — to rush his country into war with a vast 

.. .^ . ^. ... T- i. X J and important Empire like the British 

" After communication with you I instructed -ni • li t^. ^i. i. ti -j j. csj. 

Mr. Greene on August 17th to mform the Empire? It appears that President bteyn 

Government of the South African Republic as was anxious to bring about a peaceful 

follows : — * If the Government of tne South solution even after the despatch of Sep- 

African Republic were to reply to the mvita- tember 22, and in the Blue Book iust 

tion of Her Majesty s Government to a Jomt • j i.u • ^ j* -i x 

Inquiry by formally putting forward proposals jssued there is an extraordmanly strone 

aeacribed in your telegram, Her Majesty's "ght thrown upon the view of Su* Alfred 

Government would not regard such a course as Milner himself as to what the 

a refasal of their offer but would be prej^red right hon. Gentleman the Colonial 

to consider the reply of the Government of the q^ . -xjjx j^u jx 

South African Republic on its merits.' " Secretary intended towards the end of 

September. It will be seen that while 

That shows that it was absolutely open these negotiations were going on between 

to the South African Republic, without Sir Alfred Milner and President Steyn, 

any charge of unfairness, to go back to the Colonial Secretary, in a despatch 

the franchise proposal and the commission dated September 29th to Sir Alfred 

of inquiry. " No," says the Colonial Secre- Milner, directed him in these terms to 

tary, having screwed President Kruger up send a telegram to President Steyn— 
to the five years franchise, ** we will not 

allow you to go back at all." In this state p " T?^ 7^}\^^ ^^® iT"" c.^^^^^.w ""T }u^ 
£ ir ' Qi. 1 oojxuj President of Orange Free State that what he 
of aifau-s on September 22nd the door was describes as the enormous and ever-increaslDg 
absolutely closed, I venture to think, to military preparations of Great Britain have 
any further negotiations. No further been forced upon Her Maiesty's Government 
discussion was invited, no further answer by the policy of the South African BepubUc, 
,1 ..i: 1 J r which has transformed the Transvaal into a 
apparently ^yas either asked for or permanent armed camp, threatening the peace 
expected. The further proposed demands of the whole of South Africa and Uie position 
which were promised in the despatch of of Great Britain as the Paramount State." 
September 22nd were not sent, they have ,,7. ^ .1 ^ ^1. i-, , 
not been sent to this day, and so far as we Was not that something like a de- 
know, have not vet ))een drawn up, and I ''^t^^^"'%''^ /''tl! ^* J*'f •.*^° "P""**" 
respectfully suggest to the House that «f ^'^ ^^^""^^^ 'l^'l''^'' 'i'f * >*i T^'S, ^°^ 
even now we have a right to ask the mount to that, because the High Commia- 
Goveriimcnt how far they have gone in sioner telegraphed to the Colonid Secre- 
drawing up these proposals, ff they **'"y '^** ^^ *"**! T^'"""^ undertaken the 
were intendedtobetemJ>;^ how far have responsibility of keeping back the tele- 
they been formulated? So far aa we g"^™' He cabled as foUows- 
can see from the Blue Books there is not •• i propose to hold over message in yoar 
even a suggestion that they have been telegram of September aotli. My natoa for 
begun by the right hon. Gentleman, the ^'"'"K *«> « *•!*'. *'^J^ »" «'^'" some heritatum 
Cotonial Secretary No, Sir, apparently ^elC whr^r„otTLt*aS.Sa 
on September 22n(l Her Majesty s hope of compromise." 
Government, through its Colonial Secre- 
tary in particular, was determined that Did not that say in plain terms that in 
war was inevitable. I am loath to say Sir Alfred Milner's opinion, at anv rate, 
of any Minister that he so conducted the despatch he was instructed by the 

Mr, S. T, Evans. 



197 Address in Answer to {18 October 1899} the Quetn'n Sp'o-h. 198 



Colonial Secretary to send to President 
Steyn would bring things to a head, 
and would leave no further hope 
of comproniise at all 1 Several days later 
Sir Aln-ed Milner sent another despatch 
to the Colonial Secretary, stating thab the 
President of the Orange Free State com- 
plained that he had not received a reply, 
and adding— 

" I kept back, as you are aware, your tele- 
gram of the 29th September. We ought, how- 
ever, in my opinion, to answer liim now.*' 

That plainly shows that on the 29th 
September Her Majesty's Government 
was determined that there should 
l^e war with the South African Re- 
public. Even after that date, the South 



in the matter. This country has not 
forgotten, and I am sure the South African 
Republic has not forgotten, the part which 
the right hon. Gentleman took in connec- 
tion with that inglorious raid in 1895. 
Those telegrams which were suppressed 
have still to be disclosed. An explana- 
tion has yet to be given of the con- 
duct of the Colonial Secretary in voting 
for the condemnation of Mr. Rhodes, 
wholesale and complete, upstairs, and on 
the same day in this House, whitewashing 
him, and saying that although he was 
guilty of treason and lyin^, and of keep- 
ing back information from his own Minis- 
ters, he had done n 'thing which was in 
the slightest degree a reflection on his 
personal honour. Those letters and tele- 
African Republic apparently awaited , grams may some day be disclosed, but 
some communication from the Govern- 1 until they are disclosed how can we l)lame 



ment as promised in the despatch of 
22nd September. No communication 
came, and at last the fatal step, which I 



the South African Republic if they had 
the suspicion in the course of the nego- 
tiations that it was all along intended to 



will not attempt to justify, was taken on ' destroy their independence, though 
the 9th October. I should think that I the attempt in 1895 had failed? 
the feeling which hon. Members had | Having regard to the position of the 
when they read the ultimatum despatched right hon. Gentleman, it is deplorable 
by President Kruger eighteen days after that it should have fallen to his lot — 
the last communication from our Govern- 1 whether rightly or wrongly — to carry on 
anent was a feeling of infinite pity that he | and deal with the negotiations between this 
had been driven to do anything so j country and the South African Republic. 
mad. To feel pity was more natural i Under these circumstances I submit that 



than to fix blame under all the circum 
stances. What the Government said to 
this small State of 30,000 burghers was. 



while we on this side of the House were 
very careful not to place any difficulties 
in the way of the Government while the 



<i 



Our negotiations are over, and we will ; negotiations were still open, and are now 



take no further steps to meet you at all. 
But we will continue to land our forces 
and to mobilise our army corps; we 



willing and ready to give the Govern- 
ment the necessary means to carry on the 
war which unfortunately has been brought 



will call out our reserves, and we hope \ about, we are nevertheless entitled, and 
sincerely that you, a small State, will , bound, at this sUxge of the proceedings. 



oblige the great British Government by 
waiting until we are ready to invade your 
territory." Nothing that I have said will, 
I hope, be regarded as justifying — nothing 
I ever shall say will justify — President 
Kruger. for issuing that ultimatum. 



to protest that war ought never to have 
taken place. Can any hon. Member — 
can the Colonial Secretary himself — say 
now what was the cause of the war ? One 
answer is easy, viz., that the ultimatum 
was the cause. Hut that only shifts it 



One has a strong opinion that probably i back further. What was the cause of 
be was unable to keep the young , the ultimatum ? In this House we do 
Boers back, but that ultimatum un- not hear much of Majulu, but we 
<ioubtedly called this country to go to war. hear of it in the country. I should 
But that does not justify the negotiations think there is not a genuine Liberal 
which led to the war and which rendered in this House or in the country who did 
it inevitable. It was all the more impor- not l^lush when he read a certain letter 
tant that the negotiations between our from a nobleman who at one tim? led the 
Oovemment and the South African Re- Liberal Party, and who, I suppose, as- 
public should be carried out \vith the pires to lead it again. He was a member 
utmost care and caution, and without any , of the Government of 1881, which was 
irritation, having regard to the position responsil)le forthemagnanimoustreatment 
ivhich the Colemal Secretary himself held . of the Boers after Majuba Hill. Every 

G 2 Second Day, 




203 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech, 204- 

nation of the courts of law to the Exe- the mining industry, the Boers were 

cutive, a corrupt and brutal police. unable to secure expert advice except 

from this country. I will read what he 

Mr. swift MacNEILL (Donegal, S.): says. 

We have that in Ireland. 

Mr. swift MacNEILL : What is his 

*Mr. WANKLYN : And the restric- ^^me ? 

tion of freedom of speech and the ^^^^ WANKLYN : It is Mr. Edgar 

freedom of the press. There was ^^^hbone, and he is a nephew of the lite 

a time when the whole Liberal Mr. Willikm Rathbone, for twenty years 

party ^yould have fought or those liberal M.P. for Liverpool. He is 

four issues, and 1, sitting on. .,. tt ^j ^v« «„-n 

.1 . .J r II TT 1 f m this House to-day, and he will 

this side of the House as a member of , , . j t 

., T -1 1 TT • • 4. <.„ ^ be here to-morrow, and I am sure 

the Liberal Unionist party, am prepared j^ ^^jjj ^ delighted to give hon. 

still to hffht for them. I am only sorry a/t i. • x x- • f • 

,1 . , 1 ° 1 1 T 1 1 ^ 1 Members any information m his posses- 

that the old Liberal party ha^ so . ^ J. . ^ ^^^ ^^ ^ 

degenerated that it is no longer pre- .i j .. i o xj j r 

pared to fight for them. Hon. Members **^« dynamite monopoly ? He declares- 

opposite seem to challenge that statement. " On several occasions I was obliged to 

Let me ask them, what did the Leader of receive dynamite which I considered to be in 

the Liberal Separatist party say 
House on the 28th of July last 1 
of the right hon. Gentleman wo all respect but- 
as the Leader of the Opposition. He 
declared that, from beginning to end of *Mr. SPEAKEK : I must remind the 
the negotiations, he could see nothing hon. Gentleman that the question before 
whatever which would justify war. Does the House is the disapproval of the con- 
that not strengthen my observation on duct of the negotiations with the Trans- 
this question of grievances ? [An HON. vaal Government. Although that gives a 
Member : Rot !] I am sorry to hear an certain amount of scope to discuss the 
hon. Member describe as " Rot " conduct of the Transvaal Government^ 
grievances which are admitted, and on the hon. Gentleman is going rather too far^ 
account of which our forefathei*s fought. 

You wish to howl me down, but you *Mr. WANKLYN: Of course, I bow 

will not succeed in doing it. I will to your ruling. Sir. I was going to point 

now pass to some concrete cases of out that hon. Members opposite attribute 

corruption which I have taken the trouble this war to want of diplomacy on the part 

to verify. President Kruger has l)een of Her Maiesty's Government, whereas I 

represented to us as a pious, poor, claim that it is due to a lack of recog- 

upright person. As regards his piety, nition on the part of Members opposite 

it is not for me to question that ; of the existence of grievance and corrup- 

God alone is his Judge ; but as re- tion. 
gards his poverty, let me sa}' he is 

not a poor man. He is rich beyond the *Mr. SPEAKER : Yes, but that is not 

dreams of avarice. As to corruption, the question. No doubt the Amendment 

have we not proof of it in the very fact raises the point of the diplomacy of the 

that the house in which he lives was pre- Government, but the hon. Member is 

sented to him by an individual to whom going beyond that, 
he gave a concession for the sale of 

liquor 1 Even the Staats Secretary *Mr. WANKLYN : I repeat. Sir, I 



admits that the liquor monopolists have 
brought wealth to President Kruger 
and his family. I will now pass to the 
dynamite monopoly. I have with me here 
a statement signed by a gentleman who 
was, for two years, Chief Inspector of 



bow, of course, to your ruling. No 
doubt it will be a relief to hon. Gen- 
tlemen opposite that I am not allowed to 
read the affidavit I hold in my hands. 
Mr. Rathbone tells me that ho would not 
have given this evidence had it not been 



Mines under President Kruger. He was for the declaration of war, but he now 
the only Englishman e^ er in the service j feels it his duty to speak, and in this, 
of the Transvaal, and he was simply affidavit he instances cases of cornip- 
employed because, in the early days of ; tion 

Mr. JTanklyv, 



^01 Address in Answei' to {18 October 1899} tlieQufeiCaSpfech, 202 



Emperor, he is possessed of a very active 
mind, and we know that he has spent his 
"money for the expansion of England, and 
we on this side who do not fear the 
expansion of England, who are not 
cursed with " the craven fear of 
being great," have much sympathy and 
admiration for Mr. Rhodes. The great 
object of his life is to found a great 
<5olony in the same way as Penn 
founded Pennsylvania. If to desire 
honour is to sin, then Cecil Rhodes has 
'Crred greatly, but I suggest that he has 
desired honour, not on his own account, 
but for the sake of his country, and he is 
therefore deserving of our sympathy. I 
am surprised that the mover of the 
Amendment should have used the lan- 
jguage he did in regard to both Mr. 
Khodes and the Colonial Secretary. Does 
the hon. Gentleman really think that 
these men, and those who act with them, 
have had a desire to foment war and 
bring about the destruction of the lives of 
thousands of their countrymen? If he 
entertains that view, and if it be shared 
by other hon. Gentlemen opposite, 
I am indeed sorry for them. For myself 
I can only say that, while I do not pre- 
sume to know anything about the private 
life of the right hon. Gentleman the 
Member for West Birmingham, I can 
point to his public record in refutation of 
the charge. We know, too, that the 
occupations of his leisure time prove him 
to be a man of humane instincts, and I 
therefore decline to believe in the charge 
made against a fellow-countryman occupy- 
ing so eminent a position. As to Cecil 
Khodes, we know that his whole attitude 
towards the black populations of South 
Africa has conclusively proved him to be 
a humane man. He has, too, always 
shown the utmost consideration for those 
of his fellow-countrymen who are less 
well able to take care of themselves. He 
Btands in loco parentis towards the 
blacks, and I will not accept the 
view — indeed, I refute it on be- 
lialf of Members on this side — that 
there has been any desire on the part of 
either of these two gentlemen to foment 
war. It has been suggested by the hon. 
Member for Burnley that the South 
African League, which has put so much 
valuable information before the public, is 
a League subsidised by capitalists for 
their own ends and for their own pur- 
poses. The hon. Member has been mis- 
informed. The books of the League are 



open, I believe, to the inspection of hon. 
Gentlemen opposite. It is purely a poor 
man's league ; it was formed after the 
Raid ; and employees of capitalists have 
been dismissed from their situations for be- 
coming mem])ers of it. That is a fact 
vouched for by Sir Alfred Milner, and I 
do not think that any hon. Member oppo- 
site will contest it. (Cries of " Butler, 
Butler.") 

*Mr. STANHOPE: It would have been 
a great advantage if the hon. Gentleman 
had also stated the view of the League 
entertained by Sir William Butler while 
in command at the Cape. 

*Mr. WANKLYN : I am not concerned 
with Sir William Butler, except that I 
regret he has been kicked upstairs instead 
of being kicked downstairs. [Cries of 
" Oh, oh ! "] I am sorry I am being in- 
terrupted from the Irish benches. 

Mr. DILLON (Mayo, E.) : You have 
uttered a gross insult. 

*Mr. WANKLYN : Until I was 
rudely interrupted I was simply making 
a statement of facts, and I am pointing 
out that capitalist companies have dis- 
missed persons in their employment 
for joining this League. From that 
statement hon. Members opposite can 
draw their own conclusions. How can 
it be suggested that the capitalists want 
war ? Their mines will ])e damaged by 
water — they may, indeed, be damaged by 
dynamite — and they certainly have lost 
and will lose much by the stoppage of 
labour. I saw it stated in the Leeds Mer- 
cury that the capitalists wanted war in 
order that they might buy mining shares 
cheap. That suggestion was made two or 
three weeks ago. I have since then taken 
thfc trouble to follow the price of shares, 
and I have noticed that in the case of one 
large company the values went up at the 
first sound of war. The suggestion, 
therefore, does not hold water. If the 
causes which are assigned by hon. gen- 
tlemen opposite are not those which led 
to the war then we are face to face >vith the 
question, what was it that did lead to the 
war 1 I can give the causes in a very few 
sentences. They are grievances coupled 
with corruption and the want of recog- 
nition of those grievances and that cor- 
ruption. The grievances are, taxation 
without representation, and the subordi- 

Second Day. 



207 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the QiweiCs Speech. 



208 



couched in terms of the greatest insolence. 
It informed the Government that trouble 
might be avoided by Her Majesty send- 
ing out orders to withdraw troops from 
her own possessions, and recall troops 
on the high seas, and no Government 
which had ever held office in this country 
could have done otherwise than accept 
the challenge which was thrown down by 
the Boers. But that was not the whole 
case. He had been for some time anxious 
that Her Majesty's Government should 
act with extreme caution and care, not 
merely for the sake of the Boers, for 
whom he thought it was not unworthy 
to have some regard, but for the sake of 
our own interests and of the terrible con- 
sequences which must ensue to the 
British power in South Africa from the 
course adopted. It had been said that 
the Government had put their hand to 
the plough, and they would not cease 
until they had done their work. But 
what was their work ? It was surely to 
unite under a system of free institu- 
tions the European races in South Africa. 
He dissociated himself entirely from the 
line taken by his hon. friend the Member 
for Burnley. The hon. Member seemed 
to accuse the right hon. Gentleman the 
Colonial Secretary and Sir Alfred Milner 
of having practically conspired together 
for two years or more to bring about war. 
That was a most preposterous accusation. 
But while Her Majesty's Government had 
been clear and honest in their desire to 
repudiate annexation, there had been a 
party, and there was now a powerful 
party, in South Africa which had made 
110 concealment of its aim, and that aim 
was the virtual subjection of the South 
African Republic. He referred to the 
South African League. The lines adopted 
by Sir Alfred Milner at the Bloemfontein 
'Conference were wise and right lines, and 
he could not help feeling last night, when 
the right hon. Baronet the Member for 
the Jorest of Dean somewhat warmly 
attacked the policy of Sir Alfred Milner, 
that the right hon. Gentleman did not 
suggest any alternative. It was generally 
;admitted that the state of things existing 
in the Transvaal w«as such that it was not 
right, desirable, or even possible that Her 
Majesty's Government should allow it to 
continue indefinitely. But while Sir 
Alfred Milner was putting forward his 
policy at the Conference, and ever since, 
there had been another policy in South 
Africa, that of the South African League 

Mr. Elliot. 



— a policy inconsistent with the policy of 
Her Majesty's Government. The sup- 
porters of the League and the Uitlanders 
were mainly responsible for the line taken 
by Sir Alfred Milner not being accepted. 
He regretted that a policy such as that of 
the South African League, so opposed to 
the policy of the Government, was not 
promptly repudiated by Ministers. It 
was that policy which was responsible 
for the present state of affairs and 
for the fact that the line taken by 
Sir Alfred Milner had not been ac- 
cepted. He was aware that the Duke 
of Devonshire set forth that it was 
the desire of the Cabinet to respect the 
independence of the South African Re- 
public. He believed Her Majesty's 
Government were sincere in supporting 
that independence, but part of our great 
diplomatic object was to force that view 
down the throats of the Boers in spite of 
suspicious acts. 

*Mr. WANKLYN : The hon. Member, 
I fear, is under the misapprehension that 
the South African League and the South 
African Association are one body. They 
are two distinct bodies. The South 
African Association is supported by 
Peers knd Members of this House, while 
the South African League is a purely 
working man's body. 

Mr. ELLIOT said the distinction was 
immaterial to him : he had no interest 
one way or the other. His point was 
that an important body in South Africa 
put forward terms opposed to the policy of 
Her Majesty's Government, and he for 
his part regretted that, as a matter of 
diplomacy, it had not been found 
possible to thoroughly reprobate and 
repudiate terms which were not 
only inconsistent with the policy of Her 
Majesty's Government, but with pledees 
I we had given. Another matter which 
I distressed him in connection with the war 
i was the appearance of almost entire agree- 
I ment a few weeks ago. It was, compara- 
I tively speaking, only a few days since 
that they were buoyed up with the hope 
that terms were being oft'ered by which 
' our subjects in the South African Repub- 
lic would have the franchise. This would 
have given them enormous power, and in 
five or six years they could have constitu- 
i tionally won substantially everything 
desired. Let no one suppose he was a 



:209 Address m Anmn to {18 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 210 



.pro-Boer, but he had hoped that, by 
patience on both sides, the matters in dis- 
pute might have been brought to an 
amicable issue. Surely it was worth while 

-exercising patience to avoid the terrible 

• arbitrament of war. He knew that the 
Boer Gk)vernment was a bad Government, 
unfit to govern an advancing and growing 

•<»ommunity such as that which had 
gathered in the Transvaal. But what, 

-after all, was the question before 
them ? To his mii)d it was nothing 
less than the destinies of South 
Africa. Whether or not the whole 

-of South Africa would become a 
permanent part of the British Empire it 
"was not for statesmen to decide. Facts 
would determine the point, but he had 
hoped that this would have been done 
without war. Of course our arms would 
be successful. His confidence was so 
^eat in the British troops that he could 
leave it almost completely to those who 
were there for the moment to defeat 
" hip and thigh " every Dutch farmer in 
the colony. But this war was a detest- 
able and hateful war. Nevertheless it 
was upon us, and the Government had 

-done what almost every Government 
would have done — accepted the challenge 
cast down. Those who now talked 
about arbitration talked nonsense. We 
must assert ourselves. Moreover, 
if the Government asked for twenty 
millions instead of ten millions to carry 
on the war he would vote for it. But 
what he had deprecated all through was 

.a tone of excessive heat and temper. 
Let us carry through the war effectively, 
but not, as some ill-advised friends of the 
Government wished, by trying to 
blacken the character of our foes. The 
matter was now out of the hands of the 
Colonial Secretary ; it was in those of the 
War Office, and he felt quite comfort- 
able in their hands. But the time would 
come for statesmen to exercise their 
highest talent in building up a great self- 
governing community in South Africa. 

Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: I am 

^ure the House will have listened with 

the attention it deserves to the thoughtful 

^nd statesmanlike speech just made by 

the hon. Member for Durham. I do not 

propose to occupy the time of the House 

this afternoon with matters which have 

been sufficiently dealt with, and, above 

-all, I need not repeat what has been said 

in such admirable and eloquent terms by 



my right hon. friend the Leader of the 
Opposition as to the immediate duty of 
both sides of the House >vith respect to 
the war which is at present going on in 
South Africa. The duty, of course, of 
this House is to support the Executive 
Government in maintaining the integrity 
of the dominions of the Queen. It is a 
plain and clear duty, and will be dis- 
charged equally by this side as by that, 
and, therefore, I need say no more on 
that subject. The right hon. Gentleman 
the Leader of the House, with gentle 
humour, bantered my right hon. friend 
upon speaking with two voices. But it 
is inevitable on this subject that men 
must speak with two voices, because 
they are dealing with two separate 
and distinct matters. In one voice 
we speak in support of the Execu- 
tive Government and in defence of the 
Empire and dominions of the Queen ; but 
when we come to speak of the policy of 
Her Majesty's Government, which I will 
not say for a moment has been the cause 
of this war, but which, at all events, 
has resulted in war, we have a right 
to speak, and must speak, in a 
different voice altogether ; that is in- 
volved in the very nature of the case. 
I know it is a vulgar notion stated 
outside this House that, war having once 
broken out, we have nothing to do but to 
hold our peace and give sanction to the 
policy that led to war. That, I am sure, 
is not a doctrine that will be held by a 
responsible Minister of the Crown. The 
right hon. Gentleman opposite did not 
take that objection the other night, and I 
am sure will not do so now. It is hardly 
necessary, perhaps, to refer to the 
authority of precedents upon that point, 
but, as the language is most explicit and 
most sound, I may be allowed to quote a 
sentence or two from a speech delivered 
by Lord Hartington in 1878, when, in the 
midst of the Afghan War, he supported — 
in fact, authorised — a vote of censure on 
the policy of the Government which led 
to that war. I know the just authority 
attributed in this country to the opinions 
of the Duke of Devonshire, and I may be 
excused if I read a few sentences from 
what he said on that occasion. I do not 
address these to Members in the House, 
who know what are the rights and duties 
of the House of Commons in a matter of 
this kind, but it is right that it should be 
known throughout the country that the 
conduct of an Opposition in criticising 

Second Day, 



211 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech, 212 

and, if necessary, condemning the policy salient circumstances — not in small details, 

of a Government which resulted in war is but in the character of the whole transac- 

not unpatriotic. This is what the Duke tions — which, in our opinion at least, have 

of Devonshire siiid on the occasion I have not tended to a peaceable solution, though 

referred to — I am not charging it against the Grovern- 

ment — I desire to say I make no such. 

" I trust we shall not be told that, now war charge— that their object was to avoid a 

has hroken out, it is mere waste of time togo ^11 i- ti i. r 

back to the origin of the war, and that a peaceable solution. I make no charge of 

patriotic Parliament has hut one duty to per- that kind at all. Meeting here in October^ 
form, viz., to ignore the pa.st and simply to we, as the Leader of the Opposition has 
support the Government which lias undertalcen g^id, are entitled to take up the case as it 
the war. It it wa.** nece8.sary to refer to pre- ye.- t i 1. r ti i- ^ 

cedents I could ,)oint to the conduct pursued was left in July before Parhament was 
by the Opposition at the close of the last and j prorogued. Then, as the Leader of the 
lieginning of the present centurj- in reference House hjis said, expectations were enter- 
to the ^^^r with the Ameri^n colonies and the ^,j^^ l3^, the Government, and hopes 
Kevolutionary wars with France. In respect = .i-, i.^-.i.tr jiL 

to the first case I think, at all events, there ^^^^ held out to the House and the 
is no doubt the Opposition took a wise and country, that we were on the eve of a 
patriotic course in opi)osing and continuing to satisfactorv and pcacea])le solution. Since 
oppose the (;overnment throughout that war." | ^^jj^t time a few short months have 

: elapsed, and we find ourselves em- 
Then he refers to other cases, to the case barked upon war, and we have a right to 
of 1857, when Lord Derby, as head of the ask what are the circumstances which 
Conservative piiity, carried a vote of , have so changed the situation since last 
censure against Lord Palmerston in the Julv that all the hopes of peace you held 
midst of the China war, and then he forth have l>een disappointed, and we find 
^^^^ — ourselves actually embarked upon this 

disiustrous, calamitous war. Let me take 

hich we are all 

cuiiiiTniited^n warwiThout thJ"knowV«1g^**^ agreed. We are agreed that it was right 
Parliament it would be strange if that fact on the part of the Government to press 
should al»solve the House from the duty for reforms in the administration of 
o^cnticwng the conduct of the Oovernment . j^ffai,^ j,^ ^^e South African RepubUe ; 

I Uunk, mdeed, the verv fact of war having ^1 ^ • ^^ ^ 11 V 1 

broken out would only* make the conduct of that is a matter common to usalL 1 know 
the (Jovennnent more open to criticism." no one who denies that. You did press, and 

you rightly pressed, for reforms, but the 
These are the sound constitutional Leader of the House last night used 
principles^ which have go venied and ought a phrase— he is not in the halnt of 
to govern the conduct of an Opposition, using unnecessarily violent phrases, we 
SuppoitiiigiheCnivernment intheciirrving all acknowledge — but he astonished uia 



" It L.iu.portant I think Jntl|e situation^ i,,^ upon whi< 

which we at present stand. If this policy had _, \yr *■ , , 

iliiiinated in war without the knowledge of agreed. >> e are agreed til 




mquinn^ 

the circumstances which have led to war. stin.icy ! Why, in one of his despatches 

Therefore, Sii-, if I also speak with two the Colonial Secretary says — 

voices in this niatt<;r, I miLst ask the ..,, , . , , • 

J ^..r}..^ r* «^i. . ij .,« ♦ '4. One proposal after another Iia» been an 

Leader ot the Hotise to excuse it. a^lvance liid 'recession upon what has been 

1 do not piopose to go into a very made before." 
minute examination of all the compliwi- 

tions of these negotiations, which are AV here is the " criminal obstinacy " t Id 
puzzling enough. The Leader of the last July what was the statement made by 
Hou.se h;us claimwl, and no dou]>t he was the Colonial Secretary t It was ahnout a. 
entitled to do .«io, aiul it is natural he month after the Bloemfontein Conference- 
should claim, that the course of the had sefmrated without arri\'ing at anjr 
Government throughout the whole of the conclusion when the right hon. Gentleman, 
negotiation^ was that which naturally and said proposals had been made which 
properly teiuk^l to a jKiaceful solution. The oflfered the hope of a satisfactory settle- 
right hon. Gentleman is perfectly entitled ment. Is that criminal obstinacy t Ik 
to take that |K)sition, Init we do not accept my opinion, there is no justification foisay* 
that view of the subject ; on the contniry, ing there has Injen obstinate resistance to 
we believe that there are circumstances, reform. [** Oh, oh!"] It is my opinion; allow 

Sir JFUliim Ilanonri, 



213 Address in Answei' to {18 October 1899} the Queen's Speech, 214 



me to state the grounds of that opinion. In 
the first place, there is this fact. Within 
a month or so of the Bloemfontein Con- 
ference the South African Republic 
actually passed a law which is described 
in the despatch of the Colonial Secretary 
of, I think, July 27th, in these words : 
" that it differs only by two years from 
the proposals of Sir Alfred Milner." 
Those are his actual words in the 
despatch. 

The SECRETARY of STATE for 
THE COLONIES (Mr. J. Chamberlain, 
Birmingham, W.) : I beg the right hon. 
Gentleman's pardon. I am not quite cer- 
tain — I speak only from memory — but I 
am under the impression that the words 
were, " Differs only by two years as re- 
gards the franchise." 

Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT : At 
that time the onlv demand was the fran- 
chise. [Mr. Chaml)erlain was understood 
to dissent.] Very well, I will take it as 
regards the franchise. Nobody will deny 
that the main demand made at Bloemfon- 
tein was the franchise, and that was the 
question before the public mind. Sir 
Alfred Milner said he considered the 
franchise as a method of redressing the 
grievances of the U it Landers. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : I hope the 
right hon. Gentleman docs not object to 
my interrupting him ; if he does, I will 
not do so again. He is not quite correct. 
What Sir Alfred Milner asked for then, 
and what we have continuously asked for 
since up to the last moment when the 
negotiations were broken off by the Boer 
ultimatum, was such substantial and im- 
mediate representation of the Uitlander 
population as would enal)le them to work 
out their own salvation. 

Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT : I en- 
tirely accej)t that, and I was going to 
proceed to say that a proposal was made 
— in fact, a law was passed hy the Volks- 
raad — which law in regard to the fran- 
chise only differed by two years from the 
proposal of Sir Alfred Milner, and subject 
to inquiry as to itb efficiency. It is per- 
fectly true that at the time the Govern- 
ment of the Transvaal objected to that 
inquiry — not, as I think the hon. and 
gallant Gentleman who moved the 
Address said, because they were afraid 
inquiry would show the franchise to be 
insufficient; the objection to a joint 



inquiry was because it was thought it 
committed the Transvaal Government too 
much to the idea that another Power 
had a right, with themselves, to 
determine what the franchise should 
be. However, when we are pn "crimi- 
nal obstinacy," let me observe that 
this objection made by the Transvaal 
Government was afterwards withdrawn 
and a joint inquiry was agreed to. That 
is not criminal obstinacy. Step by step 
on all these points it will be found, not 
perhaps always p'oprio wotu by President 
Kruger, but due to the wise advice of the 
Government of the Free State and of 
Cape Colony, there was, up to the very 
last moment before you shut the door 
upon these discussions, yielding to pres- 
sure. I am going to state my reasons for 
that opinion, and I maintain that it is an 
absolutely incorrect and unjust statement 
to say that the Government of the Trans- 
vaal have with criminal obstinacy refused 
all reforms in regard to the administration 
of the South African Republic. Now,. 
Sir, the first proposal — or I should not 
call it a proposal — the first act, on the. 
part of the Transvaal Government was 
the passing of this franchise law. 
That was accepted as p^'imd facie satis- 
factory by the Colonial Secretary, subject 
to inquiry ; and he thereupon proceeded 
in August to propose that a joint inquiry 
should be appointed. Before the negotia- 
tions with reference to that settlement had 
been concluded there occurred what I will 
call the interlude of the proposal of 
August — the proposal of a five years 
franchise. The Government of the Trans- 
vaal were indisposed to the joint inquiry 
for the reasons which I have stated, and 
they consulted with the British Agent,. 
Mr. Conyngham Greene, as to whether or 
not it was practicable to interject another 
alternative ; and they took the precaution 
of inquiring whether the British Govern- 
ment would consider this alternative pro- 
posal as a refusal of the proposal for a 
joint inquiry. I do not enter into the 
question of the unfortunate misunder- 
standing upon that subject ; but I confess, 
that my view of it is that the Transvaal 
Government were under the full impres- 
sion that they were making an offer which 
would be readily accepted. I believe 
that is un([ue.stional)ly the fact. This 
offer is admitted to have been a fully 
satisfactory ofler, because it was proposed 
afterwards by the Government themselves,, 
as being a solution of the franchise ques- 

Second Day, 



215 Jddress in Aimvei- to {COMMONS} 



tJie Queen! s Speech. 



216 



tion ; but it was accompanied by certain 
conditions. What were those conditions, 
because that is very material ? They were, 
first, that the British Government should 
Agree " that the present intervention shall 
not form a precedent for future similar 
action." Is that a very unreasonable 
condition % [Ministerial cries of " Yes."] 
You think so, but I do not, and I will tell 
jou my reason for not thinking so. 
Secondly, "that Her Majesty's Govern- 
ment will not further insist upon the 
Assertion of the suzerainty, the contro- 
versy on this subject being allowed tacitly 
to drop." I call attention to this, and I 
wish the right hon. Gentleman particu- 
larly to observe this, because in one 
despatch it is stated that this offer was 
made conditional upon the British Go- 
vernment's acceptance of the allegation 
by the Transvaal Government that they 
were an independent international sove- 
reign State. That is not so. They never 
made that condition to their offer of 
August, and it is an inaccurate statement 
to say that they made that one of the 
•conditions. The third condition laid down 
was ** that arbitration, from which foreign 
element other than the Orange Free State 
is to be excluded, will be conceded as 
soon as the franchise scheme has become 
law." That is hanlly a matter of con- 
troversy ; there was really very little 
difference on that subject ; I do not know 
whether it is considered that that was 
altered by the subsequent telegram 
in which the Transvaal Govern- 
ment state that in future we are 
"not to interfere in the internal 
affairs of the South African Republic and 
not to insist further on the existence of 
■the suzerainty." Gentlemen opposite say 
that it was a monstrous thing on the part 
of the Transvaal Government to demand 
that they should have some assurance 
that this intervention in the matter of 
the franchise shoukl not be made a prece- 
dent for future normal intervention in 
their affairs. It is pefectly true, as has 
been said in this controversy, that Presi- 
dent Kruger and his Government enter- 
tained the opinion that they were entitled 
to absolute autonomy in the administra- 
tion of their own affairs ; that that was 
guaranteed to them ; and that that was 
what we meant in speaking of their inde- 
pendence. Then I ask. Where did 
President Kruger learn th.at opinion ? 
Who were his teachers, and from whom 
did he derive that impression ? I suppose 

Sir JFilliam Ilarrouri. 



that he had access to the statements of 
the Colonial Secretary, and that he had 
read, marked, and inwardly digested 
them. This is what the Colonial Secre- 
tary said in this House three years 
ago— 

** In some quarters the idea is put forward 
that the Government ousht to have issued an 
ultimatum to President Kruger — an ultimatum 
which would certainly have been rejected and 
which must have led to war. Sir, I do not 
propose to discuss sucli a contingency as that. 
A war in South Africa would be one of the 
most serious wars that could possibly be 
waged. It would be in the nature of a eivil 
war. It would be a long war, a bitter war, 
and a costly war." 

Ministerial interruptions.] Yes, I know 
;hat this passage is familiar to the House, 

but you must remember it is familiar also 

to President Kruger. 

** It would leave behind it the embers of 
strife which I believe generations would hardly 
1)6 long enough to extmguish. ... To go 
to war with President Kruger, in order to 
force upon him reforms in the internal idSairs 
of his State, with which successive Secretaries 
of State standing in this place have repudiat€Ml 
all right of interference — ^that would have 
l)een a course of action as immoral as it would 
have lieen unwise. , . . In the last com- 
munication I sent to the President, I defined 
what I conceived to be our rights in the 
matter. I said we did not claim, and never 
had claimed, the right to interfere in the in- 
ternal aftairs of the Transvaal ; but we did 
claim, lK)th tus representing the interests of oor 
fellow-subjects in the Transvaal, and as the 
paramount Power in South Africa, responsi- 
nility for the security of the whole country, to 
make friendly representations to Mm and to 
give him friendly advice, as much in his in- 
terest as in our own." 

That is the view, no doubt, that President 
Kruger and the Government of the Trans- 
vaal took of their position — that we had 
never claimed the right by force to dictate 
to them in regard to their internal affairs. 
We did claim the right to give them 
friendly advice in the interests of South 
Africa, and in the interests of our 
fcllow-su})jects there. But that is not 
all. This doctrine of the Colonial Secre- 
tary did not commend itself to the 
anient soul of the hon. Member for 
the Ecclesall Division of Sheffield, who 
spoke last night, and who attacked 
most violently the Colonial Secretary for 
the principles which he had laid down. 
The Coloiual Secretary then said — 

"What is the alternative? What U the 
policy which the hon. Gentleman would put 
forwanl if he were standing here in my placet 
What would be the policy of the hon. Member 
for Sheffield as Colonial Secretary ? " Well, the 
hon. Member for Sheffield claimed lastnlgfat the 



217 Address in Ajiswer to {18 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 21& 



character of consistency, and I grant it to him 
readily. " We know what it would be. He would 
send, in the first place, an ultimatum to Presi- 
dent Kruger that unless the reforms which he 
specified were granted by a particular date the 
British Government would interfere by force. 
Then, I suppose, he would come here and ask 
this House for avote of £10,000,000 or £20,000,000 
— it does not matter particularly which — and 
wonld send an army of 10,000 men, at the very 
least, to force President Kruger to grant 
reforms in a State in regard to which not only 
this Grovemment, but successive Secretaries 
of State have pledged themselves repeatedly 
that they would have nothing to do with its 
internal affairs." 

Do you suppose that that language is not 
known to the Government of the Trans- 
vaal ? Do you suppose that from that 
language they may not have derived the 
impression of their immunity from inter- 
vention and the completeness of their 
autonomy ? Having described the Colo- 
nial policy of the Member for the Ecclesall 
Division, the Colonial Secretary finally 
added, "That is the policy of the hon. 
Gentleman. That is not my policy." In 
regard to consistency, I must give 
credit to the hon. Member, which I can 
hardly accord to the present Colonial 
Secretary. There were remarkable state- 
ments in that speech. The right hon. 
Gentleman stated that not only this 
Grovemment, but successive Secretaries of 
State had repeatedly pledged themselves 
not to interfere in the internal affairs of 
the Transvaal. There is nothing said 
here about suzerainty, or even para- 
mountcy. This is very important, because 
it describes a traditional and consecutive 
policy, not one arising simply out 
of tne Eaid. It has been the defi- 
nite declaration of policy on the part 
of the Government of the Queen. 
It was in the year 1890, 1 think, that those 
changes in the franchise were made in the 
South African Republic to which such 

feat attention has been paid, and I believe 
am correct in saj'^ing that the Govern- 
ment of Lord Salisbury, then in ofl&ce, 
made no protest against those changes. 
But at all events, on February 25th, 
1890, this question was put in the House 
of Commons— 

"Mr. E. Hardcastle: I beg to ask the 
First Lord of the Treasury whether tlie 
suzerainty of the Transvaal was retained 
by the Sritish Crown when the troops were 
withdrawn from that country ; what Ls the 
nature and value of that suzerainty ; and 
whether, under it, British subjects, who are 
said already to outnumber the Boers, are 
entitled to the franchise." 



There could not be a more searching 
question than that put to a responsible 
Government. This is the answer which 
Mr. W. H. Smith made. It is marked 
with a star in Hansard, indicating that it 
was a carefully considered answer, and to 
those who, like myself, have some ex- 
perience of the manner in which answers 
of this kind are made, I venture to say 
that it was founded on the advice of the 
law officers of the Crown. Mr. Smith 
said in reply — 

" The Convention of London made in 1884 
l)etween Her Majesty and the South African 
Republic contains no express reservation of 
the Queen's right of suzerainty, 

— they did not know, apparently, that 

the preamble was in it — 

and although Her Majesty retains under the 
Convention the power of refusing to sanction 
treaties made by the South African Republic 
with forei^ States and nations, and >vith 
certain native tribes, it is a cardinal principle 
of that settlement that the internal govern- 
ment and legislation of the South African 
Republic shall not be interfered with." 

This is the " language of successive 

Secretaries of State " upon which the 

Colonial Secretary founded himself in 

I 1896. Then he applies himself to the 

I question of the franchise, which was a 

' burning question at that time — 

** No persons, whether British subjects or 
otherwise, can at present obtain the franchise 
within the South African Rei)ublic unless they 
: make a declaration of allegiance to it, which 
involves to a considerable extent the renuncia- 
tion within the Republic of their national 
rights and obligations as subjects of the 
Queen." 

That is one of the successive Government 
statements upon this subject. Now I 
come to one in which 1 am more parti- 
cularly interested, because it was in the 
Government of which I was a member in 
1895, and when I stood in the place of 
the present Leader of the House. It was 
a statement made on behalf of the Govern-- 
ment of Lord Kosebery ; it was a state- 
ment, carefully considered, on the Address, 
by my hon. friend who was then Under- 
Secretary for the Colonies; it was the 
statement of the Colonial Office and th& 
Government of 1895. It was this — 

"A principle had been laid down very 
clearly and definitely by the late Government 
in a sentence with wliich the present Govern- 
ment feel themselves in accord." 

He then read the answer of Mr. W. H. 
Smith, which I need not trouble the 
House with again. 

** That was the interpretation of the existing^ 
relations between England and the Transvaal^ 

Second Day, 



:219 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech, 



220 



^which he thought very clearly laid down the 
principles to guide our conduct in the matter. 
Though" — mark this — "they might differ 
from the way in which the Transvaal carried 
•out their principles of administration, he did 
not see that in existing circumstances the 
•<jOvemment had the right to forcibly interfere 
in regard to these questions.'* 

There we have again the tradition, the 
statement of the relations under the Con- 
vention of 1884 of the British Govern- 
ment to the Government of the Trans- 
vaal. Can you wonder, then, after read- 
ing those statements, that the Govern- 
ment of the Transvaal and President 
Kruger were firmly convinced that 
beyond friendly representations there was 
no right forcibly to interfere and impose 
upon them the will of the British Govern- 
ment in respect to their internal adminis- 
tration ? That is my answer to the objec- 
tions that were taken, apparently by 
Gentlemen opposite, to my statement 
that it was not unreasonable that, when 
the Government of the Transvaal did 
•agree practically to all you had asked for 
at Bloemfontein in regard to the fran- 
chise, you should give them an assurance 
that you did not intend that to be a 
regular course of proceeding, that you did 
not claim a general right of intervention 
— I do not care whether under the 
name of suzerainty, or paramountcy, or 
anything else — that you were not going 
to deprive them of that autonomy which 
they possess, and that you should give 
them an assurance that it was not to be 
made a precedent. That is why I say 
that in my opinion, if you objected to 
the particular form in which those con- 
•ditions were stated, you might have 
modified their form, Init that it was 
absolutely unnecessary to have rejected 
the conditions summarily. That is the 
view I have alwavs taken on the matter, 
and I have deeply regretted that the 
proposals of August 19th were rejected. 
Though I desire to say nothing which 
would be personally disagi^eeable or offen- 
sive to the right hon. Gentleman, 1 must 
permit myself to say that, having this 
offer before him — the best offer that had 
been made, an offer far in advance of any 
•of those that had l)een previcjusly marie — 
1 regret that he should have thought it 
right and necessary, in a speech just 
after that offer had ]>een made, 
before it had been discussed or an 
official answer had been sent to 
it, to denounce it to the public. 
J confess I do not think language of that 

Sir William Haranni. 



kind was likely to conduce to a favourable 
and peaceful settlement. These were 
negotiations which had then reached a 
most promising point, and the conse- 
quence was that this offer of five years 
franchise was rejected, that is to say, it 
was rejected because the conditions 
attached to it were sneered at and re 
jected. That is the reason why it came 
to an end. The right hon. Gentleman 
will say that he did not reject them, but 
when you make a man an offer subject to 
conditions, and you refuse the conditions, 
it is practically a rejection. So perished, 
unhappily, the offer of August 19. Then, 
what is the position of things ? I have 
already mentioned that the Government 
of the Transvaal reserved their right to 
return upon the proposal of the right hon. 
Gentleman himself — that is, to accept 
the franchise law jyriitid fticie as a basis of 
settlement subject to inquiry. In point 
of fact, they said, " We reserve our right 
to revert to our former conditions, which 
you accepted, and now we are ready to 
go on with an examination into the con- 
dition of things under the existing law." 
I have never understood why the Govern- 
ment so much objected to that. They 
say they convinced themselves without 
this inquiry that it was insufficient. But 
if they had gone into this inqiury, and it 
had been found that they were right and 
that the provisions were insufficient, they 
would have convinced all the world that 
they were right in rejecting them. No 
harm could come from that. They would 
have proved to the world what they have 
not yet proved — the insufficient nature of 
those proposals. Why they should at 
the very last have refused to go into the 
inquiry I have never been able to under- 
stand. I want now to say, without 
going more into detail, that I think 
it was a great misfortune that you 
did not carry to an issue the negotiations 
upon the five years franchise with its 
conditions, because you might have modi- 
fied those conditions, or might have shown 
to Mr. Kniger or, if not to him, to the 
world that they were unreasonable. You 
might have done the same with reference 
to the seven years franchise. But I want 
to come to the material point — to what 
led to the final breach. On September 
16 the Government of the Transvaal sent 
a despatch to the British Government^ in 
which they pressed again that the Joint 
Commission of Inquiry should be ap- 
pointed in order to investigate whether 



221 Address in Answer (o {18 October 1899} f lie Queen's Speech. 222 



or not the franchise proposed was or was 
not sufficient. They said that their con- 
dition was the dropping of the suzerainty. 
Well, Sir, I believe that everybody is 
pretty well convinced now that the 
suzeraintywas dropped in 1884. ["No, 
no ! n Well, " successive Secretaries of 
State have, at ail events, been under 
that impression. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Never, 
never. 

Sir WILLIAxM HARCOURT: Will 
jou produce the opinions of the law 
officers of the Crown 1 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : I do not 
know what they are, but I will produce 
if you like the opinion of your own 
Secretary of State for the Colonies. 

Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: I 
know what his opinion is ; but. Sir, the 
suzerainty was, I venture to say, never 
put forward as a basis of action. I may 
be mistaken in that ; if I am the right 
hon. Gentleman will correct me, but my 
belief is that the suzerainty was never 
put forward in an official document 
addressed to Mr. Kruger until it was put 
forward by the right hon. (gentleman in 
the despatch of October, 1897. I may be 
wrong in that, but at all events that is 
my impression. However that may be, 
Her Majesty's Government dropped on 
suzerainty, and said that their offer of the 
five years' franchise had not put out of 
court the original joint inquiry, and it is 
also important to Hote that they said 
they would agree to a conference upon 
other matters that had been proposed. 
Very well ; then comes the really critical 
point which led immediately to the 
breach — namely, the despatch of 
September 22, in which Her Majesty's 
Government declined to go on with any 
discussion upon the franchise at all. 
They said it is " useless to further pur- 
sue a discussion on the lines hitherto 
followed." That meant that they would 
not discuss in a Joint Commission the 
sufficiencv of the franchise alreadv 
granted. Thev said the v would **fomm- 
late their own proposals for a final settle- 
ment," and that they would commum'cate 
t'.ie result of their deliberations in a later 
<le3patch. Mark, that was on September 
22. Now my right hon. Friend the 
Loader of the Opposition put this point 
very definitely to the Leader of the House, 



and I confess I could not understand that he 
gave any answer to the question why 
those proposals were never made and why 
they have never been put before the 
Government of the Transvaal or before 
the House of Commons. A very remark- 
able point in connection with this dis- 
cussion and the breach that has taken 
place is the application on the part of 
the President of the Free State pressing 
to have these proposals of Her Majesty's 
Government communicated. President 
Steyn said if they were so communicated 
there was a good chance of peace. The 
right hon. Gentleman looks incredulous. 
He knows what the proposals are, and I 
do not. But what we were told by the 
Duke of Devonshire was that they were 
most moderate proposals, and that if they 
were known they would remove any 
suspicion on the part of the Transvaal 
Government that there was any intention 
to invade their independence. If that 
is a true account of them, it was most 
important that they should be known. 
You shut one door ; the least you could 
do would have been to have opened 
another — another door for peace : another 
door for moderate proposals; proposals 
which, according to the Duke of Devon- 
shire, were so moderate that they would 
have reassured President Kruger and the 
Government of the Transvaal that their 
independence would not be impaired. 
Where are these proposals ? This was 
on Septeml)er 28 when we are coming 
to the very point of the breach. Your 
great object ought to have been to have 
kept the Free State with you, and here 
you have the President of the Free State 
entreating you to communicate your 
proposals. This is what the President 
says — 

" His Government are still prei>ared to tender 
their services to further the interests of 
peace, and to continue in their endeavour 
to procure a satisfactory solution of exist- 
ing difficulties on fair and reasonable lines. 
The Free State, however," the President 
added, " feel themselves hampered now as in 
the past by a want of knowhid^^e as to the 
definite objects and extent of the desires and 
demands of the British CJoverament, com- 
pliance with which that Government consider 
themselves entitled to insist on, and as to the 
grounds on which that insist,ence is l>ased." 

Then the President ended by saying 

that — 

** There is a great deal of irritation caused 
by the accumulation of troops on the frontier 
oii the Free State and of the Transvaal 
Republic, and by these demands which are 
threatened but which are not known, and that 

Senmd Day, 



223 Address in Answer to { COM MONS } 



the QaeeiCs Speech, 224 



they would be glad to be favoured ^vith the 
views of Her Majesty's Grovemment on the 
points raised herein, and more particularly 
as to the precise nature and scope of the con- 
cessions or measures the adoption whereof Her 
Majesty's Government consider themselves 
entitled to claim, or which they suggest as 
being necessary or suflicient to insure a satis- 
factory and permanent solution of existing 
differences 1>etween them and the South 
African Uepublic, while at the same time pro- 
viding a means of settlement of others that 
may arise in the future." 

Now, there you have a demand on the 

I)art of the Free State, against whom you 

had no complaint to make, to be informed 

of your demands, and tendering their good 

offices, and asking that in the meantime 

you would not press on with your forces on 

their frontier. What is the answer to 

that ? The answer is this — that the very 

next day the Colonial Secretary tele- 

l^raphed to Sir A. Milner to say that — 

*' Her Majesty's Government have been com- 
)ielled to formulate their own proposals for a 
iinal Hcttlcment which will shortly be com- 
municated to the Government of the South 
African Uepublic." 

That is a very good answer. Then the 
State Secretary — that is to say, the 
Transvaal Covernment, likewise asked that 
they might be informed as to the decision 
the British Cabinet had taken. On 
October 1, five days after the Cabinet had 
announced that they were going to 
fonnulate proposals, this is the answer 
Hent by the Colonial Secretary to Sir A. 
Milner : — 

** The despatch of Her Majesty's Govern- 
ment is being prepared ; it will be some days 
lief ore it is ready." 

What a most extraordinary thing ! [" Oh ! 
oh."] Yes, when you are telling the people 
that the sands are running out ! You shut 
o»ie door of negotiation and say that you 
have not made up your minds as to what 
demands you should make on the other side, 
and that it would take some days before 
you could consider them. They had five 
days. How many days, when the sands 
were running out, did Her Majesty's 
Government require to make up their 
minds as to what were the demands they 
were going to make ? It is nearly a 
month since you announced you would 
draw up these proposals. What are they .' 
When the Duke of Devonshire comes 
forward and says that they were such 
reasonable proposals that they would 
satisfy the (xovernment of the Transvaal 
that they did not impair their autonomy, 
wo have a right to know them. You ha \ c 
no right to involve the British nation in 

Sir inUvtm Ilarnmrf. 



war and keep it in the dark as to the 
proposals which you were prepared to 
make. Now what is the situation ? You 
had shut one door and refused to open 
the other. Well, the Orange Free State 
was naturally anxious, and on October 5, 
ten days after your announcement wa» 
j made. President Steyn wrote — 

'' I see no reason why such proposals should 
not be forthcoming, and I myself am prepared 
actively to assist in bringing about the indi- 
cated and desirable result. I must, however^ 
point out that it seems to me that it would be 
most difficult to attempt to make friendly 
proposals or to continue to negotiate while 
the armed forces on both sides remain in 
menacing positions." 

At the end of his despatch. President 
Steyn says — 

" I would be further pre{)ared to aid, if possible, 
in formulating, and heartily to assist in dealinir 
with and supporting, all reasonable proposals 
which shall possess the elements of finality, 
and give the assurance of a lasting peace. A 
reply to my request made in the last para- 
graph of the telegraphic despatch ot September 
27 would enable me to judge how far it \iroald 
be possible for me to continue the negotiations.'^ 

Then on October 5, President Steyn again 
telegraphed, demanding that he should 
be informed whether he could find it 
possible to support the proposals to be 
made, and to press them upon the Trans- 
vaal Government. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes ; but as 
a preliminary, he said that the British 
troops must be withdrawn before it was 
possible for him to give assistance. I 
think the right hon. Gentleman ynUl find, 
if he looks at the Blue Book, that Presi- 
dent Steyn said it would not be a possible 
thing for him to interfere unless we with- 
drew our troops. 

Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: The 
right hon. Gentleman will have an 
opportunity of correcting me. But, Sir, 
what was the answer to President Steyn's 
request 1 There was no communication 
of a proposal, but — I think two days after 
that final appeal of the President of the 
Free State to be informed of what 
the demands of the British Government 
were — the Reserves were called out. 
That was the only answer to the offer of 
ihi^ Free State to act the part of a friendly 
iru'diator if we would only inform them 
\\ hat terms we were prepared to accept. 
Can you wonder that under these circum- 
>^t aiices you have alienated the Free State t 
Why should you have refused to tell them 
t hi' reasonable terms upon which you were 



225 Address in Answer to {18 October 1899} tJie Queen's Speech. 226 

advance in that direction. I believe 
more could have been done if only we 
had persevered. We are all agreed that 
this is a deplorable war which everyone 
would wish to avoid ; but we have a 
right to ask the Government why, when 
their pressure had succeeded to a consider- 
able extent, they did not continue in the 
path which led to peace, where they 
might have hoped for further concessions ; 
and why it was that having concluded 
they would not pui*sue those lines they 
did not state what the alternative was 
that they proposed in place of it. These 
are questions we are entitled to ask. 



prepared to take your stand 1 In my 
opinion I see in these circumstances 
the immediate cause of the breach that 
took place. I can see no reason myself 
why you should not have gone on with 
the inquiry by Joint Commission. I can 
see no reason why these fair and reason- 
able proposals which would have com- 
mended themselves to all mankind should 
not have been made known. I cannot 
conceive why you should have rejected 
the good offices of the Free State. It is 
quite true that Sir A. Milner said that the 
Free State would be glad to receive any 
proposals from you, but was it rational 
that they should make proposals when 
you had shut the door on their proposals, 
and when you had said that you were pre- 
pared to make your own proposals backed 
up by calling out the Reserves'? That made 
the situation almost impossible. The Duke 
of Devonshire says that we were always 
desirous of respecting the independence 
of the Transvaal 1 I should like to know 
what is meant by respecting the independ- 
ence of the Transvaal. Does it or does 
it not mean a claim — and this is the real 
question — in respect of paramountcy, that 
you have a right, in spite of the Conven- 
tion of 1884, to interfere when you 
please, and to whatever extent you 
please, and in what manner you 
please with the Government and 
administration of the wliole' of South 
Africa 1 Paramountcy is alleged not 
merely with reference to the Transvaal ; 
it includes, of course, the Free State. 
The general paramountcy of South Africa 
means the paramountcy over evci-yone in 
South Africa, and I suppose over Portugal 
too. How do you use general words of 
this kind ? If you tell the Free State 
that you are so paramount that you can 
do what you like in any part of South 
Africa, what becomes of the independence 
of their Republic ? You must see that, 
emplo^^ed in the sense in which you use 
it, paramountcy is a contradiction of 
independence ; the two terms are opposed 
one to the other. We arc, therefore, 
bound to ask the Government what is the 
character of the independence in South 
Africa which the Duke of Devonshire says 
that they have always respected. These 
are matters upon which we have a right 
to ask explanations of the Government. 
There is another point which has been 
agreed upon by both sides. AVe are 
agreed that there ought to have been 
pressure for reforms. There has been 
pressure, and there has been made a great 

VOL. LXXVII. [Fourth Series.] 



This right of interference is sometimes 
stated as if it was an international 
law right which every State has to 
protect its subjects in another country. 
That is not what is meant by paramountcy. 
The two ideas are totally distinct. Para- 
mountcy is a right to interfere as a 
superior over a subonlinate State ; the 
other is a right of interference which 
every State has in regard to its own sub- 
jects ; but no one has ever pretended that 
the international law right of intervention 
in favour of subjects gives you a right to 
demand particular laws of a political 
character, of naturalisation, of franchise, 
or anything of the kind. I observe that 
the Prime Minister has undertaken, I 
think in rather a half-hearted way, a 
defence of what is sometimes called the 
new diplomacy. I think as a past master 
whose skill in that respect we all recog- 
nise and admire that Lord Salisbury him- 
self is rather in favour of that which he 
says is certainly more favourable to 
diplomatic success. AVhat is diplomatic 
success ? Diplomatic success is the 
removing of friction, the smoothing of pre- 
judices, and the pursuing peace by 
methods which are likely to bring about 
that end. That is the art of the old 
diplomacy. In fencing matches we all 
admit that Lord Salisbury is a master of 
the rapier ; that he prefers the use of the 
rapier to the bludgeon. But the Prime 
Minister made this defence of the new 
diplomacy ; he said it might sometimes 
be desirable, even at the expense of 
diplomatic success, to secure for yourself 
popular support. That is a valuable 
thing, but how is it likely to be gained 1 
You may gain it, of course, by appealing 
to the passions and the. prejudices of the 
people, of the South African League, of 
the Rhodes party, of the press who are 
the admirers of the Itaid. But then 
you must remember that you obtain 

H '\y. 



227 A(ldre.<is in Answer to {COMMONS} th£ Queen's Speech, 22S 

popular support at the expense of any the moment and in the manner in which 

chance of conciliating or settling with it was used — in the position of having a 

your adversary, which is the real object of " clean slate." For my part, at lcast>, I 

diplomacy. You cannot have the two nuist dissociate myself altogether from 

things ; and if you are appealing in that responsil)ility of any kind for the measures 

way for popular support by publications which have led up to this war ; jukI 

of this kind, by the publication of while I am prepared, as I am sure every 

exasperating notes and irritating speeches, Meni])er is prepared, to support the 

what chance have you of arriving at a Government of the Queen in the unhappy 

settlement ? In my opinion, if you pur- conflict in which we Jire engaged, I must 

chase popular support in the way which decline to beiir any share of responsiliility 

the Prime Minister seems to think is a in the course of transactions which have 

democratic virtue — I do not know that led to it. 

he shares the view largely himself-but if Mr. j. CHAMBERLAIN : I rise only 

democratic diplomacy means the cultiva- for the purpose of asking a question and 

tion of popular arts at the expense of of making a motion. The (juestion I wish 

seeking to soothe the asperities and to to ask is of the right hon. Gentleman who 

remove the hostilities of nations, it is a has just sat down. I desire verv fully to 

bad look out for the cause of peace now reply to the serious argument which he 

and hereafter. What happens by publica- has brought forward, in regard to the 

tions of this kind ? You set at work all tone and substance of which I have no 

sorts of influences which make it diflicult possible complaint to make ; but in onler 

for you to do what you yourselves desire, that I may answer it fully I would 

When a proposal is made, and there is ask him now to be goo<l enough to 

not much diff'erence between you, you let gay what are the despatches and 

loose all the men who do not desire peace what are the speeches which he con- 

to embarrass the settlement of that gidei-s have been delivered or sent in the 

question and the removal of difficulties, course of these negotiations which are of 

and you bring about exactly what you a provocative character. He has referred 

do not desire— a lamentable and most to one speech— the speech in which I 

shameful war. I am not here pretending gpoke of the sands running down, and I 

to justify the conduct of the Boer assume that I may take that as one of 

Government. I think it is to be those which in his opinion come within 

condemned. I think that the ultimatum this category. But what other speech 

they»sent forth no words can Ikj too strong and what despatch is there to which he 

to condemn. But that is their affair. We desires to call my attention? Ha\ing 

have to look to what concerns us, to asked this (piestion, I beg to move that 

scrutinize carefully the conduct of onr the Delxate l>e now adjourned, 
own Government, and to satisfy our- .,„, ^vttttam u a i:>r«rkTTr>T. t -n 
selves that in every resixfct it ^SiR AHLUAM HARCOT^ 

h.'is been that which was most conducive ST'^'^" ^^^ ^^^^ hon Gentleman at once, 

to the cause of peace. On that sul> The speech I referred to is, I think, known 

ject I confess, having examined this J?, ^'^^^{ ^"^ ^« ^^^ Highbury speech. 

matter as carefully as I can, I am not ^Y if' i ^^ u ^"^r ^^^J" l"" .^"""^ 

satisfied. The right hon. (Icntleman the [^^^7^^ Wf^^ ^^"- ^"f ^ t^^.^^'^'" 

Colonial Secretaiy will have the oppor- I'^^fJ^f^ ^^^l^f^^^^^^^ 
tunity, as 
state the case 

state the case .^. ..w.^v,** „,u.. *viv..^.xv«^ i ^^ v i,- i t r i 

to the conduct of these transiictions. I I ^^^^P^^'^^ ^'^^'^^ I <^^"^ess occurrwl to me, 

have imperiectlv endeavoured to lav ' ""''"^ '^''^ .P''^'P''^ ^^f^! ^ PX '^'?^ «« ^^ 

l)efore the Houie reasons why I think 1 ne^<^ssa"ly introducing irritating topica 

there are points in these transactions i"to the discussion. 

which might have been diflercntly con- Mk. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Thank 

ducted, and if they had l)een so conducted you. 

would have led to a different issue. At j Debate adjourned till to-morrow. 

all events, until I have heard the explana- j in pursuance of the Order ol the 

tions to l>e given l»y the nght hon. House of this day, Mr. Speaker adjourned 

(4entleinan, I must remain of the opinion ! the House without Question put. 

that we are not m the phrase of Sir A. Adjourned at twenty miniitas 

Milner— an unfortunate phrase, I think, at ' after Five of theclock. 

Sir Jrilliam Ilammrt. 



we know he has the abilitvrto *^"^, "^ "9f<'s«'7 to go into it in more 
ase of the (iovcrmncnt and to ' ^<'^,f ..T^'''"' f ^""^^.^ ™'^"* '•>« 
»8e for himself with reference ' P^l'l^-ation , .0/ ^ Sir Alfred Milncr's 



229 



Returns^ 



19 October 1899} 



Reports, etc 



230 



HOUSE OF LORDS. 
Thursday, 19th October 1899. 



\ 



I 

^ 

I 






SOUTH AFRICAN AFFAIRS— EMBGDI- 
MENT OF THE MILITIA— MESSAGE 
FROM THE QUEEN. 

The prime MINISTER and SEC- 
RETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN 
AFFAIRS (The Marquess of Salis- 
bury^ : My Lords, I have to lay before 
the House the following gracious Message 
from Her Majesty — 

''The state of affairs in Soath Africa having 
eooatitated in the opinion of Her Majesty a 
ease <^ great emergency within the meaning 
df tiie Act of Parliament, Her Majesty deems 
it pcoper to provide additional means for the 
muituy service, and therefore has thoufj^ht it 
right to oommonicate to the House of Lords 
that Her Majesty is, by proclamation, aliout 
to order the embodiment of Militia, and to call 
oat Her MUitia Reserve Force, or such part 
theieof as Her Majesty shall think necessary, 
lor permanent service. 

In answer to that Message it is usual for 
the House to vote an Address, and as, 
owing to the different arrangement of 
business in the two Houses, that proceed- 
ing was given notice of yesteixiay and is 
now going on in the House of Commons, 
I think I shall best consult your Lord- 
ships' convenience by moving that the 
Message be considered immediately. 

Moved, That Her Majesty's gracious 
Message be taken into consideration 
forthwith. 

The same was agreed to, and the said 
Message considered accordingly. 

Then it was moved " That an humble 
Address be presented to Her Majesty 
thanking Her Majesty for her most 
gracious Message communicating to this 
House Her Majesty's intention to cause 
the Militia to be embodied, and the 
Militia Reserve Force, or such part thereof 
as Her Majesty may think necessary, to 
be forthwith called out for permanent 
service." Agreed to, nemine duisentiente. 

Ordered that the said Address be pre- 
sented to Her Majesty by the Lords with 
White Staves. 



RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 



ARMY. 

Memorandum showing the principal 
heads of expenditure provided for in the 

VOL. LXXVII. [Fourth Series.] 



Army Supplementary Estimate required ia 
consequence of the military situation in 
South Africa. 

VENEZUELA. No. 7 (1899) (BOUNDARY 
BETWEEN THE COLONY OF BRITISH 
GUIANA AND THE UNITED STATES 
OF VENEZUELA). 

Award of the Tribunal of Arbitration 
constituted under Article I. of the 
Treaty of Arbitration signed at Wash- 
ington on February 2, 1897, between 
Great Britain and the United States of 
Venezuela. 

IRISH LAND COMMISSION 
(PROCEEDINGS) 

Returns for the months of July and 
August, 1899. 

Presented (by command), and ordered 
to lie on the Table. 

SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1884. 

I. Treasury Minutes, dated respec- 

tively August 5, September 2, 
and September 28, 1899, declar- 
ing that R. D. Herring, Legation 
constable, Peking Consular ser- 
vice, Mr. Hanmer Lewis Dupiis, 
formerly clerk, Tangier Mission, 
and Mary Bryne, sub-postmistress, 
Beaumaris, were appointed with- 
out civil service certificates 
through inadvertence on the part 
of the heads of their departments. 

II. Treasury Minute, dated September 

20, 1899, granted a retired allow- 
ance to Mr. Charles Lewis James, 
assistant clerk in the Local 
Government Board, under section 
2 of the Superannuation Act, 
1887. 

POLLING DISTRICTS-ORDERS MADE. 

1. By the County Council of the 

county palatine of Lancaster, 
altering certain polling districts in 
the parliamentary division of 
Westhoughton. 

2. By the Council of the County 

borough of West Ham, dividing 
the lx)rough into municipal 
and parliamentary polling dis- 
tricts. 

3. By the County Council of Hert- 

fordshire, dividing the eastern or 
Hertford parliamentary division 
into convenient polling districts. 

I 



231 



Questions, 



{COMMbNS} 



Questions. 



232 



GENERAL PRISON (IRELAND) ACT, 1877. 

Order in Council approving of rule 
made by the General Prisons Board in 
pursuance of the Fine or Imprisonment 
(Scotland and Ireland) Act, 1899. 

DISEASES OF ANIMALS ACTS, 1894 and 

1896. 

Two Orders, dated the 30th September, 
entitled respectively the Cardiff Foreign 
Animals Wharf Revocation Order of 1899 
and the Cardiff Foreign Animals Order of 
1899. . 

SCIENCE AND ART DEPARTMENT. 

Minutes of Committee of Council on 
Education sanctioning subjects to be 
taught under clause 8 of Technical Instruc- 
tion Act, 1889, for— 

I. Counties of — 

Glamorgan (eighth minute) ; 
Berkshire (third minute) ; 
Oldham (sixth minute) ; 
The Soke of Peterborough 
(seventh minute). 

II. County Borough of — 
Portsmouth (fifth minute). 

III. City and County Borough of — 
Birmingham (fifth minute). 

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACTS, 1882-1890. 

Rules made by the Board of Trade in 
pursuance of section 5 of the Electric 
Lighting Act, 1882. 

Laid before the House (pursuant to 
A^t), and ordered to lie on the Table. 

House adjoamed at twenty-five minutes 
before Five of the clock, to Thursday 
next, a quarter past Four of the 
<;lock. 



RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. 



HOUSE OF COMMONS. 

Thursday, 19th October 1899. 



PETITION, 



POOR LAW AMENDMENT SCOT- 
LAND) ACT, 1845. 

Petition from Boyndie, for alteration of 
Law ; to lie upon the Table. 



IRISH LAND COMMISSION 
(PROCEEDINGS). 

Copy presented, of Return of Proceed- 
ings of the Commission during the months 
of July and August 1899 (by Command) ; 
to lie upon the Table. 

FINE OR IMPRISONMENT (SCOTLAND 
AND IRELAND) ACT (1899) RULES. 

Copy presented, of Order in Council 

approving of Rule made by the General 

Prisons Board for Ireland under the 

Fine or Imprisonment (Scotland and 

Ireland) Act, 1899 (by Act); to lie 

upon the Table. 

DISEASES OF ANIMALS ACTS, 
1894 AND 1896. 

Copy presented, of two Orders, dated 
the 30th September, 1899, entitled re- 
spectively the Cardiff Foreign Animals 
Wharf Revocation Order of 1899 and the 
Cardiff Foreign Animals Wharf Order of 
1899 (by Act) ; to lie upon the Table. 

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACTS, 
1882 TO 1890. 

Copy presented, of Rules made by 

the Board of Trade in pursuance of 

Section (5) of The Electric Lighting Act» 

1882 (by Act) ; to lie upon the TaUe. 

VENEZUELA (No. 7. 1899). 
Copy presented, of Award of the 
Tribunal of Ai*bitration constituted under 
Article I. of the Treaty concluded at 
Washington on the 2nd February, 1897, 
between Her Britannic Majesty and the 
United States of Venezuela respecting 
the Settlement of the Boimdary between 
British Guiana and the Unitea States of 
Venezuela (by Command) ; to lie upon 
the Table. 

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (ENGIAND, 
WALES, AND IRELAND) (TECHNICAL 
EDUCATION). 

Return presented, relative thereto 

(ordered 9th June, 1899 ; Sir John Ganf) ; 

to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. 

(No. 5.) 

QUESTIONS 



HAULBOWLINE DOCKS. — ACCIDENT 
TO THE "PRINCE GEORGE." 

Mr, field (Dublin, St. Patrick): 
I beg to ask the First Lord of the Ad- 



:233 



Questions. 



{19 October 1899} 



Questions, 



234 



imiralty whether one of the battleships of 
the Channel Squadron to which an acci- 
«dent happened recently at Berehaven was 
unable to enter. Haulbowline Dock owing 
to the silting up of sand and refuse at the 
entrance of the docks ; and what steps 
the Government purpose taking to put 
•the docks in such a cbndition that ships 
-can enter them to be repaired. 

The civil LORD of the ADMIR- 
ALTY (Mr. Austen Chamberlain, 
Worcestershire, E.) : The accident which 
occurred to the "Prince George," the 
battleship apparently referred to, was the 
breaking of a derrick. There was no 
^occasion to dock the ship to repair this. 
The dock at Haulbowline is quite capable 
of taking the "Prince George" if re- 
•quired. The " Howe " (drawing about a 
ioot more than the " Prince George ") was 
•docked there on the 8th May, 1899. The 
entrance will, no doubt, require dredging 
periodically ; this will be undertaken 
whenever it becomes necessary. 

THE GUARDS. 

Mr. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Reeis) : 
I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State 
ior War whether the 2nd Battalion 
'Grenadier Guards, lately stationed at 
Kribraltar, was warned for active service 
in South Africa ; whether the battalion 
^previous to leaving Gibraltar was up to 
nearly full strength, and was composed of 
reasoned men ; whether this battalion 
was kept at Gibraltar two months after 
the expiration of its year of service at 
that station ; whether, after some delay, 
lihe 3rd Battalion was sent out to Gibral- 
tar to replace the 2nd Battalion, which 
was ordered home ; whether the 3rd Bat- 
talion is now under orders for South 
Africa in place of the 2nd Battalion ; 
whether the 3rd Battalion inchides over 
450 men of less than one year's service 
.and under twenty years of age, and will 
have to be made up to strength by drafts 
to the number of 477 men from the other 
battalions and the Reserve, in addition to 
a draft of 170 men already taken from 
the 2nd Battalion ; what will be the extra 
oxpense incurred by bringing the 2nd 
Battalion home, sending the 3rd Battalion 
out, calling out the Reserve men, and 
sending out the drafts to complete the 
5rd Battalion ; and, what is the reason 
for suddenly ordering the 3rd Battalion 
to proceed to South Africa instead of the 
2nd Battalion. 



The UNDER SECRETARY of 
STATE FOR WAR (Mr. Wyndham, 
Dover) : The 2nd Battalion Grenadier 
Guards was warned to be ready for active 
service in South A,frica in case mobilisa- 
tion should take place while it was at 
Gibraltar. The 3rd Battalion Grenadier 
Guards was sent to Gibraltar in the 
course of ordinary reliefs, prior to mobili- 
sation being ordered. It was always in- 
tended that the battalions of Guards at 
Gibraltar should form part of the 1st 
Army Corps for active service. This rule 
could not have been broken, or the relief 
of the 2nd Grenadiers delayed without 
inflicting an injustice on the 3rd Battalion 
and giving rise to an unfounded belief 
that military operations on a lar^e scale 
were in immediate contemplation. The 
Commander-in-Chief deprecates with- 
drawing members of the Headquarter 
Staff from the important work upon which 
they are now engaged for the time which 
would be necessary in order to verify 
suggestions so numerous and so cate- 
gorical as those submitted by my hon. 
friend. But it is the case that the 3rd 
Battalion will contain rather more Reser- 
vists when made up to war strength than 
would have been the case had mobilisation 
taken place earlier, with the result that 
the 2nd and not the 3rd Battalion would 
have formed part of the 1st Army Corps. 
No extra cost is involved in the substitu- 
tion of the 3rd for the 2nd Battalion. 

CURRAGHMORE RIFLE RANGE. 

Mr. TUITE (Westmeath, N.) : I beg 
to ask the Under Secretary of State for 
War what progress has been made with 
the works for the extension of the rifle 
range at Curraghmore, Mullingar; and 
whether steps will be taken to have the 
range so far completed (by the erection 
of the stop butt and hut) before next 
training as will obviate the necessity of 
sending the Line regiment stationed at 
Mullingar, as also the Westmeath and 
Longford Militia, to Maryborough Heath ; 
can he state the date that has been fixed 
for the completion of the works ; and is 
he aware that at present only two men 
are employed thereon. 

Mr. wyndham : The completion of 
the range at Mullingar depends on the 
acquisition of the necessary land, as to 
which great difficulty is experienced. It 
cannot be stated when the range will be 
ready for use. 

I 2 



235 



Questions. 



{COMMONS} 



Questioms. 



236 



SOUTH AFRICA— PROVISIONS FOR 
BRITISH TROOPS. 

Mr, LOWLES (Shoreditch, Hagger- 
ston) : I beg to ask the Under Secretary 
of State for War whether he is aware 
that Queensland and other of the Aus- 
tralian colonies are prepared to supply in 
large quantities tinned meats and other 
stores ; and whether preference will be 
ffivon to colonial over foreign products 
for the use of British troops in South 
Africa. 

The financial SECRETAEY to 
THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. J. Powell- 
Williams, Birmingham, S.) : By far the 
largest orders for supplies of meat and 
forage have been placed with the Aus- 
tralian colonies ; but where supplies are 
needed within a limited time, we must 
avail ourselves of any market which will 
best meet our requirements. 

OUTRAGE BY BRITISH SOLDIERS IN 

RANGOON. 

Mr. J. H. ROBERTS (Denbighshire, 
W.) : I beg to ask the Secretary of 
State for India whether he will state 
whether any action has been taken by 
the Colonel of the Royal West Kent 
Regiment, or by the military authorities 
in India, with regard to the expulsion 
from that regiment of the men implicated 
in the outrage upon a respectable Bur- 
mese woman, named Mah Goon, at 
Rangoon. 

The SECRETARY of STATE for 
INDIA (Lord G. Hamilton, Middlesex, 
Elaling) : The failure to detect the perpe- 
trators of this outrage is receiving the 
most careful attention and consideration 
of the Government of India and of the 
Commander-in-Chief, and the disciplinary 
measures decided upon will shortly be 
announced. 

Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL (Donegal, 
S.) : Is this regiment still stationed at 
Rangoon ] 

Lord G. HAMILTON : I think it is, 
but it is under orders for Aden. 

Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL : The sooner 
it leaves Rangoon the better. 

INDIA AND THE WAR CHARGES. 

Mu. BUCHANAN (Al)er(lecnsire, E.) : 
I beg to iisk the Secretary of State ^for 



India whether he can undertake that no 
part of the expenses connected with the 
despatch and transport of the forces from 
India to South Africa, or of their pay or 
maintenance during such service, shall be 
borne by the Indian revenues. 

Lord G. HAMILTON: Yes. Her 
Majesty's Government have approved of 
all the charges, both ordinary and extra- 
ordinary, being defrayed out of the 
British Exchequer. 

AUSTRALIAN FEDERATION. 

Sir CHARLES DILKE (Gloucester- 
shire, Forest of Dean) : I beg to ask the 
Secretary of State for the Colonies when 
it is proposed to introduce legislation with 
regard to the Australian Commonwealth 
Bill, the Enabling Bills of various Austra- 
lian Colonies, and the Addresses to the 
Crown of the same Colonies. 

The SECRETARY of STATE tor 
THE COLONIES (Mr. J. Chamberlain, 
Birmingham, W.) : The legislation is in a 
forward state of preparation^ and* it is 
hoped that the Australian Commonwealth 
Act will be passed early next year. 

PACIFIC CABLE. 

Mr. HOGAN (Tipperary, Mid): I 
beg to ask the Secretary of State for the 
Colonies whether he is in a position to 
report any effective progress in the nego- 
tiations for the construction of the Pacific 
cable from Canada to Australia or of the 
proposed alternative cable from South 
Africa to Australia. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : An arrange- 
ment has been arrived at with the 
colonies interested in the Pacific cable 
that the elaboration of the scheme and 
the management of any line that may be 
decided on should be entrusted to a board 
of eight members sitting in London. Her 
Majesty's Government are to be repre- 
sented by three members, including the 
chairman, Canada by two members, and 
Australia and New Zealand by three. 
The Dominion Government have appointed 
the Earl of Aberdeen and LordStrath- 
cona to represent them, and the Austra- 
lian Colonies and New Zealand have 
nominated the Agents-General for New 
South Wales, Victoria, and New Zealand as 
their representatives. I am in communis 
cation with the Chancellor of the &- 



237 Questions. {19 October 1899} Questions. 238 

chequer and the Postmaster-Gkneral as to received confirmation of the grievous and 
the nomination of the representatives of unprovoked maltreatment and wholesale 
Her Majesty's Government, and I hope robbery of imarmed Uitlander civilians 
that the Board will be constituted by armed Boers ; and, if so, whether Her 
and in a position to meet next month Majesty's Grovernment will issue a pro- 
when the Agents-General for Victoria clamation stating their intention to hold 
and New Zealand who are now in the perpetrators of these outrages respon- 
the United States have returned. I am sible for their brutality, 
informed that the Eastern and Eastern ,- ,. ^^^ . xrT^-f^T^T a txt r\ ^i. 
Extension Telegraph Companies have „M^- ."^- S^A^^^?^fJ^i,.9° ^'^^ 
proposed to lay I cable from South Africa llthmstantl instructed the High Corn- 
to Gb^ Australia, but I have not learnt missionertowarnPresidentKrugerthathe 
that the Colonies have yet come to any *"<! ^f Government are expected to pro- 
decision on this proposal. *««* *° 'iy«! *"^ property of all peaceable 

^ ^ persons, Bntisn subjects and others, and 

THE JAMESON RAID. ' !^i" ^ held responsible by Her Majesty's 

». ^iTrTT^m »» -vxT-TT X X , Government for any acts committed con- 

Mr. swift MacInEILL: I beg to t^ary to the usages of civilised people. 

ask the Secretary of State for the /^^ No. 59 and No. 23 of C. 9530.) 

Uolomes whether any steps have been 

token to fix the sum due to the South cASE OF MR. LANHAM. 

f Sy WeMe^rSdthih he , ^IR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BAETLETT : 

expressed himself as willing to submit to J,^®%.*? ^^ *^® i®'''"®*?/^ ""t ^ * 

arbitration; and whether, laving regard *^« ^^^T'®' whether Mr. Lanham, of 

to the outbreak of hostilities between Krugersdorp, was bmtally kicked and 

Great Britain and the Transvaal, the T^}^^^ ^^ *™?^ ^°^^' *"** ^ "'"'^ 

statement in his despatch to Lord Ros- ^^ «* ^^^^ ^"^J""®^- 

mead, dated 10th April, 1897, that the Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : I have no 

British South Africa Company would information beyond what is contained in 

have to make compensation for the Jame- the report from ITie Times correspondent, 

son Raid, still holds good. dated Cape Town, October 11th, and 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: It was P-AUshfi in ^ Jrnes of the 13th, from 

proposed to the Government of the South ";^<=^ '^ appeared that Mr. Lanham was 
African Republic, as the hon. Member is 

aware, that the claim for material damage queENSTOWN POSTMEN-SCALE OF 

should be submitted to arbitration, but WAGES, 

that Government in its reply received by Captain DONELAN (Cork, E.) : I beg 

me on July 29th declined to abandon its ^^ ^^ ^^^^ Secretary to the Treasury, m 

claim to moral and intellectual damage representing the Postmaster-General, 

Steps were being taken to prepare a deed ^^^^j^^^ ^^ ^^^_^^ ^^ ^^^ 

of submission of the njatter to arbitration arrived at concerning the case of the 
{excluding the claim for moral and intel- Q^eenstown postmen, 
lectual damage) and any claim on account ] 

of expenditure in respect of the distur- ; The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to 
bances at Johannesburg in 1895-96 , the TREASURY (Mr. Hanbury, 
which required to be settled in concert j Preston) : The Postmaster-General has 
with the British South Africa Company | decided, with the concurrence of the 
previous to further communication with Treasury, to raise the seals of the town 
the South African Republic, but the pro- i postmen at Queenstown from 16s. rising 
gress of events has prevented further i to 22s. a week to 17s., rising to 24s. a 
action. It is impossible to anticipate the ' week, and the scale of the rural postmen 
situation at the conclusion of hostilities. who work from Queenstown from 168. to 

20s. a week, to 17s. to 22s. a week, to 

THE TREATMENT OF UNARMED date from the 13th inst. 
UITLANDERS. 

Sir ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT i ROYAL COMMISSION ON LOCAL 
<Sheffield, Ecclesall) : I beg to ask the TAXATION-IRISH EVIDENCE. 

Secretary of State for the Colonies j Mr. AUSTIN (Limerick, W.) : I beg 
whether Her Majesty's Government have | to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord 



239 Questions. {COMMONS} Questions. 240 

Lieutenant of Ireland whether it is a fact Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL : And there* 

that the Royal Commission on Local is no appeal. 

Taxation have abandoned their intended 

fitting in Dublin, substituting London MALLAIG RAILWAY EXTENSION. 

instead, thereby depriving the representa- Mr. WEIR (Ross and Cromarty) : I 

tives of the Irish people from giving beg to ask the President of the Board of 

evidence otherwise than by incurring Trade if he will state when the railway 

serious inconvenience through loss of time extension to Mallaig will be completed. 

and heavy expenditure ; and whether, 

under the circumstances, the decision, if The PRESIDENT OF the BOARD OP- 

arrived at, could be reconsidered so as to TRADE (Mr. Ritchie, Croydon) : I will 

meet the requirements of public bodies as inquire and let the hon. Member know. 

expressed by the Limerick County 

Council. RABIES. 

*The SECRETARY of STATE for Mr LQUGH (Islington, W.): I beg to- 
the home DEPARTMENT (Sir M. ^} ^^® President of the Board of Agn^ 
White Ridley, Lancashire, Blackpool) : ^^^H^? ^^^^ ^^« last authenticated case. 
I am informed by the secretary that the of rabies occurred in the Metropolis. And 
Royal Commission on Local Taxation whether he now sees his way to state- 
have reluctantly felt themselves obliged ^^^®^ /« ^^^^ ^^ ,r^® *o revoke the 
by various circumstances to abandon their ^J^®^ ^^r the muzzling of dogs m the 
proposed meeting in Dublin. The wit- Metropolis. 

nesses whom it was intended to hear have -m -oT^r-ciTT^T^xTrri T»i-vA-riTx 

been invited to London, and no com- J^^'^J^^J^lfjlJ'^ J^ ^°t^^ 

plaints have been received from them, all ?T ^^^.^^^TURE (Mr. Long, 

those for whom definite dates have been Livenjool, \Aest Derby); I have under 

fixed having agreed to come. Their conBideratioa proposals .with re^ to the 

travelling and other expenses will be paid y^it^rawaJ ol the muzzling ordeis now 

in accordance with the usual custom on i". force in the Metropolitan Pohce Dis- 

the scale laid down by the Treasury. tnct, and I shall be in a position to make 

■' ''a definite announcement on the subject 

at an early date. The last authenticated 

NATURALISATION OF ALIENS. case of rabies in the Metropolitan District 

Mr. p. a. M'HUGH (Leitrim, N.) : I '^''""^ °" *^« ^'^ J'^^- l^^^. 
beg to ask the Secretary of State for the 

Home Department what are the con- THE EDUCATION OF DUMB CHILDREN. 

ditions on which an alien may become a ^ifiw COGHILL (Stoke-on-Trent) : I 

naturalised citizen of the United King- beg to ask the Vice-President of the Com- 

dom. mittee of Council on Education whether 

he will bring in a Bill this session to 

*SiR M. WHITE RIDLEY : The ordi- amend the Elementary Education (Blind 

nary method of naturalisation in this and Deaf Children) Act, 1893, so that 

country is by a certificate which the where the words " Blind and Deaf " occur 

Secretary of State has power to grant thev shall read "Blind, Deaf, and Dumb.* 

Z\t:!T7oSLt'"7Xtti:^ THE VICE-PRESIDENT of thk COM- 

LtheUarnX'r sinS uSr MHTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION 

the Crown for five yeare out of the last (S|r J. GORST, Cambridge Umvemty):NQ. 

eight ; and (2) intention to reside in the 7^ extremely rare case of a chJd wluch 

United Kingdom or to serve under the i« ^^^^ ^"a* "*'.*. '''^° ^^' "^ P~^«l 

Crown. A fee of £o has to be paid, and, '^^ ''^ *•»« ^'^^ «* 1^* aeaaion. 
before the certificate takes effect, an oath 

of allegiance must be taken. CASE. OF JAMES COLQUHOUN. 

Sir CHARLES CAMERON (Glasgow, 

Mr. swift MacNEILL : Is it not Bridgeton) : I b«g to ask the Loid Advo- 

absolutely within the discretion of the cate whether his attention has been called 

Home Secretary to refuse naturalisation? to the fact that the charges of embezzline 

various sums amounting to JC50,0(K), t» 

♦Sir M. WHITE RIDLEY : Yes. which James Colquhoun pled guilty, and 



241 Questioas. {19 October 1899} Qaestions. 242 

with respect to which, on the 4th inst., he veyed to market by Irish railroads, and 

was sentenced by Lord Trayner to five that the Irish Congested Districts Board 

years' peaal servitude, covered all the have recently reported concerning the 

cases of apparent embezzlement brought fishing industries they are trying to 

to the knowledge of the Public Prosecu- establish that they were unable to bear 

tor up to the date of his trial ; whether, the railway rates ; and, whether, in view 

since the sentence was pronounced upon of these facts vouched for in the Blue 

him, any fresh cases of apparent embezzle- Books, the Irish Government propose to 

ment have come to light; and whether, take £ny practical steps to reform the 

'" *""T of further evidence transpiring Irish railway rates and management. 



The chief SECRETARY FOR 



during Colquhoun's confinement, point- 
ing to his criminal responaibility in con- ^_". . ,,_ ,,, „ „t „ i . 
nation with the di«S«aranee ot »ny IRELAND (Mr. G. W. BAtroni^ Lee<k 
iGliic. of nearly p=^"') '. ', J"°, '7"° t ,k° ,■"" 



suBu comprised in the 

£100,000 for which his firm is civilly 

responsible, and which is not covered by , -r^- r, ■, 

the charges in respect of which he has ■ ^^^^^""^^y,^^^ 

been sentenced, any reason exists to pre- ™'"' " on- rp 

vent his being brought to trial on fresh 

charges. 



*Thk lord advocate (Mr. „. 

Graham Murray, Buteshire) : In answer carriage. It 

to the first paragraph of the question, it Irish Government, 

is the fact that the charges to which ' - ■. 

James Colquhoun pled guilty covered 



ferred to in the first part of the question. 
The observations attributed to the Con- 
be found at 
their recently published 
iieport ; what the Board stated was that 
the fishing industry could not be regarded 
as being so thoroughly established that it 
could safely bear the present rates for 
'le intention of the 
at present advised, 
connection with the question of rail- 
way rates to go beyond the provisions in- 



substantialiy the case of alleged embezzle- serted in the Agricultural and Technical 
ment that Crown counsel felt justified in Instruction Act of last session. 

PAUPER TRANSFERS TO IRELAND. 

Mr. field : I beg to ask the Chief 

Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ire- 

hether 
_.3 passed by the Rathdrum Union 

prisoner had pled guilty to embezzlement protesting against the transference of 
of a sum so substantial as that in question, James Richardson from Sheflield ; 



accepting the plea. The answer to the 

second paragraph is in the negative. In 

answer to the third paragraph, it would 

be impossible, in accordance with the 

practice of the administration of the land whether he ia aware that a resolu- 

Criminal Law in Scotland wher . - . . — - 



to re-try him in respect 
piring charges upon views of the inade- 
quacy of the sentence pronounced. 



after trans- whether he is aware that Richardson 

spent thirty -six years of his life in 

England ; and, whether the Government 

intend to intniduce a measure to amend 

mch 



•Sir CHARLES CAMERON : Was . . . , .. , 

. , , - the Law regulating removals 
any arrangement come to not to re-try | ° * 

him on subsequently -transpiring charges t 



*Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY : The 
arrangement, so far as an arrangement is 
concerned, had reference merely to charges 
up to that date ; but, as I say, it would 



Mr. G. W. BALFOUR : I have re- 
ceived a copy of the resolution referred 
to. It appears that Richardson had been 
absent from Ireland for thirty-six years, 
and that he had only beer 



i_ .-1 ■ 1 .1. .- c - • 1 , ana tnai na nau ouiv oeen uue ween in 

be entirely against the practice of criminal ' gj^^ j^ ^^ Poor Law (ScotUnd) Aet 

!^ln' !^'"" .V" ui". S t^^7 I °f 1898 provided for the ilcquirement of 
person upon other charges of the same „ „„„,„J;„, „, t^.i. „^. ™™™= i™„. 



person upon 

sort transpiring aftenvards. 

IRISH FISHING INDUSTRY. 



a settlement of Irish poor persons living 
in Scotland, but there is no law of settle- 
ment as regards Irish paupers residing i 



.. Tjir-TT^ T I . 1 t ^L- f England. The question raised in the last 
MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the Chief p^rlgraph is one primarily for the con- 



Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant 
Ireland whether he is aware that of the 
fish landed on the English coast 90 per 
cent, was conveyed to market by the 



primarily 
English L 



sideration of the English Local Govern- 
ment Board. 

Mr. flavin {Kerry, N.) : When shall 



roads, whilst of the fish landed on the we have the promised Conference on the 
Irish coast only 30 per cent, was con- subject of the transfer of paupers t 



245 Questions. {COMMONS} Questions. 244 

Mr. G. W. BALFOUK : I will inquire Mr. G. W. BALFOUK : The reply to 

what is being done in the matter. the first paragraph is in the affirmative. 

As regards the question of securing the 

services of a gunboat to prevent these 

TECHNICAL AND PRIMARY EDU- depredations, f am afraid I have nothing 

CATION IN IRELAND. ^o add to the statement made by me in 

Mr. field : I beg to ask the Chief this matter on the 24th July last, when 

Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of the Agricultural and Technical Instnic- 

Ireland whether he can state what steps tion Bill was under discussion. A special 

have been taken to carry into effect the vessel for the purpose is, in the opinion 

recommendations of the Viceregal Com- of the Irish Government, essential for 

mission on technical and primary educa- effective action, and I hope it may be 

tion. found pojfeible to deal more successfully 

with the evil under the provisions of the 

Mr. G. W. BALFOUR : The report Act of last session, 
of the Commissioners of National Educa- 
tion upon the steps to be taken to carry JRISH LUNACY GRANT IN AID. 
into effect the recommendations of the Captain DONELAN : I beg to ask " 

Viceregal Commission has been received ^j,^ (.^-^^ Secretary to the Loid Lieu- 

and IS now under consideration. ^^„^^^ ^^ j^^l^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^ attention 

has been directed to a resolution unani- 

IRISH TRUANT BOYS. ^^'^^ '^7^^, ^/ w ^"""J*^ °' 

r^ T^i^xTT^T A XT T 1 Management of thc Corfc Luuatic Asylum, 

Captain DONELAN : I beg to ^^ 12th September last, protesting against 

ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord the injustice that would be inflicted upon 

Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is ^he ratepavers of the country by taKng 

aware that a resolution has been re- from the Local Taxation Fund, for the 

cently adopted by the Cork School fifteen months ending Slst March, 1899, 

Attendance Committee, pointing out that ^^^ ^ formerly paid out of the Con- 

the present method of fining parents and goHdated Fund as Treasury grant in aid 

guardians, under the Irish Education Act ^^ ^he pauper lunatics, and which should 

of 1892, IS both ineffective and unjust, t^ve been borne by the Consolidated 

and recommending that power should be Yund up to 31st March, 1899, being the 

given to the Court of Summary Junsdic- j^te of the commencement of the Local 

tion to order, m the case of incorrigible Government Act ; and whether any steps 

boys, a certain number of strokes of the ^^^ y^ ^^^^ ^ ^^^^ this grievance, 
birch rod as an alternative to such lines ; 

and whether he will consider the desira- Mr. G. W. BALFOUR : The complaint 

bility of acting upon this recommenda- of the Committee of Management of the 

tion. Cork Lunatic Asylum appears to have 

been made under a misconception. The 

Mr. G. W. BALFOUR : The answer grant has been paid in each year about 

to the first paragraph is in the affirmative, the month of June in aid of the rates of 

Legislation would be necessary to give that financial year, but the amount of it 

effect to the recommendation of the Com- has been measured by the expenditure of 

mittee, and I am not prepared to give a the previous calendar year. That system 

reply to the second paragraph without has only been changed to this extent, that 

further consideration. instead of taking the expenditure of the 

previous calendar year as the measure 

the expenditure of the previous financial 

STEAM TRAWLERS IN IRISH year will in future be taken. This wiU 

^^^^*^^- not lay upon the Local Taxation Fund 

Captain DONELAN : I beg to ask the burden of fifteen months' expenditure 

the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu- as the resolution appears to assume, but 

tenant of Ireland whether he is aware only of twelve months, 
that steam trawlers still continue their 

depredations in Irish waters ; and, CAPTAIN DONELAN : Is it not the 

whether any arrangement has yet been fact that as a result of this arrangement 

made with the Admiralty with a view to the Local Taxation Fund will be saddled 

the prevention of this practice. with expenses incurred previous to the 



Queslim 



{19 October 1899} 



QueduMS. 



246 



date at which the Local Government | The custody of the courthouses 



{Ireland) Act came in force 1 
(No answer was given. 



therefore, as hitherto, vested in the High 
Sheriff, He should give the use of it to 
the county council for the execution of 
MULLINGAR COURTHOUSE. their duties when the same can in his 

, , r^, . r ludement, he done without interference 
to ask the Chief ' :.e .V, L,„i,,-,. 



Mr. TUITE : I beg 



'■"■■ ■•■^'■■•■^- *"Y6 "" "" -t\ '^'"^' With the administration of justice, it is 
Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant oflrelandyg ^^ ^^ prevent the building from 



whether his attention has been drawn to 



being intruded upon, > 



the 



the proceeding at the Mullingar Court- taken of it by any ^i4on or body againat 
house, when the Shenff of Westmeath, u- ■„ „.„-.i.„... l:„ — „„„, jLa f„ .h- 



hia will or without his consent, and in the 



aidedby a body of police forcibly pr^ discharge of that duty he is entitled to 
vented the Coutity Council from asserting ^y ^^„ ^„d to receive the aasiatance 



their ri^t to the control of that building, ^^.^^ ^^^ 

andbyviolencepreventedforaconsiderable , on tliirooeasion 

time public access thereto ; and can he ' 

state uie title of the Statute under which 

the sheriff acted on the occasion, and by 

what authority he obtained the assistance 

of the police. 



from the police wliich was given to him 



IRISH LAND COMMISSION. 

-Mr. MAURICE HEALY (Cork) : I 

beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the 

Lord Lieutenant of Ireland what addi- 

Mr. G. W. BALFOUR : As disputes tion has been made by the Irish Land 

have arisen in Ireland in reference to this Commission to their staff of Assistant 

matter, I think it better to reply to the Commissioners during the present year ; 

-question at some length. The property what the total number of Assistant 



and interest of the Grand Ju 



CommissionerB at present employed la ; 



m ployed — 



whether 



the courthouse in each county was, by the and how they a 

Local Government Act of 1898, trans- on sub-commissions as court valuers, t 

ferred to the county council of that valuers for land purchaiie, or as valuers 

■county. The powers and duties of the under sec. 40 of Land Act of 1896. 

Mr. G. W. BALFOUR: Seventeen 
additional Lay Assistant Commissioners 
have been added Co the staff of the Irish 
Land Commission during the present 
year. Seven Legal and ninety-four Lay 



latter body in reference to those huiidinga 
And the right to use them are, with one 
exception, identical with those of the 
former. The position of the Grand Jury 
as regards courthouses was described by 
Baron Hughes in a judgment in re the 



"The Grand Jury themseli 
a right to nse the Grand Juiy 
acting as Grand Jury, bnt no mure. 
costcdj of the courthoasea is entirely 

in the Hich Sheriff of thr 

Sub-Sheriffhas 



the first Irish -A-Ssistant Commissioners are at present 
e words— employed, together with three supple- 
mental Lay Assistant Commissioners to 
'^"r.Tv^i^ fill vacancies when required. The staff 
mnn. « i o ^j nincty-four Lay Assistant Commis- 
sioners is distributed as follows ; — Sixty- 
employed as sub-commissioners ; 



power but that iieleKated gixteeii as C 



valuers ; and thirteen 



^S;'-';j"it'1b;'otjii't>-S '" ;"»P«»i"8 l.nd purchi cue. ., well 
e puwic." 



The exception referred to is created 
by the words of Section 72, Sub-section 
3 of the Local Government Act, which 
provides that — 

"Eicei>t BO far as the sheriff or the justices 
may retiuire for the administration of jastice, 
or the discharge of hh or their duties, the ase 
of any conrlhouse. ae™ions house, or other 
coanty building under hiii or their custody or 
control, the county council may use [he same 
for the purpose of tlie execntion of their 
dntiea, and ifany difference arises li«twi 



as in cases under the 40th Sectio 
Land Act of 1896. 

SAMOA. 
Mr. HOGAX : I heg to ask the Under 
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs 
whether Her Majesty's Government has 
decided on -any specific course of action 
in reference to the recommendations of 
the Joint Commission with respect to the 
future administration of Samoa 

The FIRST LORD of the TREA- 



oonrt keeper or other officer, such difTereDcJ E.) : In the absence of the Under Secrc- 
shall be determiDcd by the Lord LieatenaBC" tary, I have to say that no decision has 



247 



Questions. 



{COMMONS} 



Questions. 



248. 



yet been arrived at. The matter is 
under consideration of the three Govern- 
ments. I hope to be able to give a reply 
to-morrow. 

ENGLISH CONSULS IN FINLAND. 

Mr. lough : I beg to ask the Under 
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs 
whether the resignation of Mr. Wolff, 
the English Consul at Viborg in Finland, 
was accepted before his letter of explana- 
tion had actually been received ; and, if 
so, what cause was alleged for his 
dismissal; whether eleven out of the 
fourteen English Consuls throughout 
Finland have since resigned as a protest 
against the treatment of Mr. Wolff; and, 
why was such action in his case necessary. 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR: Although 
Mr. Wolff's official letter of explanation 
had not been received when his resigna- 
tion was accepted, a private letter had 
been received from him through Her 
RJajesty*s Consul-General at St. Peters- 
burg, stating the circumstances and in- 
timating a desire to be relieved of his 
Consular post and functions, if it was 
considered that his continuing to hold 
the Vice-Consulate debarred him from 
taking an active part in the political life 
of his native country, Finland. This was 
telegraphed home by Her Majesty's 
Ambassador, on September 13th, and on 
the 15th his Excellency was informed 
that Mr. Wolff's resignation might be 
accepted. It was obviously impossible 
to retain as British Vice-Consul a 
Russian subject who was taking active 
part in a political agitation against the 
Russian Government. If his resignation 
had not been accepted at the time, the 
Russian Government would have been 
within their right in withdraAving their 
recognition of him in his Consular 
capacity. In reply to the second para- 

S:^ph it is a fact that nine other Vice- 
onsuls in Finland have resigned, in con- 
sequence, as they allege, of the impossibility 
of reconciling their position as British 
Consular officers in the Grand Duchy of 
Finland with the discharge of their 
political rights and duties towards their 
native country. 

Mr. weir : I beg to ask the Under 
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if 
he will state how many British Consuls 
in Finland have recently resigned their 
positions, and can he state why they have 
taken this course. 



Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : The answer I 
gave to the hon. Member for West Isling- 
ton covers this. 

Mr. weir : What number of Consula 
have resigned ? 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR: I have no^ 
reason to doubt the statement that eleven. 
out of fourteen have resigned. 

THE CAPE COLONY MINISTRY. 

Mr. swift MacNEILL : I beg ta 
ask the First Lord of the Treasuiy 
whether the action of Mr. Schreiner and 
other members of the Cape Government 
is at present under review, and whether 
the Governor of Cape Colony will be 
allowed to dismiss the Cape Colony 
Cabinet, dissolve the Legislature, and for 
the time being proclaim his own autho- 
rity ; and whether there is any precedent, 
since the establishment of responsible 
government in a colony of the British 
Crown, for such a course. 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : The question 
of the hon. Member appears to be founded 
on newspaper reports, which, as far as Her 
Majesty's Government are aware, have 
no foundation. 

Mr. swift MacNEILL : I founded 
it on reports of the " Y'ellow Press." 

THE VACANT CHANCERY JUDGESHIP. 

Mr. swift MacNEILL : I beg to. 
ask the First Lord of the Treasury 
whether any appointment has yet been 
made to the judgeship in the Chancery 
Division, which has been recently created 
under the provisions of the Judicature 
Act, 1876, in accordance with an Address 
of the Houses of Parliament to the 
Throne; and whether the name of the 
gentleman recommended by the Lord 
Chancellor to fill this office can now be 
notified to the House of Commons. 

Mr. A. J. BALFOUR ; I understand 
that the answer to this question is in the 
negative. 

THE TRANSVAAL WAR— ALLEGED* 
SEDITIOUS SPEECHES BY IRISH 
MEMBERS. 

Mr. SETON-KARR (St. Helens): I 
beg to ask the First Lord of the Tireasunr 
whether the attention of Her Majesty^ 
Government has been directed to the 
speeches made by and letters read icom. 



249 



Business of 



{19 October 1899} 



the House, 



250 



some honourable Members of this House 
at a meeting held in Dublin on 1st 
October last, and reported in the public 
press, in support of a resolution advo- 
cating the cause of the Boers in South 
Africa, now at war with Her Majesty ; 
and in particular to a speech made at the 
said meeting by the honourable Member 
for Kilkenny, containing language appa- 
rently intended to seduce soldiers serving 
in Her Majesty's forces from their duty 
and allegiance to Her Majesty, and to a 
letter written by the honourable Member 
for East Clare, read at the said meeting, 
containing incitement to actively assist 
the enemies of the Queen; and what 
action, if any. Her Majesty's Government 
propose to take in reference to the same. 

Mr. Wn.LI am REDMOND (Clare, E.) : 
As derious reference is made to me in this 
question, perhaps before the right hon. 
Grentleman answers it I may be permitted 
to ask another question, whether it is not 
true that, in suggesting, as I undoubtedly 
did, that a message of sympathy should 
be sent to President Kruger, I was not 
strictly following the example set by Her 
Majesty's grandson, the German Emperor. 

Mr. swift MacNEILL : I desire to 
know, inasmuch as I sent a letter to the 
meeting, which was published in the press, 
whether I am one of the Members re- 
ferred to. 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : I am sure, if 
my hon. friend who puts this question 
had known how anxious the hon. Member 
was to appear in it, he would have taken 
care to gratify the wish. As regards the 
subsidiary question, I have to say that I 
was not aware the hon. Member for 
Clare founded himself on the august 
model he refers to. I may point out that, 
besides other points of difference between 
the hon. Gentleman and the German 
Emperor, his Majesty is not a British 
subject, or a Member of this House. 

Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND : He is a 
Colonel in your Army. 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : As regards the 
substance of the question of my hon. 
friend, I have no reason to believe the 
statements in it are inaccurate. If my 
memory serves me right, support — I do 
not know whether I ought to call it 
moral support — of a similar character has 



invariably been forwarded from the samo 
quarter to those engaged in hostility to 
Her Majesty's Government, irrespective 
of creed, race, theatre of operations, or 
cause of quarrel. I have, however, no 
ground for thinking that this support was 
ever regarded as of importance by the 
persons to whom it was offered, and I 
certainly advise the House of Commons 
to take a similar view of this incident. 



BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. 

Mr. WILLIAM REDMOND : I beg 
to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if 
he will state the exact order of business 
after the Address has been disposed of. 

Mr. STEADMAN (Tower Hamlets, 
Stepney) : I beg to ask the First Lord of 
the Treasury, in the event of the Govern- 
ment legislative programme not being 
satisfactory on the question of the 
housing of the working classes, will he 
give an opportunity for that matter to be 
discussed. 

Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN 

(Stirling Burghs) : I beg to ask the First 
Lord of the Treasury whether he can 
now state to the House the intention of 
the Government with regard to the 
method of closing the present sittings of 
Parliament. 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : Perhaps the 
House will permit me to make a general 
statement on this subject. Those who 
were present at yesterday's debate, or 
rather, I should say, yesterday's conver- 
sation at question time, are aware that 
considerable objection was taken to the 
Government's following the precedents of 
1878 and 1884 in bringing forward now 
a Queen's Speech which did not give any 
foreshadowing of the legislative work of 
the session, and thereby depriving hon. 
Gentlemen of an opportunity of criticis- 
ing that programme and moving Amend- 
ments and raising discussions. I depart 
from the precedent with some reluctance^ 
But 1 quite recognise that it is a hardship 
on hon. Gentlemen because there happens 
to be a crisis in October that they should 
be deprived of their ordinary and natural 
opportunity for discussing matters in- 
teresting to them and their constituents, 
in February. I am anxious to meet that 
not illegitimate demand in the best way 



251 



Biisiness of 



{COMxMONS} 



the Home, 



252 



I can. There were two suggestions 
thrown out yesterday. One was that a 
certain number of days at the beginning 
x)f next session should be turned into 
Tuesdays — the House will understand 
:what 1 mean by that phrase — which 
should be given up to abstract discussions 
on resolutions similar in character to 
those which would have been moved as 
Amendments to the Queen's Speech in 
the ordinary course. The other sugges- 
tion was that there should be two 
sessions. 

Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN : 
A prorogation. 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR : Yes, proroga- 
tion at the end of our autumnal work and 
a new session next year. On the whole, 
2& between these two alternatives, we are 
clear that the second is preferable. I do 
not think anything would be gained by 
the somewhat irregular proceeding of 
<3rowding three or four private Members' 
nights, one after another, and I think the 
discussion should take place upon a 
<3ueen's Speech or something equivalent. 
Let me say that the matter is not quite 
so simple as it appears at first sight, for 
the reason that if we terminate the ses- 
sion by prorogation now we stultify one 
or two Bills at least which were to come 
into operation "at the end of next session," 
it being understood when those Bills were 
passed that the end of next session meant 
next August instead of this November. 
It will be necessary, therefore, if 
that plan is adopted, to pass a 
Bill explaining in general terms that 
by "this session " is meant next session. 
That is a Parliamentary expedient which 
ought not to be beyond our powers, al- 
though it may involve some difficulties in 
drafting. Now, Sir, if we adopt the course 
which 1 understand meets with favour on 
both sides we are starting a new pre- 
cedent, and I am anxious, in the interests 
of our successors, that the nature of that 
precedent should be perfectly clearly on 
record. The precedent I take not to be 
that when the House meets in the autumn 
there must necessarily be a second 
Queen's Speech in the spring, but that 
when the House meets in the autumn for 
a specific subject and consents to limit the 
debate on the Address to that subject, 
then and then alone it should be the recog- 
nised and proper procedure that there 
should be a second Queen's Speech in the 

Mr, A. J. Balfour. 



spring following. I would assent, there- 
fore, to the proposal made, on that 
honourable understanding between the 
two sides of the House — namely, that we 
confine the debate on the Queen's 
Speech this year to the specific matter 
aUuded to in the Queen's Speech, 
and in exchange for that — I will not say 
advantage to the Gk)vemment, bat ad- 
vantage to the general convenience of the 
House — that the discussions which would 
naturally arise on a Queen's Speech should 
be postponed by general consent to next 
year. I would also ask, in exchange for 
the arrangement I have indicated, that 
it shall be understood that the small 
Bill which I think it will be neces- 
sary to introduce shall pass without any 
discussion. I must be permitted to make 
this caveaiy that if I fina that constitution- 
ally there is some objection to a proro- 
gation, I must be permitted to come to 
the House and exphun the matter a^ain. 
But in any case the opportunity wiU be 
given next spring for the discussion of 
the legislative proposals of the Gk)vem- 
ment and for raising any questions that 
would be in order in the debate upon the 
Address in reply to the Queen's Speech. 
I hope this arrangement will be satis- 
factory to the House. It only remains 
for me to say that I understand the 
business we have to transact before we 
separate — before we, I hope, prorogue — 
will be to terminate the proceedings upon 
the Queen's Speech — ana I trust I am not 
too sanguine when I express a hope that 
we may do that to-nieht — to answer Her 
Majesty's gracious Message about the 
Militia, to deal with the Army Estimates 
and with the financial proposals of the 
Chancellor of the Exchequer, to pass the 
small formal Bill the character of which I 
have already explained, and to pass the 
Appropriation Bill I propose to take 
this business, so far as I can see at present, 
in the order named, and I think if the 
House sets to work upon this business in 
the spirit which has animated our pro- 
ceedings up to the present time there is 
no reason why we should not terminate 
this necessary work in a few days. 

Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN : 
. It would be irre^lar, I suppose, for me 
even to acknowledge the spirit with which 
the right hon. Gentleman has met the 
observations that were made from these 
benches yesterday, and to say that we 
, accept with proper feeling the arrangement 



253 Address in Ansmr to (19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 25€ 

he proposes. I rise only to aak one little 
question in reference to business, and that 
is whether the right hon. Gontloman pro- 
poaes to take the reply to the Message in 
reference to the Militia tonight. It would 
appear rather better to put it off to 
another day. It would probably not 
occupy much time, but 1 believe on a 
former occasion the point was raised — I 
have looked it up, and the desire was 
expressed that the House should have the 
opportunity of fully apprehending the 
nature of what was proposed. Perhaps 
the right hon. Gentleman would consent 
to put it off to to-morrow. 



Mr. a. J. BALFOUR: I am quite 
ready to put it off to to-morrow. I may 
make this observation. The calling out 
of the Militia is part of the general 
military policy, and that general 
military policy will naturally come up on 
the discussion of Vote A in the Estimates, 
which were circulated yesterday, I think, 
and indeed upon some of the other Votes. 
I rather hope the discussion upon the 
Message from Her Majesty may be cut 
down to veiy narrow limits, and that we 
may take the important issues involved 
in the discussion of the Estimates. In 
any case, I will not take the Message 
to-night. 

Mr. JAMES LOWTHER (Kent, 
Thanet) : Arising out of the question as 
to the arrangement of business, may I 
suggest that questions should commence 
earlier than half -past three 1 

Mr. a. J. BALFOUR: I am quite 
prepared for that, and if it be in order 
will to-morrow propose that questions be 
called at a quarter-past three. I do not 
think that would be inconvenient either 
to the officers of the House or to my 
colleagues. 

Sir J. FERGUSSON (Manchester, 
N.E.) : Can the right hon. Gentleman 
state, without inconvenience, whether I am 
right in supposing that it is only in- 
tended to ca\\ cut a certain number of 
Militia regiments for special purposes 7 

Mr. A. J. BALFOUR: This question 

bad better be raised in the debate on the 

B or discussion of the Votes. 



Third Day's Debate. 

Order read, for resuming Adjourned 
Debate on Amendment proposed [18th 
October] to Main Question [17th October], 
"That an humble Address be presenter 
to Her Majesty, as followeth :— 

" Most Gracious Sovereign, 
" We, Your Majesty's moat dutiful and 
loyal subjects, the Commons of th* 
United Kingdom of Great Britain and 
Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg 
leave to offer our humble thanks to Your' 
Majesty for the Gracious Speech which 
Your Majesty has addressed to both 
Houses of Parliament. "^(7(ip(rt»n Sir 
Alexander A eland-Hood.) 

And which Amendment was,, at the 
end of the Question, to add the words — 

'' Bat we hambly represent to your MbjeatjF 
oar strong disapproval of the conduct of tbe 
negotiatioDS with the GovemmeDt of the- 
Tranavaal which have involved as in boatilities 
with the two South African RepaUics."— ( JTr. 
Stanhope.) 

Question again proposed— "Thatthose 
words be there added." 

The secretary of STATE for- 
TUE COLONIES (Mr. J. Chamber- 
lain, Birmingham, W.) : I rise, Sir,. 
with a feeling of satisfaction and 
almost of relief at fioing able now tO' 
reply to the accusations and insinuations 
which have been made against Her 
Majesty's Government during the past 
few months, and I am especially glad 
that the arraignment which I have to 
answer has been presented to the House 
and the country in the dignified speech 
of the right hon. Gentleman the Member 
for West Monmouth. I have already 
said that to the tone and substance of 
that speech I could not possibly take any 
exception, and if he will permit me to say 
so, as one who has fought with him as 
well as against him, I think the speech 
I was worthy of him and of the occasion. 
I I think he is in many particulars wrong,. 
I do not agree with many of his conclu- 
sions and many of his inferences, and I 
, am even sanguine enough to suppose that 
' when he has neard the explanations I shall 
; have to give he himself will be of opinion 
I that in some respects at all events he has 
; been unjust to Her Majesty's Govern- 
ment. The right hon. Gentleman began: 
Third Day. 



255 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech, 



256 



liis speech by remarking that it was a 
vulgar notion held outside the House of 
Commons that it would be unpatriotic, 
under existing circumstances, to discuss 
the past policy of Her Majesty's Govern- 
ment. I think the right hon. Gentleman 
cannot have been present in the House 
when it was addressed by the Leader of 
the Opposition, because the doctrine to 
which the right hon. Gentleman takes 
exception as a vulgar notion held outside 
the House was the doctrine seriously put 
forward by the Leader of the Opposition, 
who said in terms and in words I am pre- 
pared to quote that he thought — though 
he differed, or thought he might differ, 
from the policy of the Government — no 
detailed criticism of it at the present 
time could be undertaken by himself 
or his friends. 

Sir H. CAMPBELL - BANNERM an 

(tfStirling Burghs) : Perhaps the right hon. 
Gentleman will allow me to say that I 
expressly did not repudiate the right of 
any patriotic man to criticise in detail 
the conduct of Her Majesty's Govern- 
ment, but I said that in the circumstances 
of the day upon which I was speaking, it 
did not appear to me opportune or desir- 
able that I should undertake the duty. I 
reserved then, as I reserve now, a perfect 
right of criticism. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : I do not 
understand what there is in my remarks 
of which the right hon. Gentleman com- 
plains. I do not for a moment say that 
the right hon. Gentleman had any power 
to bind his followers from the exercise of 
the right, but he advised them not to 
exercise it. 

Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN : 
I did not advise anybody. The right hon. 
Gentleman must not, when he professes to 
quote me, impute to me things I did not 
say. He must not attribute to me a 
course of thought or words that are not 
mine. I never advised my followers not 
to do this. I was speaking for myself, 
and I said I did not think it was an oppor- 
tune moment for me to undertake the 
task of detailed criticism. That I said, 
and no more, and I ask the right hon. 
Gentleman to confine himself to that fact. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I accept 

most fully the statement of the right hon. 

• Gentleman. I regret exceedingly that I 

Mr. J, Clmmherlain. 



should have raised any heat ; it was not 
my intention to do so. I assure the 
right hon. Gentleman that I had no 
intention whatever of doing so, and I take 
it, therefore, exactly as he has said. The 
right hon. Gentleman the Member for 
^lonmouth thinks, rightly as I believe, 
that he is fully entitled to discuss the 
past policy of the Government ; he thinks 
that this is an opportune moment for 
such discussion, as we also think. The 
right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the 
Opposition does not think it is. I have 
said that I think the right hon. Gentle- 
man the Member for Monmouth is per- 
fectly correct in the view which he has 
taken. I venture to say — I hope this is 
not offensive — that the reasons which the 
right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the 
Opposition gave for his own abstention 
were bad ones, and I have got also this 
to say, that, whatever he may have 
intended on the subject, his actual prac- 
tice differed altogether from the principles 
that he laid down. It is quite true that 
he did not engage in detailed criticism 
cf the conduct of the Government — 
that is to say, he ^ave no proof of his 
allegations, he laid no foundation for 
his case, but he insinuated, he alleged in 
vague and general terms, many things 
against the Government which I am 
anxious to discuss with him in the most 
courteous, and, I hope, friendly way. 
Now, the right hon. Gentleman the 
Leader of the Opposition must see thisr - 
that he cannot have it in both ways. He 
has spoken frequently in the country 
during the last three months ; he spoke 
to us the other day upon the Address ; 
but he cannot claim credit for his 
patriotism in avoiding everything which 
could by any possibility embarrass the 
Government in the pursuit of a difficult 
task, and at the same time continue to 
make these insinuations, to go about the 
country with a portentous whisper of — 
" I could an' I would," " hinting a 
fault and hesitating dulike." Those 
things are inconsistent, and for my part I 
confess I prefer the open opposition, 
expressed in the most courteous and 
moderate terms, of the right hon. Gentle- 
man the Member for Monmouth to 
these vague charges which have been 
so frequently in the mouth of the 
Leader of the Opposition. Just let me 
point out this to the House : — Supposing 
that patriotism did require silence upon 
this occasion, who would be the greatest 



257 



Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 258 



sufferer ? Her Majesty's Government *? 
Why, Sir, for months past we have been 
the mark not only of the vague charges 
of the right hon. Gentleman, but of the 
most unmeasured abuse, the most gro- 
tesque misrepresentation, and then are we 
to be told now that it is patriotic to make 
these accusations and these misrepresenta- 
tions, but that it is unpatriotic to bring 
them to the test of a reply in this House, 
where those who are accused are still 
able to speak for themselves ? I should 
be very sorry if I thought for a moment 
that the view which the right hon. Gentle- 
man took of the duty of the House in this 
matter were correct. I do not. I think 
he misapprehended his own position. Sir, 
the time is past when anything that can 
be said in this House will embarrass Her 
Majesty's Government. The issues are 
out of the hands of the politician. 
There was a time, I admit, when 
speeches such as have been made 
in the country were calculated to 
embarrass the Government, and did 
embarrass the Government, when the 
right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the 
Opposition reiterated — not once alone — 
but reiterated down even to the last few 
weeks, I might almost say the last few 
days, his statement that there was no 
need for military preparations, that there 
was no cause for the use of force, and 
that we were unnecessarily provoking a 
conflict — that was a hint, not an actual 
fitatement. There was a time when there 
were others who argued the cause of the 
Boers with greater success and greater 
eloquence than their own advocates, 
when they succeeded, to their own satis- 
faction at any rate, in proving that their 
country was entirely in the wrong. I 
have not the least doubt that they were 
acting under a sense of conscientious con- 
viction — that they were acting with a 
sense of full responsibility ; but if they 
had any common-sense or intelligence 
they could not have doubted for a moment 
that the words which they felt it their 
duty to speak, the statements which they 
considered themselves bound to make, 
were calculated to encourage President 
Kruger in his resistance, and to embarrass 
Her Majesty's Gt)vernment in the exercise 
of those most difficult and critical functions 
in which we have been engaged for so con- 
siderable a period. I say that all these con- 
siderations may now be put aside. There 
is an open field ; the fortune of war, what- 
ever it may be, will not be affected by 



I our debate, and now is the time when our 
' past conduct, everything we have done or 
I left undone, the mistakes we have made, 
may be fairly brought to the test of the 
opinion and judgment of this House, may 
be usefully as well as fully discussed. 
Therefore I say in the first instance, and 
on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, 
that we welcome this Amendment ; it is a 
wide and broad Amendment which lays 
open foi: consideration everything which 
has happened during the last three 
months, or even beyond that time. We 
welcome the Amendment, we welcome all 
hon esc and honourable criticism. I wish 
I could apply those epithets to the speech 
of the mover of the Amendment. 

. *Mr. STANHOPE (Burnley) : Mr. 
Speaker, I rise to a point of order. The 
right hon. Gentleman has spoken of a 
speech which I made last night, in which 
I thought fit, and conscientiously thought 
fit, to arraign his conduct in the presence 
of this House and of the country — he has 
spoken of my criticism as being dis- 
honourable and dishonest. I have to ask 
you, !Mr. Speaker, whether terms of that 
sort can be applied to a Member of this 
House ? 

*Mr. speaker : The language used 
by the right hon. Gentleman went some- 
what beyond the ordinary courtesy of 
debate. 

^ Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : I bow, Mr. 
Speaker, ^vith all respect to your decision, 
and withdraw anything to which you 
take exception. The House knows 
very well — those who were present yes- 
terday heard the speech to which I have 
referred, and they will appreciate its tone, 
its temper, and its animus. It is a speech, 
I think, such as has been rarely heard in 
this House. The tone of it is unusual in 
our debates ; especially, I think, is it in- 
consistent with the gravity of what, after 
all, may be considered to be a momentous 
occasion. I am at a loss to explain it. I 
can only explain it, if that be an explana- 
tion, by a reference to an incident which 
took place a few weeks ago in the Raad 
of the South African Republic. There 
was a member of that Raad, Mr. 
Longmann, who was called to order 
by his President for intemperate 
language, but he, unlike Members of 
this House, was unwilling to be bound 
by the decision of the Chair, and insisted 
upon what he called his right to vent his 

Third Day. 



259 



Address in Answer to 



{COMMONS} 



the Queen's Speech. 260 



opinion and to insult the Secretary of 
State for the Colonies. It seems to me 
that in carrying out a somewhat similar 
intention the hon. Member went very far. 

*Mr. STANHOPE: I was not caUed 
to order. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : He even 
raked up the ashes of the inquiry of the 
South Africa Committee into the Jameson 
Raid. I thought, as far as I am concerned, 
that that discussion was necessarily closed 
by the Report of the Committee which 
was appointed by this House. That Com- 
mittee contained Members from both 
sides of the House, whose honour and 
integrity and impartiality nobody could 
be found to dispute. I presented myself 
for examination to that Committee 

An Hon. Member : Not for cross-ex- 
amination. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I told 
them what I knew. The hon. Mem- 
ber for Burnley is disposed to dis- 
pute my words. I hope, even in the 
passion of debates in this House, for the 
honour of the House, that there will be 
very few Members on his own side who 
will sympathise with him. The hon. 
Member went on to challenge me to pro- 
duce a letter which I wrote to Mr. 
Hawkesley, the solicitor of the Chartered 
Company, some time after the Raid, which 
he says he challenged me to produce on a 
previous occasion. Sir, what right has 
he to send a challenge to me 1 Is he my 
judge 1 I am not disposed to gratify his 
spiteful curiosity. I have no doubt that 
he intends to found, or he thinks that he 
may l>e able to found, upon that refusal a 
continuation of the campaign of slander 
which has been going on for some time past. 
He is mistaken ; I will not reply to his 
challenge, I will not produce to him the 
letter. But I will tell the right hon. 
Gentleman that, like many other persons 
who take up the task of an amateur de- 
tective, he has found a mare's nest. And 
if the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of 
the Opposition, or the right hon. Gentle- 
man the Member for 3lonmouth, who 
were both upon the committee — if either 
of those gentlemen will express a desire 
or a wish, or any interest in this letter, I 
will produce it to them with the CTcatest 
of pleasure. They are not only honour- 
able Members, they are honourable men. 

Mr, J, Chamberlain, 



*Mr, STANHOPE : Mr. Speaker, I rise 
to order. On a previous occasion the 
right hon. Grentleman made use of an ex- 
pression which you said was going beyond 
the ordinary limits of debate and the 
ordinary practice of this House. The 
right hon. Gentleman, in defiance ol that 
ruling, is now repeating the offence. I 
ask your opinion upon it, and appeal to 
you to say whether the right hon. Gentle- 
man is not now speaking in contravention 
of your ruling f 

♦Mr. speaker : I cannot see that the 
right hon. Gentleman is using language 
which imputes dishonourable conduct to 
the hon. Member. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Then the 
hon. Member went on to speak (^ the South 
African League. He said it was an 
organisation which was subsidised by 
Jewish and other capitalists, and whick 
employed hundreds of thousands of 
pounds to poison the minds of the people 
in this country and in South Africa. Now, 
sir, the hon. Member may know more <rf 
the South African League than I do ; but, 
as far as I know, I can say I do not know 
the name of a single person who belongs 
to it, and to my knowledge I have never 
been in copamunication with any member 
of the League. I have been injformed by 
Sir Alfred Milner — I think it appears in 
the Blue Book — that the organisation has 
received very little pecuniary assistance, 
that the largest subscription did not 
exceed a sum of £50, and that» in fact, 
from what I have heard, it is one of the 
poorest and, at the same time, most 
representative political organisations 
which has ever l)een established. When 
the hon. Mem))er talks about this League 
or association poisoning the wells of public 
opinion, why, sir, I call to mind what 
happened in another country a little while 
a^o, and I think of General Mercier and 
his Dreyfus syndicate. I noticed that my 
hon. friend the Mem1)er for Durham also 
referred to the League with a different pur- 
pose. He said that the objectsof the League 
were opposed to and inconsistent with 
the policy of Her Majesty's Government, 
and he asked why we did not repudiate 
it. Surely my hon. friend, who has had 
great political experience, could not have 
addressed that question seriously to the 
Government. What is the position of 
this League f It is a political association ; 
the Government conducted its negotia- 



261 Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech, 262 

tions without the assistance of leagues or | millionaire though he be, to face a danger 
associations, and made proposals for re- ; greater than ordinary in the defence 
form in the Transvaal, ancl this League of Kimberley. Now I come to the last 
4kppears to have thought that the proposals ' point of the hon. Member for Burnley, 
did not go far enough for the purpose, | The hon. Member finally alleges a 
and they made representations to Sir conspiracy. Against whom 1 Well, Sir, 
Alfred Milner to that effect. They had ' I think I noticed that while he was 
a perfect right to make those representa- loudly cheered by a few Members of 
tions, and why on earth are we to be the House while attacking the Colonial 
called upon to repudiate an association j Secretary, there was a marked coolness 
unth which we have absolutely nothing when he beean to attack Sir Alfred Milner, 
'whatever to do, with which we have no | a distinguished public servant ; and when 
official communication, but whose main he accused Sir Alfred Milner, and accused 

objects, so far as the principles are con- me, of being in a conspiracy 

4^med, are undoubtedly identical with „.. om * xttt/m^t.^ t jj ^ ^i. 
our own ? Let me put to my hon. friend *^}^' STANHOPE : I did not use the 
a case. Suppose this Cxovernment next | ^^^^^ conspiracy at all. What I imputed 
year should bring forward a project for ! ^^o Sir Alfred Milner was that they had 
redistribution ; suppose the Liberal i determined in their own mmd some 
Unionist Association of Durham or the ^^^^^^ ^S? ^^^^^f ^*« the only solu- 
Ck)nBervative Federation in this county ^J^^ f this difficulty, and that they, 
should consider that that project was therefore, made up their mind to that. 
inadequate and should make a represen- ^^^ j CHAMBERLAIN : If that was 
tation to Lord Salisbury to that effect, and ; ^^^ statement which the hon. Member 
put forward a scheme which went much ^^^d^, there is no Parliamentary language 
further— well. Sir, I do not suppose that i^ which I can express my opinion of it. 
the settled decision of the Government gj^^ ^o have made such a charge against 
would be m the least altered by that ) ^ Minister— a responsible Minister of the 
resolution or protest, but surely Crown— and against one of the most dis- 
nobody in their senses would call tinguished servants of the Crown— to 
wpon the Government to repudiate the , ^ave made such a charge, and to accuse 
Association with whose general conclusions ^^^^ ^f ^cts for which, if they were 
they might have a certain amount of ^ g^ii^y, impeachment would be too good 
sympathy. Sm, so far as this league is ' J^^ ^j^em, and to make that without proof 
concerned I hardly understand the object _ig ^^^ ^ght. Now, Sir— I am speaking 
of the hon. Member m introducing it at j^ the recollection of the House— what 
All into this discussion. The hon. Member pp^^f ^y ^he hon. Member give of 
for Burnley went on to invent an ; ^his monstrous charge 1 Not one scrap, 
imaginary collaboration between Mr. ^ot one iota, not one reference, not 
Ithodes and myself, bir, I think I have ^ne fact, not one quotation. The whole 
said before in this House, at all events I ^j^jng ^^s given to the House as an 
say it now, that from the tune of the allegation upon his heart and conscience. 
[Raid I have had no communication, either 

direct or indirect, with Mr. Khodes on *Mr. STANHOPE : " Upon my heart 
Any subject connected with South African and conscience " the allegation was an 
policy. He has never spoken to me about ; allegation which had been made in the 
it ; I have never spoken to him. I have case of another man — not so distinguished 
seen him about the Cape to Cairo Railway, | as himself, of course — a great statesman. 
About the progre^ of Rhodesia ; but never ^^^^ SPEAKER : Order, order ! The 
have we touched upon or had any com- I ^^^ ^u^\,^r has no right to interrupt 
mumcation whatever with regard to the ^j^^ ^^^ hon. Gentleman merely for the 
subject which IS now under consideration. f^ ^^ ^^ing a reply or retort. 

So far as I know — my knowledge is de- '^ ^ o r ^ 

rived from the newspapers — until very Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Mr. Speaker, N^ , 
recently, when he took his place in the ' I have done with the hon. Gentleman, ^ **' 
Cape House of Assembly, Mr. Ehodes and I turn with the greatest satisfaction 
Jias been absolutely quiet, has remained ' from his personalities, to which I have 
Absolutely aloof from the politics of South ; been forced to reply, to the speech of the 
Africa ; and the only prominent part he right hon. Gentleman the Member for 
lias taken is when he went recently, \ West MonmoutL Now, Sir, let me say 

VOL. LXXVII. .[Fourth Skkirs.] i K Third Day. 



263 JdJress in Ansurer to {COMMONS} 



the Quten^s Speech. 



264 



on the part of the Government that we 
welcome his honest criticism. Hithertc, 
the difficulty ^'ith which we have had to 
deal is that all criticism has been vague 
and undefined, that the grounds of the 
statements which have been made in 
reference to our policy have been 
hitherto concealed. Until the speech of 
the right hon. Gentleman it appeared to 
be in the minds of many members of the 
Opposition that in some way or other, at 
some time, by some act of omission 
or of commission which has not been 
explained, at some period of the nego- 
tiations, we have interfered in such a 
way as to prevent a peaceful settle- 
ment which might otherwise have been 
secured. Well^ now. Sir, I am going to 
make an admission. I am inclined to 
complain — or perhaps I should not say 
complain — of the right hon. Gentleman, 
who docs, I think, occasionally — unin- 
tentionally, of course, but still rather 
unfairly — twist former utterances of his 
opponents in order to prove their sup- 
posed or real inconsistency. I will 
give an illustration of that in 
the speech of the right hon. 
Gentleman. He referred to the speech I 
made on May 6, 1896 — a speech whi^h has 
never been corrected by me — and I do not 
know, therefore, whether any words have 
been omitted. The right hon. Gentle- 
man knows what a difterence the omission 
of a word may make, and I have for long 
found no time to correct my speeches. 
But, at all events, take the speech as it 
appears in Hansard. It was a speech 
in which I expressed my opinion that it 
would be impolitic, even immoral, to go 
to war with the Transvaal in order to en- 
force certain internal reforms. Well, Sir, 
the introduction of a single word would 
make the meaning clear. But what I 
complain of is that a particular passage 
like that is taken without reference to the 
circumstances under which the speech is 
delivered or to the general tone of the 
speech. I appeal to the House to judge 
even mo fairly. Is it likely that I should 
have over intended to say, even in May, 
1896, that it would always be immoral, 
that it would always be impossil^le, that it 
would always bo impolitic to interfere in 
tho internal affairs of the Transvaal 1 
What I meant then, and what I say now, 
is that, unless the Conventions are broken, 
we have no claim under the Conventions 
for anv interference in the internal aftairs 

ft 

of tho Transvaal. But if our fellow -sub- 
il/r. /. Chamberlain, 



jects are injured by the conduct of the 
internal affairs of the South African Re- 
public, that gives us at once the right of 
interference, even under international 
law, which is entirely independent of all 
Conventions, of the suzerainty, or of any 
other points of dispute. I am, 
led to make this little protest at 
this stage because I am now going to 
make an admission which also may be 
construed as inconsistent with what I 
have said before. The argument on the 
other side has been that if we had done 
something different peace might have 
been preserved. Well, Sir, I say that, 
having most carefully considered all the 
circumstances in the light of the most 
recent events — in the light of the ultima- 
tum and in the light of the recent speeches 
of President Kruger and others — I have 
now come to the conclusion that war was 
always inevitable. It is a conclusion at 
which I have only recently and most 
reluctantly arrived. Sir, the right hon. Gen- 
tleman, or any one else, can tind passages 
at different times in the despatches which 
were only the other day laid upon the 
Table of the House in which I have con- 
tinued to be — I will not say sanguine,, 
but, at all events, in which I have con- 
tinued to express hope of peace. I ex- 
pressed such hopes of peace when the 
House broke up at the end of last session. 
From the first day I came into office I 
hoped for peace ; I strove for peace. At 
that time, and at an earlier period, down 
even to the most recent period, I have 
believed in peace. But do let us all look 
at tho matter in the new light in which it- 
is now presented to us. My hon. friend 
the Member for Durham expresded in 
eloquent terms his additional regret that,. 
not only were we at war, but that we had 
come to war after being apparently so- 
near to peace. The Leader of the Opposi- 
tion spoke in the same sense, and the 
right hon. Member for West Monmouth 
followed him on the same line. Sir, have 
we ever been near peace 1 We have 
appeared to be near peace ; reason has 
been given to us to make us think 
that we were near it. But is it not. 
tnie, when we come to look at the 
whole situation, that always there have 
been cardinal differences ; that there have 
been things which it was essential for ub 
to demana and to obtain ; and that those 
things President Kruger and his friends 
and advisers have always been determined. 
not to grant ? I claim these quotations. 



265 Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 266 



from my past speeches upon this subject 
as confirmation of what 1 again emphati- 
cally declare to the House — that from 
first to last in these negotiations, while I 
have put first in my mind the deter- 
mination at all costs to secure justice 
for British subjects, and to secure 
the paramountcy (or call it what you will) 
of this country — that is not the immediate 
subject of discussion — while I have done 
that, within these limits I have striven 
to the very best of my poor ability to 
secure a peaceful settlement. When I 
have been in doubt as to President 
Kruger's intentions, I have given him the 
benefit of the doubt. I am taunted with 
having spoken of his magnanimity. I 
desired to believe him magnanimous. 
Some great man — Goethe, I think — said 
that if you wish a man to be what you 
want him to be, you must express your 
belief that he is so. I convinced 
myself, I satisfied myself, that 
there were indications of magnanimity 
which I rejoiced to acknowledge. Well, 
Sir, I may have erred. You may ridicule 
my foresight ; you may contemn my 
moderation ; but you cannot deny that 
all this points to my intimate and anxious 
desire for that peaceful settlement which 
we have failed to secure. Before I 
go in detail into the points raised by the 
right hon. Gentleman, let us see — and 
this is the pleasantest task in which any 
man in my position can engage — how far 
we are agreed. We are agreed on the 
whole — but for some insignificant excep- 
tions, who will themselves admit that they 
do not carry much representative weight 
at the present time — as to the policy and 
duty of the Government in the present 
situation. After that extraordinary ulti- 
matum which was addressed to the Queen 
and the Government it is impossible, as 
the right hon. Member for West Mon- 
mouth observed, for Her Majesty's 
Government to do anything other than to 
prosecute with all energy the war which 
has been thrust upon us, and to carry it 
as quickly as possible to a successful 
issue. But our agreement does not cease 
there ; that is only the present situa- 
tion. When hon. Members opposite come 
to consider the whole subject they will 
be surprised to find how trifling really 
are the differences between us. At all 
events, I can show to you that we are 
absolutely agreed as to the objects of the 
policy. There is no doubt about that. 
It is true that the Leader of the Opposi- 



tion did say in a speech the other day — 
and I think it was rather a hasty expres- 
sion — that the man in the street did not 
know what the cause of the war was. 
Well, Sir, the man in the street really is 
wiser than the right hon. Gentleman 
thought him to be. With that great 
instinct of the British people in all times 
of crisis, the man in the street has put 
aside technicalities and legal subtleties 
and has gone to the root of the question. 
He knows perfectly well that we are 
going to war in defence of principles — 
the principles upon which this Empire 
has been founded and upon which alone 
it can exist. What are those principles t 
I do not think that anyone — however 
extreme a view he may take of this par- 
ticular war, and however much he may 
condemn and criticise the policy of her 
Majesty's Government — will dispute 
what I am going to say. The 
first principle is this — that if we 
are to maintain our position in regard to 
other nations, if we are to maintain our 
existence as a great Power in South 
Africa, we are bound to show that we 
are both willing and able to protect 
British subjects everywhere when they 
are made to suffer from oppression and 
injustice. This is especially incumbent 
upon us in the present case, because 
equality was promised between the two 
white races by President Kruger ; be- 
cause that equality was the foundation of 
the negotiations upon which the inde- 
pendence of the Transvaal was conceded ; 
and, further, that equality was promised 
to British subjects in South Africa by Mr. 
Gladstone, the head of the Government 
which made the Convention. That is the 
first principle. It is a principle which 
prevails always and everywhere, and in 
every difference which we may have with 
another country; but it prevails with 
special force and emphasis in this case, in 
which our relations with the Transvaal 
in the establishment of the Republic are 
so special and peculiar. The second 
principle is that, in the interests of South 
Africa and in the interests of the British 
Empire, Great Britain must remain 
the paramount Power in South Africa. 
Let me at once say that, when 
we talk about South Africa, we can- 
not always make every qualification and 
exception. What we mean is not the 
German or Portuguese possessions, but 
the two Republics and the British colonies. 
Almost everyone will admit that that 

K 2 Third Day, 



267 Address in Armoer to {COMMONS} 



the QueerCs Speech, 



268 



great principle is one which both sides of 
the House are determined to maintain. 
Why do we maintain it 1 Because, as the 
Leader of the Opposition said — most 
wisely, if I may venture to say so — the 
peace of South Africa depends upon our 
accepting the responsibilities of that posi- 
tion. These, then, are the two principles, 
and we are at war now because the 
oligarchy — for it is nothing more than an 
oligarchy ; it is a Kepublic, but it is not 
a democracy — because the oligarchy at 
Pretoria, very often, I am afraid — nay, I 
am certain— in its own personal interest, 
aided and abetted by President Steyn and 
advisers outside the Repu1)lic, has per- 
sistently pursued, from the very day of 
the signing of the Convention of 1881 
down to now, a policy which tended to 
the evasion of its obligations ; a policy by 
which it has broken its promises; by 
which it has placed, gradually, but surely, 
British subjects in the Transvaal in a 
position of distinct inferiority ; by which 
ft has conspired against and undermined 
the suzerainty, the paramountcy which 
belongs to Great Britain. I say 
that these are the objects of the war ; 
and I challenge — no, I do not challenge, I 
invite — hon. Members opposite, or the 
vast majority of them, at any rate, to say 
whether they differ from me in thinking 
that these two great objects — to 
maintain the rights of British subjects 
and the paramountcy of this country — 
are objects in which they share as 
fully as ourselves. Now, did President 
Kruger at any time intend to make these 
objects possible ? As I have said, we 
have hoped and believed ; but, looking 
back at what has passed, does anyone 
continue to believe that there was any 
time at which these two objects com- 
mended themselves to President Kruger's 
mind and, of course, to the minds of his 
advisers and colleagues ? If not, if that 

Eeat difference has always existed 
tween us, then am I not right in saying 
that war was inevitable some time or 
other, that some day force would have to 
be used by this country — unless, indeed, 
which I will not contemplate for a 
moment, a party could be found 
willing to betray those interests? 
K I am right so far, these rights exist, 
and are we not entitled to insist upon 
them 1 Is there any difference between 
us, or to what extent does that diflference 
go as to our right to use force 
to compel submission to our will % 

Mr, J, Chamberlain. 



This raises a question which I want to 
make perfectly clear. Are there no 
grievances of British subjects in the Trans- 
vaal ? Is it denied that they have been 
placed in a position of degrading and 
humiliating inferiority 1 I am not going 
to quote from Blue Books, although they 
are full of evidence on that subject. For 
my present purpose I rely absolutely on 
the statements of hon. and right non. 
Gentlemen opposite. I am not going to 
quote them at length, but I will quote a 
few words. The right hon. Grentleman 
the Leader of the Opposition, at Guildford, 
said that British subjects had not the 
elements of civil rights or of civil freedom. 
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for 
East Fife said that they were denied those 
civil and political rights that were cus- 
tomarily regarded as the necessary equip- 
ment of a civilised and social community. 
Lord Rosebery said they were under an 
intolerable condition of subjection and 
injustice ; and the right hon. Gentleman 
the Member for Monmouth, in a letter to 
The Timely spoke of " the grievances which 
we all admit." That is granted. With 
very few exceptions we agree to the mag- 
nitude of the grievances. Does the 
House for a moment suppose that these 
grievances are personal, and that we 
are concerned because Mr. Jones, 
of the Transvaal, is subjected to 
some inconvenience, pecuniary loss, or 
personal degradation 1 That in itself is a 
matter of some importance, for, after all, 
we do not forget the hackneyed phn.se, 
and it is a true one — that it is something 
to be British citizens. But there is some- 
thing more than that, and this is what I 
want to impress upon the House. What 
is to be our position in the world — I will 
say, what is to be our position in Africa — 
if we are to submit to this inferiority f 
Is peace to be preserved under such con- 
ditions ? Are racial differences and ani- 
mosities to be avoided 1 Whv, Sir, the 
right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the 
Opposition has again and again referred 
in terms none too strong to the evil of 
racial animosity. Yes, Sir, but what he 
has always omitted to observe is what, I 
venture to say, a colleague who sits near 
to him could have informed him of. I 
refer to the right hon. Gentleman the 
Member for South Aberdeen, who says that 
this racial animosity has not yet to be 
created by anything that we do. It wa» 
not created by the iSiid— it existed before. 

An Hon. Member: Yes. 



269 Address in Answer 



{19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 270 



Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : I do not 
wish to enter into a personal controversy, 
but I want to know why the right hon. 
Gentleman did not say so ? 

Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN : 
Because everybody knows it. What I 
said was that there was no necessity to 
state what everybody knew. What I 
wished to point out was that feelings of 
animosity would be increased tenfold and 
a hundredfold when the Dutch and 
English were driven to slaughter one 
another. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : I am grate- 
ful to the right hon. Gentleman. I am 
glad that, at all events, we are agreed 
that this animosity existed before. 

Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN : 
Hear, hear. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : We differ, 
perhaps, in our estimate of the extent to 
which this animosity will be or can be 
increased. Sir, the animosity, the racial 
animosity, which has been the curse of 
South Africa, is based upon contempt. 
Hate is bad enough, I admit, but I would 
sooner have the hate of any man 
than his contempt, and as it is 
with individuals, so it is with nations. 
These animosities are bitter, are in- 
creasing, and will increase as long as 
one white race in South Africa has con- 
tempt for the other. Is it denied 1 It was 
to his views on that point to which I wanted 
to refer when I spoke of the right hon. 
gentleman the Member for South Aber- 
deen. This morning in the Daily News I am 
supplied with my quotation. He said in 
that book, for which we all have, I hope, 
the greatest admiration, the following — 

" It must be admitted that the event belied 
some of their hopes." 

— he was speaking of the Convention of 
1881— 

"They (Mr. Gladstone's Government) had 
expected that the Transvaal people would ap- 
preciate the generosity of the retrocession 
as well as the humanity which was willing 
to forego vengeance for the tarnished lustre of 
British arms. The Boers, however, saw 
neither generosity nor humanity in their con- 
duct, but only fear. Jubilant over their 
victories and (like the Kaffirs in the South 
CkMUst wars) not realising the overwhelming 
force which could have been brought against 
them, they fancied themselves entitled to add 
some measure of contempt to the dislike they 
already cherished to the English, and they 
have ever since shown themselves unpleasant 
neighbours." 

Sir, that is a wise word and a true 



word. In my opinion, there will 
never be an end to racial animosity 
until both the white races have, 
I will not say learnt to love each other, 
but, at all events, to respect each other. 
The quotation which I have read shows, 
I think, that both sides of the House are 
are agreed as to the objects we should 
have in view; but are we agreed 
as to the main lines on which we 
should pui^sue those objects ? Of course, 
peaceful negotiation is the best line — the 
line which should be exhausted before 
any other line is attempted. That we 
are all agreed upon. I now come to my 
right hon. friend the Member for 
Montrose, and I may say that he has 
made speeches in the country of great 
moderation and, I need not say, with 
great courage, because he has been 
championing what is undoubtedly an 
unpopular cause. This is what he says 
upon this point, " We are all for insisting 
upon fair play." Again he said, "I 
entirely agree with the Government 
in insisting" — I call attention to 
the word " insisting " — " upon the vote 
being granted after five years resi- 
dence." The Leader of the Opposition 
says, " If we claim as we do claim, if we 
enforce, as we do enforce, our right to 
seek redress for the grievances of our 
countrymen," it is not because of the Con- 
vention but or our rights under general 
international law. In the main I agree 
with him. What I want to point out is 
this — that the Leader of the Opposition 
and my right hon. friend take what may 
be called an extreme view, but they both 
agree that we have a right to insist and 
to enforce our just claims upon the 
Transvaal Government. Now, Sir, is it 
not absurd, under these circumstances, to 
say that we did wrong in contemplating 
the possibility of military preparations] 
Their statements would be inexplicable 
except on the assumption that both these 
right hon. Gentlemen contemplated that a 
time might come when we shoidd have to 
" enforce " and " insist " after what had 
previously been friendly negotiations. 
Now I ask every fair-minded man on the 
other side, if you were in power and in 
the place of this Government, what would 
have been your course ? What would 
have been your policy ] It is evident 
you would have pursued the same policy 
and the same object, contending it was 
just and right, and you would have asked 
for the same reforms, for the same five 

Third Day. 



271 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen^s Speech. 



272 



years franchise. Where would your 
policy have diverged from ours ? Up to 
the present we are the most unanimous 
House of Commons on both sides that I 
have ever met. This is the point I would 
put. Suppose the negotiations had 
failed with you as they have failed 
with us, what would you have 
done then 1 If your insistence had 
been of no avail, would vou have with- 
drawn your demands 1 Would you have 
betrayed your countrymen 1 Would you 
have lost South Africa 1 It is absurd to 
answer except in one way. You would 
have been bound by your own utterances. 
You could not have helped yourselves. 
You would have been bound to carry your 
proceedings a step further and use force 
when persuasion had failed. If you had 
gone to war under these circumstances, 
there would have been absolutely no 
difference between your policy and ours. 
If you did not go to war, well, Sir, I de- 
cline to contemplate the alternative, 
which at all events would have been dis- 
astrous to your country. I wish to say a 
word upon another subject which has not 
been mentioned in the debate, and which 
has not appeared in the Blue Books. 
When we have talked of grievances 
hitherto we have confined ourselves to the 
grievances of the whites. The House will 
bear in mind when we granted the Con- 
vention of 1881 and substituted the 
articles of the Convention of 1884 we 
undertook the protection of the natives of 
the Transvaal. Those natives had been 
our subjects. They were the majority 
of the inhabitants, and we retroceded 
them to the Transvaal, the natives 
whom we had promised to pro- 
tect. How have we kept our promise 1 
Sir, the treatment of the natives of the 
Transvaal has been disgraceful ; it has 
been brutal ; it has been unworthy of a 
civilized Power. Why have we not com- 
plained, it is said. Why have not I 
complained? In 1896 I drafted a des- 
patch, and I sent it out to Sir Hercules 
Robinson, and I instructed him to make 
representations to the Transvaal as to 
their conduct to Malaboch and other 
native chiefs. Then the Raid came, and 
I had to telegraph instructions that that 
despatch could not, with any propriety, 
be presented at that time. That is the 
true reason why I have not made com- 
plaints, and why there is, therefore, very 
little correspondence in the Blue Books 
about the native grievances ; but do not 

Mr, J. Chamberlain, 



think for a moment that wo have at any 
time done our duty or kept our promise 
to these native subjects whom we retro- 
ceded against their will, and whom we 
promised to protect. We have heard a 

freat deal of the Great Trek. I do not 
now whether the hon. gentlemen who 
talk about the Great Trek ha>'e informa- 
tion different from mine — whether it 
differs very much from mine. The Great 
Trek took place mainly and chiefly be- 
cause, in the words of the Boers them- 
selves, and you can prove it from their 
own language, they wanted to " wallop 
their own niggers." 

Mr. DILLON (Mayo, E.): It is not 
true. [Cries of " Withdraw."] 

*Mr. SPEAKER: Order, order! I 
must call upon the hon. Member to with- 
draw that expression. 

Mr. DILLON: Mr. Speaker, you 
can suspend me if you like. I did not 
apply it in that sense. I did not impeach 
the veracity of the right hon. Gentleman. 
I said the statement was untrue, and that 
is an expression that I have frequently 
heard in the House of Commons. 

*Mr. speaker : I did not understand 
the hon. Gentleman to impute unveracity 
to the right hon. Gentleman, but such an 
interruption as " It is not true " in the 
course of a speech is irregular. I will 
not, after the hon. Member s explanation 
that he did not intend to impute want of 
veracity, ask him to withdraw the expres- 
sion. But I repeat that such expressions 
are entirely irregular, and I hope that 
expressions of that kind will not be 
repeated. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : Perhaps I 
may be allowed to say that I quite under- 
stand the intention of the hon. Gentle- 
man. Of course, all questions of history 
are matters of opinion to a certain 
extent, but what I want to express 
here, in the strongest possible terms^ 
is my opinion that the main 
reason for tne trek of the Boers from 
Biitish rule was their disinclination to be 
interfered with in their treatment of the 
native races. That is my belief. My 
opinion is that the independence of which 
wo hear so much, and which the Boers 
are said to value so highly, is a free right 
to treat as they like the people under 
their control. I have dealt with the 
question which I say was the first cause 



•273 Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 274 



•of the war — that is the grievances of 
British subjects, the injustice done to 
them. Now I come to the question of 
supremacy. I believe we are all agreed 
.as to the necessity of maintaining what I 
describe as supremacy. Then has it been 
threatened 1 Has there been any danger 
to this supremacy 1 Well, Sir, the 
whole policy and object of the 
Boers in regard to this matter has 
l>een displayed so clearly that the man in 
the street can read as he runs. Why, Sir, 
from 1881 downwards they have been 
patiently, cleverly, persistently, by im- 
perceptible steps, endeavouring to oust 
the Queen from her suzerainty, to throw 
off the last trace of subordination, until, 
grown bold by apparent immunity in the 
course they have pursued, they now take 
off the mask, they show openly what has 
heen their object all along, and declare 
themselves to be a sovereign independent 
State. Do you suppose that, because they 
only declared that in May last, they had 
not it in their minds 1 We had not it in 
our minds — credulous people that we 
have been. At least I had not it in mine — 
I cannot speak for my predecessors. I 
did not know that they had any preten- 
sion to be an independent sovereign State 
until they declared it in the despatch of 
May last. I do not care whether they 
insisted upon it or not. I think they 
found they had made a mistake by show- 
ing their cards, and I think in a subse- 
quent despatch they were evidently 
Anxious to weaken the effect which they 
had produced. I think that throws a 
most lurid light on the policy of the 
Boers. If you want any confirmation of 
it you will find it in a perfect cloud of 
witnesses — in the conversations, which 
came out by no fault of the Boers, 
between Joubert and Lobengula, when 
he urged upon that chief to make 
common cause with the Boers and wipe 
the stink of the English out of the land ; 
in the negotiations of 1884, to which I 
shall have to refer ; in the refusal of Pre- 
sident Kruger to accept the invitation for 
which he himself haa asked in 1896 on 
the eicpress ground that he found that 1 
xef used to discuss with him any alteration 
of Article 4, which placed the foreign re- 
lations of the Transvaal under the control 
of Her Majesty's Government; in con- 
stant intrigues with the Uitlanders them- 
.selves who, again and again, have been 
invited by Boer emissaries to give up this 
appeal to Her Majesty's Government and to 



engage with the Boers in creating a United 
South Africa entirely free of Imperial in 
fluence and control ; and in the treason- 
able appeal which was circulated widely, 
weeks before the ultimatum, on the bor- 
ders of the Cape Colony, amongst the 
Dutch, and in which they were told that 
their rights as Afrikanders in the English 
colonies — rights which are exactly on an 
equality >vith those of British subjects — 
were only protected by the continued 
existence of the two Republics, and that 
as the two Kepublics were threatened the 
Afrikanders should join with the Boers in 
going to war in order to get rid of British 
supremacy. In every line of the ultimatum, 
too, there breathes this desire to escape 
subordination. There is much more to 
be said upon which we have suspicion 
which amounts to knowledge — not the 
proof that you would bring forward in a 
court of law, but a suspicion which, I am 
certain, no one who has been in my office 
has failed to entertain, a suspicion which 
points to the fact that the mission, so- 
called, of Dr. Leyds has been one con- 
tinual series of intrigues with foreign 
Powers against the British supremacy. 
There has been an object, present to the 
minds of a certain number of the Dutch 
colonists, perhaps, but, at all events, to 
the whole population of the Transvaal 
Republic and of the Orange Free State, 
an ideal which, I will go so far as 
to say, it is very proper for them 
to entertain, but which it would 
have been most improper and most 
dangerous for us to encourage. This ideal 
was a united South Africa, an independent 
Republic, permitting us by their goodwill 
to retain our hold upon the Gape so long 
as our naval protection was necessary for 
the Republic, but leaving us in Africa in 
one corner, and there only as a matter of 
sufferance. There are people who say, 
" What a preposterous notion ! How could 
it ever have been entertained ? How 
could it ever have been a danger to this 
great country ? How could we, with our 
enormous wealth and resources, be alarmed 
by the threats of insubordination on the 
part of 30,000, be they more or less " — 
they happen to be a great deal more — 
" of Dutch farmers 1 " The inequality is 
not quite so great as that. It is all very 
well for certain hon. Gentlemen at one 
time to pretend to under-estimate the 
strength of our enemies, and at another to 
exaggerate it. I hope we take a more 
reasonable view. What was happening 

Third Day. 



275 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen^s Speech, 



27S 



was this, that by continuous accretions 
of the military armaments of the two 
States, and especially by the ammunition, 
arms, guns, artillery, and men that were 
constantly poured into the Transvaal, the 
Transvaal had become a few months ago 
by far the most powerful military State 
in Africa. Great Britain, with all its re- 
sources, could not stand up against her 
at that time. It was impossible. Of 
course we might, by an expenditure of 
blood and treasure from which every man 
would shrink, have restored our supremacy 
after it had been taken from us, but does 
anybody think that that would have been 
a trifling operation ? With the whole of 
South Africa in arms, with the whole of 
South Africa in the possession of the 
Boers, does anybody suppose that it would 
have been a small operation under such 
circumstances, even for a rich and power- 
ful country, to have put, it may be, 
200,000 or 100,000 men into South 
Africa ? That was the danger. We have 
then escaped, I believe, one of the greatest 
dangers which wo have ever been sub- 
jected to in Africa. I venture to say that 
you, the Opposition, without respect of 
party or individual opinions, with few 
exceptions, share our three great objects. 
You desire, as we did, the maintenance 
of the supremacy ; you desire the equality 
of the white races ; you desire the just 
protection which we have promised to the 
natives. The main lines of our policy 
have been the same. You in the last 
resort, as we in the last resort, would 
have resorted to arms, if necessary, to 
ensure the objects you had in view. What 
remains? — and here arises the whole 
point of difiTerence between the two sides 
— the details of the negotiations. It is 
with those I have now to deal. I come 
first to the question of the suzerainty. 
The right hon. Gentleman the Member 
for West Monmouth, in a speech in the 
country, said that he thought " the 
suzerainty had been the principal obstacle 
to a satisfactory settlement." I do not 
think that he put it so strongly last night, 
but at all events I can assure him, and I 
think I shall be able to satisfy him, that 
that opinion is altogether unfounded, and 
that, although it may be true that the 
desire to get rid of the suzerainty was 
one of the great objects, one of the great 
motive-springs of the Boers, the insistence 
on suzerainty by this country did not, 
in itself, in any way impair the con- 
duct of the negotiations. I hope the 

Mr. J, Chamberlain, 



House will bear with me while I en" 
deavour to put before it briefly, but at 
the same time as clearly as possible, the 
history of this rather complicated ques- 
tion. The right hon. Gentleman, the 
Leader of the Opposition, said that the 
question of the suzerainty had been " dug- 
up from the grave in which in 1884 it. 
had been decently buried." I do not. 
quite know what he meant by that. I 
think I know, and perhaps he will correct 
me if I am wrong. The right hon. Gen- 
tleman the Member for West Monmoutk 
said that successive Secretaries of State 
had agreed that the suzerainty was 
abolished. Now that is an entire mis> 
take. 

Sir WILLIAM HARGOURT (Mon- 
mouth, W.) : I quoted the words of the 
right hon. Gentleman himself — "succes- 
sive Secretaries of State." It was not. 
my statement. It was his — ^that suc- 
cessive Secretaries of State had declared 
that they had no right to interfere^ 
with the internal affairs of the Trans- 
vaal. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : Yes, Sir ; 
but I think, if the right hon. Gentleman 
will allow me, that that is not the point. 
He did say that, but on that he based his 
further statement that successive Secre- 
taries of State had declared that the 
suzerainty had been abolished. I am. 
dealing only with the ri^ht of suzerainty, 
not with the right of interference from 
whatever cause arising. I say that no Sec- 
retary of State for the Colonies, from 
Lord Kimberley in 1881 down to myself, 
including all those who intervened, has 
ever stated, or, as I believe, has: 
ever thought, that either the suze- 
rainty was abolished or that the 
name of suzerainty had been renounced. 
I believe I can say that this is true ; at 
any rate, that is my statement. When 
does the Leader of the Opposition suggest 
that the suzerainty was buried f Isiip- 
pose in 1884. Well, Sir, the r^ht hon. 
Gentleman was not in that Cabinet. I' 
was. I assert that it was not buried in: 
1884, and I would point out to the right 
hon. Gentleman that in saying it was ha 
makes — unintentionally, of course — a very 
serious charge against some of his present 
colleagues, and against all the members, 
of that Cabinet, because if the suzerainty 
was abolished in 1884 our supporters and 
the country were deceived. What would 



277 Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech, 27S 



have been easier than to say then it had 
been abolished — ^it would have been more 
honourable than* not to say it was 
abolished — if as a matter of fact it had 
been abolished ? But that was not the 
opinion of anyone concerned at the time 
in those negotiations. I am speaking in the 
presence of one, at all events, of my col- 
leagues in those days. We were accused 
of abolishing the suzerainty by our oppo- 
nents. Lord Cadogan, in the House of 
Lords, accused Lord Derby of an inten- 
tion to abolish the suzerainty. What was 
the reply of Lord Derby 1 It was — 

"Whatever suzerainty meant in the Con- 
vention of Pretoria, the condition of things 
which it implied still remains." 

Lord Derby went on to say — 

" Although the word was not actually era- 
ployed, we have kept to the substance of it." 

Was that consistent with the abolition of 
the suzerainty 1 Our proposition is that 
the suzerainty was never buried, never 
abolished, from 1884 down to the present 
day. Throughout successive Govern- 
ments of different party complexion the 
existence of the suzerainty was asserted, 
although the particular word was never 
used after 1884. 

Hon. Members : Hear, hear. 

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes; but it 
was never renounced. Now, Sir, I agree 
with the right hon. Grentleman the Leader 
of the Opposition when he says what does 
a word matter ? As the right hon. Gen- 
tleman says, we are not going to fight 
about a word. Not this Government, or 
any other. But is he willing to fight 
about the substance 1 That is the whole 
point. As far as the word goes I agree 
with the right hon. Gentleman. But the 
cardinal and essential fact is supremacy, 
predominance, preponderance, para- 
mountcy — call it what you will. I do 
not care a brass button which of those 
words you choose. You may call it 
Abracadabra if you like, provided you 
keep the substance. The right hen. 
Gentleman the Member for Monmouth, 
does not agree with the Leader of the 
Opposition, because he said yesterday 
that he rejected paramountcy. It is not 
merely a question of a word with him. 
He rejects the thing. He says, "How 
can you have paramountcy consistent with 
the independence of the Transvaal?" 



Now, I do not agree with the right hon. 
Gentleman. I agree much more with the 
Leader of the Opposition. When you 
talk of independence here it appears that 
in order not to be misunderstood you must^ 
always use a tremendous series of words 
to express a meaning which is, after all, 
in the mind of everyone. Of course, 
when we talk of the independence of the? 
Transvaal, we always mean independence 
as limited by the Convention. Very 
well, I submit that suzerainty is a better 
term to use in regard to a State whose 
main independence is limited. 



Sir WILLIAM 
Convention. 



HARCOURT: By 



Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : Certainly 
by Convention. Surely no one has ever 
argued that suzerainty was otherwise than 
defined by the articles of the Convention. 
I confess our opinion is — although I have; 
said I did not care about a word — that 
suzerainty is a better word than para-^ 
mountcy. "Suzerainty" expresses our 
position in regard to the Transvaal Re- 
public. * * Paramountcy " would express our 
position better with the Orange Free; 
State over which we have no suze- 
rainty, but in regard to which our 
relations have always been more or less, 
modified by the fact that we have para- 
mount interests. But, as I have said, it 
matters little what is the word, provided 
we have the substance. Now why, 
in those circumstances, was the word 
used in the despatch of October 16, 1897? 
It has been supposed by the right hon. 
Gentleman the Member for Monmouth 
that this was a gratuitous introduction of 
an irritating expression in a despatch 
which was intended to be conciliatory 
and to make for peace. No, Sir, it was. 
not so at all. In my judgment the rever- 
sion to the word suzerainty was absolutely 
called for by the action of the Boers in 
attempting openly to undermine the sub- 
stance of the suzerainty. The name 
became of importance when the substance? 
was attacked. That is the point. Let 
us see now how that happened. We ara 
all agreed as to the importance of the 
substance, admirably described by Lord 
Kimberley in 1881 as " the superiority 
over a State possessing independent 
rights of government subject to reser- 
vations with reference to certain specified 
matters." That is the definitioa 
which we have always accepted^ 

Third Day. 



"279 Address in Answei' to {COMMONS} the Queen^s Speech, 



280 



^nd upon which we have always pro- 
•ceeded. The word was then chosen as 
most conveniently describing this 
superiority. Let me say in passing that 
it is of collateral importance. It is not 
merely a matter of etymological defini- 
tion, but the importance of the word con- 
sists in the impression it produces upon 
those foreign Powers whose intervention 
in South Africa we desire to avoid. It is 
-a. well understood term. It gives us 
certain rights in regard to them, and for 
that reason I have always preferred it, as 
■a matter of convenience, to any other 
word that has been suggested. Well, 
•this word suzerainty appears in the pre- 
amble of the Convention of 1881. A 
^eat deal of confusion has ari^n from 
talking of this preliminary part of the 
Convention of 1881 as a preamble. It is 
not properly a preamble. It is the charter 
of the independence — the limited inde- 
pendence — of the Transvaal. Destroy the 
preamble and there is no basis whatever 
for the independence of the Transvaal — 
no legal and constitutional basis for the 
independence of the Transvaal. That, 
at all events is the view we have 
always taken on the subject. No 
doubt, from the moment this Con- 
vention was signed — although it was 
described, in the few days that followed, 
by President Kruger as a most magnani- 
mous act on the part of the firitish 
Government, one which would gain for 
ever for the British Government and the 
Queen the loyalty, admiration, and 
latitude of the Transvaal people — from 
almost the day on which his signature 
was affixed to that Convention President 
Kruger was engaged in an attempt to get 
it altered. Accordingly, in 1884, a new 
Conference took place. What was the 
•origin of that Conference ? A letter 
from the Boer Government asking Her 
Majesty's Government to consider, what 1 
Not the abolition of the suzerainty, but 
some restriction of the extent of the 
suzerainty. Those are the exact words. 
They did not claim the abolition of the 
suzerainty — they wanted it to be restric- 
ted ; as it was so, in fact, subsequently, 
most imprudently as I am obliged to 
•confess now. But although that was the 
letter which the Boer Government 
sent and upon which a deputation 
from them was received, the moment 
they got here and were received they 
changed their note, and they put in a 
treaty in the introduction of which they 

Mr. J. Cha.nhn'hdn, 



claimed to be an independent State publici 
juriSf and in that treaty, as between two 
independent States, they asked for arbi- 
tration to settle all differences that might 
have or had arisen. What was the 
answer of Lord Derby — of the man who 
is now said to have abolished the 
suzerainty ? He returned their treaty to 
them. He said the terms of the treaty 
and the form of the treaty were such as 
Her Majesty's Government could not even 
consent to consider. So far, at all events, 
Lord Derby had not abolished the suze- 
rainty. He refused to abolish the suze- 
rainty, and, as I have shown, he in the 
most express manner declined to consider 
the subject. Well, the actual Convention 
which was signed did not mention suze- 
rainty. But why should it 1 Will hon. 
Gentlemen, those who are lawyers as well 
as those who are not, apply common sense 
to this proceeding ? You have two very 
formal and important agreements, con- 
tracts between two parties. Is it cus- 
tomary to interpret these contracts by 
anything else than what is contained 
within the four comers of them ? If you 
treat these two Conventions in that way, 
what do you find? That the second 
Convention says that Her Majesty has 
been pleased to say such and such articles 
shall be substituted for such and such 
other articles. Suppose an Act of 
Parliament repealed in terms certain 
clauses of another Act, Glauses 2, 3, 4, 5, 
and 6, would it be contended that it also 
inferentially repealed Clause 1 f Surely 
in this case, where the second Conven- 
tion deliberately, clearly, and definitely 
states, as it does, that it substitutes cer- 
tain articles for other articles, what you 
ought to do is to paste these articles over 
the articles which are repealed, and leave 
all the rest standing. I think it is per- 
fectly clear, under these circumstances, 
that the preamble remains — that preamble 
which is the justification of the suzerainty, 
and which is also the foundation of the 
independence of the South African 
Republic. ** Oh, but," says the right hon. 
Grentleman, '* there was a black line round 
the preamble in one of the documents 
which was submitted to the Boer deputa- 
tion." In the first place I do not think it 
is fair, when we know nothing about the 
circumstances, at all events, of those 
interviews, to construe formal documents 
by inferential statements, obiter dida^ 
memoranda which are not contained in 
those documents. There are heaps of 



281 Jddress in Answer to {19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech, 



282 



answers that might be made to the argu- 
ment derived from the fact that in the 
draft of the second Convention which was 
submitted to the Boers jbl black line was 
drawn round the preamble of the first 
Convention — but the answer which I 
make — I do not know whether it is the 
true one, but it seems to me to be com- 
mon sense — is this, that in drawing up 
the second Convention there was no room 
for the preamble. The second Conven- 
tion had nothing to do with the pre- 
amble ; the second Convention substi- 
tuted articles hy which the suzerainty 
was limited. The preamble remaining, it 
was not necessary to put that preamble 
once more in the second Convention. 
I am arguing with a lawyer, but it seems 
to me — being a layman, I do not want to 
push a legal argument too far — that if 
jou did put the preamble into the Con- 
vention of 1884 you would have made 
nonsense of it ; it would not read ; there 
is no reason for putting it in. It does 
not follow that because you did not put 
it in in 1884, therefore you repealed it in 
1884. That is the conclusion that was 
left on my mind when I first came to the 
consideration of this subject. If this 
uncertainty — if there is any uncertainty 
— has produced misunderstanding in the 
minds of the Boers, or in the mind of 
anybody else, what is the moral ? The 
moral is that in diplomacy, as in most 
other things, you should not only mean 
what you say, but you should say what 
jou mean. That being the state of the 
case, what happened in 1897? We got 
a despatch from the Transvaal Govern- 
ment once more proposing the old 
arrangement, making the same proposal 
which had been made in 1884 which was 
summarily rejected by Lord Derby. 
Once more they proposed that 
vre should enter into an arrange- 
ment with thena that all differences 
should be subjected to arbitration by a 
foreign State ; which was again the asser- 
tion of precisely the position which had 
been rejected in 1884. Sir, it was a 
challenge to us, and if we had not taken 
notice of that challenge it would have 
been said of us that tacitly we had done 
away with the suzerainty which up to 
that moment had never been aban- 
doned by our predecessors, and which we 
believe in the minds of our predecessors 
was believed to exist. That is the justi- 
fication — whatever may have been the 
effect of the introduction of the word 



" suzerainty," that is the justification of 
it in the minds of Her Majesty's Govern- 
ment. Our hands were forced. We had 
been content, as our predecessors had 
been content, to speak of " paramountcy " 
becafuse we supposed that it was less 
irritating than the word "suzerainty." 
That suzerainty was challenged in the 
substance ; then we thought it necessary 
to reassert the name also. Here is 
another point which I particularly wish to 
impress upon the mind of the right hon. 
Gentleman. How is suzerainty an oIh 
staclo to a settlement 1 I must assun^e 
he thinks that the mention of suzerainty 
is extremely irritating to the Boers. 
Granted, for the sake of argument. 
It was made in October, 1897. What 
happened ? Did they immediately make 
a strong reply ? Not a bit of it. They 
allowed the whole controversy to lapse 
for six months. It was six months before 
we heard a single word in reply. When 
we made our second reply an interval of 
five months was allowed to elapse. It 
was nineteen months after the word had 
been introduced that they agreed, appa- 
rently most willingly, to the Conference at 
Bloemfontein, and through the whole of 
that Conference, from the beginning to the 
end, the President never put forward the 
question of suzerainty. The only points 
on which he was apparently anxious were 
the question of indemnity, the question 
of arbitration, and his claim to have 
entire control of Swaziland. I think, 
therefore, even if it were granted to the 
right hon. Gentleman that it would be a 
mistake to introduce this question into 
the discussion at all, the right hon. 
Gentleman must admit that it could not 
have a serious effect on the subsequent ne- 
gotiations. The second point of objection 
which the right hon. Gendeman has taken 
to our policy is the publication of Sir 
Alfred Milner's despatch. Will the 
House consider for a moment who Sir 
Alfred Milner is ? What were the cir- 
cumstances of his appointment 1 The 
moment that appointment was made, by 
common acclamation from everybody — 
every organ of public opinion, to which- 
ever party they belonged — Sir Alfred 
Milner's appointment was hailed as the 
most admirable appointment that could 
possibly have been made. It was recog- 
nised that he was a most distinguished 
public servant ; everything he had done 
he had done well. It was said he was a 
man of great discretion and judgment ; it 

Third Day. 



283 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech. 



28-t 



was said he was a man cautious even to 
an extreme; it was believed that going 
to that country in difficult and com- 
plicated circumstances he, at all events, 
would not err on the side of temerity. 
I believe Sir Alfred Milner belongs, 
politically, to the party opposite. [" No ! "] 
It is just as good for my argument 
whether he does or not. I thought he 
belonged to the party opposite, but I do 
not attach any importance to that, be- 
cause I believe neither party, for their 
own credit, would ever think of party 
considerations in selecting an agent for so 
important a position. But having selected 
an agent you have got to trust him ; you 
have got to assume, after he has been on 
the spot a sufficient time, that his opinion 
is worthy of the most careful considera- 
tion, and you must not in any way in- 
struct him contrary to his opinion unless 
you have most complete assurance to the 
contrary. Well, when we were publish- 
ing an important Blue Book, when matters 
were critical, I had not at the time any 
opinion on the situation from Sir Alfred 
Milner that I could publish. Suppose I had 
published an important Blue Book without 
an opinion from him, what would have 
been said ? Would not the first thing I 
should have been asked have been : — 
" Whore is Sir Alfred Milner's opinion 1 
If he has given an opinion, why have you 
suppressed it ? Why have you acted 
without his opinion ? " That would be a 
most reasonable and proper question. 
Therefore I telegraphed to Sir Alfred 
Milner asking him to give his views for 
their publication. He sent the despatch ; 
I published it as I received it. What is 
suggested that I should have done ? Is 
it suggested that I should have 
suppressed it ? What a howl of 
indignation would have come from the 
opposite benches if I had done that. 
Why, Sir, if I had disagreed with what 
Sir Alfred Milner said in that despatch I 
doubt very much whether I should have 
been justified in the circumstances of the 
case, considering the character and posi- 
tion of Sir Alfred Milner — I doubt 
whether I should have been justified in 
withholding from the House the opinion 
he had expressed. 

Mr. SWIFT MacNEILL (Donegal) : 
What about General Butler's despatches ? 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : That is a 
foolish and rather unnecessary interven- 
tion. I published, indeed, one despatch 

Mr. J. Cluimherlain, 



from General Butler on purpose to show 
what his opinion was. I had other 
despatches from General Butler, some 
marked " Confidential," some of them in- 
volving personal questions which could 
not, in the interests of the public 
service, have been presented. But I 
myself particularly insisted that one 
despatch from General Butler should 
be published in order that his views 
should be known, although I do not con- 
sider that General Butler, who had just 
gone to the Cape in a military capacity^ 
had at all the same claim to have 
his opinion represented to the House 
as Sir Alfred Milner had. When 
I was interrupted I was saying that 
clearly it was my duty, except in some 
very exceptional circumstances, to pub- 
lish Sir Alfred Milner's despatch, sent 
for the purpose, even if I had disagreed 
with it. But, Sir, I agree with every 
word of it. How can it be supposed for 
a moment that there is a single thing 
whi^h Sir Alfred Milner has done — whether 
he did it, by the necessity of the case, 
without consultation with me, or whether 
he did it after consultation with me — for 
which I do not take the fullest responsi- 
bility ? But then, I think, the contention 
is that there is a particular passage in 
Sir Alfred Milner's despatch which I 
should have suppressed. If I had sup- 
pressed it, it would have had nothing 
whate^'er to do with the controversy. It 
is not an offence to the Boers ; it does 
not affect the settlement with them. If 
there is any criticism to be cast upon it^ 
it is that it is unwise to give publicity t<> 
statements which reflect in any way upon 
the loyalty of our own colonies. But what- 
ever view you take of it, it cannot, at all 
events, be contended that the publication 
of that passage in the despatch had any- 
thing whatever to do with exasperating 
our relations with the Transvaal What 
were the words Sir Alfred Milner used % 
He said — 

"The Dutch Press in the Tranavaal"— 
everybody knows the nature of the Dutch 
Press in the Transvaal — "and not in th» 
Transvaal onl v " — that refers to a portion of 
the Press in the colony — " preaches openly and 
constantly the doctrine of a Repuolic em- 
bracing all South Africa, and supports it by 
menacing references to the armament of the- 
Transvaal, its alliance with the Orange Fre» 
State, and the active sympathy which in oasei 
of war it would receive from a section of Her 
Majesty's subjects. I regret to say that this 
doctrine, supported as it is by a ceaseless, 
stream of malignant lies about the intentioiift 



285 Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} the QueerCs Speech, 



286 



of the British Grovernment, is producing a great 
effect upon our Dutch fellow-colonists." 

Sir, was that true ? Yes, it was. Then, 
if it was true, does anyone mean to tell me 
it was dignified, or proper, or right, or 
wise to play the part of the ostrich, to 
"bury our head in the sand, and conceal 
what is a most important element of the 
-situation ? That, then, is all that I have 
to say in defence of our action in publish- 
ing the despatch of Sir Alfred Milner. Now, 
Sir, I come to the franchise negotiations. 
Of course, the House is fully aware of the 
state of things which preceded those 
negotiations. Matters, which had never 
been satisfactory with regard to the treat- 
ment of the Uitlanders, were going from 
bad to worse. No single grievance had 
been remedied since the Raid. On the 
•contrary, additional grievances had been 
created and old grievances had been 
increased. The last grievance of all was 
connected with the Edgar murder. Sir, 
I regretted to hear my right hon. friend 
the Member for Bodmin on a previous 
occasion making himself an apologist for 
this transaction. As a murder, if it had 
rstood alone it was not more, perhaps^ than 
A murder in any other civilised country. 
But what made it serious was the way 
in which the Government treated the 
murderer, the way in which they pro- 
voked and then broke up agitations on 
behalf of the victim and on behalf of 
justice and fair play. The end of that 
was a petition from the Uitlanders to the 
-Government. Her Majesty's Govern- 
ment examined the petition, found the 
grievances substantial, and found the 
•charges proved. They then wrote what 
I think must be admitted to have been a 
most moderate despatch. No one has yet 
laid finger on a word in that despatch 
which could be described as provocative. 
In that despatch we said that we could 
■not permanently ignore the condition to 
which our fellow-subjects were reduced, 
.and then we suggested a Conference, 
which was anticipated by a suggestion 
from President Steyn, and which took 
place at Bloemfontein, to discuss the 
<question. Sir, I have seen complaints 
made that here was a failure on the 
part of the British Government to con- 
duct these negotiations properly, and 
that we were in the wrong to put the 
franchise first. But what was the alter 
native ? There were only two things we 
•could have done. We did not pretend 
tthat we had then, any more than we 



had at any other time, a right of in- 
terference in the internal affairs of the 
Republic ; but what we did contend was 
that we had a right to secure justice for 
our fellow-subjects, and we thought that 
the best way to secure that justice would 
be to enable them to secure justice for 
themselves ; and, above all, we thought 
that it would be a great advantage in 
future if her Majesty's Government were 
discharged from the task of taking up 
any future grievances, and could say : 
"You have your own Parliament, in 
which you are represented; go to that 
Parliament and represent your views and 
gain redress in a constitutional way." 
Sir, there were only two alternatives. We 
could put forward, as we did, this fran- 
chise proposal, which has always been 
wrongly described, as I put it to the right 
hon. Gentleman yesterday, as a mere 
franchise proposal, but which was really a 
proposal for substantial representation — 
such a representation as would enable the 
Uitlanders to have a fair amount of in- 
fluence upon the legislation of the country 
in which they lived. And we had the 
alternative instead of putting that for- 
ward, of claiming redress for every 
grievance, for scores of grievances — 
which would have involved interference 
in almost every detail of Transvaal 
administration — the courts of justice, 
the magistrates, the appointment 
of officials, bribery and corruption, 
monopolies, taxation, and matters deal- 
ing with civil and political rights. 
There were heaps of other grievances, 
every one of which we should have had 
to raise if we had gone straight to 
grievances instead of taking up a method 
by which all grievances can be redressed. 
My right hon. friend the Member for 
Montrose has very properly said in one 
of his speeches that if the Government 
had done that thev would have courted 
defeat. Yes, does anyone suppose that 
President Kruger, who refused our mild 
proposition for the gradual settlement — 
it would not have been immediate ; it 
would have taken years fully to arrive 
at — does anybody suppose that if he 
rejected that, he would have accepted 
from us an interference, an intermeddling 
control and revision of almost every 
detail of his whole administration ? 
Then my right hon. friend the Member 
for Montrose made a charge against us 
which is clearly not justified. He said 
that after that we had shifted our ground. 

Third Day. 



287 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Quern's ^fch. 28S 

Sir, we never shifted our ground from the opportunity of removing miBconception. 

first minute to the last moment of the '^■"'»' ■'*''■ *'""' '"""' t^"""- "-v^nnoolo nf 

day of the ultimatum ; our ground has 

still been the same 

ward new proposal: 

exactly the same as they alway 

been— a substantial and immediate 

presentation at any moment, in order, at man the Member for South Shields sa^s- 

all events, to put an end to the immediate , they were moderate — I agree with tun 

tension and crisis, 

Mr. JOHN MORLFA' 



Burghs) : I think the right hon. Gen- 
tleman will not deny that what I said ?' 
was true. What I mean was that in the j^ 
despatch with regard to the franchi 



how have these proposals of 
described upon the other side f 
We never put for- I take all my cniotations from the other 
The proposals were side because I want to minimise, if 
' ' '' ' any difference that may rtill 

The hon. and learned Gentle- 



-even to the extent of being useleaa 
,->r . if President Kruger had had the clever- 

y ^ ness to accent them in full. That is. at 



to accept them in full. That is, at 

all events, an arguable view. But I admit 

ch more afraid of the charge 

being proved against me of being toO' 

moderate than I am of any charge being 



proio.al>, he adfid what I rogarded a. ■"-'"'•'- •-•"' "■" "' "»/ """"S" "".'"S 

I C .entence, that thcr. wSre other ff-°I'»'=?f ',?. ™ »' Jj'"^ ^TZZ 

question, which wore to be settled eon- ""!'• S"'.,«li,»» proposal. «h,ch were 
currently with the franchise. 



Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir, 



were 
made involved no danger to the inde- 
pendence of the Transvaal — none what- 
They would not have affected 



that was not new ; it was mentioned at President Kruger's personal authority, 
the Bloemfontein Conference. ["No."] They would only have proceeded very 
Yes, pardon me, and it will be found slowly towards that equality which he 
in the Blue Book. If you will read the himself promised, and to which we all 
protocol of that Conference, you will look as being the ideal government for 
find that that was mentioned and the whole of South Africa. The result of 
explained. Let me point out what the the Bloemfontein Conference was to show 
position waa. Sir A. Milncr proposed a I the spirit of our opponents. President. 
moderate and substantial representation I Krugerrefusedtheseproposalsand brought 
as practically a cure — not an immediate, j forward a proposal of his own, which on 
but a slow and gradual cure — for all the j the face of it was so ludicrous that it 
grievances of the Uitlanders. Then he , couldnot be considered ; and that showed 
proposed arbitration for the settlement of for the first time perhaps clearly that 
all differences of interpretation of the there was a gulf between us and that 
Convention, and the third thing was a there was an essential difference. 'While 
friendly Conference to settle certain , President Krueei- might be willing to- 
matters which were outside the Conven- . give us names, he was not willing to give 
tion and which were not subjects for | us substance. After the Bloemfontein 
arbitration. Let me tell the right hon. Conference the matter went on ; three 
Gentleman what they wore. I only know futile and inadequate proposals followed 
two of them. One was compensation for each other. The right hon. Gentleman 



the Edgar murder. That n 



it ha\-e b 



' made a great deal of the statement of 



arbitrated upon ; but the other and more mine that I was happy to see in each i 
important matter wits the treatment of ' aavanec upon the other. It was a differ- 
British Indian subjects. That was un- ' encc between tweedledum and Iweedlo- 
fortunately outside the Convention, and i dee. 

it had ti be dealt with a. a .eparate I ^ jj j, Eetro.peetive 5 

matter. Ihat was not a question on i ^ 

which we were going to arbitrate,! Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN; Yea. I do- 
especially because the whole question of I not say there were not some points of 
the treatment of the coloured races in difference between them ; but the last of 
South Africa is a very difficult one, and i these proposals, like the first, when it 
we have to make allowances for the pre- ! came to be examined, did not give the 
judices both in the Transvaal and in our | slightest possibility for hope of any sub- 
own colonies. Wo therefore thought that ' stantial or immediate representation, 
instead of referring it to a formal tribunal Then came the first real proposal of 
an informal conference would be much a seven years franchise. It did 
better. Those are the three points, and I appear to me to make an advance. I 
say again that I am glad to have this did not say it was a basis of aettlem 
Mr. J. Cliam^lain, 



I 



289 Address in Aiiswei' to {19 October 1899} the Queen's Speedi. 290 



but that it made me hope that it might 
be a basis of settlement. I saw in it a 
distinct advance on anything which had 
been proposed before. I hoped it would 
turn out to be a genuine reform, and I 
proposed an inquiry into the matter. I 
asked first that President Kruger would 
be good enough to consult with Sir Alfred 
Mimer before the law was passed, think- 
ing that it would be much better that we 
should come to an agreement before the 
law was passed, instead of asking the 
Volksraad, after the law was passed, to 
make a modification. President Kruger 
refused again, in the spirit in which he has 
always approached this matter, and the 
law Was passed. In the despatch of 
July 27, which was communicated on 
August 2, we asked for a commission of 
experts to examine the law and to make 
reports to their respective Governments* 
and that if it were found that they con- 
sidered that the law did not give the sub- 
stantial representation for which we 
asked we should make further represen- 
tations to President Kruger in the hope 
that he would assent to an alteration. 
Now, what Avas the answer to this re- 
quest ? The answer to that despatch was 
written on August 12, and it was held 
back because of the pourparlers going on, 
and it was only delivered on September 1. 
It was a despatch refusing this innocent 
commission of inquiry into the conditions 
of the franchise. And why did President 
Kruger refuse it ? Not upon a minor 
point, but because it was derogatory to 
the independence of the Transvaal. If 
it was — if President Kruger believed it 
was — it was of course a flat refusal, and 
we could not expect him to do anything 
derogatory to his own independence. If 
that was his opinion on September 1, and 
that was a genuine answer, we had a right 
to take it as a flat refusal. Now, the 
pourparlers went on between Mr. Greene 
and Mr. Smuts, but so little did the Trans- 
vaal like this proposal of the commission, 
so anxious were they, for some reason or 
other, to avoid it, that the whole object 
of the pourparlers was to see whether they 
would be allowed to substitute the new 
proposals for what had been previously 
talked about — the commission. That was 
the distinct object. In order that they 
might get rid of the inquiry they made 
this proposal. Well, Sir, about that 
proposal there is a good deal which has 
nitherto been entirely unexplained. I 
am not going to speak of the discrepan- 



cies which arose between Mr. Smuts, the 
Attorney General, and Mr. Greene. You 
recollect that they conversed together and 
each took his own notes, and there is 
always a possibility of a little misunder- 
standing under such circumstances. I 
am sure there is no one in this House who 
has suffered more from such misunder- 
standing than myself. I do not therefore 
rest upon that, but it. was a very curious 
thing that when the proposal was oflicially 
communicated it certainly omitted several 
very important points, which Mr. Greene 
believed were offered to him by Mr. 
Smuts, and I confess that the proba- 
bilities of the case are that Mr. Greene's, 
recollection would be accurate in re- 

fard to a matter of that kind. He would 
ardly suppose these advantages were 
offered unless, at all events, they 
had been mentioned in the conversation. 
But, however that may be, serious dis- 
crepancies appeared in the official proposal,, 
which was not as favourable as the pro- 
posal which we imagined was coming to- 
ns. And here I come to another stage, in 
regard to which there has hitherto been 
an apparent difference between us and 
some of our critics. It is said that when 
this proposal came to us we refused it> 
wo slammed the door. The right hon. 
Gentleman the Member for Monmouth- 
shire said, " You slammed one door and 
refused to open another." We did not. 
slam the door ; we did not refuse the 
proposal, but we accepted it. 

Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT : You 
refused the conditions. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Veiy well, 
let us see. We accepted all that part 
which referred, of course, to our de- 
mands. We agreed to accept the five 
years settlement as a basis, sub- 
ject to an inquiry which as they ob- 
jected to a joint inquiry should 
be a unilateral inquiry. They attached 
conditions. Now what were those con- 
ditions ] The first was that we should 
agree to a scheme of arbitration. We 
accepted it. We had been negotiating on 
that basis. We proposed it at Bloem- 
fontein. Of course we accepted it. 
They then proposed that we should not 
insist upon our assertion of suzerainty 
and should tacitly agree to drop the 
controversy. We accepted it. I admit- 
I am not certain that I should have 
accepted it if I had not been bound 

Third Day. 



291 Address in Jnsiver to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech. 



292 



by my previous utterances. In the 
despatch which closed the old controversy 
of the suzerainty we had said of our own 
motions, without any reference to them, 
that, having laid our views before them, 
having declared that we adhered to them, 
we did not intend to enforce them any 
further. Under these circumstances 
all I could do was to refer back to that 
despatch. So two of the conditions were 
a,t once accepted. The next condition 
was this — the right hon. Gentleman 
did not state it accurately last night. 
He said the condition was that we 
•should not make this a precedent for 
further intervention. If that had been 
all I do not think we should have refused 
it ; but what they asked in addition was 
that there should be no further inter- 
vention. With our experience of the 
Transvaal, with the knowledge that the 
next day some difficulty of a similar 
character might arise, with the knowledge 
that promises made might not be kept, 
with the knowledge that the anticipations 
we had formed might be disappointed, 
and that we should have all the trouble 
again in a week's time, we were asked 
to pledge ourselves, under no circum- 
tstances and at no time, to practise 
any intervention. That was impossible. 
If the light hon. Gentleman will now 
consider he will see that our reply to the 
Transvaal despatch was the acceptance of 
every point, except that, instead of giving 
a pledge that we would never interfere 
again, we expressed a hope, an honest 
and earnest hope, that if these measures 
were carried out there would be no 
reason for our intervention. I cannot 
-explain to the House why, having got 
that despatch from the Government, the 
Transvaal went back on their own pro- 
posal. We might at once have gone into 
a commission, either unilateral or joint, 
as they preferred, in order to discover 
whether there were any pitfalls in the 
proposals. Personally I believe that in 
the interval a malign influence appeared 
in our transactions with the Transvaal, 
and that communications Avere received 
by the Transvaal from their iulvisers — I 
must not be misunderstood, I am not 
alluding to foreign Powers, but to 
advisers of the Transvaal. I make that 
explanation because it struck me as 
necessary while I was speaking, as I am 
not going to mention names. I do }>elieve 
that influential advisers of the Transvaal 
must have interfered and got them to 

Jtfr. t7. Chamberlain. 



withdraw the offer which, at all events, I 
hoped might have prevented this crisis, 
or at least have lessened the tension 
which existed. Well, Sir, what happened? 
The Transvaal, without reason as I con- 
ceive, formally withdrew their own pro- 
posal. They asserted that we had refused 
their conditions, although they could not 
prove it. They withdrew their proposal, 
and they went back to a proposal which 
was then, I think, a montn or six weeks 
old, and asked us once more to engage in 
a commission which might have met and 
lasted for weeks, but which in the end 
was certain to have one, only one, result, 
because in the meantime we had ascer- 
tained from our own examination of the 
provisions of the Bill that as it stood it 
was perfectly inadequate to give us the 
substantial representation we asked. Let 
me again quote the words of the hon. and 
learned Gentleman the Member for South 
Shields. He is a lawyer, and quite com- 
petent to consider a subject of this kind. 
This is what he says — 

" I have ^one carefuUj through the proposed 
Franchise Hill by which President Kroffer 
claims to have ^ven a seven years franchise 
to the Uitlanders. I do not hesitate to say 
that that Act is a grotesque and palpable 
sham. I doubt whether 200 or 300 Uitlandem 
could be found who could honestly fulfil its 
conditions." 

I agree entirely with every word of- that 
passage. Is it contended by anybody 
in face of that statement made by a 
gentleman, who, as I say, is not a 
member of my party, and who is well 
qualified to speak — is it contended that 
we ought to have gone back, after all 
these three or four months' delay, to an 
inquiry which could only have bi^en pro- 
posed in order to gain time wnile 
ammunition and arms and food were 
pouring into the Transvaal, and mean- 
while the unrest and distress of the Band 
were increasing every day 1 I do not see 
how it would have been possible to main- 
tain the condition of things which thus 
obtained in the Transvaal for the time 
that would have been requisite for such 
an inquiry. Well, Sir, this withdrawal 
happened on September 8. The right 
hon. Gentleman, having first said that we 
slammed the door, went on to say that 
we had not opened another door. Not 
only, as I have said, was the door not 
slammed then, but it was not slammed 
afterwards. Why does not the 
right hon. Gentleman say that at all 
events another construction might be 



293 Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech, 294 



put upon the delay which took place ? 
It is true we sent an interim despatch to 
say we could not accept the proposal, the 
belated proposal, for a new inquiry into 
an Act which we knew to be insufficient 
and inadequate, and that under those cir- 
cumstances we should have to formulate 
our own conclusions. We said that under 
the circumstances it was useless to pro- 
ceed. What does that mean 1 Useless 
for us to argue with people who had made 
up their minds. Suppose they had 
changed their minds. I will not say, I 
will not even imagine, what we might 
have done under the circumstances. 
What would the right hon. Gentleman 
have done if the Transvaal Government, 
having changed their minds, had proposed 
to us a five years franchise without the 
objectionable condition, and we had re- 
fused 1 Would he not have denounced us 
then? Would he not have denounced us with 
some reason, and should we not have had 
a very difficult task to defend ourselves ] 
Having got from the Transvaal a state- 
ment tnat went back on their own pro- 
posals and said they would only put for- 
ward proposals that we had declared to 
be absolutely inadequate, was it a closing 
of the door to new propositions from 
the Transvaal to say that we could 
not pursue the controversy on those 
lines? It is perfectly monstrous 
and farcical considering the circum- 
stances I have mentioned. I suggest 
to the right hon. Gentleman that a 
charitable construction of our action 
would be that the delay Avhich took place 
in presenting what must necessarily have 
been an ultimatum was not altogether 
unconnected with the hope that the 
Transvaal at the last moment might 
make some change in their attitude 
towards us. Well, but over and above that 
the communication Avas delayed by other 
reasons. President Stevn had entered 
into correspondence with Sir Alfred 
Milner. I admit that the correspondence 
did not offer from the first much hope of 
anything like a satisfactory settlement, 
and it became perfectly evident in the 
course of it that President Steyn was not 
really proceeding in a way which was 
likely to have any good result. I think 
I interrupted the rieht hon. Gentleman 
on this point last night. At all events, I 
have now got the words. I find Presi- 
dent Steyn said that without the with- 
drawal of the troops on both sides and an 
undertaking on the part of Her Majesty's 

VOL. LXXVII. [Fourth Series.] 



Government not to increase them it 
would be futile to attempt to make or 
obtain suggestions or proposals for a solu- 
tion of the difficulty. What proposal 
could have been more one-sided than that 
if we would withdraw our troops the South 
African Republics would withdraw theirs? 
With little of the transport and impedi- 
menta which usually accompany European 
armies, the Boer troops could be easily 
mobilised. That is not the case with 
British troops. If we moved our troops 
to the coast it would take a considerable 
lime to get them back again, and if the 
negotiations had fallen through our 
colonies might have been overrun. I do 
not believe President Steyn had the least 
idea that we would accept his proposal. 
The right hon. Gentleman says : " You 
never treated President Steyn fairly, be- 
cause you would not indicate to him your 
proposals." But in this final statement 
of his. President Steyn does not talk of 
our proposals. What he says is that it 
would be futile for him to attempt to 
make proposals for the solution of the 
difficulty. No doubt what he contemplated 
was that, if we would withdraw our 
troops and put ourselves into a position 
of inferiority to the Boers should 
hostilities subsequently take place, he 
would make proposals to us in return for 
that advantage. Heaven knows what 
they would be ! I do not think under 
these circumstances he had much reason 
to believe they would be accepted. 



Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT : I have 
one question to ask of very great im- 
portance. President Steyn asked on 
28th September that your new proposals 
to be formulated should be communicated 
to him. You answered on 1st October 
that they should be communicated, that 
they were being prepared, but were not 
ready. You said, on 5 th October, that 
they were still being prepared, and you 
would communicate them. Why did you 
not communicate them ? You said you 
would. 



Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Yes. We 
said we would, and at that time I fully 
expected they would be communicated at 
the outside in a week. As a matter of 
fact they were delayed about a fortnight. 
That is quite true. But I beg the right 
hon. Gentleman to take into account what 

L Third Day, 



295 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Qiieen^s Speech, 



296 



I have said. In the first place a certain 
amount of delay did — as every newspaper 
which supports the right hon. Gentleman 
has seen and admitted — leave an open 
door to President Kruger and give him 
a last chance. But he ought to bear in 
mind also — and I am content to rest my 
case upon this — that in the interval we 
communicated with President Steyn, and 
that we wanted to see the result of the 
negotiations before we committed our- 
selves to our ultimatum. That is a plain 
statement. The right hon. Gentleman 
actually said at the close of his speech 
that he thought the House of Commons 
had a right to see and consider these 
communications — this ultimatum which 
has never been communicated to Pre- 
sident Kruger. 

Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT : The 
Duke of Devonshire said the new pro- 
posals were so reasonable that they would 
satisfy President Kruger that we had no 
intention of invading the independence of 
the Transvaal. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : I think the 
hon. gentleman has misquoted the Duke. 
I am sure — I have not the words of the 
speech by me — that what the Duke said 
was that although he had very little hope 
of a satisfactory result he did cling to the 
desire that those proposals — which would 
be found extremely moderate — might be 
accepted by President Kruger. It is a 
different thing to say, as the right hon. 
Gentleman puts it, that they were so 
moderate that they would have been 
accepted, and that they were so moderate 
that he hoped, although not very stroncly, 
still he hoped against hope that they 
would be accepted. 

Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: We 
want to see them. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : I dare say 
the right hon. Gentleman does. That 
want will never be gratified. That ulti- 
matum is buried, and is never likely to 
be raised again, and when the time comes 
to deal with the situation at the con- 
clusion of hostilities I am perfectly 
certain the terms will be something quite 
different. Now I am coming to the end, 
much to my own satisfaction, and I am 
inclined to . put this question to every 
fair-minded and impartial man in the 
House. I am not contending that 

Mr, /. Chamberlain. 



there may not be something in all 
these transactions on whidi there may 
be reasonable and perfectly legitimate 
ground for criticism. But I ask, in all 
this long history which I have given of 
facts, despatches, and intentions^ is there 
anywhere any sign of provocation, blood- 
guiltiness, desire for war, or of a conspiracy 
to bring about war ? I repudiate such an 
accusation. I am sure it has been based 
where it has been made on a misunder- 
standing of what has passed and a misap- 
prehension of facts. I am much more 
afraid of being told that I have been 
patient even to the point of weakness, 
that I have been moderate in the extreme. 
I confess that my only justi&cajbion in 
such a case would be that,, after all, 
although I do not hold the interests ol 
peace as supreme, they are thenoain object 
of every British statesman. We have 
been accused of failure to send reinforce- 
ments to the Cape and elsewhere as the 
matter became critical. That accusation 
has been made from the last qiuurter from 
which I should have expected it. It even 
appeared — veiled, but it was tkere — m 
the speech of the right hon. (gentleman 
the Leader of the Opposition. I tbink he 
said "long delay. [Sic- Hi.. CA^lFfiELL* 
Bannerman shook his head^} I under- 
stood him to say so. At all exentSy I do 
not think any accusation of that kind 
could come with a g^^d g;race from the 
benches opposite. That^ at all events^ 
must be admitted. But,, if it comes from * 
this side,, let me say in the first place that 
during these negotiations> and even before 
that, during the present Crovemment> the 
garrison of the South Afrioan ooloniesv 
which was originally something like 
3,000^ has been increased to 10,000, and 
from that to 25,000, at which 
it stands now. We have gradually 
increased oiu: resources there, with the 
object of at least putting ourselves in a 
proper defensive position. We were 
pressed thereto by our own colonists and 
by the Government of Natal. If any 
Government deserves, in this matter, our 
gratitude and consideration it is the 
Government of the colony of NataL 
Never before in the history of the difll- 
culties in South Africa has the Govern- 
ment of the colony so completely identi- 
fied itself with the mother country, and 
there are strong reasons which should 
I have pulled them in an opposite direction. 
; They «ire the people, we have seen, who 
were the first to bear the brunt of the 



497 Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} the Qmen's Speech, 



298 



•attack. They were, at the time when the 
negotiations were going on, and when at 
;any moment " a bolt from the blue " in 
the shape of an ultimatum might have 
jaroduced war — they were defenceless and 
-open to attack. Yet they have thrown 
in their lot, heart and soul, with the 
mother country, and certainly they are 
^entitled to our lasting gratitude. If, 
after all, even having done what we 
l^elieved to be best, on the advice which 
we received, humanly speaking, and 
ba>'ing taken sufficient and necessary pre- 
•cautions for a purely defensive attitude — 
.if it be asked, " Why did you not send 
.an Army Corps earlier," I might allude for 
a moment to the question of popular 
support upon which the right hon. Gen- 
tleman was rather sarcastic yesterday. I 
4;hink we speak of different things. When 
we are speaking of popular support, we 
are not thinking, as he appeared to be, of 
votes or strength given to a particular 
Government. We are thinking of the 
interests of the country. Sir, a great and 
serious war such as this is not one that 
any Government or statesman can con- 
template without serious misgivings. To 
carry on such a war with so many diffi- 
•colties and such complications, with a 
Kjountry seriously divided by a strict party 
line — that would be bad for the national 
interests. I do not see how a Govern- 
ment could satisfactorily prosecute a war 
lander such conditions, hampered and/ 
embarrassed at every turn. I do not see 
how — what is far more important — they 
•could ever arrange a satisfactory peace. 
It has been our earnest desire to carry 
with us, as far as it might be possible, 
"both parties in the country, to reduce our 
differences, if we have differences, cer- 
•tainly not to exaggerate them. If we had 
proposed a month ago to send an Array 
•Corps to South Africa, if we had come 
here with proposals to spend a million 
And a half on animals and eight and a half 
millions more on the necessary prepara- 
tions, would the party opposite, as a whole, 
have supported us "? The Leader of the 
Opposition, speaking on 6th October, 
three days before the ultimatum, declared 
that there was no need for military 
preparations. 

Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN : 
I do not think I used that phrase. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : No, I beg 
your pardon, you did not. You com- 
plained of the " despatch of troops." 



Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: 
I said troops had been despatched, and I 
think I said it here again the other day 
— that there had been an ostentatious 
despatch of detachment after detachment 
of troops, which had the same effect when 
you were conducting nominally friendly 
and necessarily in their intention concili- 
atory negotiations with a foreign Power 
as if, when you were conducting similar 
negotiations with a private individual, 
you all the time shook your fist in his 
face. That is a totally different matter 
from the action which the Government 
might have followed if they were satisfied, 
as they appear to have been some time 
ago, that war was necessary, a necessity 
which did not appear so plainly to me. 
But if they had been satisfied of that, 
then, of course, it was their duty, irre- 
spective of any criticism which might be 
passed, to send a sufficient force to sup- 
port that policy. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : I did not 
refer to this with the idea of making a 
point against the right hon. Gentleman. 
What I desire to emphasise is the position 
as between the two parties at the period 
to which I refer. If a month or more ago 
we had sent any large ])ody of troops to 
South Africa, hon. Gentlemen opposite, 
holding the opinions they did, must have 
opposed us, and the result would have 
been a party division which would have 
shown the country to have been seriously 
divided in a time of great crisis ; the 
Liberal party would have been more or 
less alienated, and our position, both at 
the moment and in future negotia- 
tions, seriously hampered. I am not 
ashamed to say that, having pro- 
vided for the defensive necessities of 
the case, our policy ^^'as to a certain 
extent modified, so far as offensive pre- 
parations were concerned, by a desire not 
to alienate the sympathies of hon. Gentle- 
men opposite. I am not ashamed to have 
taken that line, for it is a line that must 
have been taken by any Government 
under similar circumstances when con- 
templating the possibility of a great 
undertaking such as this. The right 
hon. Gentleman goes back to his conten- 
tion that the troops were ostentatiously 
despatched. I do not wish to add any- 
thing to what my right hon. friend the 
Leader of the House has said. I have 
always understood that by the necessities 

L 2 Third Day, 



299 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} iJie Queen's Speech. 



3oa 



of the case the War Office is the most 
leaky of all departments of State. 

Sir H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN : 
We had it in an answer to an inquiry last 
Slimmer that information Avas sent officially 
by the War Office to the press. The 
Secretary for War said so. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : A. par- 
ticular piece of information, certainly. 
Nobody denies that. But that is not the 
charge. The charge is that we con- 
tinuously over a long period sent forward 
detachments of troops and were always 
making a great demonstration. Very 
well. The answer to that is that it is 
absolutely impossible, and 1 believe it 
has always been so, to move a single 
regiment in this country without news of 
it getting into the newspapers. Well, I 
believe that I have now gone through all 
the heads of the speech of the right hon. 
(xeRtleman, and I have endeavoured in 
passing to meet other objections taken 
during the recess. Sir, we do not pre- 
tend that we are infallible, any more 
than any previous Government, but we 
do claim that as much as any previous 
(xovemment we are anxious for the 
honour and the interests of this country. 
And we think it is in consequence of that 
that we have received the great measure 
of support from the great mass of our | 
countrymen, and that we have seen that ; 
magnificent demonstration of loyalty, and | 
not only of loyalty, but of sympathy with 
our object, which has been made by our | 
self-governing colonies. Throughout these 
negotiations we have put first the objects 
we had in view, of maintaining the 
e(j[uality of th(» two races, of securing 
protection for British subjects, and confirm- 
ing and upholding the suzerainty of the 
Queen. A\ e have been, as I have shown, 
as anxious for peace as any man on the 
other side of the House, or in the countr}', 
})Ut we have held thjit there are things 
which are oven more important than 
peace itself, and in order to gain those 
things it is sometimes necessary to face 
the contingency of war. In our en- 
deavour to maintain peace we have shown 
the utmost conciliation, we have shown 
endless j)atience. We have run some 
risk, but we have never from the first to 
the Last for the sake of peace been pre- 
pcared either to betray our countrymen, or 
to <allow the paramountcy, or whatever 
you call it, to l)e taken from us. Presi- 
dent Kruger has settled the (juestion ; he 

Mr. J. Chamherhnn, 



has appealed to the God of bottles,^ and I 
say, with all reverence and gravity, we- 
accept the appeal, believing that we have 
our quarrel just. 

*SiR EDWARD CLARKE (Plymouth) r 
I think the House will understand that 
it is with reluctance I take part in this 
debate. The matter is a graTe* and 
serious one, and I wish I could hope that 
what I must say on the subject will be 
welcome and pleasant to friends sitting* 
around me. But I ask their forbearance. 
I will make no large claim on their 
patience, but there are things which it is 
my duty to say to-night. I have spoken 
on this subject outside the House, and, 
having so spoken, after wh^t has been 
said I feel it my duty to join in this 
debate. The Leader of the House, in 
answer to an attack hinted at by the 
Leader of the Opposition, but which the 
right hon. Gentleman does not appear to 
have courage to make directly, said that if 
the Government had been guilty oi errors' 
in the conduct of these negotiations, he 
would like to have those errors made 
known in the presence of the representa- 
tives of the people. It is because I have 
said elsewhere, and am prepared to say 
here, that I think there have been errors' 
in the conduct of negotiations I feel bound 
this evening to state clearly and distinctly 
what those errors are. Since I made that 
speech, a fortnight or more ago> I have 
read with the utmost care all that 
has appeared in the Blue Booka 
and in the public prints in re- 
gard to this matter. I ha^ie listened 
to-night to the speech of the Colonial 
Secretary, and if I had found it possible 
to get up and tell the House that I focmd 
I had made a mistake, that my opinion 
was expressed too hastily or upon imper- 
fect knowledge, I hope I should have had 
the courage — and it would require \t8» 
courage than for the speech I have to 
make to-night — to acknowledge my 
blunder. I would rather have confessed 
to a personal blunder and mistake than 
say a word in the nature of an attack on 
the Government or any member of the 
Government. But I am bound to say the 
more I read of the correspondence and 
I earn the circumstances of the case the 
more I am convinced of the errors in the 
negotiations, and that this lamentable war 
is al«olutely unnecessar}'. And I would 
add this — that if I had any doubt when I 
came into the House, the extraordinary 



301 Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 302 



statement which was made by the 
Colonial Secretary about half an hour 
ago with regard to the tenor and 
intention of his answer to the pro- 
posals of the Transvaal Government — 
that statement would have satisfied me 
that there have been most unfortunate 
and disastrous blunders in this matter. 
With a large part of the speech of the 
Colonial Secretary, of course, I have no 
concern. I am sure I shall be acquitted 
at once of concern or sympathy with the 
personal attack made upon the right hon. 
Gentleman yesterday from the other side 
of the House. So far am I from thinking 
that he was given a place in the Ministry 
which would take him out of contact with 
the work of this House and give him 
occupation sufficient to prevent his inter- 
fering with measures here — I say we 
never can be too grateful to him for the 
Workmen's Compensation Act, which I 
think the best measure this Parliament 
has passed, and I hope it is not necessary 
for me to say I absolutely dissociate 
myself from any personal attack. With 
the earlier part of the speech I have no 
fault to find. It is true we are all agreed 
there were grievances in the Transvaal, 
that the rights of British subjects had not 
been sufficiently respected, that our inte- 
rests were endangered by the bad govern- 
ment of the country, and that it was 
the imperative duty of this or any 
Government to use such measures as 
might rightly be employed to put an end 
to the grievances and to protect the 
interests of the inhabitants of the Trans- 
vaal. Nor am I concerned in the question 
of whether we were premature or dilatory 
in the despatch of troops. Of course, upon 
a matter like that all confidence must be 
^ven to the Ministers of the Crown; 
they act upon the circumstances as known 
to them, fiut on the middle part of the 
speech — I was going to say the smaller 
part of the speech connected with the 
Amendment, that is to say, the conduct of 
negotiations — I desire to say a few words. 
Let me in parenthesis say that I cannot 
help being very heavily oppressed by the 
thought of what we are doing upon 
entering upon this war. It is not that 
we have to fight with a large number of 
persons. When my hon. and gallant friend 
the Member for the Wellington Division of 
Somersetshire was speaking in moving the 
Address I could not help remembering 
that the whole Boer population of the 
^eat country in South Africa we are 



going to attack is equal to about a sixth 
of the population of that western county 
part of which he represents. The 
gravity of the proceeding is shown 
by the fact that in order to deal primarily 
with that small body of persons we 
are obliged to call out the reserves and 
militia, to send out a great army corps, to 
draw troops from India, and to accept 
contributions of troops from our great 
colonies. Seeing the efforts that are made 
for the prosecution of this war, one 
wonders what the country would do if 
ever we were engaged in a war with a 
great European Power. What is the 
reason, the necessity for these great 
preparations and this costly expedition ? 
The question which exists between you 
and this small body of persons is one 
which touches so many interests, which is 
connected with so many difficulties in 
other parts of South Africa, that it 
would have been worth anything for your 
diplomacy to have succeeded in healing 
the sores which existed there without 
raising all those difficulties which call 
on the country at this moment for 
such an enormous expenditure of force. 
The gravity of the matter has been fore- 
seen. We are told that during the time 
this Government has been in power the 
garrison in our South African possessions 
has been raised from a few thousand men 
to the very substantial number of 15,000. 

An Hon. Member: 25,000. 

Sir E. CLARKE: Of 25,000. More- 
over, there are suggestions that in the 
future, owing to the action we are now 
taking, and to the unhappy differences 
which must exist when this war is over, 
we shall have to keep a garrison of 
40,000 men in South Africa. It may or 
may not l)e so, but I think the best 
garrison that we could have established 
in our South African possessions would 
have been a faith in the perfect straight- 
forwardness and honour of the diplomacy 
of this country. I am very much afraid 
that the course of these negotiations has 
been such, however we may be able to 
justify ourselves, that we cannot expect 
from those with whom they have been 
carried on the admission that we have 
been straightforward, frank, and honest 
in our dealings with them. A good deal 
has been said about the question of the 
suzerainty. I do not propose to make 
many quotations to-night, but I shall be 
ready to support any statement I make 

Third Day. 



303 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech. 



304^ 



by a reference to the quotation if it is 
asked for. I think that course will be 
most convenient, and I will trust hon. 
Members to check any statement I make 
by a reference to the Blue Books. Much 
has been said about the suzerainty. I 
aid in the country, and I say here, that 
for anv British Minister since 1884 to 
assert that we have a suzerainty 
over the Transvaal is not only a state- 
ment made in defiance of fact, but also 
is a breach of national faith. Suzerainty 
was expressly provided for in the Conven- 
tion of 1881, but when the Convention 
of 1884 came to be made, suzerainty is 
not to be found mentioned in it at all. It 
is said that there were negotiations with 
regard to the matter at the time, and the 
right hon. Gentleman has said to-night 
that a proposal was made to Lord Derby 
that a Convention should be made in a 
particular ft)rm, expressly disavo^ving the 
suzerainty, and that he would not consent 
to the form or the substance of such a 
Con\'ention. That is perfectly tnie, but 
other things are to be remembered as 
well. The right hon. Gentleman read 
some words from the statement which 
Lord Derby made in the House of Lords, 
but the imix)rtant words of that state- 
ment were these — 

" We have abstained from usin^ the word 
* Ruzerainty ' because it is a word which is 
capable of misconstruction, and leads, may be, 
to misrepresentation and difficulty." 

Therefore, there was a deliberate absten- 
tion in 18S4, after conference and agree- \ 
ment with the delegates of the Transvaal, 
from the use of this word in the Con- 
vention, and the reason Lord Derby gave, 
as is stated by someone whose honour is 
not impugned, why they did not explicitly 
abandon the term " suzerainty " was that 
they were afraid to give to the then 
Opposition in the House of Commons, 
which was at that time troubling them 
very much with regard to Egyptian affairs, 
a further handle. 

Mk. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not 
think I can allow that to piiss. That 
statement was made by Mr. Faure. But 
Sir Robert Herbert — who, I think, is the 
only |)erson living who knows really inti- 
mfitely the history of the whole of this 
question — denies it. 

*Siii E. CLARKE: I l)eg pardon. 

Mk. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I assure 
the hon. Gentleman that Sir Robert 
Herbert disagrees entirely with Mr. Faure. 

.S/r /;. Clarl'f. 



I have had the opportunity of personally 
consulting with Sir Robert Herbert, and I 
say without hesitation that he considers 
that Mr. Faure was entirely mistaken. 

*Siii E. CLARKE : AllI can say is that 
Sir Robert Herbert's statement is in my 
hand. He says : 

" I have absolutely no recollection of that or 
any similar lanf^uage being used. I desire 
however, to add Uiat I in no way question tHe 
bona Jidcs of Mr. Faure's account of his re- 
membrance of this part of the contract." 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Oh, yes^ 

the bona fides, 

*SiR E. CLARKE: If Sir Robert 
Herbert does not remember any such 
language to have been used in his 
presence, but does not question the bona 
fides of the man who said he did bear it^ 
I confess I think there is some evidence 
that it was said. Let me pass to another 
point. The Boer delegates, after they 
had been to this country, had seen Lord 
Derby, and had discussed this question of 
suzerainty — and if hon. Gentlemen will 
refer to The Times' paragraphs of about 
that time they will find the question of 
the suzerainty was specially mentioned as 
one of the topics — went back to their own 
country and submitted a report to the 
Volksraad. That report, which was pub- 
lished in the papers at the time, stated 
that they had procured the abolition of 
the suzerainty. If there was a mistake 
about it it ought to have been corrected 
then ; but, as a matter of fact, from that 
time, when Loixl Derby spoke in the 
House of Lords, until October 16, 1897> 
when the Colonial Secretary re>'ived the 
claim of suzerainty in justifying a refusal 
to proceed to arbitration, that word 
j had never, so far as I know, been 
used by any Minister of the Crown or in 
any public document hanng regard to the 
Transvaal. I venture to say that if it is 
arguable whether the particular clause of 
the Convention of 1884 did create what 
could be called a suzerainty, at all 
events, it was a breach of faith to the 
Transvaal for any British Minister, after 
the lapse of fifteen years, to renew the claim 
attached to that word, which had been 
delil)erately abandoned after conference 
with Lord Derby. It is said that the 
suzerainty remains because the preamble 
to the Convention of 1881 remains. I 
i cannot imagine how anylx)dy can have 
I brought himself to believe that there is 
I any substance in that. The Convention 



305 



Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} tJie Queen's Speech. 306 



of 1881 recited in the preamble certain 
things, and then went on to make 
articles to give effect to them ; but the 
Convention of 1884 did not consist of 
new articles of an old Convention; 
it was called in terms a new Convention, 
and the new Convention was one with a 
preamble of its own appropriate to the 
position which was then created. The 
Transvaal at that time was, not made, 
but was recognised as an independent 
sovereign State, a State with which this 
country was negotiating on equal terms. 
A great deal has been said about the 
claim of the Transvaal to be an inter- 
national sovereign State. The Colonial 
Secretary has not said much about it, 
but a great deal has been said about 
it in the Blue Book. When that 
statement was made Sir A. Milner 
sent a telegram or despatch — one 
of those unfortunate telegrams and 
despatches which have been most un- 
necessarily published in this extraordinary 
way — in which he said this was clearly in 
opposition to Her Majest3^'s Government, 
and is in the nature of a defiance of Her 
Majesty's Government. Why should it 
be a defiance of us for the Transvaal to 
take one view of its own position and 
not a defiance of the Transvaal for us 
to take another view ? I really cannot 
understand. If it is a question as to 
how far the Transvaal was justified in 
looking upon itself as a sovereign State, 
I should like to refer to a quotation, and 
I think it will be a treat to the House 
to hear a new quotation which has not 
been read or published so far as I know 
in the course of these discussions. In 
1884 Lord Kimberley, representing the 
Government of the day in the House of 
Lords, was asked in that House how it 
was that the British Minister had signed 
the Convention with the Transvaal of 
1884, but had allowed six months to the 
Volksraad in which to signify its accept- 
ance of that Convention. Lord Kimberley 
replied, on 17th March, 1884— 

•• A treaty when conclude<l must be ratified 
by the sovereign power. Now, the sovereign 
power is not in the President of the Transvaal, 
out in the Volksraad itself, and the treaty 
must therefore be ratified by the Volksraatl 
there and the Qneen here. The noble Earl 
[Cadogan] also referred to another point, viz. , 
that in 1881 the delegates who concluded the 
Convention on the part of the Transvaal 
solemnly engaged to see that the Convention 
of that year should be ratified. The noble 
Earl will see that there is a considerable ditfer- 
ence in the two cases. There was then no 



established government in the Transvaal. The 
persons with whom we negotiated were dele- 
gates of the Boers, and that is a wholly 
different case from the present when there is 
an established government, and the delegates 
are acting under the ordinary authority given 
them by the State.'* 

The leader in the House of Lords of the 
then Grovernment, therefore, himself de- 
scribed the Volksraad as being the sove- 
reign power with which this country was 
entering into a Convention. Now, of 
course, the Transvaal is not an unlimited 
sovereignty. It is limited by one par- 
ticular article, but the Transvaal is 
a sovereign Power. It has inter- 
national rights. It is entitled to receive 
Ambassadors or the representatives 
of Foreign States. It is entitled to 
send its own representatives to Foreign 
States, and the only limit upon its 
sovereign power is that all treaties made 
by it with Foreign States — which it 
is perfectly free to make — are not valid 
unless within six months they are ratified 
by Her Majesty's Government. That is 
a derogation from its sovereignty, but it 
does not destroy the sovereignty. That 
the Transvaal is an international Power 
in another sense we cannot dispute. We 
have ourselves on two occasions entered 
into treaties with the Transvaal for arbi- 
tration upon the terms of the Conventions. 
Having said so much upon these points, 
, let me sav this. I am amazed to hear 
I what the Colonial Secretary says with re- 
gard to these matters. He says they are not 
of importance, and that in the answer of 
the Transvaal which was given in August 
of this year they were, in fact, waived. I 
will come to that in a moment, but I want 
to see what is really the history of this 
matter. There is no use whatever in 
going back before the time of the Bloem- 
fontein Conference. Now what were the 
instructions given to Sir A. Milner before 
that Conference ? — 

" Lay all the stress on the question of the 
franchise in the first instance. Other reforms 
are less pressing, and vnW come in time if that 
can l)e arranged .satisfactorily." 

Other matters were mentioned, but Sir 
Alfred Milner went to that Conference 
and told President Kruger that if they 
could come to an agreement upon the 
franchise the other questions would either 
solve themselves or could be dealt with by 
arbitration. The Conference broke down. 
A proposal was made by Sir Alfred 
Milner which President Kruger would not 
accept, and in reply made a proposal for a 

Third Day. 



307 Address in Answei' to {COMMONS} the QaeerCs Speech, 



ao8 



nine years franchise, which is described 
by the Colonial Secretary as an absolutely 
insufficient and foolish proposal. What 
happened after? Almost directly after 
the Conference had broken down the 
Transvaal addressed a despatch to this 
country asking for arbitration upon the 
matters which were in dispute. Before 
that despatch was handed in Sir Alfred 
Milner suggested to the representative of 
the Transvaal that if the franchise were 
promptly and satisfactorily dealt with 
other things might easily be arranged. 
Upon that hint the Transvaal acted. We 
talk about criminal obstinacy and their 
making no advance. It is absolutely 
absurd. There was a session of the 
Volksraad. They prepared a reform Bill 
by which a franchise of seven years 
was given and a certain number of seats 
were given to the Rand, and in 
a single fortnight that Reform Bill was 
passed, and by July 26 the Uitlanders 
were being enrolled as naturalised 
burghers under the provisions of that 
Act. On July 27 the Colonial Secretary 
wrote a despatch in which he recognised 
that this was a great advance, and he 
went on to say what was perfectly true — 
that one could not possibly tell, except 
by a little experience and investigation, 
how far the seven years franchise would 
give the Uitlanders a fair share in the 

fovernment. That was on the 27th July, 
ut that despatch was not presented to 
the Boer Government until the 23rd of 
August. It was held back for this 
reason — that it Avas suggested to the 
Transvaal Government or by the Trans- 
vaal Government (it is not material with 
whom the idea originated) that it might 
be expedient to make a further proposal 
which would suit this country better, and 
so avoid the necessity of the inquiry into 
the effect of a seven vears franchise, be- 
cause it was thought that if a five years 
franchise was granted there would be no 
necessity for that inquiry. With regard 
to the application made to the Transvaal 
not to go on with the pa-ssinej of that Act 
through the Volksraarl until Her Majesty's 
Government had had an opportunity of 
expressing an opinion upon its sufficiency, 
it is not the fact that this application was 
refused. A draft copy of the Bill had 
been handed to our representative at Pre- 
toria, and the answer given when that 
request was made was that the Bill was 
rcfuly for submission or had been sub- 
mitted to the Volksraad, and it was im- 

Sir E. Clarke, 



possible for the Minister to stop the pro- 
ceedings of the Raad. President Kru^r 
has had much difficulty with the Vo&s- 
raad. I think he has on many occasions 
shown himself a moderator and an influence 
on the side of peace, but if he had gone 
to the Volksraad and said: ** I propose we 
should adjourn the discussion until the 
British Colonial Secretary has had an 
opportunity of telling us what he thinks 
about the Bill " — of course such a message 
would not have been listened to by any- 
body. It is said in many newspapers 
that the Transvaal insisted on our dis- 
avowing and \nthdrawing our claim to 
suzerainty. The Transvaal Government 
did nothing of the kind. The Transvaal 
stipulated that there should in future be 
no use of the word which had been aban- 
doned in 1884, and that the controversy 
on the subject should be allowed to drop. 
Now, I agree with the right hon. Member 
for West Monmouth that there was good 
reason why the conditions attached to 
the five years franchise proposal should 
have been accepted. The extraordinary 
incident that has marked the proceedings 
of this evening has been the statement of 
the Colonial Secretary that the answer to 
that proposal might have been taken as 
an acceptance. That was the phrase he 
used, but it is an ambiguous phrase, and I 
should like to know — Was that answer 
intended as an acceptance ? 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: At that 
time we thought the proposal of the 
Transvaal extremely promising. We 
intended to send a most condliatory 
answer, accepting, as far as it was 
humanly possible for us to do so, their 
proposal, and, as the only point of diffe- 
rence was the internal intervention, I 
thought myself it would be accepted. 

*SiR E. CLARKE : Then I take it that 
it was intended to be an acceptance of 
that proposal. Now, Mr. Speaker, if that 
were so,' if, in fact, the Colonial Secretary 
intended to accept the proposals of the 
Transvaal, then undoubtedly this Amend- 
ment is proved up to the hilt. But I do 
not think that anvone can read the 
despatch which was sent on September 8 
and reconcile it with the statement which 
is now made. Just let me put this to the 
House. Suppose when the Colonial 
Secretary got that proposal of August 19 
he intended to accept it, what would have 
been, might have been, ought to have 



Address in Amiver lo {19 October 1899) the Queen's ^teefh. 



309 

been hia answer 1 That we do iwcept, 
that while we claim the right which any 
Government has to interfere for the pro- 
tection of its subjects, we do not claim 
any right beyond that which we have 
imder the Convention of 1884, or a right 
which arises in consequence of our posi- 
tion in Africa ; and he might have gone 
-on to say that as to the suzerainty, if 
objection is taken to the use of the word, 
we do agree that it shall not be used in 
future, and that the discussion as to 
whether we are suzerains or not shall be 
tacitly allowed to drop. That is the 
obvious answer that would have been 
given by anyone who intended to accept 
such a proposal. But what was the 
-answer given J I crave the indulgence of 
the House for a moment while I refer to 
this. The answer that was actually given 
was — 

" Her Majesty's Government liave con^ 
tdclered the propoMJa which the Soutli African 
Repablic Govemaieat, in their notes to the 
Bntich Agent of 19th and 21st Aucuxt, have 
put forward as an alternative to ttiose con- 
tained in my telegram of Slst July. Her 
Majesty's Government assume that the adop- 
tion in principle of the franchise proposals 
made by you at Bloeitifontein will not be 
hampered by any conditions whicli ivooUl 
impau- their efTect. 



pnbhc ; first, 
Majesty's Govemnient hope that tlie ful- 
filment of tlie promises mode, an<l the juit 
treatment of the Uitlandev in future, 



310 

was all that they asked for- He has just 
said that we tacitly agreed to allow the 
correspondence to drop, and that, as he 
has already declared, it was our intention 
to do. 

*SlR E. CLARKE : Supposing that to 
be so, there was an obvious miaunder- 
j standing. The stipulation that you would 
discontinue the use of the word and allow 
the controversy tacitly to drop is not 
answered by a reference to another des- 
patch, which says that you are not going 
to continue the controversy. But I must 
point out that that answer which was, aa 
we know now, intended to be an acceptance 
of the proposal made on 19th August, was 
sent by telegraph on 28th August. On 
2nd September the Transvaal Government 
answered it, regretting that Her Majesty's 
Government " have not been able to 
decide on accepting the proposal for a 
five years franchise," and then they go 
on to say this — 

" PaasjQK now to the discussion of the obser- 
vations of Her Majesty's Government on the 
conditions attached by this Government to the 
proposal, whicli lias now lapsed in conseiiaence 
of the non-acceptance by Her Majesty's 
Government of these stipulations, the Govern- 
ment wishes to observe (n) that with reference 
to the question of intervention, this Govem- 
nient has neither asked, nor utended, that 
Her Majesty's Government should abaniloD 
any right which it really might have, on the 
ground either of the Convention of London, 1894, 
or of international law, to intervene for the 
protection of British subjects in this country ; 
(£) that as regarils the assertion of suzerainty 



ha.*, 



.sthi 



Governiuent cannot, of course, debar'the"n_ 
selves from their rishts under the Conventions, 
nor divest themselves of the ordinary obliga- 
tions of a civilised Power to protect its subjects 
in a foreign country from injustice. 

"Secondly, with regsnl to suzerainty Her 
Majesty's Giovemment would refer the Govern- 
ment of the South African liepublic to the 
Mcond paragraph of my despatch of July 13." 
The second paragraph of the July de- 
spatch is this — 

" Her Majesty's Government concur gener- 
ally in the views Bxj)re88ed in your ilespatch, 
md have no intention of continuing to (Ubcuks 
this question with the Government of the 
Republic, whose contention that the South 
African Republic is b. sovereign international 
State is not, in their opinion, warranted either 
by law or history, and is wholly inadmis- 

By all means, but where is the accept- 
ance 1 

Mb. J. CHAMBERLAIN : We had no 
intention of pursuing the controversy, i 
what the hon. Gentleman has just said : 



tureii to think, already been so clearly stated 
in its despatch of Itith April, IHOtt, that it 
would be Buperttuoas to re|>eat here the facts, 
argnmeuta, ami deductions stated therein ; it 
simply wishes to remark here that it abides 
by Its Wews expressed in tbat despatch-" 
Now, if the despatch of 28th August 
had been misunderstood, and if the 
Transvaal Government ought to have 
taken it as an acceptance of their condi- 
tions, why was not that said 1 But so far 
from it being said, a despatch was written 
which destroys the right hon. Gentleman's 
suggestion that it was an acceptance. 
The despatch was sent on 8th Sep- 
tember — 

" Her Majesty's Government understand the *" 
Note of the South African Republic Govern- 
ment of 2nd September to mean that their 
proposals made m their Note of IDtli Augost 
are now withdrawn because the reply of Her 
Majesty's (-ONemment contained in their Note 
of 30th with regard to future intenention and 
suzerainty Ih not acceptaltle. Her Majesty's 
(iovemment have absolutely repudiated the 
view of the political status ot the South 
Third Day. 



311 Addre.^^s in Armcer to {COMMONS} the Queens Speech. 312 

African Republic taken by the Government of ; Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : It was 
the South African Republic in their Note of 
16th April, 1898, and also in their Note of 9th 
May, 1899, in which they claim the status of a 
sovereign international State" — 

In our telegram of 28th August no 
reference is made whatever to the claim 
to be a sovereicm international State — 



communicated. 

*SiR E. CLARKE : I have no doubt its 
substance was delivered. It was tele- 
graphed on 27th July, and communi- 
cated to the Transvaal Government im» 
_ __„ mediately after that, but not formally 

and they are,"'therefore,"unaWe to"consider ! delivered until 23rd August^ when these 
any proposal which is made conditional on the proposals were all known to Her Majesty s 
acceptance by Her Majesty's Government of Grovernment. What was the situation, 
these views." then, when the despatch was formally 

The proposal had never been made condi- delivered to the Transvaal Grovernment ? 
tional on their acceptance. On 22nd August the right hon. gentle- 

\T« 1 r«xj\Af-DT?x>T A TXT Tn, I. mau rctcivcd these proposals which we 
Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. j 4. j u ik-^^ 4.^ „^^^^4. 

xf 1 , xu _j i. now understand he was willing to accept, 

Memljer harps upon the word acceptance. 1 . 1 • • j ^.u ^ ™,x^„io v.^ 

xj 4. v u 1 J 4.U but havinoj received these proposals on 

He must remember he asked me the ooj a^-u 4.1 ^««iwv^^r, oqw^ 

.• r ., • i. J J i. 4. 22nd Auffust he teleeraphed on lova 

question whether we mended to accept. ^ to deUver to the IrJisvaal Govern- 

Wself, should have thought that the S ^^ ^^^^^ ^ 

ijoers would have taken it as an accept- • . . r- ji t -u-^ 4.1,^ ^w>t^«.«i 

1 . T •<. u 1 ceivmg in a fnendly fashion the proposal 

ance, but I suppose it may be proper^- ^^^ ^^ J^ franchise ^e 

descnl>edas a qualified acceptance, ^^e Government then refused to go any further 

did no accept everything, but we accepted ^j^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ fTop<Sa\s of 19th 

at least nine-tenths of the whole. August. It would have been perfectly 

*SiR E. CLARKE : Really, this becomes right to say, " You have misunderstood 

more and more sad. It is dreadful to our answer, we intended in substance to 

think of a country of this kind entering accept your offer," but not only did they 

upon a war, a crime against civilisation, not do that, but they distinctly refused to 

when this sort of thing has been going on. discuss the seven years franchise, which 

WTiy, in the ver}" next sentence, the right had been dealt with in favourable terms 

hon. Gentleman says — by the despatch delivered on 23rd August. 

" It is on this ground that Her Majesty's There was here a lamentable departure 

Government have been compelled to regard from the course which our oppo- 

the last proposal of the Government of the ^ents might have expected us to take. 

South African Republic as unacceptable in jr „^„^A.iZt.-„„ „„^ ,wv;r»«. -tnt, -«-;fV» o mon 

the form in which tt has been presented." ^^ negotiations are going on i^ ith a man, 

^ and you have come very near a conclu- 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : In the form, gjon, and he has made a proposal which 

♦Sir E. CLARKE : Is it a matter of form? you may not think adequate and 

PWA vfRFT?T ATxr V Sufficient, but which gives a basis of 

:Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : Yes. agreement, and if he then makes another 

*SiR E. CLARKE ; With regard to the proposal intended to cut short the discus- 
point made by the right hon. Gentleman sion by making some other arrangement 
opposite in his speeches in the country and you refuse that — why, in common- 
and in this House, that the conditions sense and honesty you ought to keep 
which were attached to the proposal of open the proposals which you have been 
August 1 9 were conditions which might considering before. Sir, I confess that I, 
have been accepted, we know now that so for one, cannot see any answer to the 
little objection was there made to them suggestion that at that time of stress and 
that a despatch was sent, which, it was difficulty Her Majesty's Government 
supposed, woidd be considered by the would have acted wisely either in making 
Transvaal Government as an acceptance, clear the acceptance of the proposab oi 
Suppose other^nse. Suppose the pro- August 19, over which there had been a 
posals were so bad that they might be misapprehension, or in saying, "After this 
deemed to be rejected. In what period alternative proposal is out of the way we 
did this happen 1 The despatch in which i will go on negotiating upon the basis 
the right hon. Gentleman said that the existing before, and try to bring them to 
offer of the seven years franchise was far [ a conclusion." But not only did they get 
in advance of anything promised before, \ rid of the proposal of tne five years 
and that it formed a basis upon which | franchise by not accepting the conditions^ 
matters might be discussed by a joint Com- 1 and then saying that they refused to go 
mission, was kept back until August 23. ' back to the discussion of the seven years 
Si7- A'. Clarke. 



H 



313 Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 314 



franchise, they actually made the fact 
that the Transvaal Government had pro- 
posed a five, years franchise a reason for 
saying, " You have actually admitted that 
a five years franchise will not do you 
any harm and we will not go back." 
From that time the question was hope- 
less. There was one further attempt 
made by the Transvaal Government 
to bring matters to a conclusion. 
In the answer of 2nd September there 
was a discussion of a question of a joint 
commission. It was pointed out to them 
that they had not in terms accepted the 
joint commission proposed in the despatch 
of 27th July, and on 8th September the 
Transvaal Government sent a telegraphic 
communication asking her Majesty's 
Government to add to their note a clause 
stating that they accepted the joint 
commission. Unfortunately, time went 
on. Parliament, unhappily, was not 
sitting. 

♦Mr. JOHN BURNS (Battersea): It 
never is when South African affairs should 
be discussed. 

♦Sir E. CLARKE: I have heard it 
often said, and I think said with a good 
deal of truth, that there are many dangers 
to the peace of the world in discussions 
which take place in this House with 
regard to foreign matters, and I believe 
the representatives of the Foreign Office 
sleep the more soundly and peacefully 
when Parliament is not sitting. But in 
this' case we have had a specimen of what 
is called the new diplomacy. Everything 
has been published whether it oueht 
to have been published or not, ana I 
am convinced that if this House had 
been sitting during the month of 
August and the first week of Septem- 
ber there would have been no war with 
the Transvaal. We should have secured 
without war the five yeai*s franchise, 
which Sir Alfred ^lilner said was better 
than any proposal that he himself had 
made, or we should, at all events, have 
had seven years franchise with an inquiry 
by joint commission and arbitration on 
every other point. I said that I was 
reluctant to intervene in this matter. 1 1 
is a great pain to me to take to night a 
course which separates me in judgment 
and in action from many of my colleagues, 
but it is impossible for me to do other- 
wise. We have had a specimen of the 
new diplomacy. If I had read these 
Blue &oks not knowing the persons 
who were concerned in the matter, I con- 



fess that I should have been forced to 
the conclusion that the correspondence 
was conducted not with a view to peace. 
I do not believe that for a moment. We 
have had the statement of the right hon. 
Gentleman that he has been working for 
peace, but if he has been working for 
peace in this matter I cannot help saying 
that a more clumsy correspondence is 
not to be found in the records of diplo- 
matic action, and it seems to me that the 
publication of certain despatches in these 
Blue Books has been most unfortunate. 
It was competent for Sir Alfred Milner to 
send a confidential statement to the CJolo- 
nial Secretary telling him freely what he 
thought. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN : They were 
not confidential ; they were sent for pub- 
lication. 

Sir E. CLARKE: The right hon. 
Gentlemen says they were sent for pub- 
lication. 

Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I have 
already said that that particular despatch 
was for publication. 

Sir E. CLARKE : I am not referring 
to one despatch only. There are a 
number of them. As one travels along 
the Blue Book one finds these despatches 
from Sir Alfred Milner. The Blue Books 
are full of despatches whose publication 
could not have been of any use except to 
make the Transv<aal more suspicious, 
while they are also filled with obser- 
vations from Cape newspapers, with 
reports of public meetings at which 
violent speeches have been made with 
regard to the Transvaal, with anonymous 
affidavits as to outrages and threats used 
towards this countr}'. We are told a 
most extraordinary thing with regard to 
the object of the Blue Books. We 
are told on the highest authority 
that it is desirable to inform the 
public mind, to raise the public interest 
and sympathy for the Government. 
Yes, if the Government were going 
in the direction of war these Blue Books 
were the very things to excite sympathy 
and support for them in this country, and 
to excite a feeling in the Transvaal which 
was as hostile to the preservation of peace 
as was the excitement of a violent war 
feeling here. I think the course which 
these negotiations have been allowed 
to take is greatly to be regretted. I 
should have been wanting in duty to 
myself if I had not here said what I have 

Third Day. 



515 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech. 



316 



said elsewhere with regard to them. I 
should like to say one personal word to 
the hon. friends around me. I have been 
for thirty years in active political life. I 
have been for twenty years a diligent 
worker in the affairs of this House. I 
think I can say that during that time I 
have been imwavering in my fidelity to 
the leaders of my party in this House. 
Except on one occasion, when I made a 
speech with regard to the financial rela- 
tions of Ireland, I have not in this House 
spoken against the course which my 
leaders were taking. It is, therefore, a 
great pain to me to speak so now. But 
my work for the party has been amply 
and completely rewarded. No sort of 
reward or gratitude remains due to me 
from the party or its leaders. It has 
been rewarded by my being permitted for 
some years to be one of the law 
officers of the Crown; it has been 
rewarded more than that by the constant 
friendship, and I hope I may say the con- 
fidence of the right hon. Gentleman whose 
follower I am proud to be. A reward, 
too, has been given to me which is, per- 
haps, better than anything else, and that 
has been the opportunity afforded to me 
of taking a sometimes not inconspicuous 
part in the discussions of this House. 
But I am bound to speak this. No man 
-can know he is right, but he can know 
whether his opinion is an honest one, 
whether it is absolutely unbiassed by any 
question of personal interest, or by the 
more subtle influence of personal an- 
tagonism. I know that my opinion is an 
honest one, though it may not be right. I 
hope by-and-by my hon. friends who now 
Are feeling angry and hurt at my conduct 
may remember that there is a deeper and 
a truer loyalty to party than that loyalty 
which is expressed in the constant going 
into the division lobby at the bidding of 
the Whip. I think they will acquit me 
of any disloyalty to the party for having, 
as I have done, striven to prevent my 
country from suffering the calamity, and 
my party from suffering the reproach, of 
ha\'ing embarked on an unnecessary war. 

Mr. HALDANE (Haddington): No 
one who has heard the hon. and learned 
Gentleman can fail to appreciate the 
sincerity and the high motives by which 
he is inspired. In the elocjuent words that 
he has uttered he has given another proof 
of the public spirit and devotion he has 
always shown to the public cause. But 
while the hon. and learned Gentleman 

Sir E, Clarke. 



has spoken in terms of ^eat emotion of 
the responsibility which is upon him, 
that responsibility is not felt by him 
alone. There are others of us on this 
side of the House who feel ourselves, to 
our sorrow and to our pain, separated 
from those with whom we have often 
worked, and with whom in the future 
we hope to work again. The hon. and 
learned Member has put forward a view 
of this correspondence, and if I could 
agree with him that the correspondence 
could be taken by itself and separated from 
the situation as between the two parties, 
I should feel that there were several points 
upon which I could agree with him ; but I 
am wholly unable to take that view, ^d 
isolate it from the situation of t^ 
Governmetit and this country in connec- 
tion with the Transvaal. I will put in 
a sentence what the difiference between 
my hon. and learned friend and myself 
is on this momentous issue. As I nave 
endeavoured to follow the situation in 
South Africa as it is and as it has been 
for many years past, there is one instance 
in particular which is analogous to it. At 
the time of the Franco-Prussian War, a 
French critic, the late M. Prevost-Paradol, 
compared the two countries to two ex- 
press trains afar off, coming in the 
direction of each other on the same line. 
He - said it was only a question of time 
and only a miracle could stop the inevit- 
able collision. My view in this case is 
the same, and the only thing which could 
have stopped the calamitous collision was a 
complete change of policy on the part of Pre- 
sident Kniger. I ask now on whom does the 
burden of blame lie in this controversy — 
on the people of this country or upon the 
burghers of the Transvaal ? If the House 
will bear with me I will go back a few 
years as to the position of the Trans- 
vaal, because it is absolutely essential 
to appreciate what the situation was that 
the Government had to face. Gk>ing 
back nearly twenty years, immediately 
after the Convention of Pretoria in 1881 
had been negotiated, an attitude made 
itself manifest in the Transvaal so wholly 
uncertain as to necessitate the well- 
known interview between Sir Hercules 
Robinson, Sir Evelyn Wood, and President 
Kruger. In the report of that inter- 
view I find the following : — 

President : Before annexation liad Britidi 
Hubjects complete freedom of trade throoglMat 
the Pransvaal ; were they on the same footing 
as citizenH of the Transvaal ? 

Mr. Kruuer : They were on the same foot- 



317 Address in Answer to {19 October 1899} the Queen's Speech. 31 ^ 

iiijg as the burghers ; there was not the but what you have in Ireland is in^ 

slight^t difference in accordance with the tensified in the Transvaal You have 
Sand River Ck>nvention. •!. i_ • j.i_ j. ^ e a.\. 

President : I presume you will not object » mmonty having the control of the 

to that continuing ? 

Mb. Kruger : No. There will be equal 
piotection for anybody. 

Sir E. Wood : And equal privileges ? 

Mr. Kruger : We make no difference so 
far as burgher rights are concerned. 

♦Dr. CLARK (Caithness) : Go on. 

♦Mr. speaker : Order, order ! The 
hon. Member must not interrupt an hon. 
Member in his remarks because he does not 
read so much as the hon. Gentleman desires. 

Mr, HALDANE: I am sorry that I 
have not the Paper before me at the 
moment. However, the interview resulted 
in a promise of equal burgher rights for 
all white inhabitants, and this promise 
was given in words which were 
not ambiguous. The Convention of 
Pretoria was given, therefore, on the 
solemn pledge of President Kruger that 
all burgher rights would be given. In 1882 
the franchise, which before that time was 
obtainable by everybody after two years' 
residence, was raised to five years, and in 
1897 the five years was further increased 
to fifteen, and the Uitlander population 
wafl still further cut off from participating 
in the government of the country. In 
1890 President Kruger found it necessary 
to make some provision for the repre- 
sentation of the Uitlanders, and made it 
in the Second Raad, which is a body 
having no power of veto over the First 
Raad, a body having no power to consider 
the question of taxation, so important in 
the view of the Uitlanders, who paid by 
far the greater proportion ; a body in the 
position to which some of us on this 
side, including my hon. friend the 
Member for Northampton, have expressed 
a wish, I think, to reduce one of our own 
Chambers. The privilege offered them 
by President Kruger was one which gave 
the Uitlanders no power of making their 
voices heard on the topic which touched 
them most of all, taxation. In 1894 
another change in the franchise was intro- 
duced of such a complicated character 
that it was practically impossible for any 
substantial number of persons, who had 
not already obtained the franchise, to 
obtain it at all. The position then was 
that the Uitlander population was put at 
the mercy, so far as political power was 
concerned, of the Transvaal Government. 
In Ireland we have an instance of the 
same relation, the relation of which we 
have often spoken as that of ascendency ; 



majority, and you have a condition 
of things in the Transvaal more nearly 
approximating to Ireland a hundred 
years ago, before the Union, than now,. 
Now, how is that power used ? It wa& 
first brought into operation in the 
policy of taxation. Directly gold' was 
found a modification took place in 
taxation under which the Uitlander paid 
from £16 to £20 for every £4 paid by 
the burgher, the teaching of the English 
language in the State schools was pro- 
hibited after the fourth standard, and 
no Englishman could carry a gun^ or 
even go out for a day's shooting, 
although he was compelled to con- 
tribute to furnish rifles to every male 
Boer of the State. The Government was 
administered, not on the footing that we 
are used to, but on a system of monopolies, 
concessions, and corruption, which made 
it impossible to count on getting any just 
treatment at the hands of the Executive, 
With regard to this matter, I am content 
to have the question tested by the report 
of the Industrial Commission which was 
made in June, 1897. That Commission- 
was composed exclusively of persons in 
the burgher interest, and it reported unani- 
mously that a substantial part of the 
mining industry was being crushed out by 
the burden of taxation which was put upon 
it. It pointed out that only a small pro- 
portion of the mines were paying, and 
that others could be made to pay. They^ 
made the statement that the black labour 
was being demoralised by the drink 
laws, under which concessions were 
given to persons from the outside to- 
come in and furnish drink to the Kaffir 
population without any regard to their 
well-being. The report pointed out that 
every article of daily consumption was so 
heaA'ily taxed as to make the high wages 
given in reality not high at all when the 
cost of living was taken into consideration. 
All these things were reported by the 
Industrial Commission, only to have the 
report scrutinised by a hostile Raad, and' 
to have the members of the Commission 
themselves denounced as traitors to their 
countr}% and there was no redress. The 
outcome of that situation has been a 
marriage of ascendency with oppression, 
and a progeny of rebellion. You were 
always face to face with events like the 
Raid of 1895. I have always thought 
i that was one of the mi calamitous 



319 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Speech. 320 



thiiigs of the whole story ; it was one of 
those things by which we are judged by 
foreign Powers ; but, after all, .weak and 



real question is the larger one. It is 
impossible to ignore the fact that the 
main contentious features of the con- 



silly as the Raid was, was it not as much an troversy were contained in the conversar 
effectasacause? was not the state of feeling , tions of the Bloemfontein Conference 
out of which it arose the direct consequence Nothing could be more moderate and 
of this cutting down of the franchise which conciliator}'^ than the tone adopted there 
I sketched out, which came into existence | by Sir Alfred Milner, and I cannot agree 
immediately after the Convention of 1881, I with my hon. and learned friend that 
and went on increasing in volume and in- President Kruger and his advisers were 
tensity up to 1895 1 Why is the feeling so so ignorant of the position of affairs in 
intense in many parts of this country 1 Be- this country. I have followed the fran- 
cause in every district there are families chise proposals, and I am bound to say 
who have relatives in the Transvaal — I have come to the conclusion that 
men who have worked in the mines, and, throughout the whole Conference Presi- 
as superintendents and artisans and so i dent Kruger did not desire to come to an 
forth, who have written back, and some j understanding. Sir Alfred Milner pointed 
of them have come back in disgust and out he was not asking for a majority vote 
despair, declaring, as free-bom Englishmen, I for the Uitlander population, but a 
they will no longer submit to be under the minority representation which would 
treatment of the Boers. They are not pluto- enable them to make their voices heard, 
crats, these men, nor do they, or those i The proposals which were then brought 
who are backing them, live in Park Lane, i before the Raad for this purpose gave no 
I do not desire to speak further on this ; real representation to the Uitlanders at alL 
matter and make things wc«-se than they i They were so elaborate that they must 
are. I have come to the conclusion that \ have been prepared l3efore President 
there was a state of things absolutely i Kruger came to the Conference at all, 
unbearable, and that unless President I and they must have been prepared by 
Kniger could effect a change in the ways , skilled advisers, who knew they were 
of his Grovernment, the collision between | nugatory and intended them to be so. 
Uitlanders and theTransvaal Government . President Kruger then introduced another 
iind the Government of this country was ! Bill without consulting anybody on behalf 
inevitable. People have asked, could not ; of the Imperial authorities, which he said 
those Uitlanders have stayed away, and | was to effect the thing which the 
-why did they not stay away ? Under i other Bill did not. That Bill was as bad 
the Conventions of Pretoria and London | as the other, and would not serve the 
they had a right to go there, and they j purpose of Sir Alfred Milner, which was 
had been invited to go there. In the j to get a real substantial, although a 
production of gold not much has been j minority representation for the Uitlanders, 
xlue to the Boers, and through that ' to enable them to make their grievances 
foreign industry the wealth of the country known and have them discussed. Then 
\as been increaBed. These men have come i came a third Bill, as to the result of 
and settled and furnished the revenue, and , which the Government were not sanguine 
«on tribute to the prosperity of the country, after what had happened to the two pre- 
And contributed to put it into its present Wous Bills. Proljablv what was in the 



state of efficiency, and that under the 
guarantees offered to them by the Trans- 



minds of the representatives of the 
Government, at the moment at which they 



vaal Oovemment. If we had not inter- are said to have been bound either to ac- 
fered, if we had not come to them, cept or reject in clear terms, was that there 
they would have gone away from us, j was no real desire on the part of the 
and it was morally impossible for us | Transvaal Government to settle the matter 
to leave our countrj'men, which con- and to give such representation as the 
stitutes a great majority of the popula- Uitlanders desired. Sir Alfred Milner 
tion, under a system of treachery , pointed that out, and if you come to that 
which was bound to lead them, sooner or j conclusion what do you say of the subse- 
later, on to revolution. It has been ! quent despatches] The Transvaal Govem- 
attempted to discuss the diplomatic rela- , ment at that time were anxious to be off, 
tions in this matter as if they referred | and not anxious to make any proposition 
simply to the written documents, which , unless it suited their purposes, and their 
my honourable and learned friend oppo- ; purposes exclusively. I am not prepared 
site has so skilfully discussed. But the | to say that if the express trains had been 

Mr. Haldane, 



321 Address in Anstver to {19 October 1899} the Qxi^erCs Speech, 322 

^owed to travel yet a further distance the 
collision would not have been worse. The 
Transvaal is getting richer, and time is with 
them and against us, and they saw if they 
could carry on the existing conditions into 
A sufficient period of the future they would 
be in a still stronger position to resist 
Any demands made upon them. I desire 
to reserve all my rights and duties as a 
member of the Opposition when the time 
<x>mes, if indeed it ever comes, for criticis- 
ing the diplomacy in this matter, and there 
may be a great deal to be said upon the 
points, but this is not the true question 
"before us. This Amendment is meant to be 
A censure on the policy of the Government, 
taken broadly, and it is suggested that 
there should be another policy. I think on 
this question we have come to two diver- 

f;ent ways where there is no middle course. 
f this Amendment suggests that the 
Government is to blame and that Presi- 
dent Kruger is not, I can regard it only 
in the light of a motion that should be 
resisted to the utmost hy voice and vote. 



♦Mr. C. p. SCOTT (Lancashire, Leigh) : 
The hon. Member who spoke last assigned 
a ground for this war which, I think, 
deserves a little more attention than it 
has received. The ground which he put 
forward, | first, in justification of this 
terrible war — a war which, I have no 
doubt, both parties in this House sincerely 
regret — was an alleged breach on the part 
of the Transvaal Government of solemn 
obligations in virtue of which the Conven- 
tion of 1881 granting them their inde- 
pendence was passed. His words were 
very clear. He said: — 

" A solemn promise of equal burgher rights 
was given, on which, and on which alone, the 
Convention v/as allowed to go througli." 

Now, this serious statement on the part of 
a man so eminent as the hon. and learned 
Member for Haddington is a sample of 
the kind of ground on which this war has 
been justified and of the utter recklessness 
which has throughout characterised the 
defence of the war. But the hon. 
Member for Haddington does not stand 
alone in this statement. On the 27th of 
July the Leader of the Opposition made 
a speech, in which he for the first time — 
so far as I am aware — alleged that there 
had been certain solemn and definite 
undertakings given by the Government 
of the Transvaal on the strength of 
which their independence had been 
granted, and the violation of which 
constituted a grave and serious breach 



of faith. On the very next day the 
same statement was repeated by the 
Colonial Secretary, and when we came to 
the end of the session it was actually 
given a foremost place in the Queen s 
bpeech. Well, what is this charge of 
breach of faith ? That the Government 
of the Transvaal had given certain under- 
takings which entitled us to demand that 
they should grant the franchise to the 
Uitlanders. Sir, I believe a more base- 
less statement was never made. Certain 
words indeed were quoted from what the 
Leader of the House has called the proto- 
cols, but which are really the shorthand 
writer's notes of conversations ranging 
over the ^videst variety of topics, which 
preceded the conclusion of the Conven- 
tion of 1881. The allegation is that Pre- 
sident Kruger, on behalf of the Transvaal 
State, solemnly undertook to grant 
burgher rights to all white persons within 
the Transvaal, and that it was in respect 
of that promise that the Convention was 
concluded. Now, if that was the essential 
condition on which the Convention was 
concluded there would surely have been 
some trace of it in the correspondence. 
What do we find ? In the instructions 

S'ven to the Chief Commissioner, Sir 
ercules Robinson, and the other Com- 
missioners before they entered into that 
conference there is not a single word 
about the franchise. All that is referred 
to is equality in reganl to trading 
and taxation. That is tolerably clear 
evidence that the Government of this 
country attached no great importance 
to this matter at that time. When we 
come to the negotiations themselves, there 
is only a single casual reference in the 
whole of these conversations, extending 
over twenty or twenty-five days, as to 
the matter, and, l)e it observed, this 
reference is not made by the Chief Com- 
missioner. Sir Hercules Robinson never 
mentioned the word franchise, never 
mentioned the words "burgher rights," 
never mentioned the words " equality of 
privileges." He simply asked whether 
complete freedom of tra<^^le did not prevail 
in the Transvaal ; whether British sub- 
jects were not on the same footing as 
other citizens of the Transvaal; and 
whether the existing state of things would 
continue. Sir Evelyn Wood interjected, 
** and equal privileges," but Sir Hercules 
Robinson turned the conversation to the 
question of equal trading. Does that 
look as if it were a solemn obligation 
imposed on the Transvaal as a condition 

Third Day, 



323 Address in Answer to {COMMONS} the Queen's Spee/^k 324 



upon which independence should be 
granted 1 Sir, the position is, in fact, 
perfectly untenable. But that is not all. 
This conversation, for whatever it may 
be worth, took place before the conclusion 
of the Convention of 1881. Now, it it 
was good for anything, it bound the 
Transvaal to maintain the condition of 
things which prevailed in 1881. That 



have never had any facts. We have 
never been told in what particular way 
the individual Uitlander has been made 
to suffer, how his life has been made 
intolerable, how the iron heel of oppres- 
sion has entered into his soul. All these 
statements are mere rhetorical gener- 
alities. I venture to say that something 
more serious is required in order to 



condition was that a man entering justify those who are responsible for the 
the Transvaal should be naturalised with- Government of this country and for the 
in a year, or, if he had landed property, I direction of this mighty Empire, in bring- 
in less than a year. The first change in | ing power to bear upon a small and 
the franchise law of the Transvaal was , defenceless people. But what are the 
not made, as has been said by the Colo- grievances of the Uitlanders in the Trans- 
nial Secretary, after the Convention of j vaal 1 Let hon. Gentlemen on the 
London. It was made the very year ' opposite side get up and tell us what 



after the Convention of Pretoria, in 1882, 
and in that year the period of qualifica- 
tioH was raised from one year to five 
years. Therefore, whatever breach of 
understanding, or undertaking, took place 
took place in 1882. Well, if there was a 
breach of solemn undertaking, that breach 
took place in 1882, and we are asked to 



those terrible grievances are, and in what 
respect the Uitlanders are helots. I 
should be very much surprised if anyone 
could tell us exactly in what way these 
men have suffered any oppression which 
can for a moment be called intoler-^ 
able. We do not